Ladies, can you read and respond? I need your !

[Darkzen]

I don't believe in leagues. You restrict yourself.

 

You're entitled to that belief. Although, from my experiences, they do exist. My best friend growing up was model-esque. I liked her as more than a friend, but was a chubby and had horrible style for a long time. She didn't like me in that way... until I got shredded, found a style and all her friends started to show interest in me. She knew the type of person I was due to the friendship we had... she didn't give me a chance until after I was in her league of physical attractiveness. Pretty much the same situation happened with my ex. I've experienced it enough to know it does exist.

[Replicant]

She knew the type of person I was due to the friendship we had... she didn't give me a chance until after I was in her league of physical attractiveness.

 

Hollywood is the last place one should be quoting for relationship ideals and idols. Most of it is smoke and mirrors. Just because they can portray a good role on screen or live in the limelight of society does not mean they are exempt from being human. Once the flaws start to show, they get bastardized and their final 15 minutes of fame as a media circus act. So what may have once been top of the food chain quickly becomes the bottom feeder.

 

Besides the whole 'league' thing you describe is just a projection of a character flaw in that someones personality. It is very close minded thinking and just closes doors on yourself if you think that way. Towards friends or relationships in general.

[jcster]

Even though I'm not against prostitution, I do find the mentality of men who solely rely on it for sex disturbing. If I'm going to pick someone up for sex, I at least make sure that it's someone I like - even superficially. With a prostitute, it's a purely retail situation. Even though I know that men and women view sex differently, I've been really disturbed by the attitudes of the men that I've known who frequently use hookers. There's a disconnect between the act and its humanity. It's masturbation, with human assistance, but the lack of even basic affection in the act bugs me. And, to think that someone would prefer this type of sex over a personal relationship with someone seems vaguely psychopathic to me.

[Darkzen]

Hollywood is the last place one should be quoting for relationship ideals and idols. Most of it is smoke and mirrors. Just because they can portray a good role on screen or live in the limelight of society does not mean they are exempt from being human. Once the flaws start to show, they get bastardized and their final 15 minutes of fame as a media circus act. So what may have once been top of the food chain quickly becomes the bottom feeder.

 

Besides the whole 'league' thing you describe is just a projection of a character flaw in that someones personality. It is very close minded thinking and just closes doors on yourself if you think that way. Towards friends or relationships in general.

 

I agree in concept, but let's be somewhat realistic in practice. I'm an idealist, but am also a realist because it's needed for survival. I'd love the world to be perfect... it isn't though. Philosophically speaking, I'm in total agreement with you... speaking in reality, I do not think that you're being honest with yourself.

 

I don't blame people for being superficial, it's in our face every day in society. I may not agree with the concept of it, but we all have to live within the rules of the society we live among. I don't care how mentally tough or strong you are in your convictions, being constantly harassed by society eventually takes it's toll. Sometimes you have to submit in order to deal with it.

 

I personally have many views that are "outside the box", but I generally keep them to myself. Usually the only responses I get to them is no one cares or people attack me for being an idealist. Eventually you get the feeling of "why bother?". It's not that my views and ideals are extremely radical or anything, merely that they're unrealistic for most people. Unrealistic because they require strong convictions and lots of effort.

 

Just as you're being unrealistic right now. Obviously the ideal isn't impossible, but in order to change the current norm, it'd require a lot of support and effort (which most people aren't willing to do). I cannot control other people and stopped trying a long time ago. Nor is it my responsibility to change the world. I only try and affect the things that I have control over. If "Gus" wants to sleep with hookers, it's not my place to judge him. If "Gus" was my partner and slept with hookers, it'd be my place to react however I choose to, since it affects my life.

 

As for celebrities... I don't see your point. I didn't use celebrity relationships as an example, I used celebrities to give an indication of attractiveness. It's not like I could say my friend Susan and people would know wtf I'm talking about. It's generally a good idea to use examples that most people are familiar with, especially in this setting.

 

Either way, the point remains that people are superficial because of the society we live in. I'm sure there are people who don't conform, but they're few and far between. People generally want what they're taught to want and they settle because they have to, not because they want to. Is this a screwed up system? I'd say yes, but that doesn't change the way things are. Either you learn which battles to fight or you end up bitter and hating the world. I fight the battles in which affect me and my life. Maybe that makes me selfish or a bit cold-hearted, but it doesn't mean that I don't have values and morals. I learned that one person cannot change "the world", but he can change "his world". If more people tried changing "their world", as a side effect, it'd change "the world". The problem is that people are too concerned with what everyone else is doing and not with what they're doing.

[Ponzoli]

I really appreciate it. Just two quick points, Darkzen, I could not agree more with your concept of different people existing in different leagues. That is just the way life goes. There are many different social/economic stratifications which exist in our society. Take an exteremly attractive woman for instance. The competition for that woman is going to be intense, she is going to be asked out/hit on multiple times by guys on a daily basis. Now, if you werethis woman, and were a 9 or a 10 which guys would you consider? The 5's 6's and 7's, or the tons of 8;s 9;s and 10's that are also asking you out? Its a no brainer. That is simply because A)no one has enough time in their day to go out with all of the people t hey want to/might be interested in and B) the 5's 6's and 7's are completely out of the 9-10 hottie's league. You agree Darkzen?

[Ponzoli]

JC, thanks for your thoughtful response. I was just wondering if I could ask you something else real quick. When you say that Gus; behavior might be vaguely psychopathic, can you expound on what exactly you meant by that? I would appreciate it. Thanks!

[Lizzie60]

I have a friend. His name is "Gus" He is 26 years old, single, and has said that he has regularly paid for sex with various escorts over the past 3 years. He tells me that it is much easier for him to pay an attractive woman for her time rather than approaching and asking attractive woman out. He says that he has accepted the fact that he is not physically attractive, and that he enjoys the opportunity which these escorts afford him. He says that they all come from reputable escort services and that they are all extremely attractive.

 

My questions are these, and please do respond to them. Please.

 

Gus has been called everything from a "pervert" to a "pathetic loser" because he pays for sex. Why do woman react this way or feel this way about men who regularly pay for sex? Why are they so looked down upon? It seems to me he isn't hurting anyone, it is all consensual, and he seems to be happy with the arrangement. What is so wrong about that? Please help. Thanks!

 

I see absolutely nothing wrong with paying for sex... if that's what he wants... I've seen many very good looking guys/men who pay for sex.. and no..they're NOT losers... they are very successful businessmen, great fathers and husbands... they want NO commitments... no string attached sex.

 

I guess they are looked down because people have stereotyped them as losers, as guys who are utterly ugly and can't find decent women... which is absolutely NOT true.

 

What is so wrong about that? Absolutely nothing... as you say, he isn't hurting anyone, all is consentual... so who's business is it anyway?

 

In Holland, they have a program for handicapped people who wants sex.. the health system pays for an escort to visit the guy.. (seen that documentary once on TV)... these people have needs too... and how the hell do you think they can pick up nice chicks?

 

This is only an example... but if only losers and ugly men would hire with escorts... let me tell you,... I doubt it would be one of the biggest 'business' in the world... and the oldest too.

 

This is a myth... Very attractive men hire escorts, public figures, politicians, celebrities, etc... etc...

[Darkzen]

I really appreciate it. Just two quick points, Darkzen, I could not agree more with your concept of different people existing in different leagues. That is just the way life goes. There are many different social/economic stratifications which exist in our society. Take an exteremly attractive woman for instance. The competition for that woman is going to be intense, she is going to be asked out/hit on multiple times by guys on a daily basis. Now, if you werethis woman, and were a 9 or a 10 which guys would you consider? The 5's 6's and 7's, or the tons of 8;s 9;s and 10's that are also asking you out? Its a no brainer. That is simply because A)no one has enough time in their day to go out with all of the people t hey want to/might be interested in and B) the 5's 6's and 7's are completely out of the 9-10 hottie's league. You agree Darkzen?

 

I'd agree with that. The only part that you hadn't considered in this stance is that women get a lot more attention then men (even of equal looks/leagues). Women have all the control in the games of sex and relationships. Men approach women because generally speaking, they have what we want. Women rarely approach men because generally speaking, they know they have what we want. When you have an abundance of choices, you can be picky.

[Ponzoli]

"When you have an abundance of choices, you can be picky."

 

 

That was my point exactly Darkzen. And that is exactly why it is so difficult/impossible ofr a 5 6 or 7 to actually get the time of day from an 8 9 or 10. Just another variation of your leagues argument I guess. Also, dude, you have really helped me out on all of these posts, and I appreciate it. Can I ask for your opinion on this situation? I would really be interested to hear what you think is going on? Am I reading too much into this or is this girl interested in me? I would really appreciate a reply. Thanks.

"Okay, there is this girl in my German 103 class that is one of the most beautiful woman I have ever seen. She sits on the opposite side of the room from me, and I am always checking her out, even if it means craning my neck around 2 of her neighbors to get a view of her. Judging by where she sits vis a vis where I sit, I imagine she has seen me doing this via her peripheral vision several times. She has also caught me looking 2-3 times by turning around in my direction. When she did that, I automatically looked away , did not simile and avoided eye contact. . On one instance however, she beat me to it after we made accidental eye contact, and s he looked away right away before I could. Now, I thought that was the end of it right there, def. not interested, she broke eye contact and looked away without smiling, end of story. but...

 

"like 2 weeks later, I am sitting in the room, and she walks in, past her spot (where she always sits) and sits down in the chair right next to me. Now there were still a ton of seats available, so she was not choosing this seat just because it was the only one left. I was kinda surprised by this, as I had expected her to avoid me at all costs once she caught me checking her out all those times, and looked away from me. So I am sitting right next to her, minding my own business, and she turns around and faces me, and asks me "So how's your ankle doing?" (I had broken my ankle a few weeks before). I simply repiled "Better, thanks" and we didn't really talk again the rest of the class. Since then she has goine back to sitting on the opposite side of the class as usual. My only question is, what should I make if anything of her sitting right next to me that day, and asking about my ankle out of the blue? I mean, I figure that if a Girl kn ows I am interested in her, but she is def. not interested in me she would have stayed as far away from sitting by me as possible, and avoided iniating any unnecessary contact between us. Am I wrong about this? Please help. Your opinions would be appreciated. Thanks."

[jcster]

When you say that Gus; behavior might be vaguely psychopathic, can you expound on what exactly you meant by that? I would appreciate it. Thanks!

 

What I meant by that is that, at its heart, paying prostitutes for sex rather than getting it through social means removes all emotion from the act. For some, that is a welcome relief from their usual situations (ie recent divorce). For these people, people with unique fetishes, or the handicapped, I can see why they might hire a prostitute from time to time. However, when someone relies ENTIRELY on prostitutes for sex, then I feel that it's either a conscious decision to remove the element of emotion from the situation, or it's possible that person really doesn't feel any emotional connections to people at all - so sex with a prostitute is no different (or even preferable) to sex with someone they know and like - hence the psychopathy.

[Ponzoli]

That makes perfect sense. T hanks for the response, I had not yet considered that point of view. Can I ask you for a quick favor? Can you read the hypothetical described below and provide me with your opinion as to whether or not this girl was ever really interested in me? I would really appreciate it. Thanks.

 

Okay, there is this girl in my German 103 class that is one of the most beautiful woman I have ever seen. She sits on the opposite side of the room from me, and I am always checking her out, even if it means craning my neck around 2 of her neighbors to get a view of her. Judging by where she sits vis a vis where I sit, I imagine she has seen me doing this via her peripheral vision several times. She has also caught me looking 2-3 times by turning around in my direction. When she did that, I automatically looked away , did not simile and avoided eye contact. . On one instance however, she beat me to it after we made accidental eye contact, and s he looked away right away before I could. Now, I thought that was the end of it right there, def. not interested, she broke eye contact and looked away without smiling, end of story. but...

 

like 2 weeks later, I am sitting in the room, and she walks in, past her spot (where she always sits) and sits down in the chair right next to me. Now there were still a ton of seats available, so she was not choosing this seat just because it was the only one left. I was kinda surprised by this, as I had expected her to avoid me at all costs once she caught me checking her out all those times, and looked away from me. So I am sitting right next to her, minding my own business, and she turns around and faces me, and asks me "So how's your ankle doing?" (I had broken my ankle a few weeks before). I simply repiled "Better, thanks" and we didn't really talk again the rest of the class. Since then she has goine back to sitting on the opposite side of the class as usual. My only question is, what should I make if anything of her sitting right next to me that day, and asking about my ankle out of the blue? I mean, I figure that if a Girl kn ows I am interested in her, but she is def. not interested in me she would have stayed as far away from sitting by me as possible, and avoided iniating any unnecessary contact between us. Am I wrong about this? Please help. Your opinions would be appreciated. Thanks.

[

[Ponzoli]

I had to remove a link from my original post. I do really hope that you and Darkzen can get back to me though, I would love to hear your responses to that situation I described above. Thanks so much!

[Darkzen]

I had to remove a link from my original post. I do really hope that you and Darkzen can get back to me though, I would love to hear your responses to that situation I described above. Thanks so much!

 

It sounds as if you peaked her interest when she caught you staring and wanted to feel you out a little more. It could be a few things though. I used to enjoy the thrill of the hunt way more than the kill, knowing I could was all I needed to stroke my ego. Maybe she's looking for that knowledge, to boost her confidence/ego. Maybe she's actually interested because most guys are intimidated by her beauty. Maybe she's shy and wanted you to make a move.

 

Looks aren't the only reason to find people attractive, they do matter to the majority of people though. Maybe you're a little below her league in pure physical attractiveness, but have other qualities that bring you into her league.

 

For example, I'm no image of perfection, but I get a lot of attention. I'm not a pretty boy, but my aura of mystery and intelligence increases my appeal. I'm not ugly by any means either though. I'm tall, well-built and handsome... people say that I remind them of a better looking Joey Fatone from Nsync. He's not a bad looking person, but he's definitely not gorgeous (ala the Brad Pitt type).

 

I'd say to show a little more confidence and smile occasionally, women love confidence. Don't be arrogant though, the difference is pretty much being secure in what you can do, as opposed to thinking you can do more than you really can. I know that I'm intelligent, that's confidence... I know everything because I'm intelligent, that's arrogance. Don't be an open book, but show some measure of interest. Women want a challenge, they want to be kept guessing. This is why "nice guys" finish last, women want their cake and to eat it to. Just like men want, a hot girl that likes sports and isn't self-absorbed. Bad boys and nice guys are personality types that don't co-exist in one person. Same goes for party girls and good girls. This is my opinion though and I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule. Overall though, bad boys are bad boys for a reason. Nice guys are nice guys for a reason. Party girls are party girls for a reason. Good girls are good girls for a reason. I don't see the thinking of these personalities being something that meshes well.

[jcster]

I think what Darkzen is trying to say (in between talking about his mysterious allure) is that you should play it cool but friendly. She wouldn't even talk to you if she weren't somewhat interested, but an overeager response will just turn her off. If I were you, I would try and make some small talk with her - but only for a short time each day and only once per day. If she starts coming over to you more often than you are going to her, then it's working. Then, you can feel free to ask her out.

[hag lover]

Another Male Here. I Seem To Be Hearing Quite A Few Judgmental Opinions. And We Only Know A Small Amount Of The Whole Story. I Guess If People Feel Better About Themselves Quickly Judging Others, Well, What Ever Flips Your Skirt. And Knowing Damn Well That Each One Of You Have To Shove All The Bones Back In The Closet When You Get Your Coat. Lol.if Your Friend Is Happy With What He Does, Then Pat The Guy On The Back And Buy Him A Beer!!!

[Ponzoli]

Once again, I appreciate your opinions and inputs. Darkzen, I agree with you 100 regarding leagues, and her possible motivations for having talked to me that day. So neither one of ya'll (JCester or Darkzen) make anything of the fact that the one time she did catch me looking and made accidental eye contact, she looked away right away? I took that as the kiss of death right there. That is why I was so surprised that 2 weeks later she sat by me and asked me about my ankle. This entire thing is just so confusing. Correct me if I am wrong, but for most chicks, if they catch a guy who they are not interested in, the last thing they would do is sit anywhere near him or start a conversation with him. I am correct in this assumption or am I missing something here? Also, I don't know if it adds anything to the story, but that was not the first time she asked me about my ankle. About 2 weeks before, when I had gotten taken ouf of the boot I had been wearing on my foot, she did comment as she walked by, something like "So no more boot, huh?" Once again, I don't know if these comments are her simply being nice/sympathetic about an injury I suffered or something more. How do I tell??!!!

[jcster]

She looked away because you caught her looking at you...not the other way around. She's at least being friendly! You're never going to know what she thinks if you don't talk to her. So far, she's made all of the effort - you have to just take a chance and talk to her.

[Darkzen]

Once again, I appreciate your opinions and inputs. Darkzen, I agree with you 100 regarding leagues, and her possible motivations for having talked to me that day. So neither one of ya'll (JCester or Darkzen) make anything of the fact that the one time she did catch me looking and made accidental eye contact, she looked away right away? I took that as the kiss of death right there. That is why I was so surprised that 2 weeks later she sat by me and asked me about my ankle. This entire thing is just so confusing. Correct me if I am wrong, but for most chicks, if they catch a guy who they are not interested in, the last thing they would do is sit anywhere near him or start a conversation with him. I am correct in this assumption or am I missing something here? Also, I don't know if it adds anything to the story, but that was not the first time she asked me about my ankle. About 2 weeks before, when I had gotten taken ouf of the boot I had been wearing on my foot, she did comment as she walked by, something like "So no more boot, huh?" Once again, I don't know if these comments are her simply being nice/sympathetic about an injury I suffered or something more. How do I tell??!!!

 

I took that into account. That could have been shyness or disinterest. Although, since she approached you later, I'd guess it was shyness. I've talked to girls before and they've shown absolutely no interest, but then tell mutual friends that they want to date me. People can be funny like that.

 

The only way to know someone's intentions is a combination of feel and communication. People speak a lot louder with body language than words usually. So we cannot really help you there, merely make assumptions based on your perspective of what transpired. You have to read her body language more so than her words. Is she apprehensive/nervous when she talks to you? Does she act that way around everyone else? Etc... all of these things are important, in reading her personality and breaking it down.

 

Playing it cool is just a general strategy, each person is different. Some approaches work better than others depending on the personality of the person. Most people look for confidence, although there are some people that enjoy manipulating insecure people. Playing it cool and confident has always worked the best from my experiences though.

[Ponzoli]

I just wanted to make sure that I was being completely honest in the way I was presenting the scenario. ANd just to be clear JC, the time that we made accidental eye contact, it was she who caught me. .That is to say, I had been staring at her when she just happened to look up and at me and then she darted her eyes away before I could dart mine. I just wanted to make that clear, since in your reply you said she might darted her eyes away because I had caught her looking at me. But I appreciate your inputs, both of ya'll. I just hope I am not reading too much into anything one way or the other. I will say that she does talk to other people on the room, so she is not super shy or an introvert, but she is also not super talkative, or someone I would classify as an extrovert either.

 

Darkzen: do you think my take on it is realistic. OPerating under the theory that: A-she caught me looking multiple times B-is not at all interested in me, as evidenced by breaking eye contact then C-she would never, from that point forward, sit anywhere near me, or actually initiate a conversation with me about anything. Do you think my theory above is correct? That is why I thought there might be something to her sitting next to me and actually talking to me. I thought most t imes chicks went out of there way to avoid guys they knew were interested in them, but in whom they had no interest. Am I right?

[brothermartin]

Women know that when it comes to sex, they call the shots. Thats why so many of them are offended at the thought of a man paying for sex. If the guy is not tall, dark and handsome, the single ladies arent exactly beating down his door. So he pays for it. Its the same as offensive lyrics in rapp songs. Women here these things, they let the're own insecurities take over, even though it is'nt about them personally, and now its wrong and any man that dosent agree is a bastard. Gotta love the female double standard.

[Darkzen]

Ponzoli: I cannot tell from your explanation... I'd need to have been there to read her body language. I would figure that she doesn't know what to make of the staring and decided to probe a little (the whole sitting next to you one day). As for looking away, that could be a couple different things. Maybe it made her uncomfortable making eye contact (insecurities/shyness) or maybe she wasn't interested (not wanting to lead you on by maintaining eye contact).

 

Overall, I think she's intrigued and wanted to find out more about you. Maybe not interested, but at least trying to figure out your intentions. Are you a creepy stalker guy, a possible friend, a possible boyfriend or even possibly just looking at her because you saw a booger hanging out of her nose. It's all possible, her body language will tell you all you need to know. Nor is reading body language an easy thing to do, since it requires people to pay attention to little details. You also have to be objective in how you read things. With my ex, I saw a lot of things that should have made me run away in the beginning, but I didn't want to see them for what they really were, because of my jaded view.

 

Best bet is to pay attention to details and don't read too much into them. Watch how she interacts with others... her mannerisms, her gestures, her expressions, etc... once you have a pretty decent understanding of her personality, try having a conversation with her and note any inconsistencies. Once you have these inconsistencies, you can attempt to reason what they mean. If she treats you like she treats everyone else, there's no interest. You're not looking for consistency, because that means she isn't into you.

 

Optimally you're looking for her to appear lost or confused/nervous, unsure of how to act (maybe even a little dreamy, like she recently woke up). That's what infatuation does to people. I'd say it's like seeing a wide-eyed child, totally forgetting the rest of the world and having complete focus on one thing. Obviously, this rarely happens at first sight, but this is the goal you're aiming for.

[Darkzen]

Women know that when it comes to sex, they call the shots. Thats why so many of them are offended at the thought of a man paying for sex. If the guy is not tall, dark and handsome, the single ladies arent exactly beating down his door. So he pays for it. Its the same as offensive lyrics in rapp songs. Women here these things, they let the're own insecurities take over, even though it is'nt about them personally, and now its wrong and any man that dosent agree is a bastard. Gotta love the female double standard.

 

Wise words and almost entirely accurate. I'd just like to add that it's not women, it's society in-general.

[lindya]

Women know that when it comes to sex, they call the shots. Thats why so many of them are offended at the thought of a man paying for sex. If the guy is not tall, dark and handsome, the single ladies arent exactly beating down his door. So he pays for it. Its the same as offensive lyrics in rapp songs. Women here these things, they let the're own insecurities take over, even though it is'nt about them personally, and now its wrong and any man that dosent agree is a bastard. Gotta love the female double standard.

 

I think the person who calls the shots in any sexual relationship is the one who has the largest pool of available options - by which I mean the option to have sex with people they want to have sex with. That's not necessarily dictated by how attractive a person is. It often has far more to do with how fussy (or not) and how outgoing they are.

 

As far as Gus and his hooker habit goes...as long as he's being careful, using condoms and not being abusive to the women he pays, it's up to him. I don't like to be closed-minded about things. I wouldn't condemn a guy on the basis that he visited prostitutes, but neither would I get romantically involved with him. We all have our own value base, and it's best that people just stick with those who, by and large, share theirs. Doing otherwise just results in too much hassle and too many clashes.

[Ponzoli]

excellent point, I had never thought about that before. So in your opinion, you don't look down upon Gus for relying solely on prostitutes to fulfill his sex life, but at the same time, you wouldn't date a guy like Gus either? Am I reading your post correctly? Please let me know. Thanks.

[peace_pipe]

Sex shouldn't have to be something that is "bought".

 

Sex is already bought, wether you like it or not.

 

When is the last time you gave a homeless guy a piece?

 

Everything in this country is bought now. Wake up.