greengoddess Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 I don't get it. I just don't get it. I have become fascinated with reading the stories. Jerry Springer at its finest. Found this forum after a couple that seemed like the perfect couple. Had it all and married 20 years was struck by infidelity. They are now divorced and the chubby balding albiet wealthy midlife crises man is living happily ever after with his 20 something cupie doll. Should be interesting to see how long it lasts. This man begged and pleaded for his wife to forgive but she chose to take alimony for life after 20 years and start over. Anyhow reading ow/om they always go on and on that the man is really really inlove with them and that because of kids finances etc they can't be with them. Even when they get tossed to the curb they still insist the mm was and still is in love with them and that he is too weak to choose happiness. Then the betrayed wife/husband insists it was a fling he was bored etc etc he always loved me blah blahblah. I'm just wondering where the truth lies for the majority. I'm watching the tv show cheaters. Have been watching quite often and almost EVERY case the cheater denies even when caught red handed with video they deny and ask their partner to take them back and the ow/om cries off into their own car. WHY? I haven't seen a single show where the cheater said I'm sorry I fell in love with this person it's over with us. Is it just the quick first reaction to deny and try to save the original relationship? Just weird dynamics all together. I really think cheaters must be so extremely manipulative that both the ow and the wife strongly believe they are loved. Just fascinating stuff. The wife takes the cheater back and the ow agrees to continue the affair going deeper underground with it. Why is that? Is he that capable of convincing both women he's true to them. Do both the wife and ow have such low self esteem they will do anything to keep this man? These men need to be kicked to the curb by both women at the same time and feel the damages they have done.
Cobra_X30 Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 I can make you see truth in any lie, no matter how big, so long as you desire to believe!
LucreziaBorgia Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 1. Is it just the quick first reaction to deny and try to save the original relationship? 2. Just fascinating stuff. The wife takes the cheater back and the ow agrees to continue the affair going deeper underground with it. Why is that? Is he that capable of convincing both women he's true to them. Do both the wife and ow have such low self esteem they will do anything to keep this man? 3. These men need to be kicked to the curb by both women at the same time and feel the damages they have done. 1. Yes. Never underestimate the importance of the status quo. Those 'original' relationships are like huge fat ropes - each strand of the rope a part of a life built together: children, legacy, finances, friendship, longevity, extended family, parenting, holidays, vacations, joint ownership, etc. Cutting a huge fat rope with one slash is a traumatic experience for most anyone. The first instinct? Panic and try to keep it from being cut. If it is going to be cut, cut it slowly - just don't allow it to be severed with a Dday - take the lesser loss instead. The MM/OW relationship is like a string as opposed to a rope. Much easier and less traumatic to cut and be done with. You have a choice: lose a lot with cutting the big rope, or lose less cutting the string. What choice do you think most people will make? 2. Why does the W and the OW both agree to keep him? Because they love him. Love often makes no sense. The pain of losing him outweighs the sense of self preservation in letting him slink away. I don't think its about lack of self esteem so much as it is a lack of self preservation. These women sacrifice a part of themselves to accommodate as much of the MM as they can into their lives. W accepts that he is a cheater, OW accepts that he will never leave his W. They love him enough to give up a part of their own happiness in order to be with him. Of course, it helps that MM is lying to both of them, pledging undying love and devotion, swearing that his heart belongs to one of the other, etc. When faced with loss, you tend to hold on to whatever works best for keeping that loss at bay: even when what you are holding on to is smoke and mirrors. 3. Yes, indeed. But few end up kicked to the curb by both the W and the OW. MM is as afraid of that, as W and OW are afraid of losing him. He will say and do whatever is necessary to keep that from happening. Fear of loss feeds from both ends.
Author greengoddess Posted October 9, 2007 Author Posted October 9, 2007 wow LB what a deep understanding post. Cobra true very true. I would love to have a true mans perspective who has professed to both wife and ow his love and who has continuosly kept both relationships sustained. I guess I want to hear from a true manipulative cakeeater. It's all so interesting.
LucreziaBorgia Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 I guess I want to hear from a true manipulative cakeeater. It's all so interesting. You just heard from one. Well, a reformed one, anyway. I was the worst sort of cake eater, and the worst sort of OW too. I haven't been either for some years now, and will never return to it either. I did carry away a lot of experience from all of those situations, and that comes through as an understanding of the situation. I can tell you the most poignant parts, and I can uncover the nastiest, dirtiest, most mercenary underbelly of it as well. Hearing the W and the OW POV is helpful, but nearly no one wants to REALLY hear what the cake eater has to say. At least with the W or the OW POV, you have a sense of victimization there. With the cake eater, you are talking straight to the person who made them victims. The people who are involved with a cake eater don't want to see the parts of that person that makes them a victim. They generally just want to see the parts that they love, and that they assume loves them. Most W and OW simply outright deny that they have a cake eater on their hands - and will vehemently argue with anyone who suggests that they have one on their hands. Its easier to handle that way, I guess. No one wants to see the ugly side. I'm right there reminding people that its there, though.
Author greengoddess Posted October 9, 2007 Author Posted October 9, 2007 LB did you really love both people or neither? Were you a married cake eater? I would never have guessed that about you from your posts. I guess you are really reformed.
Kazan Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 I can make you see truth in any lie, no matter how big, so long as you desire to believe! that's almost the Wizard's First Rule from the sword of truth books http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard%27s_Rule "People will believe anything they want to believe, or fear to believe." Wizard's First Rule: Chapter 36, Page #397, US Hard Cover (revealed by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander).Explanation by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander: "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."
EmotionallyYours Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 that's almost the Wizard's First Rule from the sword of truth books http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard%27s_Rule Wow... Kazan... I didn't think anyone else but me read those books...lol You made my day.
Cobra_X30 Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 that's almost the Wizard's First Rule from the sword of truth books http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard%27s_Rule I'm not sure if that's a compliment or not! I do tend to wax poetic sometimes... makes me sound more profound! (note internal rhyme) I dont read that author in particular. I try to stay away from fantasy... more sci-fi for me. I do however love George RR Martin and his work. Anyway, more to the point. People will only believe if they want to... and they will disbelieve if they want to, irregardless of the truth! Which is why cheaters and players can do what they do. Oh and EY, I hope things are going well for you! I dont suggest letting everyone know how geeky you may or may not be.
LucreziaBorgia Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 1. LB did you really love both people or neither? 2. Were you a married cake eater? 3. I guess you are really reformed. 1. I did love the people I was with, and I would fall in love with the OM. Unfortunately, "in love" rarely lasted and I would simply continue on in the relationship I was most comfortable in when "in love" wore off. In some relationships, I did not love the guy I was with. This one abusive assh*le comes to mind, but as abusive as he was - I still shouldn't have cheated on him. In some relationships, the OM was just an FWB that I would hook up with and not give much of a thought otherwise too. It was different each time. The only similar thing was that I was determined to keep the 'primary' relationship (except for the abusive assh*le, but that is an exception). I rarely, if ever would be with just one person for very long. I generally always had something going on the side. I never did have a case where I left for OM. I had one case where the 'primary' person broke things off, but I still didn't end up with OM. I guess in that case, his purpose was better served in an affair and not in a relationship. He felt the same way I did, so it didn't happen for us like that. 2. No, not while married - but my stbxH was a cake eater. He asked for an open marriage, and I understood where he was coming from and agreed. I wasn't happy about it all the time, but I understood it. Interestingly enough, I didn't indulge like he did. He felt bad that he was with someone, and I wasn't - so he set me up with his friend. Here we are more than two years later: stbxH and I decided to divorce, and me and the friend are buying a home together. stbxH and this guy are still great friends and business partners. There wasn't any sense of sneaking or cheating going on. I think that stbxH loved me, and still loves me - but its not the 'husband and wife' sort of love, its more of a 'family' type love and divorce won't really change that. I think that he had divorce in mind when he initiated the open marriage thing, but loved me and didn't know how to let go without letting go completely. In our case, open marriage was more of a transition than anything else. A long goodbye to our marriage. Now that its clear that there is no 'completely letting go' things are running a lot smoother for all of us. 3. Yes. I haven't had the same mindset that I used to for a long time now. There were some internal adjustments that needed to be made, but I made them. I can equate with the pain of the betrayed, too. I've been there, and it was after I put my cake eating/OW days behind me. How ironic, eh that I would fall victim to the same sort of mercenary OW that I was back in the day. I guess I am lucky that she was like me: it was a hit and run situation, a one time thing with no interest of follow up on either side. Doesn't make it any less painful, but having been the cheater and the OW I have a pretty good insight into it so I was able to put it into some perspective.
EmotionallyYours Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 I'm not sure if that's a compliment or not! I do tend to wax poetic sometimes... makes me sound more profound! (note internal rhyme) I dont read that author in particular. I try to stay away from fantasy... more sci-fi for me. I do however love George RR Martin and his work. Anyway, more to the point. People will only believe if they want to... and they will disbelieve if they want to, irregardless of the truth! Which is why cheaters and players can do what they do. Oh and EY, I hope things are going well for you! I dont suggest letting everyone know how geeky you may or may not be. To hell with it all... I'm coming out of the closet!
Tomcat33 Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 Explanation by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander: "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool." People who can't get through a paragraph without repeating the words "people are stupid" three times, sound stupid.
Cobra_X30 Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 To hell with it all... I'm coming out of the closet! A Science Fiction fan?
Herzen Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 1. Yes. Never underestimate the importance of the status quo. Those 'original' relationships are like huge fat ropes - each strand of the rope a part of a life built together: children, legacy, finances, friendship, longevity, extended family, parenting, holidays, vacations, joint ownership, etc. Cutting a huge fat rope with one slash is a traumatic experience for most anyone. The first instinct? Panic and try to keep it from being cut. If it is going to be cut, cut it slowly - just don't allow it to be severed with a Dday - take the lesser loss instead. The MM/OW relationship is like a string as opposed to a rope. Much easier and less traumatic to cut and be done with. You have a choice: lose a lot with cutting the big rope, or lose less cutting the string. What choice do you think most people will make? 2. Why does the W and the OW both agree to keep him? Because they love him. Love often makes no sense. The pain of losing him outweighs the sense of self preservation in letting him slink away. I don't think its about lack of self esteem so much as it is a lack of self preservation. These women sacrifice a part of themselves to accommodate as much of the MM as they can into their lives. W accepts that he is a cheater, OW accepts that he will never leave his W. They love him enough to give up a part of their own happiness in order to be with him. Of course, it helps that MM is lying to both of them, pledging undying love and devotion, swearing that his heart belongs to one of the other, etc. When faced with loss, you tend to hold on to whatever works best for keeping that loss at bay: even when what you are holding on to is smoke and mirrors. 3. Yes, indeed. But few end up kicked to the curb by both the W and the OW. MM is as afraid of that, as W and OW are afraid of losing him. He will say and do whatever is necessary to keep that from happening. Fear of loss feeds from both ends. The rope and string metaphors ring true, LB. While most MM/MW opt to cut the "AFFAIR" string, there are some cheaters who cut both restraints in an attempt to break free and start over. Both spouse and lover are kicked to the curb. Those "second act" spouses make everyone unhappy.
LucreziaBorgia Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 Both spouse and lover are kicked to the curb. Those "second act" spouses make everyone unhappy. Ah yes, the 'exit affairs' - I forgot about those. Yes, those are bad indeed.
Herzen Posted October 9, 2007 Posted October 9, 2007 Ah yes, the 'exit affairs' - I forgot about those. Yes, those are bad indeed. Well, if you're going to fu#k up, you might as well do it big time.
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