OWoman Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 In the last gripping installment, MM's W had finally agreed to talk to him about The Future (he'd previously told her he was leaving, and since then she'd avoided any attempts to discuss that further) and used that opportunity to try to persuade him to give their M another go, staging a romantic meal, etc. He told her he saw no future for them together, and was still intent on leaving. Tears followed, but the evening was contained later by the return of the children, friends invited around and, for her, copious amounts of alcohol. She was supposed to go away the next day, but cancelled her trip. They've been avoiding each other since, a dark cloud hanging over the house but no scenes so far. Last night she went through to where he and the kids were sitting chatting, and tossed onto the table reservation confirmations for a trip she'd booked to a holiday resort for the family. Flight tickets, resort reservations, day trips to local attractions. It was presumably supposed to be part of the "giving it another try" scenario, as it had been booked before that conversation. He told her she should take the kids, but cancel his flight tickets or take a friend, as he wasn't going. She looked devastated, so he told her that going along would only create false hope, and that he was standing by his decision to leave, and that they should instead sit down and discuss the plans and details of his leaving. More tears, more locked doors. His kids suggested to him that perhaps he should go along as a final gesture of kindness, that they can swop so that he doesn't have to share a room with her at the resort but one of the kids does instead, that everyone agrees at the outset that it's nothing more than a trip and there's no hopes raised. He doesn't want to go. He doesn't want to spend any time with her in a foreign place, doesn't want to be subjected to moodswings and outbursts (which he fears will happen if he doesn't give in to her demands for "another go" at the M) and can't afford to take the time off work as he's made commitments. He's angry at her for not considering his work demands - she knows he's working to tight deadlines at the moment - and for being presumptious about the outcome of her attempts to convince him the other day to give the M another go. He feels she's not listened to what he's been telling her about leaving, that she's disregarding his views and brushing him aside "as she always does" and that she just assumes she'll get her way on this "as she always does" and that he needs to stand his ground. But mostly he doesn't want to raise false hope, and give her the gap to think he's not serious about leaving. The kids don't want to go without him. But they do want to go - the trip looks exciting to them and they get to miss some school - and so they're trying to talk him into going. I tend to agree with him that going would send the wrong signal, but perhaps there are others with better ideas?
lindya Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 You're a good writer, OWoman. A lot of what you're posting is very evocative. I think, in view of all the circumstances, it sounds like a recipe for a pretty hellish holiday. There's no predicting whether it will be more or less hellish if he also attends. I can understand the kids wanting him there, in case their mother goes off the rails (which she probably will, from the sound of things, and which would be a lot for them to cope with). The difficulty with going along with her plans for that reasoning would be that she would then view the threat of her "going off the rails" as a strong bargaining tool..and she might use it again. My suggestion would be that your MM thinks of a responsible family friend who could go along in his place.
LucreziaBorgia Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 I don't think he should go either. I know the kids would love for him to go, but in a case like this, him going would have about as much effect as pretending not to have cancer. He really should consider making his break and moving out instead of living at home. He isn't helping anyone by staying, regardless of what his intentions are.
OpenBook Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 This reminds me of that TV movie about - oh I can't remember her name - "The Something Something Story", about the MW (Meredith Baxter-Birney) who flipped out when her H went thru a mid-life crisis and fell in love with one of his staff people at work. They took a vacation together as a family toward the end of their M and it was a disaster - precisely because of her mood swings. After he D'd her and married the OW, she really went on a rampage, and ultimately snuck into their house and shot both of them to death in their bed. It was based on a true story - she got life in prison, I believe. And there were two parts to the movie - the first part portrayed her in a lot more sympathetic light than the second one did. The only positive thing I saw (and it's heartbreaking at the same time) in the whole mess in your situation, OWoman, was the attitude of the kids. Yeah, you adults can flip out all you want with your drama... We'll coddle you along - we just want the trip. Because Fun is what we're really after here. God, I wish we could all live in that mindset. I guess that's my point, OWoman, and my contribution to your thread:D for whatever it's worth. If he really believes that the kids come first, no matter what, then he should go on the freakin' trip. It won't kill him to have to put up with the W's manipulations one more time, for the kids' sake. And the kids' lives are getting ready to be turned upside-down, through no fault of their own. Why not at least give them just one pleasurable memory??
PoshPrincess Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 This reminds me of that TV movie about - oh I can't remember her name - "The Something Something Story", about the MW (Meredith Baxter-Birney) who flipped out when her H went thru a mid-life crisis and fell in love with one of his staff people at work. They took a vacation together as a family toward the end of their M and it was a disaster - precisely because of her mood swings. After he D'd her and married the OW, she really went on a rampage, and ultimately snuck into their house and shot both of them to death in their bed. It was based on a true story - she got life in prison, I believe. And there were two parts to the movie - the first part portrayed her in a lot more sympathetic light than the second one did. Sorry, I know that's not supposed to be funny but I was killing myself laughing reading that! Maybe I have a very sick sense of humour..... As for the holiday, I would also agree that he shouldn't go. Despite what the kids think it wouldn't be a pleasurable holiday for any of them. Take it from me, my ex and I did the same thing. We split up a couple of years ago but had a holiday booked. Initially he told me to take someone else but I didn't feel that I could as his parents had paid for the holiday and it had been me that had decided to end the relationship. My ex didn't want to go if it meant going without me so we decided that we would go for the sake of our son. We both tried our best to get on for our son's benefit but there were some very difficult times. We both look back on it and laugh now, but agree that it was the holiday from hell. Yes, mm would be giving his w false hope. My exmm went on holiday with his w and kids last year when their M was going through hell. His inlaws had booked it to try and help sort out their daughter's M. He was adamant that he wouldn't go but went for the sake of the kids. For him, it worked out fine. He said it was hell spending time with her but that it was great to do stuff with the kids. They are still together over a year later, although please be aware that this holiday by no means was the reconcilliation his W had hoped for!
noforgiveness Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 Are you sure he is being straight with you? This just does not sound right. From a BS point of view you could not have paid me to go on a family vacation with my husband. As a matter of fact I immediately scheduled a vacation with friends as a screw you gesture, I will survive type of thing. Also shortly after that vacation I scheduled one with me and just the kids to get away from it all and give them a much needed break and as a I don't need you you better be on your hands and knees if you want me back. I can not imagine why a woman would want to take a vacation with a man who says he does not want her. It makes zero sense. I would think she would want to take the trip herself with kids as a bit of independence thing and a starting over thing. It just doesn't sound right. Protect your heart. I'm afraid you are not getting the whole truth here. No one would pretend happy family after being told it's done.
LucreziaBorgia Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 This reminds me of that TV movie about - oh I can't remember her name - "The Something Something Story", about the MW (Meredith Baxter-Birney) who flipped out when her H went thru a mid-life crisis and fell in love with one of his staff people at work. They took a vacation together as a family toward the end of their M and it was a disaster - precisely because of her mood swings. After he D'd her and married the OW, she really went on a rampage, and ultimately snuck into their house and shot both of them to death in their bed. It was based on a true story - she got life in prison, I believe. And there were two parts to the movie - the first part portrayed her in a lot more sympathetic light than the second one did. That would be Betty Broderick. A sad story for all involved.
PoshPrincess Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 I can not imagine why a woman would want to take a vacation with a man who says he does not want her. It makes zero sense. I would think she would want to take the trip herself with kids as a bit of independence thing and a starting over thing. It just doesn't sound right. Because everyone's different! We all react in different ways to different situations. Good for you that you were so strong NoForgiveness. Others would be down on their hands and knees begging the WS to take them back. I know that I have been particularly weak re my exmm whereas plenty of women would have had much more willpower!
Impudent Oyster Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 WHat's your question? Should he go? How old is this man, can't he make a decision by himself without your permission? You can tell his wife that I'll go with her, I'm probably a lot more fun than her dopey husband anyway, and I won't sneak off to send secret text messages behind her back.
Impudent Oyster Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 From a BS point of view you could not have paid me to go on a family vacation with my husband. As a matter of fact I immediately scheduled a vacation with friends as a screw you gesture, I will survive type of thing. . I did the very same thing. I packed up the kids and myself and waved good-bye to my husband and we had a great vacation without him, I didn't want to look at my husband's face or hear his words...this doesn't sound right, AT ALL. I had to turn my phone off because my husband was calling me non-stop while we were away.
Author OWoman Posted October 10, 2007 Author Posted October 10, 2007 Tx guys! This is very helpful. IO, NF - I agree, nothing in the world would convince me to want to spend time with someone who's made it clear we have no future together, I'd want to sever things as quickly and painlessly as possible, but then I suppose I can't expect his W to be like me. IO - no, he's not seeking my permission, he's seeking my ADVICE. He's very confused right now, feeling torn and twisted and struggling to make decisions that are not based on his own heightened emotions but on some notion of what might be best in the longer term. IO, I'm sure you'd be EXACTLY what she needs - you'd cure her of any residual longing for her H and encourage her to move on and to find someone who wants her for what she is, not someone who is tip-toeing around trying not to upset her anymore than he already has while he plots his escape. Lindya - yes, I think the friend is the best answer. I think someone to talk to, in a non-threatening place, might help her get some perspective, aside from anything else. And I think for the kids it would help to have some time with their mother, without their father, in a space that's not totally unpredictable.
Impudent Oyster Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 I'm telling you OW, tell her to send me the ticket, I'll go with her! A few days with me and she'll forget all about him (no I'm not gay, I could just introduce her to some very nice single men, lol!) Honestly, he shouldn't go with her. He's toxic to her right now and isn't doing her any favors, it's best he makes a clean break and the sooner the better. He can take the kids on a trip by himself or with you another time. She should take a girlfriend or her mom and have a great time.
Impudent Oyster Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 The more I think about it, I'm thinking he should not just not go on vacation but he needs to get out of the house and fast. Has he started looking at new places to live? Even if he doesn't move far away he has to stop living with her. I don't know why she hasn't changed the locks and thrown him out, but since she hasn't, he needs to do the right thing and leave.
Author OWoman Posted October 10, 2007 Author Posted October 10, 2007 I'm telling you OW, tell her to send me the ticket, I'll go with her! A few days with me and she'll forget all about him (no I'm not gay, I could just introduce her to some very nice single men, lol!) Recently when she was away, some younger guy hit on her in a restaurant (she was with a colleague) and started sending glasses of champagne over, and a rose, and his number on a napkin, with the waiter. She got home and told her H about it and H said, "Oh, how nice! So when are you seeing him?" and his W burst into tears and wouldn't speak to him for ages. Classic oops! moment. (This was after he'd told her he was leaving. But I think he was still expected to do jealous, not understanding.) She'll likely need some time out, alone, before being ready to move on to someone else, but who knows? A nice holiday fling might be just the thing to take her mind off H and what happens next...?
Impudent Oyster Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 I think the wife will be fine, just as soon as her husband leaves. The fact that he's still in the house is a huge problem, he shouldn't have said anything to her if he wasn't prepared to leave. Why WOULD a partner tell his spouse he was leaving and then not go? To me it sounds like he's looking to open up communication or he isn't really serious about leaving. He needs to go, the sooner the better. He is sending very mixed signals by remaining in the home. What's he waiting for?
Author OWoman Posted October 10, 2007 Author Posted October 10, 2007 Has he started looking at new places to live? Even if he doesn't move far away he has to stop living with her. I don't know why she hasn't changed the locks and thrown him out, but since she hasn't, he needs to do the right thing and leave. He's looking! There's a place about two hours' drive away that he phoned about and is going to see. It's a bit far from the kids' school but if it's an OK place he reckons it might be fine at least in the meantime until something better comes up. That might also add to the mood in the house - people have been phoning back about messages he's left responding to ads, and he's been stepping outside to take those calls.
2sunny Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 my gut says that he - most likely - set up the vacation plans and is going- but trying to put you into a situation where you will be understanding when he goes with her. this happens all the time. he is manipulating both of you.
noforgiveness Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 Because everyone's different! We all react in different ways to different situations. Good for you that you were so strong NoForgiveness. Others would be down on their hands and knees begging the WS to take them back. I know that I have been particularly weak re my exmm whereas plenty of women would have had much more willpower! I don't know about that. I think this situation makes women strong. Have you ever read the BS boards? They never mention begging and pleading unless it's the mm doing it for forgivess. I just think mm likes to paint this weak willed helpless woman to his ow so they seem the sweetheart when they do things they "say" they really don't want to. Posh I find it hard to believe you would cry and beg a man.
2sunny Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 ow- see this is what i don't get. if his family knows he's set to move - why does he feel the need to "step outside" to take a call regarding his move? something seems "off" to me. he's working both sides of the fence.
Author OWoman Posted October 10, 2007 Author Posted October 10, 2007 my gut says that he - most likely - set up the vacation plans and is going- but trying to put you into a situation where you will be understanding when he goes with her. 2sunny I wouldn't have minded if he went, irrespective. I honestly don't have an issue with that - I don't resent time he spends with his family and I certainly don't feel threatened by it. If he wanted to go, he could simply have told me that there'd be less communication for a while because he was going on holiday with his family, and that would be that. He's also sounding very very stressed at the moment, and pretty desperate. He's forwarding me ads off websites for possible places he move to, and some of them are dark dank holes in the ground that I wouldn't grow carrots in, let alone children! I can understand the attraction of a holiday, but when it's with what he's trying to escape...?
Author OWoman Posted October 10, 2007 Author Posted October 10, 2007 ow- see this is what i don't get. if his family knows he's set to move - why does he feel the need to "step outside" to take a call regarding his move? Because she cries every time it's mentioned. Because once he left his landline no instead of his cell and his W answered and threw the phone down on the caller when they returned his call. Because it's clearly upsetting her and he's trying not to rub her face in it.
frannie Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 Last night she went through to where he and the kids were sitting chatting, and tossed onto the table reservation confirmations for a trip she'd booked to a holiday resort for the family. Flight tickets, resort reservations, day trips to local attractions. It was presumably supposed to be part of the "giving it another try" scenario, as it had been booked before that conversation. He told her she should take the kids, but cancel his flight tickets or take a friend, as he wasn't going. She looked devastated, so he told her that going along would only create false hope, and that he was standing by his decision to leave, and that they should instead sit down and discuss the plans and details of his leaving.... ... He's angry at her for not considering his work demands - she knows he's working to tight deadlines at the moment - and for being presumptious about the outcome of her attempts to convince him the other day to give the M another go. He feels she's not listened to what he's been telling her about leaving, that she's disregarding his views and brushing him aside "as she always does" and that she just assumes she'll get her way on this "as she always does" and that he needs to stand his ground. But mostly he doesn't want to raise false hope, and give her the gap to think he's not serious about leaving. The kids don't want to go without him. But they do want to go. I haven't been following your story in detail OW, so I'm just responding to what I read here, and in particular the parts I've quoted above. What I see here is a man facing a lot of manipulative behaviour and struggling with how to handle that. Saying 'no' to his W and C doesn't come easily and in fact in the face of emotional manipulations from both W & C he is still at least considering going against his better judgement and going on that trip. Tears and 'not listening' to his words of leaving from his W and 'I don't want to go without you, Dad' 'do one last nice thing for Mum' from the kids and he's weak at the knees. Well they all know him quite well and I'd say he doesn't have much hope of getting out of this if all that needs to bend to make it happen is HIS will... That's how I'm reading it. What is he looking for from you..? Permission (as someone has suggested)... perhaps, but I'd say more likely he's looking to you for strength, answers, perhaps even words and a firm line to take against them. I could be wrong (it has happened before!)... but I am guessing that this man isn't looking so much for your impartial advice (nor, by proxy, the impartial advice of the forum)... but rather for categorical reasons why he is allowed to say NO to them, as well as a means of doing that. Just my guess, anyway.
Author OWoman Posted October 10, 2007 Author Posted October 10, 2007 I don't know about that. I think this situation makes women strong. Not all women. Just recently I had a colleague in my office inconsolable because her H moved out to be with his OW. He phoned her while she was here to ask her for someone's contact no. and she was begging and pleading him to come back - here, in my office, in front of me! I felt absolutely awful for her, that she was prepared to flush her dignity down the toilet like that because she really wanted him back so badly. (And he's no prize. He's hit on me in front of her and hasn't at all been put off by being brushed off, simply moved on to the next woman to try his luck.) But it's not the kind of thing anyone would feel proud of doing, so they'd be unlikely to post it in a public forum, even under a pseudonym.
TogetherForever Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 Are you sure he is being straight with you? This just does not sound right. From a BS point of view you could not have paid me to go on a family vacation with my husband. As a matter of fact I immediately scheduled a vacation with friends as a screw you gesture, I will survive type of thing. Also shortly after that vacation I scheduled one with me and just the kids to get away from it all and give them a much needed break and as a I don't need you you better be on your hands and knees if you want me back. I can not imagine why a woman would want to take a vacation with a man who says he does not want her. It makes zero sense. I would think she would want to take the trip herself with kids as a bit of independence thing and a starting over thing. It just doesn't sound right. The BS in my situation, after they were thru for 2 years & us living together, still called him & asked if he'd like to go out to dinner. My s/o told her NO over & over again but she still insisted on inviting him. Only when I called her, in the presence of my s/o, did she get the hint that "No, he didn't want anything to do with her anymore". So even though it was 2 years since he left her, she still had that false hope.
serial muse Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 Not all women. Just recently I had a colleague in my office inconsolable because her H moved out to be with his OW. He phoned her while she was here to ask her for someone's contact no. and she was begging and pleading him to come back - here, in my office, in front of me! I felt absolutely awful for her, that she was prepared to flush her dignity down the toilet like that because she really wanted him back so badly. (And he's no prize. He's hit on me in front of her and hasn't at all been put off by being brushed off, simply moved on to the next woman to try his luck.) But it's not the kind of thing anyone would feel proud of doing, so they'd be unlikely to post it in a public forum, even under a pseudonym. Hm. I think it's pretty harsh - and I don't say this as a flame to you OWoman, just a general comment on the topic - to dismiss women who fall apart in the face of shattering news as not strong. Perhaps, as Frannie says, such behavior is manipulation. From personal experience, I call it temporary insanity. I fell apart, too, and said things I'm not proud of. I called, I sobbed, I pleaded, I raged. I went through hell. But people do pull it together, you know. I agree that some people hang on to the pain and/or the anger long past the point where it's part of a natural grieving process. Without knowing the BS and the MM in your case, OWoman, I don't have a clear sense of how awfully she's really behaving. I do know that she doesn't know the full truth, and believe me, that factors in. Sorting through the lies - and feeling vaguely deceived, knowing there's something you don't know, having a sick feeling of what it is but feeling like your partner doesn't care or respect you enough to talk to you openly and honestly - are a large part of the pain. I'm not saying this particular BS is not manipulative, or an evil wench. I honestly don't know. BS, as has been pointed out often on this forum, are just as capable of being nasty as anyone else. But in a general sense - I think judging people for displaying deep, wrenching emotion in public when their worlds have been turned upside down is pretty harsh. Yes, it's painful to watch, but my primary feeling - perhaps because I know how it feels, although I may have done some things differently - is simply sadness for how much pain that person must be experiencing. JMO.
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