How long is "til death do us part" ?

[Zapbasket]

And though she has a lot of good qualities that I love and respect her for, unfortunately she doesn't feel the way about me.

 

Bobby, I feel ill-equipped to give an opinion on what you should do. But I do urge you to perhaps look at things from a slightly amended angle.

 

You don't know, really, that she didn't respect you. She didn't always behave respectfully towards you, but...she DID marry you, and have a child with you, and then, when you walked away, she didn't hurl recriminations after you but asked for another chance.

 

I think that rarely are people truly cold, though it might sometimes feel that way when you're on the receiving end of cold or difficult behavior. Usually, people are just scared. Maybe she felt angry at you, because over the years you were doing something or had a pattern of behavior that she interpreted as YOU not respecting HER. You might have felt that your actions towards her were perfectly loving, but for whatever reason--her history, her expectations of what a marriage "should" be, her feelings about herself as a person--she interpreted things you did as being unloving towards her. She became scared, perhaps, that you were going to abandon her, or that you didn't love her, or that you didn't respect HER, and so she lashed out, became stubborn, blamed you for everything.

 

I'm not saying that if you consider things in this light you should also reconsider your decision to leave your marriage. All I suggest is that if you open your heart to viewing the other person charitably and with forgiveness, it might clear your mind to make other options evident to you that otherwise would not be evident.

 

You're in a tough position and it's really admirable that you're questioning things so deeply. Good luck, whatever you decide.

[Bobby NoBrains]

Thank you for some wonderful tips .. I'm doing some more thinking.

 

It's so easy to fall back into the "status quo", i.e. to go back to being a couple with regular lives, just ignore all the crap that's happened, and get on with it. It's only the wanting of change that creates the fear and the uncertainty.

 

Or maybe there's some small feeling that I'm not doing everything I can to resolve the issue amicably, but that comes from all the anger and resentment that have built up over the last so many years of this kind of treatment. It's very possible that she also feels the same way about the manner in which I have conducted myself in the marriage, and maybe she's a better person for being able to get over it. I dunno.

 

Primarily, I feel guilty for being selfish because that is not in my nature, but I suppose there comes a time when you finally say "Enough!" and put yourself first before everyone else. I also worry about our son and the effect this will have on him in the long run. But isn't it better for him to have two happy parents living separately rather than two unhappy parents living together ? I guess nothing is really certain. It wasn't when we got married and it isn't now.

 

I guess what really matters is the kind of commitment that two people can bring into a relationship and whether they are equally committed to being with each other, hence making the necessary adjustments and changes when required to keep the relationship going in the right direction. I can't honestly say I've done everything possible in my power, but I can definitely say I've done mostly what I could. Unfortunately I can't say the same for her, and there's no confidence inside me that she will ever change. There is also no enthusiasm to make further investment into this relationship from my side as of right now.

 

I need to get over a lot of hurdles before I can look at this situation objectively enough to make an "informed" decision. I need to get over my anger and resentment about so many things, I need to get confidence in her ability to change into a person who is compatible and cohesive with me, and to somehow generate new enthusiasm about our relationship, and only after that will I really be able to look at this from a healthy point of view.

 

I guess I need a lot of work and a lot more time than I have taken yet, before I can get anywhere near a solution to my dilemma. Please continue to post with your advice and suggestions. It's helping me a lot though I don't know how to express my thanks.

 

Bobby

[Cobra_X30]

I need to get over a lot of hurdles before I can look at this situation objectively enough to make an "informed" decision. I need to get over my anger and resentment about so many things, I need to get confidence in her ability to change into a person who is compatible and cohesive with me, and to somehow generate new enthusiasm about our relationship, and only after that will I really be able to look at this from a healthy point of view.

 

You need to move the ball into her court! She needs to make those changes and show you that its permanent. As you said it is easy to fall into the same behavior patterns as previous... the status quo.

 

Does she understand the stakes involved here?

 

Do you know why she hurts you like this?

[Bobby NoBrains]

You need to move the ball into her court! She needs to make those changes and show you that its permanent. As you said it is easy to fall into the same behavior patterns as previous... the status quo.

 

Does she understand the stakes involved here?

 

Do you know why she hurts you like this?

 

Well, she says that she understands the stakes here, but I guess I don't believe her. She has already offered to make changes, but the real question here is of trust. After telling her on and off over 8 years the fact that there have been no permanent changes is telling me that I just can't trust anymore. And I'm not ready to have my trust broken, I'm just not ready to face that pain again.

 

Well, basically she is not an empathetic person, so she doesn't understand how her actions would hurt someone. Other posts have called this kind of behaviour selfish, perhaps it is that also, I dunno. Imho, it's not rational behaviour, hurting your spouse again and again when things are in your control, it's a sign of something basically wrong with the relationship. I dunno how to really put it into words here. I just know that every time she had a genuine complaint, I changed my behaviour or habits or whatever to suit her. She never did that for me in all this time, and that's a long long time to simply say take me as I am. Heh, too much anger and resentment, I'm just not able to let this go, sigh

 

Bobby

[Cobra_X30]

Well, basically she is not an empathetic person, so she doesn't understand how her actions would hurt someone.

 

Like I said, I have been through this before. It took 2 years for me to just pull the plug! I can honestly say I grew so much during that relationship, I got stronger, and learned to stand for what I want.

 

She was the kind of person who would watch Oprah about women who have anger issues and punch hit and throw items at thier husbands, then poke fun at how dumb these women are. Yet she could not see that she had the exact same issue. Sound familiar?

 

Most people want to believe themselves to be good so bad that they often put themselves in denial about thier own behavior.

 

I dumped my GF, and she completely turned things around. I did'nt have it in me to forgive. I tried, and could'nt.

 

She is married now, and is a completly different person. She hurt me so bad... I know I have not really forgiven her!

 

So I think I can relate to where your at!

[Bobby NoBrains]

Like I said, I have been through this before. It took 2 years for me to just pull the plug! I can honestly say I grew so much during that relationship, I got stronger, and learned to stand for what I want.

 

She was the kind of person who would watch Oprah about women who have anger issues and punch hit and throw items at thier husbands, then poke fun at how dumb these women are. Yet she could not see that she had the exact same issue. Sound familiar?

 

I know what you're saying, and it's sad to have to grow stronger in this manner. Yes, it's familiar, the same behaviour done by me would be bad, and by her would be necessary.

 

Most people want to believe themselves to be good so bad that they often put themselves in denial about thier own behavior.

 

I dumped my GF, and she completely turned things around. I did'nt have it in me to forgive. I tried, and could'nt.

 

She is married now, and is a completly different person. She hurt me so bad... I know I have not really forgiven her!

 

So I think I can relate to where your at!

 

It must be so horrible to know that they could change themselves after you but not while you asked them nicely. Ffs, the unfairness of it all

 

Bobby

[Cobra_X30]

Well, she did change after we split. Begged for another shot for months, but my heart was hard. She is and was a great woman! Her current husband is a nasty piece of work, but I can still see where she has made those changes permanent. Funny how she married someone twice as bad as she ever was.

 

Anyway! I'm telling you that sometimes throwing in the towel isnt the best move!

 

I'm a vindictive, vengeful, arse! Don't walk my path.

[Bobby NoBrains]

Just read the whole post all over again and wanted to say a couple of things.

 

I feel that the idea of reconciling should make me happy because of the amount of time we've been together. Only it doesn't. It makes me sad, makes me feel like I'm just settling for more of the same cr@p because I'm too afraid to make any changes in my life, because I'm too afraid to take the "risk" of being single again. It's not a good place to be. And it doesn't say much for my state of mind regarding reconciliation.

 

Cobra_X30, perhaps if I'd still been in the dating or even early relationship phase, things would have been over and I, too, wouldn't look back. I suppose it's only because of a ten year history and a young son, it's like there's a responsibility that I don't do anything in a hurry.

 

I'm gonna give this some more time while I also work on my own happiness from the inside. I'm also gonna try IC. Perhaps ask for MC, though I dunno about that. I'm still not able to spend time with her in an amicable way, there's too much discomfort and tension. Maybe with time the situation will improve and maybe it won't ... Let's see.

 

Thanks to everyone for all the time and energy devoted to the replies, I really appreciate the insight and tips suggested by all of you.

 

Bobby

[dropdeadlegs]

IC should be helpful in making the right decision for you, Bobby.

 

This is one of those life changing situations, and as such, kudos to you for not taking it lightly. At some point you will be absolutely certain of the right decision and path to pursue. I dare say that either choice won't be an "easy" one.

 

Best wishes.

[michaelk]

Bobby,

 

I've just read through this thread, and especially the things you've written. It sounds to me like you know what you need to do. You're just making sure you've thought it all through before closing the door for good. And that's great, because whichever path you take you want it to be the best thing for you and your son, and you want to do it without guilt or second-guessing yourself.

 

I can only contribute a couple of small things to your thought process. First, I would never stay with someone who didn't respect me. Even if someone doesn't like the things you do or say, they can still respect you as a human being and treat you accordingly. Yet you say that your W, who is supposed to love you, can't even treat you with respect. She must feel she really settled when she married you, and why would you want to be with a person who felt that way?

 

Second, from my own experience I can tell you that individual counseling or therapy is a great way to examine yourself, your situation, and gain perspective that will guide you as you move forward.

 

Think about what will make you happy. It sounds like you could benefit from some happiness for a change.

 

MK

[luvstarved]

Bobby, your responses to others on this board and your thread here shows that you are caring thoughtful and intelligent. Forget forty and bald. You should be able to work a good relationship with someone, it's not all over no matter what happens with your current situation.

 

I agree with many of the posts...on the one hand, ten years is a lot to throw away and there is a child, and we are only hearing your point of view, but on the other hand, if it is not in your heart to continue trying with your W, then you are not doing anyone involved any favors by delaying the inevitable.

 

I will just add a book recommendation. It is called The New Rules of Marriage by Terrence Real. Your W would probably like it as it begins, "Women! You are not crazy! You are right!"

 

There is a theme in there that the ground rules are different these days and many are still trapped in traditional thinking and that women need more from men and need to help men learn how to give it. HOWEVER, it is not really siding wth women, so don't be put off by that angle. It talks about losing and winning communication strategies and where we all tend to gravitate in a communication continuum. Most importantly for my H and I, it really says, there is generally not an objective truth in relationships. There is her reality and his reality. The idea is to listen to and validate each other's reality with full respect. My H and I have found that when we do this, we discover that we aren't really the a-holes we think each other are...and it has helped us tremendously.

 

My H 6 months ago would not only not accept blame but was wildly eager to dish it out. There are still areas we are working out (sex!) but things are LIGHT YEARS away from the misery we were in such a short time ago.

 

As a simple example...say you were five minutes late for an appointment. Maybe you were in traffic, whatever. Your W is furious and says you are 15 minutes late. You want to say, "Christ! It is only 5 minutes and it wasn't my fault!" BUT...think again. IF she is thinking of you as 15 minutes late, AND is further thinking that this indicates that being on time is not important to you and that you do not respect her enough to get there on time, THEN you can understand...well, if she thinks I am disrespecting her, then I can understand her being angry. So, instead of defending yourself and deciding she is an unrelenting shrew, you just say "well I can see how it would make you angry if you thought I was disrespecting you, that was not my intention, but I will try harder in future to be on time". Pretty much the conflict ends there. Now that sounds kind of fakey and my H in the beginning thought, well, we can't talk like that, but when you put yourself in the mindset of understanding the other person's reality...it does work.

 

The other gem that worked for us is, "always remember who you are talking to...this is not the ef-up at the body shop, it is the person you are supposed to love and cherish above all".

 

This has probably saved not only my M but the well being of my kids as well, who were headed for some troubles with this toxic marriage in the house. Yeah, we get upset at things and we still fall into times of "No YOU are full of s**t" "No YOU are full of s**t" but fewer and farther between. Right now, we have come to a pretty decent state of mutual respect and civility and are now embarking on the next phase: enhanced intimacy.

 

I recommend this book wholeheartedly even if it can only apply to a future relationship for you. It is great food for thought. I just did a workship with the author and found him to fan-effin-tastic.

 

Well, FWIW...I wish you luck and happiness whatever your decision...

[Bobby NoBrains]

dropdeadlegs, michaelk, luvstarved, thanks for writing in. Appreciate the support.

 

Nothing really new to report. Couple days ago wife asked if I would like to go to a movie with her and son and I declined. I was just not comfortable with the idea of spending time with her. I realized that my son will miss out on a family program, but I dunno what to do. The idea of spending time with her annoys me atm.

 

I think our son gets lonely sometimes with only one parent in the house wherever he is. Family helps but it's not the same thing as having his own parents together. It makes me feel sad. I still am not able to generate feelings for the wife and I don't think anything is gonna happen soon enough.

 

On the other hand, I'm lonely sometimes but not hassled so that's a good thing imho. Used to be like I didn't want to come home, now it's like I want to go home as early as possible so I can spend time with my son, or at least there's nothing to keep me away from home. But passing time is still a problem. It does get lonely sometimes, especially weekends, when son is with wife, but then I read something or play some computer games and pass the time.

 

Oh well, picked a hand, have to play it

 

Bobby

[Bobby NoBrains]

I've taken a break from forums for a while, just getting my act together while I was away. Things have moved along. I'm in a much better place mentally and emotionally regarding my situation.

 

We're talking regularly, but if it's more than a few words at a time it goes into arguments, so that's still a minus. I'm calmer now, since the initial "rage" has worn off. But still not able to get along with her. She says I'm being negative about things and not giving her a chance. But I only see her talking the talk and not really walking the walk. I suppose she is trying to change, but unless it translates into some serious action I may not recognize it (or maybe I don't want to ?) Still don't know where we are headed.

 

The separation continues. It's about 7 months now and she visits more often. Our son does not go over to spend time with her on weekends now, she comes over and spends time with us. But it's still pretty uncommunicative between the two of us. We don't talk much unless we argue, then it gets bitter very fast. I don't resent her strongly any more as I did a few months ago, so that's a good thing I suppose. But there are also no strong feelings *for* her either, and that is a big minus. I still don't know whether I am hoping to get back with her again, or I'm just waiting to move on. Sorting out things like this needs time, or maybe I'm just a wuss

 

We did go out a couple times, things were pleasant for the duration, like we'd made a temporary peace. But after that, it's back to square one. I'm still confused about what I want, and sometimes feel like I'm sending out mixed signals to her also, which I don't intend to do. But as long as I'm not sure about things in my own mind, I don't know where I will be able to take things. I don't want things to be the way they were. And I don't want to get back together as such. But I still haven't taken any steps to end this, so what am I doing here ? Maybe it's just the fear of the unknown or maybe it's just hesitation, I'm not sure myself.

 

Just thought I'd post again and get everyone up to date. Will come back with some more as soon as I can.

 

Bobby