Author Kerewin Posted October 10, 2007 Author Posted October 10, 2007 That's just the problem, though, Phateless. I've had love like that (my first marriage, that first year, we lived and died for each other), and when that part ends (and it ALWAYS ends), you're still left with trying to figure out if you really like that person once you've taken off the rose colored glasses. Told myself I'd never make that kind of commitment again until that first flush of love was over.
JamesM Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 So is it entirely possible that he is "burned out" on you? I don't mean that to sound harsh, but many times when a relationship starts out to hot and heavy, someone becomes "over loved.' I dated a girl who sent me cards and letters, called me on the phone, and we dated. This was before computers and cell phones. To me although I liked her a lot, this was too fast. And she began expecting that things would progress to a serious relationship. If you have been imagining marriage and kids with him, I am guessing he knows this. Even though he feels deeply for you, he may suddenly be realizing that you want more a commitment than he is ready to give. I wonder if you back off and do date others, then maybe he WILL realize what he has in you.
melodymatters Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 That's just the problem, though, Phateless. I've had love like that (my first marriage, that first year, we lived and died for each other), and when that part ends (and it ALWAYS ends), you're still left with trying to figure out if you really like that person once you've taken off the rose colored glasses. Told myself I'd never make that kind of commitment again until that first flush of love was over. Those are some wise words woman ! From your posts you def sound like you have your head together. Personally, I can ONLY fall in love if I am feeling strong love from the other person. Kind of like how sex is only great if you are both really into it. Anyway, it sounds like you are making wise decisions, so keep that up. And don't be too availible for this man who clearly doesn't deserve you ! Good luck !
Phateless Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 I miss that feeling of loving with reckless abandon. I want to find that again.
Author Kerewin Posted October 10, 2007 Author Posted October 10, 2007 James M--No worries about being too harsh; after all I did openly ask for opinions . I really don't think I "over loved" him; as I implied earlier, I was the one pushing to put the brakes on many times. It's tough though, there were a couple of times where he implied that I'm not vulnerable enough, and I have to credit that somewhat---I usually wind up being "one of the guys" with my male friends. After the "big talk" we had lunch and saw a movie at his place. He said "this is kind of weird, there's not as much joking and you seem sad". I said, "Well, I AM sad. But, somehow this has also been easier. I felt less guarded than I have before now that I know I'm not the girl for you." He said that's "kind of a messed up thing to say. Why are girls always so guarded when it's the 'soft and fuzzy' side of them that makes men want to stay?" I replied "We don't learn it in a vacuum--we're not going around being open and vulnerable, getting rewarded for it, and deciding to put our guard up anyway. We learn to do it after getting kicked in the teeth one time too many, cause it's easier to get rejected for who you're not than who you are". He didn't really say anything to that. But, he did call a couple of time since then to say hi. So part of me wonders if since I no longer feel guarded around him, if that vulnerability will appeal to him. Maybe yes, maybe no. So, I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing--maybe he'll come around, maybe he won't. Right now though, the hurt is still so fresh, I can't imagine it going away. And melodymatters--thanks Phateless--yeah, that part's fun, but it's not realistic. I have one guy friend who leaves EVERY time the bloom's off the rose. It's kind of like a drug high--at first, just a little gets you high, then it takes more and more. With people, they are just who they are, you can't get "more" of them, so instead, love junkies switch drugs (partners).
Author Kerewin Posted October 10, 2007 Author Posted October 10, 2007 He just called for advice about an interpersonal problem he's having at work. Because I'm no longer second-guessing how everything I say will make him feel, I gave him my no-holds-barred opinion. When I was done he quietly said "wow" and asked if I'd help him implement my suggestion. I think I have his attention now, but even if I don't, not holding back felt GREAT!
nicki Posted October 10, 2007 Posted October 10, 2007 Yeah, don't hold back anywhere. Tell him you are re-evaluating him. Maybe he is coming towards you because you are pulling away. For fun, google "commitment phobic." A very enlightening read. Many people with this problem come on strong at the beginning. You feel they like you more than you like them. You feel in control of the relationship. They give so much of themselves and act so open with their emotions. Once you are giving back to them in the same way, however, they bolt. Then they come back once their panic wears off. It's an awful cycle.
Phateless Posted October 11, 2007 Posted October 11, 2007 Yeah, don't hold back anywhere. Tell him you are re-evaluating him. Maybe he is coming towards you because you are pulling away. For fun, google "commitment phobic." A very enlightening read. Many people with this problem come on strong at the beginning. You feel they like you more than you like them. You feel in control of the relationship. They give so much of themselves and act so open with their emotions. Once you are giving back to them in the same way, however, they bolt. Then they come back once their panic wears off. It's an awful cycle. Wow, that sounds exactly like what happened to me recently... and to think she called ME commitment-phobic... ugh.
Author Kerewin Posted October 11, 2007 Author Posted October 11, 2007 LOL, answered a quiz on commitment phobia for fun, pretending I was him (I know, silly, but just exorcising the ol' demons here). Apparently thinking someone is "the one" when they're moving away soon is a HUGE warning sign (and he's done that TWICE). Stupidly, tho, I still love him. But. even if he doesn't change his mind, I'm still glad I said I wanted to keep seeing him. Because now, no matter what happens, at least I won't have the regret of not having said what I wanted to say. At least, in the end, I'll have been true to myself. There were times when he was mean, and I let it slide. I'm usually pretty feisty, and I'd let myself forget that. I thought maybe if I tried to make him happy, make him a priority, he'd appreciate that, and love me for it. I've decided that if he wants to be "friends", then I have to hold him accountable to the same standard of mutual respect to which I hold my other friends.
ls3360 Posted October 11, 2007 Posted October 11, 2007 That's just the problem, though, Phateless. I've had love like that (my first marriage, that first year, we lived and died for each other), and when that part ends (and it ALWAYS ends), you're still left with trying to figure out if you really like that person once you've taken off the rose colored glasses. Told myself I'd never make that kind of commitment again until that first flush of love was over. I think this comment deserves its own thread.
Author Kerewin Posted October 11, 2007 Author Posted October 11, 2007 So, before the breakup, he used to call every morning just to say a quick hello. Obviously, that ended with the relationship. Yet after I gave him a piece of my mind yesterday, I got that "good morning" call again today (or voicemail, rather, as I didn't answer the phone). Jeez--have I been overthinking this whole thing? Is it as simple as me giving less and him therefore wanting more? At the very least, it makes me feel more in control again.
Krytie TV Posted October 11, 2007 Posted October 11, 2007 Is it as simple as me giving less and him therefore wanting more? At the very least, it makes me feel more in control again. Yes! Welcome to the world of enlightenment... glad you could make it. All the women here will tell you that it's silly to play games blah blah blah. But you have pretty much hit the nail on the head with this observation. The only question remaining is whether you are interested in someone who reacts this way to attention.
Author Kerewin Posted October 11, 2007 Author Posted October 11, 2007 Exactly so Krytie. I still love him, but is this the kind of dynamic I want in my life long-term? Everyone SAYS they hate games, but they all respond to them (men and women alike). His definition of love (you hurt when they're not around) isn't something I want in my life anymore---stopped wanting that when I turned 16. I want someone who sees ME (not an idealization of me) as honestly as I see them. I NEVER thought he was perfect, I didn't "hurt" when he wasn't around, and I still wanted nights out with just my friends without him. I thought that meant I was a grownup, not that I didn't love enough.
Krytie TV Posted October 11, 2007 Posted October 11, 2007 Excellent. You sound like you're in a good place. All that's left for you to do now is to make a commitment to your ideals. You know what's right for you, the challenge is now listening to yourself in the face of adversity.
shadowplay Posted October 11, 2007 Posted October 11, 2007 Yes! Welcome to the world of enlightenment... glad you could make it. All the women here will tell you that it's silly to play games blah blah blah. But you have pretty much hit the nail on the head with this observation. The only question remaining is whether you are interested in someone who reacts this way to attention. I'm confused. Are you saying you have to suck it up and play games because that's the reality of human nature, or are you saying people should not play games and hold out for others who feel the same?
luvmy2ns Posted October 11, 2007 Posted October 11, 2007 If it's gonna happen, it'll happen. YOu can't force it.
Krytie TV Posted October 11, 2007 Posted October 11, 2007 I'm confused. Are you saying you have to suck it up and play games because that's the reality of human nature, or are you saying people should not play games and hold out for others who feel the same? I'm saying that this dynamic of push/pull, whether or not you choose to accept it, is a very real and inevitable consequence of most romantic relationships. It just is. Given that, one either has to internalize it and learn to incorporate it in a way that makes them comfortable or choose to limit their romantic relationships to those that do not use this method of interaction.
Author Kerewin Posted October 11, 2007 Author Posted October 11, 2007 I think you're absolutely right Krytie (see in my field all the time, but those people are SUPPOSED to be dysfunctional or they wouldn't be in treatment to begin with). I just think it's dissapointing that he seems to need that uncertainty/ fear/ anxiety/ whatever to think he's feeling something "real". I'm not looking to have my fight or flight mechanism engaged--life provides enough occasions when it's required without my having to LOOK for it. Still, I can play these games for a while--since it's not what turns my crank, I can go through the motions without getting caught up in them. Maybe that sounds mercenary, but there's too much good between he and I for me not to see if it'll work.
riverbender Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 Fight or flight doesn't "turn your crank" but yet you are "in love with him"? Love requires two functional fully engaged adults as willing participants. IMO, you love the idea of who you thought he was, or worse, can be. Maybe. Someday. You love the idea of you and him as you want him to be, not how he is - in other words, a fantasy. I've read this entire thread and I wanna know what you are doing dating my ex!!?? He was infatuated in the beginning. Then all of a sudden it was "I don't get that feeling with you like I had with my ex." "Oh you mean the ex that cheated on you twice with your "friends"? That ex?" Silly boy. Because I was in love with him, I gave him the time he needed to come around. He'd been through a really bad year - back injury, spinal fusion surgery, career change, end of a relationship, blah blah. I knew for a fact that he loved me, he just didn't recognize it for what it was. How could he? He'd never had a functional relationship before. All his ex's were nuts. I'd show him what a real relationship looked like. We were totally in sync. We could be ourselves with each other and it was OK. And it really was. The sex was phenomenal. We were best friends. I figured he just needed to get whatever out of his system. I was going to be there for him because I loved him and that's what you do when you love someone. Right? So I waited. Good things come to those who wait. Patience is a virtue. If you love something set it free. We were "friends" for four years. I'd feel like we were getting close and then I wouldn't hear from him for two months. Push. Pull. He loved me, he loved me not. I waited. I was going to get what I wanted even if it killed me apparently. (I'm kinda stubborn) Then, I finally got what I wanted. I got what I waited four years for - a committed, exclusive relationship. We moved in together a few months later. You know what they say - be careful what you wish for. Three months after he moved in, I threw his sorry butt out. A month later he was begging for reconciliation. And a month after that. And a month after that. It's been two years now. I care for him as a friend, as much a friend as I can be to him (not much because I've lost respect for him). He STILL, though not as frequently, suggests reconciliation. It's as if our roles are now reversed. I have zero interest and he believes that I'll come around eventually. Because I wasted four years of my life being a good friend and woman and "loving" him, I'm now too old for that crap. For four years just couldn't do a committed relationship with me and now he's begging. I wasn't the one and now because I'm unavailable I'm his destiny? Why didn't I listen to him in the beginning and just take him at his word - I wasn't the one? Because I was smarter than him? Because I knew him better than he knew himself? Maybe it was because I just couldn't handle the rejection? Or, was it my distorted view of reality that I refused to acknowledge? Was it that I just didn't want to part with my fantasy world? Was I too available? ABSOLUTELY! Did becoming unavailable help? Uh huh. Did it make him love me? What is it that you are looking to get from this guy and/or relationship?
Author Kerewin Posted October 12, 2007 Author Posted October 12, 2007 riverbender, your post was really funny--thank you! And lordy, but do our situations sounds similar! I hear what your saying--and maybe some time from now (a month, a year, whatever) I'll say "thank God I didn't wind up with him". I don't plan on giving him forever, and I'm not waiting for him to come around--I'm making plans and getting out there on dates. Tough, cause my heart's not in it, but I know better than to stay home and brood. At the moment though, I'm not ready to chuck in the towel for a couple of reasons-- not the least of which is I censored myself a lot around him in the hopes that the edited, kinder, gentler me would be more to his liking. I'm going to try being myself with him now--if he's going to reject me, it's going to be the REAL me, not some fake person I thought he'd want.
Lizzie60 Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 I didn't read the whole thread ... If I were in your shoes I would have 'flushed' this arrogant jerk. BUT if you want an advice on 'games' ... I say... don't make yourself available as much... If he calls, don't pick up the phone, next time he asks you where you were, you can say you were out with 'a friend'... Be independant, he'll be at your feet... it works most of the time..
shadowplay Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 Riverbender, Your post is an enlightening look at human nature. It reveals just as much about you as it does about your ex: you fell prey to exactly the same push and pull forces as he did. You wanted him when he was unavailable because he was unavailable. Then when you finally had him you "lost respect for him." Kind of sad, no? Or was there some other reason you booted him after three months? Here's my theory. You never really wanted him to begin with. It wasn't about him, it was about winning him over to heal your bruised ego. You said you're stubborn, so you were determined to prove to yourself that you could have him. But you always hated him on some level for his rejection of you, so when you finally accomplished what you had set out to do those feelings of resentment bubbled to the surface. Additionally, the fact that you beat him at your "game" made you lose respect for him. You were also subconsciously wreaking revenge, and you got the ultimate revenge by rejecting him the way he had you. Essentially you manipulated him into loving you. I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but it seems like a pretty sound theory. Sorry if that's harsh, but I'm not exactly criticizing you because I think all people play these games whether they're aware of it or not (some just more than others). Was your ex very insecure, needy, slightly passive, didn't have a strong identity? I find that guys with his pattern tend to have those qualities. More confident men are less likely to be so unstable. If anyone wants the definitive read on this subject pick up an underappreciated classic called "Of Human Bondage" by Somerset Maugham. It's a coming of age story about a well-to-do man who falls in love with an ordinary, low-class woman with no redeemable qualities who treats him like crap. And I mean like crap. Quite painful to read, but extremely insightful. Somerset Maugham undertands human nature better than any other writer I've encountered. "Great Expectations" deals with a similar subject, but it doesn't have the same depth.
Author Kerewin Posted October 12, 2007 Author Posted October 12, 2007 shadowplay, the post mortem on riverbender's relationship seems kind of moot now--she's already acknowledged it was a mistake and the whole thing is well in her rearview mirror
ls3360 Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 If he calls, don't pick up the phone, next time he asks you where you were, you can say you were out with 'a friend'... You can be in control or unavailable, but you shouldn't become rude. You don't need to pick up the ringing phone and you don't need to be available whenever he wants to do something, but do return his calls when you can. Not returning phone calls is rude and disrespectful. If you have to be rude to keep his interest, then walk away and find someone that brings out the best, not the worst, in you.
shadowplay Posted October 12, 2007 Posted October 12, 2007 shadowplay, the post mortem on riverbender's relationship seems kind of moot now--she's already acknowledged it was a mistake and the whole thing is well in her rearview mirror Yeah, I know, but I find the dynamic there pretty fascinating...also I'll be interested to hear her take on my theory.
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