The steak and hamburger rationale - is there a cure?

[luvstarved]

Hi folks,

 

I have not been on in a while, work took over my life for a while...

 

For those who know my story, a quick update. We are making progress, still in counseling, empathy level from H has increased and sex has gotten better...but still not quite as good as it could be...mostly lacking is the true intimacy, taking our time, and being able to talk about it...but H seems to be a lot more into the notion now and doesn't act like it's a dang chore, and accordingly, I have been nicer to him and we are both having better "end results".

 

But we were having a conversation the other day, don't remember how it started..probably something about my "jealousy"...but he was talking about how most guys are subject to the steak vs hamburger thing...you know, no matter how delicious the meal is at home, once in a while they are inclined to crave something different. How even supermodels get cheated on blah blah blah.

 

This is part of what makes me wish I were a lesbian because I have to admit that this seems to be the mindset of the majority of males I have known, and I have known plenty at all socioeconomic levels and circumstances.

 

And it has a LOT to do with my so-called "jealousy". Just that knowledge that no matter what I am, how good I look, how intelligent, how caring, how much fun, how open-minded, in the end I will end up being less sexually interesting than just about every other woman on the planet for not being the one single thing I can never ever be: someone else.

 

I have seen in a variety of publications articles about the difference between men and women and how men have this natural biological wiring to be stimulated by variety, etc. and have been dismayed at having seen many personal anecdotes from men jumping all over this rationalization. It's their NATURE! They can't HELP it! Monogamy is not natural!

 

Of course, women are described as more nurturing, family oriented, etc and being more wired to seek emotional support with sex not being this all-consuming pattern of thought that it is with males.

 

I am sorry, but I HATE this about men if it is really true, as it seems to be from my experience (that does not mean that I have been cheated on, as far as I know I have not).

 

First of all, the steak and hamburger thing suggests that women are pieces of meat...delicious meals to be consumed and then forgotten about until the guy is hungry again and that right there turns me off big time. With my H, this has reared its ugly head in multiple ways...first our sexless years and now this lack of going where I want to go sexually.

 

He has made statements like, "the honeymoon is over, so what I have lustful thoughts about other women, I don't actually want to be with them, sex is not that important, especially at our age (late 40s), it'll never be that passionate again, but I have "contentment""...but then on the other hand, he avoids talking about sex or trying new things! I totally believe in the ability to RECAPTURE passion. But it seems he has to believe it, too, and just can't or won't.

 

I told him in this conversation that it was normal to have peaks and valleys but the way he talked about it, it wasn't peak-valley-peak-valley, but peak-valley-abyss.

 

I also told him that one time after a friend couple I knew broke up, the H said to me "well, the sex was just so BORING" and that I just looked him right in the eye and said "well you must not have tried very hard". That shut HIM up.

 

But, I feel like I don't know whether I should continue to fight this fight or just accept the fact that nothing on earth could make me as appealing as a food he's never tried before...

 

Listen, I could accept the "inclination" if it were coupled with some attempt to not act like "it's just the way it is" which is how he seems to feel. Like he is making some huge sacrifice by only f**king me and I should be grateful for it.

 

What do you guys think? I totally understand looking occasionally and fantasizing, heck even I do that...but I cannot seem to curb my jealousy (which I actually don't think is extreme at all since it has always been in direct response to something external that he said or did) while thinking that somewhere in his mind he is firm in the belief that our sex life will never be that great and it is because I am not someone else. That the natural state of things is to him to have sex with me, while his sexual INTERESTS are confined to other people.

 

I mean, the truth is, I find our sex life a bit boring too, but I see where we could DO something about it if we could only be open to new things, be more playful, etc but he just doesn't seem to want to go there, and when I try to talk about it, he says I am creating problems where none exist, that I want him to jump through hoops and expect him to sweep me off my feet, that that phase is over, that I am being aggressive, demanding, unreasonable, emotionally disturbed...well, we have sex the same way, the same times, almost like a schedule to take medicine, with no foreplay, afterplay or any variety of any sort, and over with always in about 5 minutes.

 

Is it unreasonable to want something more FUN, more playful, more intimate? I don't think so. I don't know whether he is feeling some kind of performance pressure and doesn't really understand what I am looking for, or if he just doesn't believe that it could ever be any better just because we've been together so long...if the former, then it is worth fighting for, but if he is just never going to try, then why should I?

 

I have never been accused of being lousy in bed. With this awkward distance between us in this realm, I have not tried like I used to and concede I could be coming across that way now, but even he said our sex life was fantastic in the beginning.

 

I just don't know how to proceed from here. Guys anything you can think of that would dissuade you from feeling that the only thing that could possibly REALLY excite you would be...someone new? Assuming you felt that way...

[Tony T]

You are invited to read about this problem, commonly known as the Coolidge Effect, by going here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolidge_effect

 

It has nothing to do with you. It's how males are wired. In the time line of history, marriage and sexual loyalty is very, very new to the scene. For most of the many millions of years preceding, males have been free to deposit their sperm with as many females as they had time to see. It still happens that way in some animal forms.

 

Since in the last few thousand years we have civilized somewhat, it may take evolution a number of future cycles to get most human males to the point where they are not programmed to roam and deposit their genetic material at will.

 

I hope the above link helps a little. Otherwise, you have to find a man who can control his urges. Remember, sex itself is an evolutionary urge and if that is coupled with the need to spread the seed...you have trouble in this modern age.

[Mustang Sally]

Well.

 

They may be hardwired to "look around," but there IS such a thing as being an ASSH9LE about it. And it sounds like your H is being one.

 

Not unlike something my H did to me several months ago...take a look at my thread if you are curious..."Ouch Not sure where to go from here...."

[SincereOnlineGuy]

Hi folks,

 

he was talking about how most guys are subject to the steak vs hamburger thing...you know, no matter how delicious the meal is at home, once in a while they are inclined to crave something different. How even supermodels get cheated on blah blah blah.

 

This is part of what makes me wish I were a lesbian because I have to admit that this seems to be the mindset of the majority of males I have known, and I have known plenty at all socioeconomic levels and circumstances.

 

And it has a LOT to do with my so-called "jealousy". Just that knowledge that no matter what I am, how good I look, how intelligent, how caring, how much fun, how open-minded, in the end I will end up being less sexually interesting than just about every other woman on the planet for not being the one single thing I can never ever be: someone else.

 

I have seen in a variety of publications articles about the difference between men and women and how men have this natural biological wiring to be stimulated by variety, etc. and have been dismayed at having seen many personal anecdotes from men jumping all over this rationalization. It's their NATURE! They can't HELP it! Monogamy is not natural!

 

I am sorry, but I HATE this about men if it is really true, as it seems to be from my experience (that does not mean that I have been cheated on, as far as I know I have not).

 

 

But, I feel like I don't know whether I should continue to fight this fight or just accept the fact that nothing on earth could make me as appealing as a food he's never tried before...

 

 

What do you guys think? I totally understand looking occasionally and fantasizing, heck even I do that...but I cannot seem to curb my jealousy

 

I am creating problems where none exist, that I want him to jump through hoops and expect him to sweep me off my feet, that that phase is over, that I am being aggressive, demanding, unreasonable, emotionally disturbed...well, we have sex the same way, the same times, almost like a schedule to take medicine, with no foreplay, afterplay or any variety of any sort, and over with always in about 5 minutes.

 

Is it unreasonable to want something more FUN, more playful, more intimate? I don't think so.

 

I just don't know how to proceed from here. Guys anything you can think of that would dissuade you from feeling that the only thing that could possibly REALLY excite you would be...someone new? Assuming you felt that way...

 

 

 

(a) Yes, "even supermodels get cheated on (**by people like themselves who were raised in an environment where infidelity was the best answer for everything)

 

(b) Your jealousy will eat you alive

 

© Stop reading those stupid magazines! Didn't you ever notice that while they claim to have all of the answers, they still find some other bullsh*t to publish 12 times annually? Why? - because you keep buying it (the issue and the bullsh*t).

 

(d) Men are stimulated by variety... but that has nothing at all to do with monogamy or a lack of it. If you put your naked breasts in your avatar, and we had nothing at all to compare them with, they would be faaaaaaaaar less attractive to us than they are when we have something to compare them to. It's that simple. You said that even you yourself look on occasion, so instead of turning on the jealousy when we do, take the opposite approach and engage us on the subjects of our gaze/attention... and let us express sincerely when you do. (the best defense (for your feelings) is a great offense)

 

(e) You are creating problems all right, but I don't think it can be said that none exist there.

 

(f) No foreplay?? - ouch !!

 

 

 

What happens in such a situation as when the two of you look at online porn together? or, heaven forbid, go to a strip club together?

[michaelk]

I am sorry, but I HATE this about men if it is really true, as it seems to be from my experience (that does not mean that I have been cheated on, as far as I know I have not).

 

It really is true. And your hate of this fact comes from your own biological wiring, which gives you the desire for monogamy, your protectiveness over your marriage, and ultimately your jealousy.

 

First of all, the steak and hamburger thing suggests that women are pieces of meat...delicious meals to be consumed and then forgotten about until the guy is hungry again and that right there turns me off big time.

This analogy isn't meant to say that we think of women as meat. It draws a comparison between something you have every day (hamburger/wife) and something you get to have only on special occasions (steak/other woman).

 

What do you guys think? I totally understand looking occasionally and fantasizing, heck even I do that...but I cannot seem to curb my jealousy (which I actually don't think is extreme at all since it has always been in direct response to something external that he said or did) while thinking that somewhere in his mind he is firm in the belief that our sex life will never be that great and it is because I am not someone else. That the natural state of things is to him to have sex with me, while his sexual INTERESTS are confined to other people.

I have first-hand experience with this, and I know exactly how your H feels. There is good news and bad news here. The bad news is that you cannot eliminate his desire to be with other women. The good news is that you may be able to lessen the likelihood that he will act on that desire.

 

In my case, my W was the one who wanted to stick with the sexual status quo. For reasons I won't go into here, she wasn't really enjoying the sex and so had no real interest in it. I was profoundly unsatisfied. Once we addressed her enjoyment issues, things became very different. Suddenly she wanted to try new things, even things I had suggested in the past which she had flatly refused to do. This completely changed my attitude toward sex with her. Yes, she is still the same woman, and yes I do still think about being with others. But my desire to act on that is gone, because I'm doing the things I fantasized about, and I have a willing and even enthusiastic partner to do them with.

 

Point #1: If your husband is bored because he feels he can't fulfill his sexual desires with you, you can fix that. You both have to be willing, though. You have to embrace doing some of the things he wants, and he has to be open to you as a sexual being.

 

The other thing that helps us deal with my male impulses is openness. If my eye wanders, it's not a problem because my W is okay with me looking as long as it's discreet. Often we will talk about women we see when we're out ("Wow, did you see her breasts? Do you think those are real?"). And she has always been supportive of me enjoying pornography, and when I find something particularly arousing I share it with her.

 

Point #2: Take the sting out his desire to look by embracing it. He will no longer feel like he has to hide his thoughts from you for fear of you becoming jealous, and more importantly he will feel that he can be more open and intimate with you in general. Although it seems counter-intuitive, you can actually bring him closer by 'letting go' a little.

 

These are the things that have worked in my marriage. If we didn't have them, I would have left by now. I hope they help you, too.

[Curmudgeon]

 

He has made statements like, "the honeymoon is over, so what I have lustful thoughts about other women, I don't actually want to be with them, sex is not that important, especially at our age (late 40s), it'll never be that passionate again, but I have "contentment""...

 

I just don't know how to proceed from here. Guys anything you can think of that would dissuade you from feeling that the only thing that could possibly REALLY excite you would be...someone new? Assuming you felt that way...

 

First of all, tell him to get over his ageism. I'm in my 60s and my wife will enter hers next year. Our sex life is still excellent, stimulating, adventuresome, fun and satisfying. I'll settle for mere "contentment" when I assume room temperature and not before.

 

What dissuades me from even thinking about "someone new" are such things as love, commitment, friendship, vows, integrity, morals, to name a few. My wife excites me and always has. That's one of the reasons I asked her to marry me 11 years ago after five years of friendship.

 

Please note, the excitement isn't all merely physical. She's my intellectual, spiritual, educational, professional equal (although now retired) and not only is that precisely what I wanted but also what I find very stimulating.

[whichwayisup]

A long, long time ago...One of my ex's (boyfriend at the time) said to me once "You can't have steak every night." That was the first time I ever slapped anyone across the face.

 

And yes, I was cheated upon.

[lost4ever]

Did you tell him at least he gets hamburger when you are stuck with a weenie everynight?

[luvstarved]

Thanks for responses. I just want to clarify that my H has never cheated on me and I do not believe that he would. He has even said that he would be afraid to.

 

Most of his sex life prior to me was "self-servicing". He never had a LTR before me. Some of the situation now seems like I shot myself in the foot, when he rejected me sexually while masturbating a lot, I did get pretty jealous, feeling like his sexual energy was devoted to other women, even if it was all mental.

 

I have to admit that lately he has shown much more enthusiasm, even giving the occasional "wow" after but there is still something missing, and that is intimacy. Tonight he denied being in the steak/hamburger category.

 

He basically feels very insulted that he thinks I think of him as some rabid snatch-hound. I do not think that. What I think is that he believes that we will never have passion again and it is unrealistic for me to expect it and that the only real sexual excitement available to him is to fantasize about other women on occasion, and that this is normal and harmless and I am supposed to be grateful that he does not take these urges beyond his mind and some quiet alone time in the bathroom. That he believes, well, we are having sex, sex that is as good as it can be between two people who are so old and have been together so long and that my attempts to talk about it are just further attacks/accusations/demands for flowery romance and mind blowing sex.

 

As for this Coolidge effect, well I read that in primates, females are also prone to this. So you'd think that would be even more true in humans. I have to admit that I wonder whether his "much lower number" of past partners makes a difference. I had a wild youth and many partners and was definitely at a point in my life attracted to variety. But enough already, I feel like I have been there done all that and now that all seems kind of icky and I have zero interest in other men. Maybe I would also be subject to this still if I had been around the block fewer times, who knows?

 

Bottom line, I want him to think like Curmudgeon, that passion and great sex could still be for us, and I think that we could have that if he would only open up. I just CANNOT make that happen and am just...discouraged.

 

For the record, I have tried spicing it up and he almost acts like I am being perverted or something. He JUST does not want to go there, so it isn't like I am not giving him what he wants. I don't KNOW what he wants and he won't tell me. Presumably, he wants only someone different and since he can't have that, there is nothing to talk about.

[norajane]

For the record, I have tried spicing it up and he almost acts like I am being perverted or something. He JUST does not want to go there, so it isn't like I am not giving him what he wants. I don't KNOW what he wants and he won't tell me.

Maybe it's that madonna/whore syndrome thing. He can fantasize about other women and make it as dirty as he wants in his head, but you - as his wife - are more 'pure', so he can't get into the more spicy stuff with you.

 

Or maybe - as a man in his late 40's - his libido is diminishing and he just doesn't care to get all into sex anymore.

 

Was it EVER passionate and wild and crazy between you? Or has it always been kinda like it is, more or less?

[michaelk]

Maybe it's that madonna/whore syndrome thing. He can fantasize about other women and make it as dirty as he wants in his head, but you - as his wife - are more 'pure', so he can't get into the more spicy stuff with you.

 

This is a good possibility. After many years together, my wife and I ended up in a very comfortable relationship. We were close, but more in a familial way, without the passion. Not to be weird, but she felt more like a sister to me than anything else, and so I had a hard time seeing her as 'sexy' or opening up to her about my fantasies and desires.

 

Perhaps this is where the OP's H finds himself.

 

Oh, and I had only one sexual partner before my wife, so I can tell you that this does indeed lead to some second-guessing when you reach middle age.

[Mustang Sally]

After many years together, my wife and I ended up in a very comfortable relationship. We were close, but more in a familial way, without the passion. Not to be weird, but she felt more like a sister to me than anything else, and so I had a hard time seeing her as 'sexy' or opening up to her about my fantasies and desires.

So what did you do about that, michaelk?

[michaelk]

So what did you do about that, michaelk?

 

I was saying that I (possibly) understand the H's perspective - not that I have the answer. What I did I wouldn't recommend to anyone unless they are ready to seriously risk their marriage, so I'm not going to put it out there as a solution.

 

Suffice it to say that when we get stuck in a rut in life, sometimes it takes dynamite to blast us out of it.

[luvstarved]

I imagine you are right about the quality of your solution, michael...

 

Like I said I do not think my H would cheat, even our counselor said "he is not built that way"...my frustration is in wondering whether he just doesn't know how to rekindle a spark, whether he just mistakenly THINKS the spark cannot be reignited, or if in fact, given the whole package of him, it is true that in this case, the spark is loooong gone and for good. I wish I knew! The sex has definitely improved but at our longevity and age, it should be very free and open and wonderful...

 

We had counseling today and talked positively about the whole getting along better and being more mutually respectful parts, which ARE true, and I said, yes it is great to crawl out of the abyss, but now I would like to take a stroll in paradise! He asked me which of the "intimacy components" (emotional, intellectual, etc) I thought needed the most work and I piped right up with "sex and romance". So we were given homework to talk about that and see what we could do to at least communicate on that subject. We'll see. So far it has just been a ridiculously touchy (ironically) topic...

[luvstarved]

I was saying that I (possibly) understand the H's perspective - not that I have the answer. What I did I wouldn't recommend to anyone unless they are ready to seriously risk their marriage, so I'm not going to put it out there as a solution.

 

Suffice it to say that when we get stuck in a rut in life, sometimes it takes dynamite to blast us out of it.

 

Ah, I meant to ask: was it ever repaired?

[michaelk]

Like I said I do not think my H would cheat, even our counselor said "he is not built that way"...my frustration is in wondering whether he just doesn't know how to rekindle a spark, whether he just mistakenly THINKS the spark cannot be reignited, or if in fact, given the whole package of him, it is true that in this case, the spark is loooong gone and for good. I wish I knew!

 

Hmmmm... Reading this made me wonder whether your H has self-esteem problems. What is your take on this?

 

We had counseling today and talked positively about the whole getting along better and being more mutually respectful parts, which ARE true, and I said, yes it is great to crawl out of the abyss, but now I would like to take a stroll in paradise! He asked me which of the "intimacy components" (emotional, intellectual, etc) I thought needed the most work and I piped right up with "sex and romance". So we were given homework to talk about that and see what we could do to at least communicate on that subject. We'll see. So far it has just been a ridiculously touchy (ironically) topic...

This is actually great news. As so many people here will tell you, communication is the key. My W and I benefited from couples therapy, and we find that things improve every time we talk openly - even though it can be painful at times. But when it is painful, it can lead to some nice make-up sex!

 

Ah, I meant to ask: was it ever repaired?

Yes, but it's an ongoing process. We work at it because if we didn't, we would slip back into the old, comfortable, dysfunctional behaviors that got us in trouble in the first place. And we have both chosen to take the attitude that the present is where we exist, and we do our best to set aside the past and make the present as good as we can.

[luvstarved]

Hmmmm... Reading this made me wonder whether your H has self-esteem problems. What is your take on this?

 

This is actually great news. As so many people here will tell you, communication is the key. My W and I benefited from couples therapy, and we find that things improve every time we talk openly - even though it can be painful at times. But when it is painful, it can lead to some nice make-up sex!

 

Yes, but it's an ongoing process. We work at it because if we didn't, we would slip back into the old, comfortable, dysfunctional behaviors that got us in trouble in the first place. And we have both chosen to take the attitude that the present is where we exist, and we do our best to set aside the past and make the present as good as we can.

 

Michaelk, I am glad to hear that you and your W have hung in there and worked on it, as my H and I are trying to do. I have definitely found that there have been areas of massive misunderstanding with my H and I that went on for years and have begun to dissipate through simple acts of listening with a spirit of empathy. I am hoping that it is true also with the sex issues.

 

Time will tell. I am REALLY loathe to try to bring it up AGAIN but I also know it has to happen. He does have self-esteem issues but would never admit it, his walls are so high...he is a very good looking guy and very good with technical aspects of sex...just needs to loosen up and feel the love a bit more...he did live with Mom and Dad til he was 38 so he is a little inexperienced in some of the nuts and bolts life stuff...but he is trying and I remain hopeful...thanks for your encouragement

[Cobra_X30]

Hi LS,

 

I just want to say Hamburger and Steak... sounds more to me like Bull***** and Onions!

 

Any guy who loves himself, has decent self esteem... doesnt need to constantly fantasize about other women!

[michaelk]

He does have self-esteem issues but would never admit it, his walls are so high...he is a very good looking guy and very good with technical aspects of sex...just needs to loosen up and feel the love a bit more...he did live with Mom and Dad til he was 38 so he is a little inexperienced in some of the nuts and bolts life stuff...

 

The following is all speculation (I'm no therapist) based somewhat on my own experiences. It could be way off, but here goes.

 

He lived with his parents until he was 38, he didn't have much sexual experience before you, and even your counselor feels he would never cheat on you because "he is not built that way". I suspect there are major self-esteem issues at work here, and he probably harbors regrets about his lack of sexual experiences before you two met. This can aggravate things now that he's become bored and is losing sexual interest in you because being with the same woman after so many years just reminds him that he never got to "sow his oats".

 

What's more, his "walls are so high" that even you, his wife, don't get to see everything that's going on. Clearly a certain degree of emotional intimacy is lacking. If he's not comfortable enough with you to show you what's really going on inside, then you have a tougher road ahead of you. My W and I kept walls up for many years because we were each afraid of what the other might think. That nearly destroyed our relationship. Part of going to therapy together has to be about opening up completely. And not until you address these emotional intimacy issues will there be room for major progress in other areas (i.e. sex). Why? Because it sounds like even if he did have sexual fantasies/fetishes he'd like to try out, he wouldn't feel comfortable doing them with you lest he be judged. This is one way that low self-esteem can manifest. You hide your real thoughts and desires from everyone because you "know" they will think you're a "bad person" if they find out the truth.

 

I hope some of this resonates with you. If so, maybe it will give you a new angle from which to try solving your problems.

 

Best wishes!

 

MK

[luvstarved]

Yes, michaelk, a lot of that resonates.

 

He had a fair amount of sexual experience, he gave his number at about 15 or 16 in our "number talk" early on...he was not shy sexually when we met...he honestly is very handsome and goes to gym so is muscular, and very athletic...that is part of my jealousy too bc women check HIM out a lot...BUT he did not have any emotional intimacy before and I do think that until me he did to a large extent think of women as sex objects, although he never said so and knew better intellectually - I think it was there. He still does not have emotional intimacy as it should be, but he is emotionally invested...

 

In the past I think he just bailed when it got emotional because WTH boredom was setting in anyway...I am not sure but think that his longest R before me was maybe 3 months. Once he said to me, why do you insist on talking about sex? I never had to have these kind of talks before...and I am like, and have you been with same woman for 10 years before?

 

In between he was happy to masturbate and 'avoid the hassle' (he's also said he had preferred doing that to putting up with a crappy relationship).

 

So, I do think he is somewhat immature...he had substance abuse (alcohol) problems in late teens and early twenties which I think stunted his emotional growth. Mom and Dad being too happy to just keep treating him like a teenaged son just exacerbated it.

 

He has never struck me as a womanizer or porn hound - he did look at porn in sexless phase but not since. It isn't that what I think he is doing is excessive wrt fantasies...it is that he is not seeing ME that way and working toward refocusing his sexual thoughts to me...and my fear that he cannot or will not...

 

Sounds like you have been handling things well in your M, hope it continues. My H is a very spiritual and counseling-friendly and all that so I do feel his heart is in right place...but we so far cannot talk about it.

 

The part about self-esteem and walls totally rings true. Fearing that if the real him is exposed, he will be ridiculed and judged. Which I can see his point but...that's when the trust has to be there.

 

Damn, this is hard...

[Trialbyfire]

luvstarved, the two of you have progressed quite a ways, in a very short time. I think it's time to relax, keep working on the existing intimacy issues and then worry about next steps, such as adventurous sex.

 

As for his wayward mind, you can't change that unless you change the intimacy issues. Even then, most men will fantasize.

[michaelk]

Yes, michaelk, a lot of that resonates.

 

He had a fair amount of sexual experience, he gave his number at about 15 or 16 in our "number talk" early on...

 

Damn, this is hard...

 

Sorry I got the part about his sexual inexperience wrong. I thought I read that, but must have imagined it! Still, I'm glad that some of what I said makes sense.

 

And yes, it is hard - if you're doing it right. Just remember that you're doing what's best for your relationship even though it's difficult, and that there are others who have gone there too, so you're not alone.

[Mustang Sally]

It really is true. And your hate of this fact comes from your own biological wiring, which gives you the desire for monogamy, your protectiveness over your marriage, and ultimately your jealousy.

Hmmm.

 

Well, I've had my kids (four of them) and I'm done with that now.

 

What do you make of the fact that I've (a WOMAN) wanted to f*ck the brains out of some other men, michaelk?

I've been anything but protective of my marriage the last 6 months. In fact, I asked my H to move out. I often would prefer to be single and self-sufficient.

How does that fit into the "biological design"?

 

I think we (humankind) may have evolved to become a bit more complex than this simple explanation: men want variety, women want monogamy.

 

It also disregards the effect of societal pressures and norms. (Which vary from culture to culture, obviously.)

 

To put it another way...I think individuals have choices to make.

Men and women both.

Certainly there are undeniable biological differences between the genders, but I do not think, at our current level of development as a species, that it is as simple as you imply.

[woodsfield]

i prefer deep fried chicken. i get it most every night and it is finger lickin' good.

 

i know, i know....i am comparing women to a meal, but there are ways to spice up your love life, if that is what is needed. maybe the word "spice" should have been used.

 

i hope you can work this out with him. it sounds like it is up to the BOTH of you. i hate that this is hurting you so.

 

good luck.

[michaelk]

What do you make of the fact that I've (a WOMAN) wanted to f*ck the brains out of some other men, michaelk?

 

To put it another way...I think individuals have choices to make.

Men and women both.

Certainly there are undeniable biological differences between the genders, but I do not think, at our current level of development as a species, that it is as simple as you imply.

 

Yes, I over-generalized. I don't think it invalidates my point, though.

 

Generalizations can be very useful in trying to understand the world around us, but of course reality is never black and white. There is a spectrum of behavior out there from masculine to feminine and everything in between. I am not a "macho man", and my W would be the first to call herself a "tomboy". None of this, however, changes the fact than men and women overall have different biologies, especially where mating is concerned, and at some level we cannot escape them.

 

I became a strong believer in the power of nature (vs. nurture), by the way, recently when I had kids. I have a 6 y.o. girl and a 3 y.o. boy, and we have been very gender-neutral with them, encouraging them not to treat certain activities as "boys" or "girls". Despite this, there are many aspects of them that emerged seemingly spontaneously which would be considered stereotypical gender behavior. So although I still believe that environment is important, I have revised my ideas about how much power biology has.

 

Is some portion of masculine/feminine behavior cultural? Of course. If we treated men and women exactly the same from birth, would we all act the same? No. Most men would still have an uncontrollable impulse to stare at women as they walk by, size up every woman they meet as a potential sex partner, and think about sex with a variety of women. But not all of them. And some women would have these behaviors, too.

 

Now, you assert that we as individuals have choices to make. Obviously true. The part that is unclear is just how much of our mating behavior this applies to. Can a man will away his desire to be with women other than his mate? I think the answer is 'no' for most of us. Can he choose to channel it into fantasies and porn instead of cheating? I think so. And this is how we use our rational selves to adapt to being in a monogamous culture, even though our natural impulse may not be monogamous.