Star Gazer Posted September 18, 2007 Posted September 18, 2007 Quoting Nathaniel Brandwn: To be sexually desired, in the context of romantic love, although not necessarily in the context of more casual relationships, is to be seen and wanted for what one is as a person, including what one is as a man or a woman. The essence of the romantic love response is: “I see you as a person, and because you are what you are, I love and desire you, for my happiness in general and my sexual happiness in particular.” If I sleep with a woman I would like to develop a relationship with, it means I see her as a person, and I desire her for who she is as a person, because that person gives me happiness. I desire sex because being intimate in that way makes me feel close to her as a person. It is not the only way to feel close, but ultimately, it comes down to...I see in her values and traits that I admire, that I treasure, and those values and traits, being alive in another person, give me psychological visibility. In a sense it is purely selfish. I want to mutually please her only because her happiness make those values and traits I treasure live in her more fully, and that gives me greater visibility and greater happiness. This makes me feel...all warm inside.
oppath Posted September 18, 2007 Posted September 18, 2007 This makes me feel...all warm inside. Note, I said if I sleep with a woman I would like to start a relationship with. This is the problem that women often run into. And ultimately, it is the point of this thread...some women want to wait to make sure they want and the guy also wants a relationship; how long can guys wait under these circumstances? For me...a couple weeks after I've decided "I am willing to gamble and invest in this woman." If she doesn't feel the same way about me, chances are, we are not meant to be, and keeping myself invested with such a low probability of return has, in my past experiences, burned me. I don't believe a guy's willingness to wait for sex necessarily has anything to do with his interest in you. Despite players and guys lying about their desires/availability, I really feel with better choices, and doing a better job of inquiring into a guys values, can demonstrate the type of guy he is. When things are fun and exciting, however, sometimes people don't make those inquiries.
Trialbyfire Posted September 18, 2007 Posted September 18, 2007 Despite players and guys lying about their desires/availability, I really feel with better choices, and doing a better job of inquiring into a guys values, can demonstrate the type of guy he is. When things are fun and exciting, however, sometimes people don't make those inquiries. Words are so easy for some, while actions tell all. I could fill barns to the roof, full of manure that's been shoveled at me...not that this would be you.
jcster Posted September 18, 2007 Posted September 18, 2007 I guess I'm going to flip this question and ask...how does a woman wait a month for sex? I've never been able to wait that long - if I like someone, I can barely wait a week! Is there some sort of vitamin supplement I can take to dampen my libido? I'd love to string guys along for a while, but I never can develop the motivation.
IpAncA Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 I guess I'm going to flip this question and ask...how does a woman wait a month for sex? I've never been able to wait that long - if I like someone, I can barely wait a week! Is there some sort of vitamin supplement I can take to dampen my libido? I'd love to string guys along for a while, but I never can develop the motivation. You just don't put yourself in a position for it to happen. Pretty simple and this is coming from a sky rocking libido.
Cobra_X30 Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 It's something I haven't paid much attention to in the past but over the years I've taken a closer look at it, due in part to conversations with a couple of very insightful friends of mine. It basically boils down to dating girls who have their shyt together, to put it bluntly. I didn't make that as big of a priority in the past as it should have been. I also didn't have as much self-respect back then as I do now for a number of reasons. It varies a little from girl to girl but that's the gist of it. Perhaps. A girl with low self-esteem is likely to bone down on the first date. But at the same time, just because she does bone down on the first date doesn't mean she necessarily has low self-esteem. And, personally, 90% of girls I've been with have boned down on the first or second date. And, realistically, is there really much difference if it's the first, second, or third date? IMO, it only seems to make a difference if you're talking about first or second date versus waiting a month or more. Hmm... Two points. One, I think overall you are very correct in your observations. Two, its seems we both have had very similar experiences with the more attractive half of humanity. This leads me to ponder why I continue to look for something more... something different.
Darkzen Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 Actually, people that get it out of the way have problems in a different way. If sex is too important, then communication is put to the side. If sex is a requirement for a good relationship, then having lots of it will take away from the time of learning about the person you want sex with. And yes, there is statistics that show that sex is important...but let's use statistics correctly. This is in regards to marriages...not within the first few moths of a relationship. Why pick on the 50s? Actually the fifties was when the sexual revolution began. It kicked in full gear in the sixties. But speaking of statistics, I believe that many websites will show you that cohabitation leads to more divorces than relationships that get married before living together. In fact, google premarital sex and divorce. I think you will find that those who have a lot of sex before marriage don't have better marriages. And this comes not from "religious" websites. Plus those that DO have premarital sex with someone have a greater chance of not getting married to that person. These are statistics...not me. Don't shoot the messenger. So, sex without love is not good. And expecting that sex must be given to you or the relationship is done....well THAT is actually selfish. Not performing sex for a partner because he "requires" it is not only brave but wise for your own long term relationship. Yes, exactly...the point IS to mutually pleasure each other. It is NOT to be given for the pleasure of just one person. It is an expression of love. So you're trying to tell me that people don't expect sex from their SO? It's selfish to want sex from a relationship... dude, what you're describing is friend, not a SO. Nor did I hint at having sex until other factors have been determined, love isn't one of them though. What exactly is love and how do you determine when you're "in" it? Sex is a HUGE part of a relationship. Like I said last post, would you enter a relationship without knowing key things? You're a sucker if you do. Dating isn't a relationship either, it's preliminary or an interview, so to speak. I believe sex should happen somewhere during the dating phase, before a commitment is made. It's only fair to one another. As for communication being put aside in favor of sex... lol. Get a clue my friend. Communication is put aside for many many reasons, the least of them being because you're too busy having sex. Very few people are open about how they feel and what they think. Also, if any factor of a relationship is focused on too much, it can be problematic. That's not a new concept, nor is it a sex only issue. 40's, 50's, 60's who cares. You understood my point. I may not have used the optimal analogy, but it served it's purpose. I wasn't talking statistics either, I was talking science. I.E. When you have sex with someone it produces a certain chemical, which creates a bond with said partner... the more you have sex, the more of the chemical you produce and hence the stronger the bond. In closing, don't assume because I said sex is important and should happen early in a relationship, it means that I put a big importance on sex. I merely put equal importance on sex, as well as the rest of the pieces of a relationship. It seems a lot of people want to downplay it's importance and put the concept of love on some pedestal. Balance is key to a healthy relationship. Even fighting is healthy, as long as it isn't excessive.
IpAncA Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 the more you have sex, the more of the chemical you produce and hence the stronger the bond. The more sex the stronger the bond? Sorry but IMO that's a bunch of crap. What about those who are together with low drives? They can have just as strong of a bond as those who bonk every other night. I know some of you guys don't pitch that...do you? BTW show me some info on that one cause I'd like to see it.
OpenBook Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 Communication is put aside for many many reasons, the least of them being because you're too busy having sex. Very few people are open about how they feel and what they think. Also, if any factor of a relationship is focused on too much, it can be problematic. That's not a new concept, nor is it a sex only issue. Funny, I always thought that sex was actually a form of communication. Men are notoriously hard (excuse the pun) to be coaxed into putting their emotions into words. Sex is a great way to bridge that gap.
Darkzen Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 I was watching National Geographic or a similar station and there was a show on about love and sex. It was from a purely scientific standpoint. I don't remember the exact details, but the basic idea was that when people have sex it produces a chemical in the body, this chemical creates a feeling of attachment between the couple. The more sex a couple has, the stronger the attachment. When I said "the bond", I didn't mean the "only" bond, I meant the attachment bond. Couples with low sex drives probably have a strong bond through other aspects of the relationship (I.E. the emotional bond, the compatibility bond, the insecurity/fear bond, etc...). I don't have to pitch anything. Women are attracted to me, because of many reasons and choose to get intimate, without me having to feed them lines. I wouldn't want a girl who tried to hold her vagina over my head as a power trip anyways. It's amazing how frustrated you make a women, when you hold all the power over sex, in a relationship... simple because you're not a slave to the vagina. To be brutally honest, women are the ones that create this drama over sex. God forbid they enjoy sex and don't make a huge fuss over it... they get labeled sluts or loose. Being stupid about sex is the problem, not liking and wanting to have it. Practice safe sex, don't sleep with people until you know them a little bit and don't be a complete moron. Problem solved. Moderation and balance are the keys to life. Funny, I always thought that sex was actually a form of communication. Men are notoriously hard (excuse the pun) to be coaxed into putting their emotions into words. Sex is a great way to bridge that gap. More of a form of expression, not really communication. You can express feelings during sex, communication is more the sharing of ideas and thoughts, to me anyways.
Author amber1 Posted September 19, 2007 Author Posted September 19, 2007 Not to hijack, but what does everyone think of the Religious "I'm waiting for marriage..." situations? I'm not a religious person, but I really respect that kind of decision. My STBXW had planned on that, but after 8 months of dating, we were just ready. It was the first time for both of us, so it didn't seem that odd to wait that long. When I start dating again, I could wait that long again for the right girl, but some fooling around would be nice just to make sure the chemistry was there. This is actually why I asked the question. I'm not a virgin but I have decided to wait until marriage now due to religious reasons. I just wanted to see how long a guy would wait if he was really into someone who was worth waiting for. Wow, I didn't realize I had created a monster of a thread!
OpenBook Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 Actually, people that get it out of the way have problems in a different way. If sex is too important, then communication is put to the side. If sex is a requirement for a good relationship, then having lots of it will take away from the time of learning about the person you want sex with. And yes, there is statistics that show that sex is important...but let's use statistics correctly. This is in regards to marriages...not within the first few moths of a relationship. I read somewhere (a marriage survey, I think) that the partners tend to rate sex as an "important" or "crucial" factor in the relationship only if they're not getting it. The ones who ARE happy with their sex life, don't think it's a big deal.
Darkzen Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 I read somewhere (a marriage survey, I think) that the partners tend to rate sex as an "important" or "crucial" factor in the relationship only if they're not getting it. The ones who ARE happy with their sex life, don't think it's a big deal. Exactly... just like people consider other things "important" or "crucial", because they don't get it or don't enjoy it. Be it affection, kindness, sex, etc... Loyalty and openness is very important to me personally, probably because my ex cheated on me and wouldn't open up at all (even after nine years). I understand why she did those things though. She had defenses up that made her hurt others before they had a chance to hurt her. Due to her father constantly disappointing/hurting her as a child. Although, that doesn't make it right. I'm also a sucker for sticking around as long as I did, but the romance of "love" blinded me. From my experiences though, sex was good and was never an issue (she had a few hang-ups at first, but we worked through them). We had sex often and frequently, maybe that's why it wasn't an issue? Our issues were in other areas, I believed that she'd come around eventually with enough care and support... needless to say, lesson learned. Now I don't get involved until I see consistent openness, so that the rest of the issues can be worked on. Just because sex wasn't an issue in that relationship, doesn't mean it's something to be overlooked in the future either. If someone can't fathom these concepts, they're not getting a commitment, from me anyways.
Cad Rake Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 Pretty much the only women "waiting until marriage" or even until the 5th date these days are religious chicks. If you do a search on "waiting to have sex with my boyfriend" or something along those lines you will run into a disproportionate number of Christian sites. In fact I was shocked when I did a search on "qualities of a good husband" or something like that and found 4 out of 5 sites that came up were Christian sites. Seems like only religious folks are getting married these days too! I think the whole concept of "waiting" for sex is nonexistent here in 2007 unless you are dating religious chicks. As I said before the VAST majority of women these days are putting out by the 3rd date. At least here in the city. Maybe rural Kansas is different -- of course they're mostly Christians there too. This is mostly a non-issue except for the OP.
Timberlane Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 This is actually why I asked the question. I'm not a virgin but I have decided to wait until marriage now due to religious reasons. I just wanted to see how long a guy would wait if he was really into someone who was worth waiting for. Wow, I didn't realize I had created a monster of a thread! Well, you should probably get involved with a guy who is similarly interested in the religious aspect of abstinence. I cannot fathom mixing religion with sex, and so don't. No offense, but I would never date anyone who made it into a religious issue, either. But I'm an ex-Catholic. Or maybe I never really was Catholic? But not only religious women want to wait. I briefly dated a very nice, artsy girl in another state that wanted to wait. We ended things before the waiting period was over, however. The distance was a problem, of course.
Touche Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 I wouldn't want a girl who tried to hold her vagina over my head You wouldn't? Wow...my H loves when I do that!
Cobra_X30 Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 You wouldn't? Wow...my H loves when I do that! That is the absolute definition of TMI!!!
Touche Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 That is the absolute definition of TMI!!! :laugh:Isn't it though?
oppath Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 Darkzen Quote: I wouldn't want a girl who tried to hold her vagina over my head You wouldn't? Wow...my H loves when I do that! I like it when women do that too...as long as she doesn't expect me to have some kind of Giraffe's neck. I mean, who the hell am I, Inspector Gadget?!? Back to the OP, amber, if this is a religious issue, that needs to be told upfront. Since I am not religious I wouldn't be able to wait because I would take it as a sign our values and beliefs are too incompatible, even if we get along great, for a relationship to work. If I were dating a girl for a couple months, being patient, and then she were to reveal to me she didn't want to have sex until marriage for religious reasons, I'd be pissed and out the door. The reason isn't so much the sex itself, but the reasons behind it. You would have been withholding information about your values that could have allowed me to make an informed decision if you were someone I wanted to invest in. I would feel taken advantage of, if not manipulated, if a girl kept dating me, and I wanted sex but was patient, only to find out it was because of religious intent. I'd say you need to somehow get that out there on the first 3 dates. You will be rejected by men for it. But ultimately, you'll just be weeding out people whose values dis-align with yours.
Touche Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 oppath, you're hilarious...Giraffe neck, Inspector Gadget! As for the rest, I completely agree. Good post.
SouthernT Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 WOW.....I havent been on LS for a couple of months now and it looks like I picked the right day to sign in. This is the EXACT situation that I am in with a guy now. (RECAP----http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t116309/) Well, it's been almost one year now since we've been talking as friends. And he JUST starting bringing up physical intimacy within the past month or two. Now from a woman's stand point GUYS, the reason I have not had sex with him yet is because of his MIXED SIGNALS and lack of effort. If a woman is holding out on you for that long, then there is something that you have failed to make clear to her. Which is the case in my situation. Just last week he asked me to come over and I told him "I dont know if that's such a good idea because you are not putting forth enough effort and you are not showing me enough and you are not being consistent" When a guy puts a one or two month time limit on sex, then of course the girl is going to think thats all he's after. And then there's the CHASE. (RECAP Thread---Men & "The Chase---http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t120554/) Which was a very informative thread by the way....so in my position, why should I have sex with a guy who isnt stepping up to the plate the way that he should? Or do guys tell themselves "Why should I step up to the plate if she's not going to put out?" And just for the heck of it....another recap thread---- "Men All you want is sex" http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t117401/
Cad Rake Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 Or do guys tell themselves "Why should I step up to the plate if she's not going to put out?" No, we think "If she's not putting out, who will?" The concept of "stepping up to the plate" is very old school these days. What does he have to do, buy you more crap? Take you out to fancier dinners? Meet your kids? If the guy is not putting forth "effort" then my guess would be he's getting his rocks off elsewhere. Especially if you two are "friends" and you are actually saying to his face "you need to do X, Y and Z." If he's inconsistent that's almost assuredly because he's getting p00n elsewhere.
Cad Rake Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 Oh and by the way: Not all men like chasing women I, personally, wait for them to come to me. That way I know they're sexually interested and I never fall into the trap of "waiting" for sex.
SouthernT Posted September 19, 2007 Posted September 19, 2007 No, we think "If she's not putting out, who will?" The concept of "stepping up to the plate" is very old school these days. What does he have to do, buy you more crap? Take you out to fancier dinners? Meet your kids? If the guy is not putting forth "effort" then my guess would be he's getting his rocks off elsewhere. Especially if you two are "friends" and you are actually saying to his face "you need to do X, Y and Z." If he's inconsistent that's almost assuredly because he's getting p00n elsewhere. 1) I dont have any kids 2) He takes me out in group settings 3) the only "one on one" time we have had has been hanging out at the mall. He has not asked me out on a formal date. 4) He just started asking me to come over to his house to spend time, but in my mind I'm thinking "why should I come over when this guy has not asked me out on a date yet? " 5) Hasnt spent any money on me. (lunch one time about a week after we met.) 6) Not just "friends" as you so loosley put it...we BOTH expressed to eachother in the very beggining that we were mutually interested and liked one another. This has been going on for almost a year now and I am striclty interested in a relationship. So I am trying to avoid the "friends with benefits" type of situation. In the begining there was a lack of consistency on his part. We would go out....and then I wouldnt hear from him for 3 or 4 weeks. Which lead me to beleive that all he wanted was sex. But now it's been alomost one year and the contact is becoming ALOT more frequent, but he has still failed to disclose his intentions. When I told him a few weeks ago that I did not understand his intentions, his reply was "I'm a good guy and I have nothing but good intentions". What is a girl supposed to do with that kind of response? I need you to SHOW me this, not just say it in words. So again, the ONLY reason I am holding out is because of his MIXED signals and lack of communication.
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