Maybe some of you read my thread on the infidelity forum

[OpenBook]

It is really hard to have balance when your world is wripped to shreds, you soul has been raped, and your future is completely in doubt. I remember feeling like I was on a roller-coaster in h*ll.

 

Yes, I've been there too (more than once!!). But I learned thru those experiences that there are some things NO ONE can ever take away from me. And for that I am eternally grateful.

[serial muse]

It is really hard to have balance when your world is wripped to shreds, you soul has been raped, and your future is completely in doubt. I remember feeling like I was on a roller-coaster in h*ll. When you are holding on for dear life it is pretty hard to let go a hand and offer to help someone else.

 

This is certainly true, and it works both ways, of course.

 

I hope people in that place understand that I am not at all minimizing their pain or perspective. I'm just offering my opinion about how important closure is.

 

The thing is...how much closure is enough? What does it need to be, exactly? A long heart-to-heart? A face-to-face with Treatment and his wife, holding hands and presenting a united front? Or a simple chance for the OW to let out all of her anger at him (which, actually, she's been doing)? I don't know, exactly, what opportunity he's given her to say what she needed to say to him, but it doesn't sound as though he immediately shut down that line of communication - if she had particular things to say and questions to ask, she could have written him a long note expressing all of her hurt and fury over the way he's treated her, which is what I think many people in her situation would do, after calling and emailing repeatedly without response. It's the one recourse people who have been cut off have, if they want to obtain closure. They sit down to write The Final Email and get out what they need to get out.

 

She's not doing anything like that, however - and I think that has a lot more to do with not being able to let go than it does with needing closure. I don't think she wants closure, at this moment.

 

And I certainly don't think the BS has any responsibility toward her, for what it's worth. I understand your plea for compassion, mourning, but I think such a general plea for compassion should extend to the OW. The OW is as responsible for being compassionate to her fellow man as anyone in this scenario, but this particular OW has shown no compassion to the BS throughout, constantly asking about her, pushing for a physical relationship with the MM and then finally harassing and threatening the BS when everything ended. There is no reasonable way in which you can say the BS owes her a single thing. Compassion is not the issue.

 

Perhaps Treatment does owe the OW a chance to say to him, once and for all, "you suck donkey balls," if he hasn't already given it to her. I don't see why she'd need to say it to his face, but okay. But the thing is, perhaps he has already given it to her, and it's just not enough - she wants to be able to say it again, and again, or even better, have him back. That happens, too. Sometimes closure is a red herring, because some people just aren't interested in it. They don't want to deconstruct or know why a thing ended or why someone lost interest; they just want it not to be over, and will do everything they can think of to make that true.

[mourningMM]

You are right that some people just want to hang on; for whatever reason.

 

When my husband left, I couldn't believe it at a deep down level. I'd made a vow, promised a lifetime, believed he'd done that too. To this day there are still mornings I wake up and think he's there, and I still feel a little guilty when I start dating someone new.

 

I just spent the time re-reading Treatment's postings in this thread, and what stands out as I read it is that the wife has said no contact, he agreed. Very good on one level. The wife has said no police, he aggreed. Very good on one level.

 

But they, as a couple, are having to deal with the results of his actions. He started by asking how long could this go on. My feeling is that it will go on until the two of them, acting together confront the OW. My feeling is also that if this confrontation is not tempered with compassion, the OW will not stop, but get even more obsessive about communication. And Treatment's evolution from EA to having no respect for the OW is a piece of information that the OW should have.

 

My observation is that for some (not all) OP, lack of self-respect is what allowed them to be drawn into the A in the first place, so expecting them to behave as "fine upstanding citizens" is unrealistic.

 

...and at that point the wife and Treatment should consider their legal options.

 

Because some people grow strong under pressure, others bend, and a few break. Treatment and the wife don't really know what state OW is in, it may be that a restraining order is appropriate.

[VIP]

If he said to this woman that everything was a lie and a game, she wouldn't call again. Just saying it's over after promising a life together is not enough. The question remains: What about the relationship? How can he stop feeling anything for her from one day to the next? Did she do anything wrong, is it her fault?

 

He didn't consider himself a happily married man when he manipulated her into this mess, and now all of a sudden he is almost saint, and all the blame goes to her. The reality is, the fault is entirely his, a cheater will always find someone to prey on. She just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. No doubt he has hurt both women, but it's not a wife, who is abandoned. Putting all the blame on this deceived woman doesn't make a husband innocent. It's him who broke his committment, not the woman. If a husband is loyal to his wife, no woman can make him stray. Both women are victims, and the obly responsible person who brought the pain to both of them is the husband.

[serial muse]

If he said to this woman that everything was a lie and a game, she wouldn't call again. Just saying it's over after promising a life together is not enough. The question remains: What about the relationship? How can he stop feeling anything for her from one day to the next? Did she do anything wrong, is it her fault?

 

He didn't consider himself a happily married man when he manipulated her into this mess, and now all of a sudden he is almost saint, and all the blame goes to her. The reality is, the fault is entirely his, a cheater will always find someone to prey on. She just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. No doubt he has hurt both women, but it's not a wife, who is abandoned. Putting all the blame on this deceived woman doesn't make a husband innocent. It's him who broke his committment, not the woman. If a husband is loyal to his wife, no woman can make him stray. Both women are victims, and the obly responsible person who brought the pain to both of them is the husband.

 

Hm, this is a bit of a false argument, because I don't think anyone's saying he's not to blame, nor is anyone putting the blame entirely on the OW. I'm certainly not. The question of how thoroughly she was deceived, however, does factor into how innocent she was.

 

Here is what he said of how he treated her:

 

I don't believe I ever said to her "I love you", but I would sign the letters, love, (my name).

 

We kept writing and a few months later (about 9 mos to a year into our writing "friendship" she broke up with her boyfriend. Then she started to expect things from me. She wanted me to come to her state to help her move, then she wanted me to come visit her and take care of a problem for her at her house (in the other state), but I said "no". Then she decided to come back to my state again. We met again. This visit I realized that I hadn't known the person at all. We went for a walk on the beach, and I don't know what she said or even if she said anything, but all of a sudden I looked at her and went to myself "you are not a nice person". About 2 weeks later, after she was back home in her state I called her and told her that it was over.

 

I never had a physical relationship with her. I never kissed her or touched her in an intimate nature. I did hug her a couple of times but they were of the nature of a hug to a friend, not a sexual type of hug.

 

I did say no. But before I said no, things went much too far on an imaginary level. The woman I don't suppose could really have anything to say as we were supposedly just "friends". But at the same time, she made it obvious in every way that she expected we would be together, and I didn't ever say that wasn't my plans. I just let her go on imagining a future with me. I didn't offer her a future, or talk about being together, but I also didn't clarify what I knew was in her head. I let her believe what I knew she wanted to believe because then I kept getting the positive strokes that I wanted.

 

Despicable? Absolutely. He didn't stop her imaginings, and worse, he did it because he liked the way she made him feel. He completely used her.

 

But no, he didn't promise her a life together and then do a 180. This story, however much it may resonate for people who are currently in that type of situation, where the MM promises everything from divorce to a fantastic life together, just isn't of the same caliber. He let her do the talking, and while it may sound like the same thing, I don't think it is.

 

I'm not saying he doesn't owe her answers - provided that she has questions. But threatening his wife isn't asking him to explain himself, and isn't holding him accountable. She does bear responsibility for that, deceived or not. And the question remains about just how deceived she was - certainly, he deceived her into thinking he felt more than he did. But a sudden 180? No. It was a slower detachment than that, apparently. He didn't want to visit her. He didn't want to get physical with her. He didn't volunteer his own wishes for a future with her. Do those things matter? I think they do, because many times I've read on these boards that those are some of the very things people hold on to as signs that the MM is really committed.

 

I saw that he carried on an extramarital emotional affair, accepted the affections of two women, acted like an ass, and then, when she (perhaps naturally) assumed they'd go to the next level, he realized he didn't want to and ended it. He's obviously to blame. But no, the fault is not entirely his. It would be if she hadn't known he was married. But she did, and she went into that situation with her eyes open. He cheated on his marriage, but she was a willing, even eager, participant, and while this may catch some heat, from what he's said it does sound like she was the one driving this emotional affair. He went along for the ride, and he used her feelings for him to make himself feel good (like a perfect ass), but it's not like he was dragging her into his arms, all unwilling. She was the one pushing forward. And however hurt she may have been - and clearly, she was very, very hurt - she doesn't get a free pass for that. We can feel sorry for her, but consider her completely innocent? No.

 

And regardless, she is accountable for her actions now. Threats are unacceptable.

[Jinnah]

Yeah, well the OW is definitely not innocent. I understand feeling sorry for her if she had no clue he was married...but she knew he was. It doesn't matter what he said about the status of the marriage. Most men say things among similar lines. The OW need to accept their responsibility in this as well... not just place it all on him (not saying he's completely innocent but at least he realized his wrong and is correcting it- he gave her what he owed her... he told her what he wants to do and she needs to respect that). If a man (or woman) is married, they're MARRIED. If they really didn't want to be married, they would get a divorce!! Anyone who says they are still married, but getting out/separated should be left alone until they actually do it! Especially if they want to pursue a new relationship. The OW should take responsibility in the fact that she knew he was married and persisted anyway. She should have some pride! Doesn't she deserve a person who can actually be with her without sneaking around? Most women I know have too much self-esteem for that. If there are no divorce papers, leave them be! If you do not, don't get all upset when they go running back to their spouse.

 

The BS is the real victim here... leave her alone.

[Havn_a_life]

Very true. There is NO way one can compare less than a year of flirting, to years of marriage. That's just INSANE!

 

And, this OW was NOT lonely and vunerable. Apparently he isn't her first MM she's gone after.

 

It's kinda sad really. I'm not taking up for the OW, but she needs help and doesn't even know it.

There are SGs out there who will want to be with her.

[Havn_a_life]

I'm not making myself clear. I don't see any of this as being overly nice to the MM or the OP.

 

In this thread I have not seen anywhere that the married couple is acting like a couple.

 

Nothing in what I said indicates that I don't appreciate the BS pain. Hell, I've been one, and one where the MM left and married the OW. Maybe that's the reason that I think of this BS as lucky. I'm suggesting that she take an active controlling part of getting rid of a problem for her marriage.

 

Yes she is hurt, but if he still wants to be with her, well then she should be working with him to provide closure.

 

And as I said, if she is standing there, while he tells this woman to go away, if they show their committment to eachother, it might be the wakeup call that this 'wacko' needs to just walk away.

 

If not, there are 2 people who have witnessed this request to be left alone, enough to go and get a harrassment citation against the OW.

 

And it is no longer a triange....completely removes the she said, he said, she said aspect.

 

IpAncA, you are right, in the perfect world all he should have had to say is it is over.

 

But most humans, if given a shred of hope, will continue to hold on....maybe in a twisted way this guy likes having a stalker.

 

This is not the BS's problem to provide closure to the OW. I think the MM provided that when he told the OW it was over.

She was flirting with a MM. That's a given that you most ikely won't get your man. He is M to another woman.

[precious1357]

Great Great Response!

[norajane]

No doubt he has hurt both women, but it's not a wife, who is abandoned. Putting all the blame on this deceived woman doesn't make a husband innocent. It's him who broke his committment, not the woman. If a husband is loyal to his wife, no woman can make him stray. Both women are victims, and the obly responsible person who brought the pain to both of them is the husband.

 

Well, his wife is the one who ended up having to get stitches because the OW physically attacked her.

 

So, I'd say the OW has to take some responsibility for bringing some pain to the wife, don't you think?

 

However, yes, Treatment is 100% responsible for bringing this into his wife's life.

 

Is he responsible for bringing pain to the OW? He's hardly blame-free! But I'm thinking the OW also needs to take responsibility for that herself.

[Impudent Oyster]

He didn't consider himself a happily married man when he manipulated her into this mess, and now all of a sudden he is almost saint, and all the blame goes to her. The reality is, the fault is entirely his, a cheater will always find someone to prey on.

 

Ah, there it is again, the old, "he wasn't happily married so it's okay for the OW to be with him" line. Baloney

 

The state of his happiness or unhappiness is a moot point. It doesn't matter, all that matters is that he's married.

 

The blame for the relationship (what little of it there was) goes to both the MM and the OW, but that isn't the issue here, the issue is, he ended the relationship and she won't let go. She's virtually stalking him and can't seem to take no for an answer, THAT is what she's being blamed for.

 

I don't care if they were both single and dating, when one person ends the relationship, it's over. No hang-up calls, no harassment, nothing.

 

If she's still behaving like a psycho, she ought to be arrested. No one should have to put up with that kind of nonsense.

[silktricks]

She was the one pushing forward. And however hurt she may have been - and clearly, she was very, very hurt - she doesn't get a free pass for that. We can feel sorry for her, but consider her completely innocent? No.

 

I don't read this woman's actions as hurt. I read them as straight up frustration of someone who wants HER WAY. She's angry that things didn't happen as she had planned. It looked to her like everything was falling in line just as she had planned. Then they didn't.

 

Everybody here keeps saying this was the man's fault. Clearly he said things he shouldn't have and did things he shouldn't have, but what I read on the two threads was that she sucked him in, not the other way around. So I don't get how the OW is the vulnerable abused innocent and he's the wicked monster as is portrayed.

[Havn_a_life]

What would be the discussion if, say, the MM was the stalker, or the BW?

[OpenBook]

Yeah, well the OW is definitely not innocent. I understand feeling sorry for her if she had no clue he was married...but she knew he was. It doesn't matter what he said about the status of the marriage. Most men say things among similar lines. The OW need to accept their responsibility in this as well... not just place it all on him (not saying he's completely innocent but at least he realized his wrong and is correcting it- he gave her what he owed her... he told her what he wants to do and she needs to respect that). If a man (or woman) is married, they're MARRIED. If they really didn't want to be married, they would get a divorce!! Anyone who says they are still married, but getting out/separated should be left alone until they actually do it! Especially if they want to pursue a new relationship. The OW should take responsibility in the fact that she knew he was married and persisted anyway. She should have some pride! Doesn't she deserve a person who can actually be with her without sneaking around? Most women I know have too much self-esteem for that. If there are no divorce papers, leave them be! If you do not, don't get all upset when they go running back to their spouse.

 

Well now, let's hold up a mirror to this and see how it looks...

 

Yeah, well the MM is definitely not innocent. I understand feeling sorry for him if he completely forgot he was married...but he knew he was. It doesn't matter what she believed about the status of the marriage. Most men say things among similar lines. The MM need to accept their responsibility in this as well... not just place it all on her (not saying she's completely innocent but at least she gave him the benefit of the doubt, and took a chance... she gave him her love and he needs to respect that). If a man (or woman) is married, they're MARRIED. If they really didn't want to be married, they wouldn't be pussyfooting around the W!! Anyone who says they are still married, but getting out/separated should actually do it! Especially if they want to pursue a new relationship. The MM should take responsibility in the fact that he knew he was married and persisted anyway. He should have some pride! Doesn't he deserve a person who can actually be with him without sneaking around? Most men I know have too much self-esteem for that. If there are no divorce papers, leave the OW be! If you do not, don't get all upset when they go flipping out on you.

 

Now why don't we ever see the MM beat up on like this, huh???!?

 

The BS is the real victim here... leave her alone.

 

Horse Manure. If the BS was holding up her end of the stick at home, he wouldn't be out hitting on OW! And even if she WAS holding it up, and he STILL cheated on her, then why is she still married to the louse???

[GreenEyedLady]

Horse Manure. If the BS was holding up her end of the stick at home, he wouldn't be out hitting on OW! And even if she WAS holding it up, and he STILL cheated on her, then why is she still married to the louse???

 

This is the best quote I've seen in a while...

[mourningMM]

Exactly where Treatment is these days, and whether he and his wife have found a solution to their issues with stuck-person.

 

I think that is the crux of the issue. Maybe the problem here isn't really about who is the married man, who is the betrayed spouse, who is the other woman.

 

I think that maybe the problem is two out of the three people in this mess have moved on and that one was left to deal with their decision

 

If the OP and the MP had got together the BS could very well have been the one left in the dust.

 

And in a real twisted world the OP and the BS could make the decision that the MM wasn't worth their time, and gang up on him to be sure that his divorce stripped him of everything.

 

All of those scenarios is a 2-on-1 where someone is left on the outside.

 

My only point is that the 2 need to realize that the 1 basically ends up with the sh*t end of the stick (sometimes deserved, sometimes undeserved, but still deep-brown-doo-doo).

 

In the perfect world winners and losers should be gracious; in the real world that doesn't always happen.

 

I'd love to hear the progress Treatment and his wife have made

[whichwayisup]

MM, he is getting alot of good support in the infidelity section. He's stopped posting in this section because he was getting bashed big time.

[mourningMM]

I'm glad he and his wife got the restraining order. When this thread started she didn't want to tell anyone...

 

They are acting as a couple; hopefully that will be a good thing.

[norajane]

I'm glad he and his wife got the restraining order. When this thread started she didn't want to tell anyone...

 

They are acting as a couple; hopefully that will be a good thing.

 

 

They got the restraining order because the OW physically attacked the wife, to the point where the wife needed stitches.

 

So now the police know, their attorney knows, their doctor knows, and the private investigator they hired also knows. Guess that means they're acting as a couple.

[Jinnah]

Well now, let's hold up a mirror to this and see how it looks...

 

Yeah, well the MM is definitely not innocent. I understand feeling sorry for him if he completely forgot he was married...but he knew he was. It doesn't matter what she believed about the status of the marriage. Most men say things among similar lines. The MM need to accept their responsibility in this as well... not just place it all on her (not saying she's completely innocent but at least she gave him the benefit of the doubt, and took a chance... she gave him her love and he needs to respect that). If a man (or woman) is married, they're MARRIED. If they really didn't want to be married, they wouldn't be pussyfooting around the W!! Anyone who says they are still married, but getting out/separated should actually do it! Especially if they want to pursue a new relationship. The MM should take responsibility in the fact that he knew he was married and persisted anyway. He should have some pride! Doesn't he deserve a person who can actually be with him without sneaking around? Most men I know have too much self-esteem for that. If there are no divorce papers, leave the OW be! If you do not, don't get all upset when they go flipping out on you.

 

N

 

Ummm... did you not hear me say, "not saying he's completely innocent..."?

 

If you did, then "putting this in a mirror" is completely useless... no one said he was off the hook for that. I just said the woman needed to take responsibility for her actions.

 

As it turns out, she is the psycho anyway... so I'm right.

[Jinnah]

 

 

Horse Manure. If the BS was holding up her end of the stick at home, he wouldn't be out hitting on OW! And even if she WAS holding it up, and he STILL cheated on her, then why is she still married to the louse???

 

I'm taking it you and GreenEyedLady have been the OW and don't like taking responsibility for your own actions. You have no compassion for the victim (his wife). The OW/OM is NEVER a victim unless they were told they were not married. Deal with it. Plenty of perfect spouses are cheated on b/c they have an immoral spouse... period. Nothing they could have done would prevent it. I'm glad everyone in the world doesn't have your viewpoint or more people would be committing serious crimes and placing the blame elsewhere.

[Havn_a_life]

Well now, let's hold up a mirror to this and see how it looks...

 

Yeah, well the MM is definitely not innocent. I understand feeling sorry for him if he completely forgot he was married...but he knew he was. It doesn't matter what she believed about the status of the marriage. Most men say things among similar lines. The MM need to accept their responsibility in this as well... not just place it all on her (not saying she's completely innocent but at least she gave him the benefit of the doubt, and took a chance... she gave him her love and he needs to respect that). If a man (or woman) is married, they're MARRIED. If they really didn't want to be married, they wouldn't be pussyfooting around the W!! Anyone who says they are still married, but getting out/separated should actually do it! Especially if they want to pursue a new relationship. The MM should take responsibility in the fact that he knew he was married and persisted anyway. He should have some pride! Doesn't he deserve a person who can actually be with him without sneaking around? Most men I know have too much self-esteem for that. If there are no divorce papers, leave the OW be! If you do not, don't get all upset when they go flipping out on you.

 

Now why don't we ever see the MM beat up on like this, huh???!?

 

 

 

Horse Manure. If the BS was holding up her end of the stick at home, he wouldn't be out hitting on OW! And even if she WAS holding it up, and he STILL cheated on her, then why is she still married to the louse???

 

And where does this whole, if the wife were kissing her H's a*ss he wouldn't stray crap come into it? That's BS right there.

[Havn_a_life]

 

In the perfect world winners and losers should be gracious; in the real world that doesn't always happen.

 

 

In my opinion, this OW doesn't deserve graciousness from the BW since the OW did the violence that gave the BW stitches.

No pity for the OW here.

[silktricks]

In the perfect world winners and losers should be gracious; in the real world that doesn't always happen.

 

Hmmmm. Isn't this the forum where people are always saying that this isn't a competition and there's something wrong with BS for viewing it as such??? Yet here we are, when the MM stays with the wife, now it's a competition with the expectation that she should now be gracious to the OW. And why is that? Oh yes, because whe won. In a competition she didn't even know she was in.

 

And as for this sweet quotation:

Horse Manure. If the BS was holding up her end of the stick at home, he wouldn't be out hitting on OW! And even if she WAS holding it up, and he STILL cheated on her, then why is she still married to the louse???

Ya know, there are a lot of ups and downs in life. Nobody but nobody can "hold up their end of the stick at home" all of the time. Everyone has difficulties at times. Every marriage has difficulties at times. Most of us have at least one passive-aggressive bone in our bodies, and we expect and deserve to have the person we are married to understand that and deal with it in some fashion. To hear an OW use this as an excuse for f*cking around with a married man is at the least tiresome. Since I've BEEN an OW, I know that I have the right to say this. I never pretended I had an excuse for what I did. I looked at myself and realized that I had a serious moral lapse, and investigated the reason for that lapse. What I did was my fault. It wasn't his fault. It certainly wasn't his wife's fault. It was mine. What he did wasn't his wife's fault, it was his.

[OpenBook]

And where does this whole, if the wife were kissing her H's a*ss he wouldn't stray crap come into it? That's BS right there.

 

Ah, you sound like one of those W's who is constantly emasculating her H. I wish you lots of luck with that in your M.