johan Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 This is off-topic as well but ok, I'll indulge you for a minute. It's not a matter of a "better" friend but it was more a matter of which one I felt closest too. It's that simple. Since I had to choose, which I shouldn't have put myself in that position in the first place, and for that I was wrong, I had to go with the one I had the closer relationship with. As for the other friend understanding. I doubt that friend does. But what can I do but just hope that my actions were understood and not meant to intentionally hurt. Anyway, I have a feeling that that friend never took me too seriously anyway..hence my choosing the other friend. (Did you get all that?) I got it. Maybe I can paraphrase, and you can help me check my understanding: You can't have two friends. And even though you deeply care about someone, when someone you feel closer to comes along, you do have to move on. You always move on when something better comes along right? Your friends should count on that. Just like when you find someone you like better, you should, for instance, feel free to share personal correspondences you've had with other friends with that person. I mean those good close friends don't come along very often, and all is fair in friendship. Unintentional, of course, but whatever it takes to get close and prove yourself. I agree with you. You probably were never taken seriously. I know I'm not taking you seriously, because you're making weak excuses for bad behavior. Or is it bad excuses for weak behavior. Do you wonder if those who know what your close friendships are founded on take you seriously? When you sell one friend for another, do you wonder if they wonder?
Touche Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 I got it. Maybe I can paraphrase, and you can help me check my understanding: Happy to. You can't have two friends. Yes, I can have two friends...but not two friends who are each leaning on me and venting about things that have to do with the other. Can you not understand that? It's the same with lawyers...look up conflict of interest. And even though you deeply care about someone, when someone you feel closer to comes along, you do have to move on. You always move on when something better comes along right? Your friends should count on that. Just like when you find someone you like better, you should, for instance, feel free to share personal correspondences you've had with other friends with that person. I mean those good close friends don't come along very often, and all is fair in friendship. Unintentional, of course, but whatever it takes to get close and prove yourself. First of all I didn't care "deeply" about the other friend, obviously. Yes, I cared but only to a certain degree. So let's not get assumptive there. Secondly, no. I don't always move on when something better comes along. And I already stated that it wasn't a matter of "better" but more a matter of who I felt a closer connection to. The person who gave as much as they took from me. Because the first friend just mainly took...didn't give much back truthfully. As for sharing personal correspondences...well maybe that wasn't the wisest thing to do but once I severed the friendship I no longer felt honor bound to keep our correspondences confidential. It had nothing to do with getting close and proving myself at all. At that point I think I had already proven myself to be a friend and the bond we shared had already been established before that. And that's right...people I connect with on the level that I connect with the friend that I "chose" don't come along every day at all. They're indeed VERY, very rare in my experience. I'm not making excuses. Perhaps sharing confidential correspondences was not the right thing to do but at the time I thought it would help my friend so I did that to help her and not for any other reason. Right or wrong, I did it with good intentions. I agree with you. You probably were never taken seriously. I know I'm not taking you seriously, because you're making weak excuses for bad behavior. Or is it bad excuses for weak behavior. Do you wonder if those who know what your close friendships are founded on take you seriously? When you sell one friend for another, do you wonder if they wonder? I'm not interested in whether you take me seriously or not, Johan. I'm not here to seek your approval. I'm fine with myself and my choices. I'm not making any excuses for my behavior. I stand by everything I've done and take full accountability for what I've done wrong. Believe it or not, (and I'm sure you do) I'm not a perfect person. I'm flawed just like everyone here. And no, I never wonder if my friend wonders whether I'd sell her out. I've never "sold" anyone out...I simply made a choice. And this friend knows I would never do anything to intentionally hurt her. I can't guarantee that I never will hurt her...I'm human and humans sometimes hurt each other. But I think she knows me well enough to know that I would never betray her. Any more questions?
Trialbyfire Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 A good, solid friendship is based on trust, respect, caring, with a healthy dose of give and take of all three components. When only one side gives, what happens in any form of relationship, friendship or otherwise, is that the balanced scale tips and there's dissolution. To draw the parallel by using a phrase coined by someone I once knew: "Relationships are a risky business". You might want to consider these words carefully.
Author johan Posted October 13, 2007 Author Posted October 13, 2007 I don't personally think friends do that kind of thing to each other. This person couldn't have been your friend, Touche. Are you sure you were friends? And I agree with you TBF. Relationships are risky. But this kind of thing doesn't really happen in adult friendships does it? I mean how often do you really have to choose between two friends? Love relationships have more risk in them, because the level of commitment and involvement can't be allowed to fluctuate, and because there is more on the line. But friendships are more fluid. Closer and then not so close. I don't think what Touche had can be defined as a friendship. So when she says she lost a "friendship", I'd have to question that. I think she just decided to betray an acquaintance, someone she admits she didn't really care about. No big deal. Those are actions you can stand by with little weight on your conscience.
Touche Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 I don't personally think friends do that kind of thing to each other. This person couldn't have been your friend, Touche. Are you sure you were friends? And I agree with you TBF. Relationships are risky. But this kind of thing doesn't really happen in adult friendships does it? I mean how often do you really have to choose between two friends? Love relationships have more risk in them, because the level of commitment and involvement can't be allowed to fluctuate, and because there is more on the line. But friendships are more fluid. Closer and then not so close. I don't think what Touche had can be defined as a friendship. So when she says she lost a "friendship", I'd have to question that. I think she just decided to betray an acquaintance, someone she admits she didn't really care about. No big deal. Those are actions you can stand by with little weigh. Well if we were never friends then the whole question is a moot one now isn't it? I also want to say that you're quite naive to think that this kind of thing doesn't happen in adult friendships. It sure does. Happens all the time. In this particular instance, I made a mistake by allowing myself to get in the middle. I would never do that again. I realize my mistake there. And stop changing my words. I didn't say I didn't care. I said I didn't care "deeply." You keep putting words in my mouth. I think you're making too much of this. I didn't commit a crime. Maybe I hurt someone who may or may not have been a friend. Haven't you ever hurt anyone? Are you really that perfect? Wow, you must have TONS of friends, right? Lucky you...some of us aren't that lucky or that perfect I guess. Some of us are flawed. Some of us are human.
Trialbyfire Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 And I agree with you TBF. Relationships are risky. But this kind of thing doesn't really happen in adult friendships does it? I mean how often do you really have to choose between two friends? Love relationships have more risk in them, because the level of commitment and involvement can't be allowed to fluctuate, and because there is more on the line. But friendships are more fluid. Closer and then not so close. I disagree. I see friendship in a different way than you do where I'm a very caring person with the people who are close to me. If my loyalties fall with one friend over another and the first friend will not see reason, I will back that person to the wall, whatever it takes. It's a matter of credibility, sincerity and honest caring, not a matter of maturity. Sometimes you have to make a choice. Sitting on the fence isn't always the best way to live your life.
Author johan Posted October 13, 2007 Author Posted October 13, 2007 I think you're making too much of this. I didn't commit a crime. Maybe I hurt someone who may or may not have been a friend. Haven't you ever hurt anyone? Are you really that perfect? Wow, you must have TONS have friends, right? Lucky you...some of us aren't that lucky or that perfect I guess. Some of us are flawed. Some of us are human. Hey, you know what? You're right. I'm sorry I brought it up. I think you've explained yourself pretty well. I absolve you on behalf of that person you were never friends with. I'm sure that person feels better.
Author johan Posted October 13, 2007 Author Posted October 13, 2007 I disagree. I see friendship in a different way than you do where I'm a very caring person with the people who are close to me. If my loyalties fall with one friend over another and the first friend will not see reason, I will back that person to the wall, whatever it takes. It's a matter of credibility, sincerity and honest caring, not a matter of maturity. Sometimes you have to make a choice. Sitting on the fence isn't always the best way to live your life. Can you be clear, please? Who are you backing to the wall? The one you're loyal to or the one you aren't? I assume you're loyal to all of your friends. What kind of circumstances are we talking about where you'd have to make such a choice? Am I to assume that one of Touche's friends explicitly required her to sever her relationship with the other? The two friends wouldn't have been able to tolerate sharing her? What actually happened that put you in this dilemma anyway, Touche? What is it about the one friendship that made the other impossible?
Touche Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 Hey, you know what? You're right. I'm sorry I brought it up. I think you've explained yourself pretty well. I absolve you on behalf of that person you were never friends with. I'm sure that person feels better. I never said we weren't friends, again you've put your words into my mouth...YOU said we weren't friends. It's nice to be absolved though. Who doesn't like that, right? I hope that person/friend/acquaintance, whatever...really DOES feel better. I don't like to see anyone hurt. I really don't. Especially not as a result of my own actions.
Touche Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 Can you be clear, please? Who are you backing to the wall? The one you're loyal to or the one you aren't? I assume you're loyal to all of your friends. What kind of circumstances are we talking about where you'd have to make such a choice? Am I to assume that one of Touche's friends explicitly required her to sever her relationship with the other? The two friends wouldn't have been able to tolerate sharing her? What actually happened that put you in this dilemma anyway, Touche? What is it about the one friendship that made the other impossible? We've already covered that. See "conflict of interest." This happens all the time for instance, when two people divorce. Haven't you ever heard about this? Loyalties become divided. The couple had friends in common and when they split, the friends usually go with one or the other. In a nutshell that's what happened to me.
Author johan Posted October 13, 2007 Author Posted October 13, 2007 I never said we weren't friends. You kind of did though. You said you're a loyal friend. So you would have been loyal if this person was someone you considered a friend. So either you aren't really a loyal friend, or this person wasn't really your friend. Unless this person made demands on you that pushed you past the point where you're loyalty-bound. Is that what happened?
Trialbyfire Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 Can you be clear, please? Who are you backing to the wall? The one you're loyal to or the one you aren't? I assume you're loyal to all of your friends. What kind of circumstances are we talking about where you'd have to make such a choice? In attempting to negate my post, you show that you have no substantive point to debate the issue with. It must have been fairly obvious that the person I chose to back, will be the one I have loyalty with. As for circumstances, a divorce that's not amicable. This is a real life example.
Author johan Posted October 13, 2007 Author Posted October 13, 2007 We've already covered that. See "conflict of interest." This happens all the time for instance, when two people divorce. Haven't you ever heard about this? Loyalties become divided. The couple had friends in common and when they split, the friends usually go with one or the other. In a nutshell that's what happened to me. So one of the two friends told you that he/she couldn't remain friends with you as long as you were friends with the other? How did you know that the one friend had to go? How did you choose?
Author johan Posted October 13, 2007 Author Posted October 13, 2007 In attempting to negate my post, you show that you have no substantive point to debate the issue with. It must have been fairly obvious that the person I chose to back, will be the one I have loyalty with. As for circumstances, a divorce that's not amicable. This is a real life example. I have substantive points seething out of my fingertips. I can discuss this up one side of you and down the other, in crystal clear English, until I get what I want. And the only way I'll negate your posts is to pick them apart until we agree where the logic is, and where the logic isn't. I'm very interested in what "loyal friend" means in this case. Because no one likes to be betrayed, right? In any case, I've got what I want. You're off the hook, Touche. I suggest you try not to bring this up in public as if it's something you're proud of. If that former friend were to catch you, he or she would probably call you out on it. You have no idea how pissed that person might be at you.
Trialbyfire Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 I have substantive points seething out of my fingertips. I can discuss this up one side of you and down the other, in crystal clear English, until I get what I want. And the only way I'll negate your posts is to pick them apart until we agree where the logic is, and where the logic isn't. I'm very interested in what "loyal friend" means in this case. Because no one likes to be betrayed, right? Somehow, I doubt you could discuss this, to the level you claim... Did someone you care deeply about betray you or was it an acquaintance? You need to clarify this.
Touche Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 You kind of did though. You said you're a loyal friend. So you would have been loyal if this person was someone you considered a friend. So either you aren't really a loyal friend, or this person wasn't really your friend. Unless this person made demands on you that pushed you past the point where you're loyalty-bound. Is that what happened? No. I was a loyal friend to each person up until a certain point. It's not a question of either/or. The other person was a friend and I was loyal until I could no longer be. Yes, in a way I was pushed...but no, I ALLOWED myself to be pushed past a certain point where I felt I was becoming disloyal to the other friend. And that's when I needed to make a choice. I could no longer be friends with both. Does that make sense? And to answer your other question, no. No one forced me to choose. I felt that as long as I were to remain friends with BOTH that I'd end up being disloyal in a way to both. How did I choose? Well the only thing I had in common with the one friend that I chose to end the friendship with, was the fact that the only think we talked about was the other friend and their relationship. That was pretty much our only bond at that point. But the other friend and I had a bond that was a little broader than that. Does that make sense? It wasn't so focused on just one thing. I felt that there was nothing much to sustain the other friendship. It was one-dimensional. And it was completely reliant on my just being there to listen to him vent, analyze and discuss my other friend. And also, as I stated the friend that I had the closer friendship with ended up giving more of herself...she seemed to really care about ME and MY life and wasn't only focused on talking about her and her needs and her life and her issues and my other friend. She seemed just as willing to discuss things in my life. And not only that, I came to see that we were very much alike in many ways. Our personalities are similar. So all of that went into my decision. And it wasn't an easy one either. It hurt me too as I had grown close to the other friend.
Touche Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 Somehow, I doubt you could discuss this, to the level you claim... Did someone you care deeply about betray you or was it an acquaintance? You need to clarify this. Yes, I'm confused on that point myself. I'd be quite interested in the answer.
Trialbyfire Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 Yes, I'm confused on that point myself. I'd be quite interested in the answer. It's key to me. If you feel that someone you deeply care about betrays you, I can understand the angst to an extent, although there are always two-sides to the story. If it's simply an acquaintance, situations of this nature happen in a business environment constantly, so you shrug your shoulders and move on.
Author johan Posted October 13, 2007 Author Posted October 13, 2007 No. I was a loyal friend to each person up until a certain point. It's not a question of either/or. The other person was a friend and I was loyal until I could no longer be. Yes, in a way I was pushed...but no, I ALLOWED myself to be pushed past a certain point where I felt I was becoming disloyal to the other friend. And that's when I needed to make a choice. I could no longer be friends with both. Does that make sense? And to answer your other question, no. No one forced me to choose. I felt that as long as I were to remain friends with BOTH that I'd end up being disloyal in a way to both. No kidding? Is that because you felt that they expected that? How could it possibly be that either of those friends would have felt betrayed if you had maintained both friendships? Are they not understanding people? It's unusual to really have to sever a friendship, I'd say even in the case of divorce. Maybe you end up only hanging out with one or the other person, but you don't explicitly drop the other do you? Maybe over time your lives grow apart, which I think everyone understands. But it's still a friendship, right? How did I choose? Well the only thing I had in common with the one friend that I chose to end the friendship with, was the fact that the only think we talked about was the other friend and their relationship. That was pretty much our only bond at that point. But the other friend and I had a bond that was a little broader than that. Does that make sense? It wasn't so focused on just one thing. I felt that there was nothing much to sustain the other friendship. It was one-dimensional. And it was completely reliant on my just being there to listen to him vent, analyze and discuss my other friend. Well, I can see how the lesser friendship wasn't as satisfying. Given that you were forced to choose, that's clearly the one that had to go. And also, as I stated the friend that I had the closer friendship with ended up giving more of herself...she seemed to really care about ME and MY life and wasn't only focused on talking about her and her needs and her life and her issues and my other friend. She seemed just as willing to discuss things in my life. And not only that, I came to see that we were very much alike in many ways. Our personalities are similar. So all of that went into my decision. And it wasn't an easy one either. It hurt me too as I had grown close to the other friend. It does sound like you found a good friend. You don't come across such special people everyday. She's one to hang on to for sure.
underpants Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 I could share some doozies of stories on this topic. However, it is very late. I guess for me it boils down to...at a fork in the river situation...are you with me too? Can I trust you hand to be true? Can I offer my hand to you with genuine loyalty? Where is your heart...and how does it beat? If I detect dishonesty...I detect weakness and that detracts from my loyalty and loosens my grip.
Author johan Posted October 13, 2007 Author Posted October 13, 2007 It's key to me. If you feel that someone you deeply care about betrays you, I can understand the angst to an extent, although there are always two-sides to the story. If it's simply an acquaintance, situations of this nature happen in a business environment constantly, so you shrug your shoulders and move on. I've had friendships end for many reasons. Why would that matter to this topic? Are you curious about why I'm so interested? That's personal.
Trialbyfire Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 I've had friendships end for many reasons. Why would that matter to this topic? Are you curious about why I'm so interested? That's personal. All things considered, this is a public forum of which you posted a thread about a friend. In order to properly gauge the extent of the "betrayal", it helps to know the correlating emotion associated to it. As referenced above, if it's simply an acquaintance, I highly doubt you would be as concerned. If so, my advice would be that you take life a little less seriously.
Touche Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 It's key to me. If you feel that someone you deeply care about betrays you, I can understand the angst to an extent, although there are always two-sides to the story. If it's simply an acquaintance, situations of this nature happen in a business environment constantly, so you shrug your shoulders and move on. Betrayals, big and small happen in ANY relationship. I don't care how close the relationship is or isn't. It's just human nature..part of the human condition. I agree that we have to just accept that. We can choose to look at the whole person and decide if they're basically just a bad person. Or we can look at the person in question and ask whether the betrayal was an anomaly and they're generally a good person. At that point, we can decide to forgive and go on or hold a grudge and be bitter. I don't know a relationship in the world where there isn't some kind of betrayal in one form or another...big or small. We can only decide for ourselves what we're willing to forgive and what we're not.
Trialbyfire Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 Betrayals, big and small happen in ANY relationship. I don't care how close the relationship is or isn't. It's just human nature..part of the human condition. I agree that we have to just accept that. We can choose to look at the whole person and decide if they're basically just a bad person. Or we can look at the person in question and ask whether the betrayal was an anomaly and they're generally a good person. At that point, we can decide to forgive and go on or hold a grudge and be bitter. I don't know a relationship in the world where there isn't some kind of betrayal in one form or another...big or small. We can only decide for ourselves what we're willing to forgive and what we're not. Some valid points. It's interesting to see people look for forgiveness externally for their own acts and yet, hold onto a grudge internally, about acts done unto them.
Author johan Posted October 13, 2007 Author Posted October 13, 2007 All things considered, this is a public forum of which you posted a thread about a friend. In order to properly gauge the extent of the "betrayal", it helps to know the correlating emotion associated to it. As referenced above, if it's simply an acquaintance, I highly doubt you would be as concerned. If so, my advice would be that you take life a little less seriously. What? Where did I ever mention MY friend? Whether I've been betrayed or not is not part of the topic. I started it to explore some of Touche's statements, and she willingly participated. I think she explained herself pretty well. I still question her judgment, because I don't get how this was a choice she had to make. As if there were external forces at work that forced this. But it doesn't seem like that's really true. I get the impression her motivation was more internal. As far as how seriously I take life, I'd also have to say that that's not really part of this topic either. I appreciate the advice though.
Recommended Posts