Dark Days Ahead

[johan]

Johan, when you open up emotionally to someone who is also open, does it get excruciatingly unpleasant for you? Do you enjoy the feelings associated with long-term intimacy and a deeply reciprocated emotional connection, or does it make you want to jump out of your skin?

 

I've had women open up to me, and I've run from them. Sometimes it's because their opening up reveals the kind of relationship they want. Sometimes it's not what I want. In those cases, yes, it gets unpleasant.

 

On the other hand, I've had other women open up to me with whom I felt very comfortable. There was nothing to run from. So I'd say no, I have no serious fear of closeness or of commitment.

 

Loving someone while you're chasing them is easy, but what about when they turn around and face you, and there you are, just the two of you. Is that scary?

 

Part of the reason for chasing someone you're interested in, is because you do want to get to know them. People are often hard to get to know when they are running from you. Sometimes you only get to know them after they've stopped running. Sometimes you get to know them during the chase. Either way, you have to get to know them before you can decide.

 

Do you feel frustrated and empty most of the time? Could it be because you are starving but when real food is presented to you, you can't stomach it, and you push it away time and time again?

 

I've never been the type to just date around. I've always been more into establishing long-term relationships. I am, however, more willing to push someone away than I used to be. I'm less willing to sell myself short than I used to be. And I'm more instinctive about women than I used to be. But that all is more about what I've learned from my relationships than it is an ingrained behavior.

 

All of which leads to my next question: did someone in your childhood make you ashamed of what you felt, or who you are? Look beneath the surface on this question.

 

I've given this kind of stuff a lot of thought over the years. I don't see much correlation between how I feel in relationships and how I was raised. I think I'm pretty introspective, and I've never found anything major there.

[Green]

oh man im having a darkday right now im not getting any sleep big Deadline tommorow, Im going to make it butt darn I may only get 4 hours of sleep if even that,, and ive been getting little sleep the past 2 days in a row so this makes 3, but I get to sleep in thursday morning so if I can avoid killing myself till then I should be fine

[dropdeadlegs]

Johan,

 

At what frequency do the dark, self loathing times occur? Is there any correlation with the timing of the episodes and something in the past?

 

I know that will be hard to answer since most of us don't keep "record" of these things.

 

I'm not one to keep a journal, but I can see the usefulness of one in many ways. Unfortunately the perfect journal would involve so much info, it would be impossible to maintain. Or there would be the medical journal, the food journal, the feelings journal, etc.

 

Maybe a review of your LS posts would help to clarify how often you feel this way.

 

I know you are into physical fitness and healthy eating. During the darker times, are you continuing your normal level of exercise and diet?

 

I only ask because in my dark days, I sleep as much as possible, or barely at all, and have no appetite. Of course this surely contributes to the length of the episodes.

 

I hope you are staving off the impending darkness as best as you are able. How was your day?

[johan]

oh man im having a darkday right now im not getting any sleep big Deadline tommorow, Im going to make it butt darn I may only get 4 hours of sleep if even that,, and ive been getting little sleep the past 2 days in a row so this makes 3, but I get to sleep in thursday morning so if I can avoid killing myself till then I should be fine

 

For over two weeks I've been having a hard time getting enough sleep. Either I go to bed too late or I wake up at weird times at night.

 

Johan,

 

At what frequency do the dark, self loathing times occur? Is there any correlation with the timing of the episodes and something in the past?

 

I know that will be hard to answer since most of us don't keep "record" of these things.

 

I think for me these things are triggered by thoughts. I get down on myself for a while. And I get like you describe, where all my good habits slip. Then I climb out of it and feel in control of everything for a while. Then it all repeats. But I don't think it's a regular cycle.

 

The past few days things have been pretty good.

[Touche]

I've had women open up to me, and I've run from them. Sometimes it's because their opening up reveals the kind of relationship they want. Sometimes it's not what I want. In those cases, yes, it gets unpleasant.

 

On the other hand, I've had other women open up to me with whom I felt very comfortable. There was nothing to run from. So I'd say no, I have no serious fear of closeness or of commitment.

 

I would examine and reflect on the ones who opened up to you...the ones you ran from. What was it you were running from? What were they expecting from you that you felt you couldn't give?

 

As for the ones who opened up to you..those who you didn't run from. Did they expect anything of you emotionally? Or were they themselves somewhat closed off emotionally? Perhaps that's why you didn't run from them?

 

Just something to think about.

[Trialbyfire]

A deep relationship requires emotional intimacy. It's not for everyone. Many men find it difficult to open themselves up to that depth through either lack of experience or terror of being hurt. It's why many men do the bunny hop...well...beyond the normal hormonal stage of their lives.

 

With this terror of being hurt also comes the need to control every aspect of any kind of relationship to an unreasonable degree. OP, look to your earlier posts about control.

 

The sad reality is that the OP appears to crave the emotional intimacy he rejects. On the other hand, perhaps he's only capable of handling physical intimacy.

 

No risk, no return. You can't ask full on intimacy from someone else and then not give it, in return.

[Touche]

The sad reality is that the OP appears to crave the emotional intimacy he rejects. On the other hand, perhaps he's only capable of handling physical intimacy.

 

That's it. Not meaning to pick on you, OP but the above in bold is what I've always suspected about you. It's why I've always said you're your own worst enemy. The very thing you claim to want the most, is the very thing that sends you running the other way.

 

That was exactly my point in my previous post. Start with dealing with that one fact, and you may just end your Dark Days once and for all.

[dropdeadlegs]

For over two weeks I've been having a hard time getting enough sleep. Either I go to bed too late or I wake up at weird times at night.

 

 

 

I think for me these things are triggered by thoughts. I get down on myself for a while. And I get like you describe, where all my good habits slip. Then I climb out of it and feel in control of everything for a while. Then it all repeats. But I don't think it's a regular cycle.

 

The past few days things have been pretty good.

Good to hear that recent days have been going well.

 

Johan, I can completely relate to this. In my case, I still have some self esteem issues that have plagued me my entire life, and I also have periods of mild depression that definitely impact that self esteem (or vice versa?) Lack of sleep and sleep disturbances are indicative of some mild anxiety for me. Even when I logically know that my anxiety is largely unwarranted, I can't seem to emotionally escape it.

 

Like you, I always pick myself up and climb out of these episodes, but it would be wonderful to escape them entirely. I'm sure that is possible, but I lack the discipline (and money) to commit to long term therapy. I have mostly used therapy to climb out of deep, situational ruts, but haven't stuck with it long enough to get to the core of the underlying issues.

 

I have noticed that the sooner I get back to my routine, the better I feel about everything in general, so I have made some progress in shortening the length of the dark days.

 

Take care of yourself and stop thinking so much.

[Trialbyfire]

That's it. Not meaning to pick on you, OP but the above in bold is what I've always suspected about you. It's why I've always said you're your own worst enemy. The very thing you claim to want the most, is the very thing that sends you running the other way.

 

That was exactly my point in my previous post. Start with dealing with that one fact, and you may just end your Dark Days once and for all.

There are two ways to handle this. A person can work on their core fear of having to give emotional intimacy, therefore, exposing themselves to hurt, or they can accept it and find superficial relationships where the only intimacy is physical. With superficial relationships, you can always maintain control.

 

I'm guessing the latter is the way to go for the OP, since it would be far too difficult to change ingrained terror and the need to control, due to the fear.

[Green]

Yeah I survived my dark day, now its time to recoup for the next dark days battle, Getting regular sleep makes life so much better

[dropdeadlegs]

Johan, read through this thread again and you can cancel that psychotherapy appointment. Put your French tutor on notice that you no longer need her, as well.

 

No offense ladies, but while I find a handful of LS posters pretty easy to decipher and place in a "box," I don't see Johan that way. I think he is more complex than someone who is gripped by fear and a need to control.

 

I could be entirely off base, but somehow I think I "get" him in an entirely different way that is difficult to explain.

 

Have any of my posts helped him in any way? Maybe, maybe not, but for some of us, empathy is enough to get through the day.

 

When one is not driven by base emotion, I am sure that it is difficult to understand one who is.

 

Peace to all.

[Touche]

Johan, read through this thread again and you can cancel that psychotherapy appointment. Put your French tutor on notice that you no longer need her, as well.

 

No offense ladies, but while I find a handful of LS posters pretty easy to decipher and place in a "box," I don't see Johan that way. I think he is more complex than someone who is gripped by fear and a need to control.

 

It's not surprising that you would see him as more "complex." You don't know him as well as some of us do.

 

I could be entirely off base, but somehow I think I "get" him in an entirely different way that is difficult to explain.

 

I respect you a lot, DDL. But with all due respect, you don't really "get" him. You have to know someone pretty well to "get" them. And you just don't. Trust me.

 

Have any of my posts helped him in any way? Maybe, maybe not, but for some of us, empathy is enough to get through the day.

 

No. Empathy is not enough for some of us. Some of us need the cold hard truth. Something you can't really give because you don't really know the OP that well. Empathy is nice. It's cozy and sweet. But trust me, in this case, it's not all that helpful.

 

When one is not driven by base emotion, I am sure that it is difficult to understand one who is.

 

Being driven by "base emotion" is not necessarily a way to live nor is it a way to attain happiness. Just look at the OP. It hasn't worked for him, has it? Hence the references to Dark Days ahead.

[Trialbyfire]

ddl, no doubt each person is more complex than two emotions but when you have numerous issues to address, you have to start somewhere.

 

Also, empathy is two-fold. It can help or it can cozen. In taking charge of one's life, the need to be cozened is greatly reduced and replaced with a sense of drive and accomplishment.

[Art_Critic]

You're depressed Johan..

 

Exercise more, stop drinking caffeine and go to sleep at a decent time.

You are a great guy Johan, Some girl just kicked your feet out from under you and has wacked your self esteem..

It will come back.. but you have to help by pushing yourself each time you feel down.. and drop some of the video games for a couple of weeks...

[dropdeadlegs]

Johan, read through this thread again and you can cancel that psychotherapy appointment. Put your French tutor on notice that you no longer need her, as well.

 

No offense ladies, but while I find a handful of LS posters pretty easy to decipher and place in a "box," I don't see Johan that way. I think he is more complex than someone who is gripped by fear and a need to control.

 

It's not surprising that you would see him as more "complex." You don't know him as well as some of us do.

 

Unless you know him personally ( I don't) I don't see the validity of "some of us" knowing him better than others. Yes, you have more time and posts on LS than I do, but that doesn't mean that you "know" anyone any better. We only have posts to base our knowledge on, and I doubt that anyone posts their "whole" being here. I think that my year of "Johan knowledge" puts me in the place to better know if I see him as complex or not.

 

I'm not surprised that you are not surprised by my deduction.

 

I could be entirely off base, but somehow I think I "get" him in an entirely different way that is difficult to explain.

 

I respect you a lot, DDL. But with all due respect, you don't really "get" him. You have to know someone pretty well to "get" them. And you just don't. Trust me.

 

And I certainly respect you, too, Touche, but I go back to my previous words. This passage gives me the impression that you don't like Johan, and I happen to like him. I trust you in so many ways, and appreciate the opinions you have shared with me that made me think. If your posts on this thread made Johan think, I applaud that. If I change my opinion of Johan, you will be the first to hear me say "you were right and I was wrong."

Have any of my posts helped him in any way? Maybe, maybe not, but for some of us, empathy is enough to get through the day.

 

No. Empathy is not enough for some of us. Some of us need the cold hard truth. Something you can't really give because you don't really know the OP that well. Empathy is nice. It's cozy and sweet. But trust me, in this case, it's not all that helpful.

 

I respect that empathy is not enough for all of us, yet based on this thread, I suspect that it is at times enough for Johan. I have reason to believe that it has been helpful, in this case. You have to come out of the dark days to move forward. While i can;t speak for Johan, all of this analysis wouldn't be helpful to me during the darkness.

When one is not driven by base emotion, I am sure that it is difficult to understand one who is.

 

Being driven by "base emotion" is not necessarily a way to live nor is it a way to attain happiness. Just look at the OP. It hasn't worked for him, has it? Hence the references to Dark Days ahead.

 

I took the liberty to place this part of your quote in bold print, as I believe you intended it to be.

 

I cannot deny that a life "driven by "base emotion" is not necessarily a way to live nor is it a way to attain happiness." Yet I also don't think that amateur psychoanalysis is beneficial to anyone who posts. How many posts and reading of threads are required to be considered "LS licensed?" Asking questions that lead one to delve within their soul and possibly desire therapy/a new way of living are surely appropriate, but some of the posts in this thread had me feeling that the room had become far too "clinical"

 

Is Johan happy? I'm guessing not, but simply being here indicates to me that he is trying to become happy, and isn't that a baby step in the right direction? I see that you have your way of trying to help him achieve that happiness and I have my way. Yours is a swift kick in the butt, and mine is more of a gentle prodding that has barely begun.

 

It's up to Johan how helpful any of us are and how to proceed, though. Agreed?

 

Johan, I doubt that any of this exchange has been helpful to you, and I apologize if that is so. I needed to address you in first person at some point in this post.

 

Touche, I realize that my post gave me the last word, but I do not intend to continue back and forth. You get the next word, fair is fair, then we go to PM if further discussion is necessary. I'm already feeling that I should be transferring this to PM now. I don't mean to come off as confrontational, I dislike confrontation, but my previous posts seemed to need clarification. Anything further, I am happy to explain, but I am sure that we could go on ad finitum (sp?) in defense of ourselves.

[Touche]

I'm sorry, DDL that you think this exchange hasn't been helpful to Johan. I disagree. And it's kind of of sad that you think that what was said here was too "clinical" for you. It doesn't matter.

 

The OP knows that some of us know him very well. Better than you know him. And he knows that the things we have to say have nothing to do with being too "clinical" but DO have to do with knowing him...and with having real feelings for him. We're not just blowing crap out of our ass. We know this man. You really don't.

 

You're only guessing.

 

Sorry, DDL, but you have no REAL basis to say the things that you do about him. You're just guessing. And I'm sure that you usually guess right and get it right...but trust me...in this case you have it all wrong. You're barking up the wrong tree, dear.

 

No need to PM me. You're just wrong. Trust me on that one.

[johan]

I haven't seen anyone get it exactly right. I know that those who claim I'm afraid of intimacy are ringing the same bell over and over, and the tune is off. Everyone is afraid of intimacy when it's not right. It's a small part of the story, and it's not even the most interesting part.

 

I think those who claim to have expertise in the subject of me probably just have made it to johan 102, got an A, and feel ready to argue theory. There's are 200 classes, not to mention there's a whole graduate course that I teach. All of which require extensive lab time that is not available in the 100s. For the advanced coursework there's only ever one opening.

[Trialbyfire]

Is there more of yourself that you haven't already revealed? No wonder everyone's confused...

[Touche]

I haven't seen anyone get it exactly right. I know that those who claim I'm afraid of intimacy are ringing the same bell over and over, and the tune is off. Everyone is afraid of intimacy when it's not right. It's a small part of the story, and it's not even the most interesting part.

 

Nope, we're not all afraid of intimacy when it's not right, as you say. Do you even know when it's not right? I don't think you do.

 

I think those who claim to have expertise in the subject of me probably just have made it to johan 102, got an A, and feel ready to argue theory. There's are 200 classes, not to mention there's a whole graduate course that I teach. All of which require extensive lab time that is not available in the 100s. For the advanced coursework there's only ever one opening.

 

Actually you're quite simple really. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of Man 101, wouldn't be baffled by you at all.

[Trialbyfire]

I'm baffled but then if he hasn't exposed all, it's not surprising.

[Touche]

I'm baffled but then if he hasn't exposed all, it's not surprising.

 

Of course he's exposed all. And why should it surprise you that he has?

[Trialbyfire]

Of course he's exposed all. And why should it surprise you that he has?

But he says he hasn't, so I got confused.

[Touche]

But he says he hasn't, so I got confused.

 

Of course you're confused. It's natural. Trust me. The man has exposed himself.

[Spinderella]

Why does everyone WANT TO KNOW JOHAN so much?

Personally, I think Johans problem is that he is rude. I saw several replies made to him that he ignored completely. Most people at least acknowledge a post, even if it hasnt been very helpful to them.

 

Ok I'm being slightly facetious.

 

But since it seems youre sooo popular with the laydies, it doesnt sound like you have much of a problem. Maybe your problem is that all the ladies want to psychoanalyse you.

[lindya]

I haven't seen anyone get it exactly right.

 

I think with that one sentence you're really tapping into the thing that keeps so many women in situations that are bad for them. A desire to understand, that's often pursued at far too much personal cost.

 

Being too empathic. Getting dragged down by the onerous task of expending all kinds of mental and emotional energy trying to understand someone else's inner conflict and unhappiness. Being so keen to understand that you start experiencing those same negative emotions yourself.

 

It's draining for anyone to put themselves in that situation for too long. Even if they're a naturally empathic person. Draining to strive to understand anyone who employs the "you almost get it" carrot and "but not quite" stick.

 

I think if your vision of a relationship involves a woman who really "gets" you, then whichever woman that might be will be almost doomed to feeling like a failure as a human being/girlfriend when you shake your head unhappily, thank her politely for her concern and effort, but tell her that she doesn't quite understand.

 

It's not just you, johan. By no means. This seems to be a recurring theme in a lot of male/female relationships.