Learning how to understand

[jaelynne52]

So I saw my ex this Saturday. I invited him on a walk, because the more that I thought about our prior conversations, the more confused I was getting. I keep getting such mixed signals from him, and I wanted to try and clear the air as straightforwardly as possible.

 

During our last talk I had ended the conversation by asking him if he thought his reasons for breaking up with me were still the same. He said that yes they were, and that he was sorry he couldn't give me what I needed. I responded with the fact that it wouldn't matter anyway, since I don't trust him enough to accept anything he would give me. I'm too scared of getting hurt.

 

The more that I thought about this portion of our conversation, the more confused that I got. The entire rest of that talk he had said that he agrees with me on almost everything that I thought he was going through, that he was depressed, that he wasn't able to communicate to me, that he hides from how he is feeling because it's easier than dealing with it. Since I quit speaking to him for a short time, he had time to think about all of this, and he realized that it's true. He still wasn't sure of what he felt or thought, because it's hard for him to focus on that when he's feeling so down on himself, but know he was able to acknowledge that he needs to work on it. I had also previously said that I thought his real reason for feeling so distant from me was because of his depression, not because of the reason he offered, that he was just missing a deeper connection with me, so I thought that if he recognized the depression and how it made him feel, that he would also recognize that it might be the reason for his lack of emotion.

 

When I talked to him this Saturday, I asked him what he thought I intended by asking him that question. He said that he thought I was trying to find out if we could get back together again, that maybe because he acknowledged all of these things that were wrong, I had misunderstood and thought he was willing to try again. I explained to him that that wasn't the case, that I can see now that he needs his time and his space to sort himself out. I told him that I wouldn't be happy in a relationship with him right now, because I want him to be healthy, not a mess like he is, and I wouldn't want to risk preventing him from getting better.

 

We talked some more about all the changes each of us has made in our lives, and it was going well. We had a quiet moment where we were each walking silently, and I finally blurted out that I hate myself for still loving him, that it would be so much easier to just stop. He was quiet for a bit, and then he said that he still loves me too. He said that sometimes he thinks it would be easier to just be with me, but he knows that he can't, not right now. For the first time, I was able to hear this and not lose it.

 

So I think I'm starting to accept the situation. I still hope for a reconciliation in the future, but I'm trying not to look into the future too far. Finding my way through each day is enough for me right now. I feel that I've grown a lot from what has happened so far, and I hope to keep growing. I'm nowhere near stable yet, but I think I'm less wobbly!!

 

Just thought I would share. If anyone has some insight or comments, feel free to share!!

[Chiquita27]

You are an amazing woman......reading your insight and the way you understand him makes me believe your love for him is beyond you. You want him to be ok....even if that means being away from him. But it's true, he can't offer you much if he's not happy with himself.

 

My ex always says he can't love me if he can't even love himself. Not sure if that's your guy's situation. But it does make sense.

[jaelynne52]

One of the things that really bothered me from our conversation before this Saturday was him saying, "I can't give you what you need." I kept asking myself, who does he think he is, saying what I need? What is it that he thinks I need?

 

So I asked him to clarify that during our talk, and he said that he meant he can't give me the love that I need. I told him he doesn't know what sort of love that I need, because only I know that. He then said that he can't love me to the extent that I deserve to be loved, because he's too confused inside.

 

So yes, it's kind of like your guy. I feel that all I can do is take care of myself in the mean time. I've decided to not go completely NC, but I am going slowly with all of this. I don't want to get myself back to square one, where I'm frustrated and confused, but I also want him to know that I can listen, if he needs me to. I feel like I'm walking a delicate tightrope, not quite friend, but not quite complete stranger either. It's hard, but I just take it day by day.

[Storyrider]

Don't know your backstory, but sometimes depressed people simply don't have much to give. Does he have friends or relatives he can turn to for support? You might not be the best person to give him support if he feels guilty or pressured by your expectations. That will just make him back off more if he is too depressed to handle it.

 

If you are still hurting, it is not fair to yourself to put your needs aside. For that reason I would create some distance. Later, once you are healed enough, he could probably use the comfort of knowing you are there for him even if he doesn't act very grateful right now.

 

I think your thread title is good and very important. He may be telling you honestly that the problems are inside him, not about you or your relationship. Ask yourself very honestly whether you believe him, and if you do, stop blaming yourself. It really isn't you.

 

Of course, many people use this same rhetoric as a front or an excuse for bad behavior. You have to know him and take his words in context with the big picture to interpret them accurately.

[jaelynne52]

I've started to give up on the hurt and recognize that it's unintentional. That's why I've let him know that I'm there to listen, but I can't act like this isn't hard for me and just be his friend right off the bat. There's a difference between a long walk and talk, and hanging out with friends at the bar. I'm not ready for the latter, because it feels too much like a lie.

 

And I totally believe that this is about his depression. I'm not even quite sure if he's thought it out that far yet, except to say that as long as he is depressed, he can't know how much he loves me. He's expressed that he wants to love me, but he doesn't know how when everything else inside is a jumble.

 

Thank you for your words of support. He does have family and friends to turn to, but I'm not sure that he's taking advantage of them at this time. He spends a lot of time at home by himself playing video games or otherwise distracting himself, except for when he's at work.

 

I feel like the best I can do for him is let him know I'm here for him without placing any pressure on him to come to me. He has to make that decision on his own. I'm really glad for your insight, it helps me see the situation more clearly.

[Bosiell]

Jaelynne

 

I sympathise with your postition. You are being very strong and sensible.

 

Could I ask you tho, I do not also know the history. But what are the general reasons he is depressed? You say he as friends and family and more importantly the love of from what I see a fine woman. Is this not enough for him to realise and come to his senses? Excuse if I am being blunt but I cannot sympathise with his postition and it is very harsh and selfish on you.

 

Also you quote, he said that he meant he can't give me the love that I need. I told him he doesn't know what sort of love that I need, because only I know that. He then said that he can't love me to the extent that I deserve to be loved.

Sorry but that doesnt wash with me. Real love is unconditional and without doubt.

 

Ive no doubt he is confused, but a line has to be drawn. Or you will torn apart.

 

x

[jaelynne52]

I can see where you would think that he is being selfish, and I agree. He is being selfish, but wouldn't you say that sometimes a person needs to be selfish? That your boundaries are pushed so far and you have to draw a line and say, I will not cross that? He feels that that is what he did, and I support him for it. I may not necessarly feel that it was the best decision, or that I would have made that decision, but we are all different people and he reacted the best way he knew how.

 

He felt that in our relationship he had to try so hard to please me, even though I never asked him to do this. In the mean time, he wasn't happy himself. Because his values were so skewed, placing my happiness above everything else, he ended up making both of us miserable, me because I could see he wasn't happy, and him because no matter what he did he couldn't make me happy, since all I wanted was for him to be happy. It was a vicious circle, and I see that now. At the time, I couldn't understand why he was pushing me away when all I wanted to do was help him, but now I know that he would never be able to help himself unless he got his priorities straight. As long as I was there, he would never work on himself, he would always worry about how what he was doing was affecting me. I don't want that for him, so yes, he might be being selfish, but it's a good selfishness. It's the same sort of selfishness I used when I said I couldn't be around him anymore, and the same sort of selfishness I'm still imposing when I say that I can listen, but on my own terms.

 

You say that a line has to be drawn, and I feel that it has been, on both of our sides. I've made it clear to him that I will not ignore how much pain I am in just so that he doesn't have to see it. That I will not pretend that this is easy for me when I hurt so badly. That I will listen to him, but on the condition that he also listen to me, and that neither of us judge. I'm not treating my current relationship like a friendship, which is what he wants from me. I'm treating it like a breakup. I will talk, and sort through the past, and offer support, but I will not hang out, watch a movie with him, make small talk, laugh at his jokes.

 

On his side of the line, he has made it clear that he is in no place to discuss a future or present relationship with me. That he needs time to sort through what he is feeling. That as much as I want to have a place in his healing, I can't. That this is all something he has to do on his own, or at least without me.

 

Does any of this make sense? I'm not sacrificing myself. I picture our talks and relationship right now as me behind big castle walls, yelling down to the opposing side our negotiations. Why this war had to take place, what can be done to find a truce, how it has and is affecting each side. But I'm well fortified. I'm looking out for myself here.

[Bosiell]

Thanks for the reply. I have read through it a couple of times. And yes for the most it makes sense

 

He felt that in our relationship he had to try so hard to please me, even though I never asked him to do this. In the mean time, he wasn't happy himself. Because his values were so skewed, placing my happiness above everything else, he ended up making both of us miserable, me because I could see he wasn't happy, and him because no matter what he did he couldn't make me happy, since all I wanted was for him to be happy.

 

Hmm. Oh so complicated, it shouldnt have to be this way, sorry if I am stating the obvious, but you knows its true. If he put your happiness above his own (that is love) and tried really hard to make you happy and you were happy with that, then why were you both miserable. You both should have been well that word again, simply happy!

 

On his side of the line, he has made it clear that he is in no place to discuss a future or present relationship with me. That he needs time to sort through what he is feeling. That as much as I want to have a place in his healing, I can't. That this is all something he has to do on his own, or at least without me.

 

What is he feeling? Is it his own confused emotions generally or emotions concerning you Jael.

 

I do have to say I can relate to this situation. In a past relationship I was in a similar postition to him. The girl concerned loved me to bits, it was very hard to ignore and I so appreciated what she did for me, not something that can be taken for granted. However I too was confused or should I say unsure about my feelings for her. But thats what I told myself, at the end of the day however, in the cold light of day I simply did not love her. If I did then there would be no doubts, no confusion and no pain. I was selfish with her, kept draggin it on, tearing her apart. I finally came to my senses and called it a day, it was very hard, but I had to put her feelings first.

 

/hugs

[jaelynne52]

Thanks for the hugs!! I really feel that I need them sometimes.

 

It's more complicated than just making each other happy though. If he's unhappy to begin with, which he is, and then he doesn't focus on that because he's trying so hard to make me happy, which he did, then he only gets more unhappy. Being depressed, it's not as simple as "making her happy makes me happy, therefore things are okay". It's a superficial happiness compared to his bone deep depression. It's kind of like you're feeling sad, so you watch a comedy to cheer you up, but then afterwards you get sad again, because you weren't dealing with what made you sad to begin with. As long as he was in a relationship with me, he couldn't deal with his own sadness, because he was trying too hard to keep mine at bay. And I could sense that, so then I just made his job harder, further keeping him from dealing with his sadness...

 

Part of it has to do with me, part with his relationship with his mom, part just with himself. I'll tell him things that I've discovered about myself, and it's like turning on a light bulb for him. He'll recognize that it's somthing he thinks or feels as well, but he couldn't put it into thoughts or words. I feel like he's fumbling around in the dark, groping, but not finding anything.

 

As for whether or not he no longer loves me, so far he hasn't been able to say that he doesn't. I've begged him to tell me so, so that it would make it easier for me to let go. I would never champion a relationship with someone if I thought they didn't love me. But he can't. Even know, two months later, and he still can't say that he no longer loves me. It's just that he doesn't know how to deal with that love, I guess.

 

It's all so complicated...

[Storyrider]

Jaelynne, read this book if at all possible. It is extremely well written and insightful regarding depression, including an account of the author's experience, interviews, and medical/scientific perspectives.

 

The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression by Andrew Solomon

[jaelynne52]

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm a reader, so I'll be sure to check it out.

[Spinderella]

Jaelynne,

Its good that you conveyed to him that you would be the judge of what you need. He has said though, that this is what he needs to do, for him, and you are understanding, and giving him the credit for knowing what he truly needs. So that part is done. Now have you established what you need, in the current circumstances? Also he is not being alone while you are still there. Is he asking you to wait for him, or is he asing you to move on?

[jaelynne52]

I've established that I need time and space to deal with my emotions. He wants to be friends, and I've made it clear to him that I can't do that. I don't know if he's necessarily understood that completely yet, but he's trying to give me the space that I want.

 

It's really weird to write that, and realize that our roles have reversed, sort of. Originally he broke up with me because he couldn't stand the emotional pressure he was under, and so he needed time away from me and with himself, to focus on himself. Now that he's had that time away, he wants to hang out with me again, because he realizes what he's pushed away. He still needs emotional space, but he wants time with me, just hanging out, talking about the weather. He wants someone he can feel close to while not actually getting close.

 

Now I can't do the close but not close thing. I either want nothing, or everything. It makes me sound so selfish to say that, but it hurts too much to pretend like hanging out is enough for me.

 

Our relationship right now is more like exploring unknown territory. We've each discovered so much emotion and convictions that we didn't know we had until we broke up that the two times we've talked, it's been like slowly uncovering a work of art. We're setting boundaries, and everything is different between us. I don't know if I'm explaining this well, because it's not that either of us have changed, just that so much else has changed that we don't know how to deal with.

 

And you are right Spin, he isn't alone while I am still there. I'm almost scared sometimes that his need to be my friend and hang out is his way of escaping from his depression. When we were dating, there was one time that he said he needed space, he needed time to himself, and I said that was fine. We went a week barely talking and not seeing each other. Then the next week, he called me every day and I'd try to remind him that he was supposed to be spending time by himself, and he wouldn't listen. This was the first time I noticed that he wasn't himself, that there was a bigger issue here than just space.

 

He hasn't asked me to stay or move on. He's letting me make up my own mind about what is best for me. Both of us have recognized that being alone right now is the best thing for us, so we are both sort of in limbo, not really sticking around, but not really moving on either. I'm not so much concentrating on forgetting him as I am concentrating on myself. I can't force myself to feel one way or the other toward him, it just happens, so I figure the best way to heal is to think on something else. My emotions will work themselves out eventually.

[Spinderella]

It sounds like he wants you there, without the responsibility and pressure of the relationship. Of course he cannot help what he is going through, and deserves every bit of compassion, but its an easy place for you to get stuck, and in doing so, lose any chance of a real relationship with him again. So you are doing the right thing in not being friends. Perhaps you have now said all you can say to each other, and its time to cut the contact.

[Bosiell]

It is totally understandably if you feel you cannot be friends, it is not selfish at all to want all or nothing, you have to put your feelings first.

 

Yes you need a break at least, no contact. You have said yourself that you are concentrating on yourself and your own feelings, thats good.

 

Good luck and be strong Jael x

[jaelynne52]

Thanks, you guys, for the support. Sometimes I feel so strong and empowered by what I'm doing and what I've gone through, and then other days I feel like a baby. My biggest issue is trying to understand (hence the title of my post...). Maybe it should have said Learning how to accept, because sometimes I feel that is all I can do, accept. Understanding might be beyond me.

[isntitironic]

Look jaylene you seem like a sweetheart but I think your guy needs some tough love. Sometimes you have to look out for yourself and all your energy has been on him. i think he wants to love you but subconsiously he probably doesn't repect you. He knows he can come back to you any time he wants. Try not contacting him for a month. If he contacts you don't be rude but be preocupied and get off the phone. This is not about humanity. It is about our subconcious reptilian brain that does not respond to people who are there for us whenever we need. This places you in his mind beneath you. This may sound shallow and mean but you will be surprised when it works.

[jaelynne52]

I will admit, a lot my energy is concerned with him, but not all. I went three weeks where I was so angry and frustrated that I cut him out entirely, NC to the extreme. I spent those three weeks exploring my feelings, healing myself, finding a routine that doesn't involve him at all. It's only been a week and a half that I've been willing to talk to him, and then only the two times. I was so sick of feeling used just because he was sad and needed a friend.

 

I'm willing to talk to him now, mostly because I have my own things I want to say. My situation has changed so dramatically since when I first went NC with him, even though it was only three weeks. I went from begging him to reconsider and see what I see to agreeing with him that it's good to be separate right now. And meaning it, which is the most important thing. I'm not just saying it because I want to seem strong, I mean it. I want a healthy relationship, not a farce.

 

Like I said before, I feel like I'm walking a delicate tightrope. I'm trying to be there for myself and him at the same time. I always have to spend time alone centering myself and meditating on whether it's really necessary and/or beneficial for me to talk to him. The first time, I spent days doing this. I try to be as objective as possible about all of it...it's not easy...

 

I know that some of this might sound like a cop-out, an excuse for me to talk to him. More than that, I feel that I have to accept that he's where he is at, and also accept that I am where I am. I am at a place where it's best for me not to talk to him, he's at a place where he's finally ready to address issues he couldn't address before. There isn't an easy compromise.