How long is "til death do us part" ?

[Bobby NoBrains]

I've been reading a lot of posts where the opinion is that once you've said your vows you're in it "til death do us part". I also strongly believe that in every relationship each person has a choice of how they will behave in the relationship, whether their behaviour will contribute to the relationship or whether it will be destructive to the relationship.

 

In view of this, given that many spouses continue to be abusive to the relationship out of choice, whether it is making an active (or passive) choice to do the following - to not communicate, to misbehave, to commit financial mis-management, to actually abuse physically or mentally or emotionally, to cheat, to ignore the basic needs of the partner, to ignore the basic needs of every relationship which is dignity and respect, etc., how long should you continue to put up with some kind of abuse before you decide that you don't want to wait for death to do you apart ?

 

How long is it until you decide you can't continue to remain in an abusive relationship ?

 

Bobby

[Lyssa]

Wow! BNB - it's like you read my mind or something. I was just thinking of posting a thread on this because of late, a few of my friends are getting married and I asked them some of the Qs you asked above and none could come up with any answers except the only thing that would make them not wait for "death do us part" is when one of them cheats.

 

I haven't given M a thought before because of what happened in my past but after spending more and more time with my bros & sisters-in-law, I find it appealing. I would probably get married when I am ready. With that said, I would make my M work no matter what. Whatever it takes, I would do it but if there just isn't anything my H or I can do about the situation then maybe it is best to let it go.

[Trialbyfire]

"Til death do us part" covers reasonable treatment of your spouse. When one spouse checks out, the other also has the right to do so without perpetuating some form of reciprocal abuse.

 

Why anyone would remain in an abusive relationship, nvm marriage, defeats me. Love is never enough and when one partner enacts abuse on the other, love isn't mutually given.

[DazedandConfused66]

to not communicate, to misbehave, to commit financial mis-management, to actually abuse physically or mentally or emotionally, to cheat, to ignore the basic needs of the partner, to ignore the basic needs of every relationship which is dignity and respect, etc., how long should you continue to put up with some kind of abuse before you decide that you don't want to wait for death to do you apart ?

 

I guess it depends on the particular vows you take when you marry, but the "till death do us part" part is the "duration" part of the vows. Everything you just covered was also part of the vows my wife and I exchanged 20 years ago. At about our fifth wedding anniversary, I took our vows and had it turned into a picture along with a wedding photo of the two of us. It hangs in our kitchen. My wife and I have had many, many arguments over the years...I think most couples do. But everytime we've reached an impasse of any kind, we have both pulled that picture down and repeated the vows to one another again. To us, the vows were just that....promises that we intended to keep to one another for the rest of our lives. We are in the middle of the "sickness and in health" part and have been thru almost all the other trials you could imagine. I was tempted to cheat a few times in the relationship, never did, but only because I realized that working on the needs I was missing in the relationship was the better course. It's easier to cheat than to work at making things right with your spouse, which is why so many people cheat in the first place I think.

 

But the "till death do us part," that's just the destination. It's really the least important part of the vows IMHO. Everything you just promised is what's important. Some people will be married 50 years before that death occurs. Others may only live 10 months before the marriage ends in one partner dying. But it's HOW you live the marriage that's important.

[Bobby NoBrains]

But the "till death do us part," that's just the destination. It's really the least important part of the vows IMHO. Everything you just promised is what's important. ... But it's HOW you live the marriage that's important.

 

You're suggesting a person should continue to suffer abuse just because he/she took vows ? Even if the partner was refusing or unwilling to change the abusive behaviour ? Just put up with it ? Cause vows are made on the basis of reciprocation, if one person doesn't keep his/her promises is the other person bound to keep his/hers ?

 

 

Or am I being too hasty in taking a stand ? You say yourself that HOW is important, but if the partner does not do his/her share, then where do you go ?

 

Bobby

[Lizzie60]

I always say : 'Till death do us part' or 'Five years whichever comes first'

 

I do not believe in marriage... (except for financial reasons on rare occasions)

 

How long would I put up with an abusive spouse... Not very long... If he shows no sign of trying to help himself... I'M out... it's that simple...

 

I would rather be alone than with an azzhole. Life is too short... and there are zillion of men out there...

[Tony T]

Is there any real point in trying to figure this out? Every person is different. A LOT of people who claim they are are in very good marriages cheat on their spouses..for something different...or whatever, and then the marriage ends.

 

I don't think you should put up with abuse very long. If you're married to someone who has lost respect for you and who will not treat you properly despite your requests for him or her to do so...then it's time to call it quits. There is no marriage if one or the other ceases to respect the partner.

 

People shouldn't put up with abuse in any relationship at all. Life is way too short.

 

But don't get the idea that bad marriages are the only ones susceptible to ending. Life is complicated.

[DazedandConfused66]

You're suggesting a person should continue to suffer abuse just because he/she took vows ? Even if the partner was refusing or unwilling to change the abusive behaviour ? Just put up with it ? Cause vows are made on the basis of reciprocation, if one person doesn't keep his/her promises is the other person bound to keep his/hers ?

 

 

Or am I being too hasty in taking a stand ? You say yourself that HOW is important, but if the partner does not do his/her share, then where do you go ?

 

Bobby

 

Of course not Bobby. But your very definition indicates that at least ONE person in the relationship has already broken the vows "to love, honor and provide" by being abusive to the other. Marriage vows are a two-party committment. If one person is dismissive of them, then the committment is in breach and any remedy, including divorce, is justified.

 

Now I do believe that if one party breaks the vows and beats the other that the victim in that scenario has an obligation to TRY and remedy the situation, be it via joint counseling, legal intervention or whatever. How many times do they offer this kind of forgiveness? I think that's a personal decision and entirely at the discretion of the victim in your scenario. I have known couples where the man got involved in drugs and alcohol abuse and became very abusive towards the woman. She kicked him out of the house the first time it happened and demanded he go to detox and try to earn her trust again. This happened 4-5 times until he "got clean" and she kept at it. She wouldn't let him near her or the kids until he had been clean for several months. They've been married 22 years now, this ate up at least 5 of those years. He's been clean for the past 7. Would I have endured that kind of behavior and allowed him to redeem himself? I'm not sure. But she did and they have, by all accounts, a very good marriage now. He and she are both highly active with the local woman's shelter and he speaks quite often as a "testimony" to how bad drugs and alcohol abuse can get. I think it depends entirely on the behavior of the person who did the abuse...their remorse, their willingness to make amends, etc. But should a person stay in a marriage where they are threatened with death every single day just for the sake of the vows? Nope...those vows meant nothing to the perpetrator, so they are free to leave them.

 

Marriage vows are only vows when BOTH parties take them seriously. This is my primary issue. People tend to view the vows as legal entity and not a committment. They tend to say "my partner screwed up and so I'm justified in throwing the vows away myself." They are designed to be lived, not just said and forgotten. And they are two-party. You have a committment to not just LIVE the vows, but also to FORGIVE when the other party violates them. Maybe forgive repeatedly. But again, that's a personal choice as to how many times.

 

Let me turn the question around to you. Take the "in sickness and in health" line. If your spouse has a serious illness that basically disables them from performing their vows to you, do you divorce them? They aren't doing their share, they've broken the vows. Maybe not because they WANTED to break them, but they've still broken them. Your needs aren't being met. And what if they are repeatedly sick? What if it's a mental illness and not a physical one, a mental illness that causes them to perform all kinds of terrible behaviors. Do you break the vows then?

 

The best advice I ever got about marriage came from a woman who had been married for 55 years at the time she gave it to me. She told me that in a marriage, if each spouse devotes at LEAST 51% of their time focusing on the needs and desires of the other, you both get EXACTLY what you need. She didn't say you have to ignore your own needs entirely. She simply said that you now must learn to give just a little bit more to focusing on your spouse's needs and trust that they are doing likewise for you. That's a vow in action. That's how marriage should and can be.

[Bobby NoBrains]

Thanks for a very enlightening answer ... You've certainly made me think.

 

The point I was making was mostly if one person in the relationship chose to be abusive in some way and intentionally or un-intentionally did not correct the behaviour even though it was asked to be modified, i.e. even after it was brought to the notice of the "offender" that their actions were harming the relationship irreparably. I can understand sickness and health because that is something so fundamentally out of one's control. But changing of learned or conditioned behaviour is not outside the control of the concerned person. And if a person refused to change even though the demand to change was logical, necessary and not against their interest, the constant refusal to change can only be taken as a more severe form of abuse. So the question was "how long do you take it before you want out?".

 

I understand from your answer that you're saying it's a personal thing about your own threshold of putting up with some form of abuse. I've personally been in what I felt was an abusive relationship which I've chosen to step out of, while my partner feels that she didn't cheat on me, so there's nothing that can't be solved and there should not be refusal to reconcile. I'm saying I don't want to go back to an abusive relationship, and promises of change are worthless when there's years of inaction built up as proof that nothing is going to change.

 

So I was just trying to get some feedback on what would be different people's thresholds against abuse, or if there's some kinda benchmark.

 

Bobby

[Kasan]

 

 

I understand from your answer that you're saying it's a personal thing about your own threshold of putting up with some form of abuse. I've personally been in what I felt was an abusive relationship which I've chosen to step out of, while my partner feels that she didn't cheat on me, so there's nothing that can't be solved and there should not be refusal to reconcile. I'm saying I don't want to go back to an abusive relationship, and promises of change are worthless when there's years of inaction built up as proof that nothing is going to change.

 

So I was just trying to get some feedback on what would be different people's thresholds against abuse, or if there's some kinda benchmark.

 

Bobby

 

When I said my vows, they were just words to me....archaic words at the very least. I didn't really think about what the vows really meant until the past year, 32 years into the marriage.

 

So I guess I am saying I wouldn't have let the vows stop me from leaving a man who either abused or cheated on me. I would have no patience with that, nor would I give him a second chance.

 

I take the vows (internal voice) that I make with myself very seriously and I really make an effort to not break them or let them be broken by anyone else.

[OpenBook]

if one person in the relationship chose to be abusive in some way and intentionally or un-intentionally did not correct the behaviour even though it was asked to be modified, i.e. even after it was brought to the notice of the "offender" that their actions were harming the relationship irreparably.

 

My perspective -- they broke their vows to Love Honor and Cherish. Therefore, I am not under any obligation to continue to honor my own vows to them. All bets are off.

[Cobra_X30]

What are we condsidering abuse?

[Bobby NoBrains]

What are we condsidering abuse?

 

The following, or any combination of them.

 

... to not communicate, to misbehave, to commit financial mis-management, to actually abuse physically or mentally or emotionally, to cheat, to ignore the basic needs of the partner, to ignore the basic needs of every relationship which is dignity and respect, etc. ...

 

 

I know as far as it relates to me, there's no issues of cheating in our marriage, but the rest of it have been there in bits and parts, perhaps from both sides, save one or two things which I've never done, and one or two that she's never done. Sorry to make this a little personal, but I was just trying to get a little perspective with relation to what's happening in my life.

 

Bobby

[Mustang Sally]

I know as far as it relates to me, there's no issues of cheating in our marriage, but the rest of it have been there in bits and parts, perhaps from both sides, save one or two things which I've never done, and one or two that she's never done. Sorry to make this a little personal, but I was just trying to get a little perspective with relation to what's happening in my life.

Bobby -

Why don't you tell us what exactly is troubling you with your own M? It's more likely to result in better feedback than talking in the abstract.

 

And as far as the iniquities that you have listed and stated have been present from time to time, on both sides, in your M...well, I think there are very few M's that do not contain periodic "mistreatment," if you will, of one spouse or the other - we are all just people, at the end of the day, after all, no?

[Cobra_X30]

Well, can we agree that in almost every marriage some of those offenses will be committed at one point or another?

 

What level of commitment are we supposed to have in a marriage? If our needs are not met for a month... do we then leave? Maybe a year? Where is the line?

 

Oh, You left your two cents in another thread... Here I'm just going to hand them back to you.

[Bobby NoBrains]

Well, can we agree that in almost every marriage some of those offenses will be committed at one point or another?

 

What level of commitment are we supposed to have in a marriage? If our needs are not met for a month... do we then leave? Maybe a year? Where is the line?

 

Oh, You left your two cents in another thread... Here I'm just going to hand them back to you.

 

That's precisely what I was trying to get from all of you ... Where is the line ? You're very welcome to drop in as much of your wisdom as you can

 

 

Bobby -

Why don't you tell us what exactly is troubling you with your own M? It's more likely to result in better feedback than talking in the abstract.

 

And as far as the iniquities that you have listed and stated have been present from time to time, on both sides, in your M...well, I think there are very few M's that do not contain periodic "mistreatment," if you will, of one spouse or the other - we are all just people, at the end of the day, after all, no?

 

 

It's the fact that we're all just people that has me confused about whether I'm doing the right thing or whether I'm just being selfish.

 

Regarding my own marriage, I say that I'm equally responsible because I know that there's two people in a relationship and neither one can be said to be solely responsible for everything that happens, except in the very rarest of cases. Therefore, in my case I say I am equally responsible.

 

However, it is also true that wherever I was told I was wrong and where I could make an improvement, I did it. I made the changes (or tried to) in my behaviour, in my personality, in my actions, in my habits. However, from the stand that my wife has taken with me, my wife was never wrong throughout 10 years of marriage, and it was all my fault because I didn't understand her or her needs, and all the issues were because of me, or my habits or my family or my being alive. She was unable to stand by me in my times of difficulty or stress and it was always me against the problems and her on top of it, rather than having her beside me against the problems like it should have been. Everything that I did was never enough. What happened was that I was turning into this unreasonable, hard, unhappy person who was always angry and, in return, abusive in my behaviour towards her. By the end of it I couldn't take it any more and asked her to move out, which she did.

 

Now she says she misses me and realizes what we had was nice (suddenly after 10 years, ffs ?) and that she wants me back in her life the way I was. By now all feelings I have for her are dead or almost so, and I don't want to go back to that kind of life again. It's been 4 months of trial separation and I don't see any changes in my feelings about getting back together. I'm lonely, frustrated and don't know what the heck to do with my time when I'm home, esp when my son is spending time with her, but I still don't wanna go back to the old situation, or even to try to make things the same again.

 

So am I being selfish ? Or a coward ? Or just taking the easy way out ?

When do I get to say that I've had enough ? Or do I get to say it at all ?

 

Which is where the question started from. I don't want to sound like I'm asking for validation of my stand. I'm just wondering whether I'm being unfair in all this or whether I'm making too much out of these issues and I should just bow my head again and reconcile with her ? I know for a fact that I have no feelings for her at this point. How does it even help to have any kind of relationship without that ? I'd be denying both of us the basic thing required for any relationship, i.e. feelings and intimacy.

 

Some of the posts have made me do a think and a re-think and I was asking for more views on what courses of action are open to such a situation or would be considered fair in such a situation.

 

Sorry to be so long-winded, but there's a lot of hurt and pain where all this is coming from and even without going into a lot of the details, I know that it wasn't a good 10 years, and perhaps the only good thing we really achieved is that we have our son, who is a wonderful loving child in spite of having two unhappy people for parents. I know this is only one side of the story, but wth, right now I'm thinking about myself first.

 

Heh, that's enough whining for now

 

Bobby

[Cobra_X30]

Bobby,

 

So, MS basically beat me to my point. Every marriage... every relationship has bad times.

 

We really are not talking about feelings here, because you can forgive... you can let go of the resentment and the past.

 

It boils down to this one question. Can you trust that she will change... and change forever not just six months or 3 years?

 

I dont think you will get that change without marriage counseling, she needs to hear from others that she has issues! I'd say more than anything.... she didnt respect you. Does that sound accurate?

[Bobby NoBrains]

...she didnt respect you. Does that sound accurate?

 

That really must have been one huge part of the problems. And we tried counseling. First with her parents, who pointed out that it was her fault and she agreed to change. Then with MC, same thing. We tried that with three different counselors. But then there would be no changes and she would refuse to go in for any further counseling. There's loads more that happened but how do I put 10 years into words ? That's when I gave up. I don't want to invest more of my life into something that is not getting me even basic dignity out of the relationship. And I know she'll never change however much she says she will. It is my opinion (cause I'm not God), that she can never change because that is who she is. And though she has a lot of good qualities that I love and respect her for, unfortunately she doesn't feel the way about me. And now I don't want to try any more.

 

So again, when is it time to say "Enough!", or is it ever ?

 

Bobby

[Cobra_X30]

That really must have been one huge part of the problems. And we tried counseling. First with her parents, who pointed out that it was her fault and she agreed to change. Then with MC, same thing. We tried that with three different counselors. But then there would be no changes and she would refuse to go in for any further counseling. There's loads more that happened but how do I put 10 years into words ? That's when I gave up. I don't want to invest more of my life into something that is not getting me even basic dignity out of the relationship. And I know she'll never change however much she says she will. It is my opinion (cause I'm not God), that she can never change because that is who she is. And though she has a lot of good qualities that I love and respect her for, unfortunately she doesn't feel the way about me. And now I don't want to try any more.

 

So again, when is it time to say "Enough!", or is it ever ?

 

Bobby

 

Ive been there! 2 years... I did everything to gain respect... then I started demanding it.

 

It comes down to expectations! Does she have trouble with other poeple in her life not living up to her expectations... or is it just you?

[PollyIvy]

It is a good question. Lots of people are very comfortable with 'abuses' like beatings or infidelity, because they are concrete. (although not in the same category IMO). Financial woes can be concrete too, if the abuse is flagrant enough.

 

But what about verbal and emotional stuff? Everyone takes SOME frustrations out on their spouse, everyone has moods, etc. What is normal, and what is 'abuse'? If your spouse is depressed or totally stressed, s/he is certainly not going to respond to any of your emotional needs, so does that mean s/he is 'abusing' you emotionally? How long is it permissible to go on for? A week? 3 months? A year?

 

At what point are you supporting your partner through a rough time, or selfishly abandoning him/her, or taking abuse that you shouldn't be taking?

[PollyIvy]

Eek - by 'comfortable' I meant that people don't feel confused in their opinions about these things. I didn't mean that it's a cozy, comfy feeling to be beaten up...

[Mustang Sally]

As if it is not obvious from most of my past posts (on this thread and others), I will again state that I believe a M to consist of TWO people. Therefore, TWO people have the responsiblilty (potentially in varying degress) for the M at ALL times.

 

If it is going well, TWO people have contributed to the wellness.

 

If it is going poorly, TWO people have caused it's demise.

 

It sounds to me as if your W was unable to shoulder any of the responsibility for the M.

That is inappropriate, in my view.

 

If she is missing you, she may be missing that you were able to accept full responsibility and give her none! Ever thought of that?

 

Or maybe she has woken up and is now willing to be an active participant in the R with you?

 

Either way, if you are not up for it, that is your perogative. You are not evil, or wrong for whatever you now decide is ok for you.

[Kasan]

Bobby,

 

Ten years is a long time and you both loved each other at one time. You have said that you have done the work but she hasn't.

 

I believe that people can change if they are truly motivated. Cobra made a great point about expectations. We need to demand more of yourselves and also of others. So, the question is, have you demanded from her? Have you really told her what your expectations would be should you decide to reconcile?

 

So the next question would be are you open to reconciling if she would try to meet your expectations? You could give the reconciliation a time frame.

 

I don't think that anyone should be a martyr to a marriage, but I do believe that no stone should be left unturned before you call it quits. It's really important here, you have a son.

 

Love can also be rekindled but not if there is anger and resentment. I guess you need to ask yourself the hard questions here....what do you want, what are you willing to do, how much are you willing to put up with, and how much more time do you want to invest?

 

Rough times in a marriage can sometimes last a long time and though you get tired of banging your head against a brick wall I have found if you can ride it out the marriage gets stronger.

[Bobby NoBrains]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply. I'm still thinking about all the advice so far. I'm a bit slow when I go into thinking mode, heh.

 

I don't want to reconcile. I'm just thinking whether I should. Having taken the decision to get out from that situation, it's like I've become free (which is really nothing too exciting cause I'm almost forty and bald, and I'm not fat only cause I've lost 30 pounds in the last one year of our hassles, hehe). Now I don't want to get trapped again. My dad has been advising me to go see a counselor for the stress and my inflexible attitude about this situation so far. But at the end of the day, there's no motivation to reconcile, or rather the fear is more than the motivation. Which means I'm prolly just still too sensitive about everything that has happened to be really objective about it. Anyways, still taking it one day at a time ... Let's see ...

 

Bobby

[dropdeadlegs]

That's precisely what I was trying to get from all of you ... Where is the line ?

Where to draw the line and ones tolerance for anything are obviously too personal for there to be a black and white answer.

By now all feelings I have for her are dead or almost so, [/b]and I don't want to go back to that kind of life again. It's been 4 months of trial separation and I don't see any changes in my feelings about getting back together. I'm lonely, frustrated and don't know what the heck to do with my time when I'm home, esp when my son is spending time with her, but I still don't wanna go back to the old situation, or even to try to make things the same again.

 

So am I being selfish ? Or a coward ? Or just taking the easy way out ?

When do I get to say that I've had enough ? Or do I get to say it at all ?

 

I know for a fact that I have no feelings for her at this point. How does it even help to have any kind of relationship without that ? I'd be denying both of us the basic thing required for any relationship' date=' i.e. feelings and intimacy.[/b']

I don't want to reconcile. I'm just thinking whether I should.

Feeling this way would not be productive for a reconciliation. I'm not saying that you are selfish, maybe you really have just had enough, and as an equal partner, you do have the right to have say in when enough is enough. At the end of the day, you have to be comfortable in feeling that you gave your all and didn't simply throw in the towel at the first sign of trouble. If you can do that, then I think you have your answer.

 

With effort and some positive changes I think that your feelings could return if there is any feeling left for her at all. It's a possibility, but it won't happen quickly and will require a lot of real forgiveness. Kind of like agreeing to start with a clean slate and seeing what is written on it over time.

 

With 10 years invested, many of those years you describe as unhappy, can you afford to invest one more? Or was last year that final investment and now it's time to cash out and accept your losses?

 

Now I don't want to get trapped again. My dad has been advising me to go see a counselor for the stress and my inflexible attitude about this situation so far. But at the end of the day, there's no motivation to reconcile, or rather the fear is more than the motivation. Which means I'm prolly just still too sensitive about everything that has happened to be really objective about it. Anyways, still taking it one day at a time ... Let's see ...Bobby

 

Of course you don't want things to be "the same" nor to feel trapped. Going back to being the same would be perpetuating the scenario that led to the separation. I would be afraid of that, too.

 

You do have some choices concerning counseling. If you reconciled, you could make marriage counseling a requirement of reconciliation. Either she agrees to commit to it for at least a year (or whatever time frame you think is best) or you walk.

 

I do think that individual counseling would be beneficial to you no matter how this proceeds. There is so much change going on, and those changes are stressful. During the transition it helps to have someone to talk to, and that's best done before it gets overwhelming.

 

Bobby, this is a tough crossroads you are at and there will be many choices no matter what direction you choose to take. I wonder if you are unsure about which way to go, or if the outside forces are making you feel that you should be choosing a different path? Remember that those forces might walk alongside you for some time, but that ultimately you are the one wearing the shoes that hurt and don't quite fit. Maybe they'll eventually break in, and maybe you just need a new pair of shoes.

 

Best wishes to you in your dilemma.