Topic on morals, cheating, and most men

[Lizzie60]

No I am not bitter at men because I was cheated on as a teen..... and not an important relationship to me. No biggie.... teeny bopper crap.

 

I see so many "good guys" that I thought were upstanding husbands cheat.

That goes for women I would never suspect either.

 

I just think it is foolish to think it could never happen to you.

 

And that goes for men, women, lesbians, straight, gay, or greenies.

 

Amen to that... Never say never... LOL NEVER!

[lindya]

Maybe its because he/she doesn't like the fact that there actually are people out there that aren't shallow, selfish, or weak.

 

That's not how I read it. My understanding of Herzen's post was that he feels that in order to discuss and debate this usefully, one should appreciate that explanations and excuses are two different things.

 

If LS were comprised of people stating "X should not do Y. If he does, then he's Z" absolutes and everyone else saying "Great post!" then that's kind of comforting and affirmative, but it doesn't lead to those "that's an interesting point, I never considered that before..." moments that exploration of the grey areas can bring. I know that I tend to get most out of this board when someone with an different perspective to mine has argued their side very thoughfully and persuasively.

 

If someone raises the question of why people cheat in certain situations, then that's an opportunity for some new learning. Particularly if someone who has been unfaithful to a partner in the past is willing to contribute their experiences. I can understand people getting angry if they get the impression that the individual is using the opportunity to gloat/rub salt in wounds....but attacking someone simply for offering up the perspective they've gained through their own experiences (and analysis of those experiences) achieves nothing - except, perhaps, silencing dissent.

[marlena]

Bish,

I was stating an opinion about what I thought is true. It was a personal assessment. It does not mean others necessarily share my viewpoint. Therefore, I was indeed "speaking for myself". If others tend to agree with me, it is purely coincidental.

[Lizzie60]

Anyone who says that most men would cheat are just bitter towards men. Its probably due to the fact that they were screwed over by a guy in the past. They are probably just saying it because they are mad.

 

Yes some men do cheat but it is going overboard to say most or even 99%.

 

Maybe IN THEIR life and what they have seen most guys cheat, but they do not speak for all of us and we all perceive things differently.

 

I will always say that most men cheat... and most, if NOT ALL, will given the opportunity.

 

And... no, I've never been cheated on...(not that I know anyway).. I left my partners, they didn't leave me... and I still do... when I'm tired of them... I just don't see them anymore... simple.

 

That's why I don't believe in marriage and monogamy...

[Trialbyfire]

Maybe its because he/she doesn't like the fact that there actually are people out there that aren't shallow, selfish, or weak.

A very good possibility. Otherwise, why accuse someone of attempting to suppress free thought and speech, when you're doing the same by attacking them directly.

[tanbark813]

If LS were comprised of people stating "X should not do Y. If he does, then he's Z" absolutes and everyone else saying "Great post!" then that's kind of comforting and affirmative, but it doesn't lead to those "that's an interesting point, I never considered that before..." moments that exploration of the grey areas can bring. I know that I tend to get most out of this board when someone with an different perspective to mine has argued their side very thoughfully and persuasively.

 

Yes, but there's a difference between discussing the reasons behind something and making blanket statements about a group of people. I've personally had 3 LTR's end due to the woman cheating but I've never cheated on a gf myself. So statements about what a man would do kind of rub me the wrong way.

 

Your previous post about discussing with a partner potential opportunities for cheating is an interesting perspective but it also kind of sounds like you're constantly having to police your partner's life. That seems very tiresome. Would it not be better to find a partner whose judgment you could trust? It would certainly be less work and less headaches.

 

I'd be a little offended if a gf said, "Now, sweetie, there are going to be hot chicks and alcohol at the party you want to go to so I think you should refrain from attending." If I weren't in the best of moods I'd probably tell her to go f**k herself.

[EnigmasMuse]

I left my partners, they didn't leave me... and I still do... when I'm tired of them...

 

Did a parent leave you? I'm just curious as to why you leave first, or why you get tired of them. Were you left or cast aside when you were younger, when no one wanted to be with you anymore?

 

Just wondering and trying to understand, since you are a firm believer in most men cheating, and said that its not because you were not cheated on.

[LoveLace]

I left my partners, they didn't leave me... and I still do... when I'm tired of them...

 

Did a parent leave you? I'm just curious as to why you leave first, or why you get tired of them. Were you left or cast aside when you were younger, when no one wanted to be with you anymore?

 

Just wondering and trying to understand, since you are a firm believer in most men cheating, and said that its not because you were not cheated on.

 

 

Sorry muse not trying to intercept, but had to say I agree with you because my father left us for another woman; and I'm bad at trusting men, and guilty of getting bored quickly. But I've really never been cheated on (that I know of!

[lindya]

Yes, but there's a difference between discussing the reasons behind something and making blanket statements about a group of people. I've personally had 3 LTR's end due to the woman cheating but I've never cheated on a gf myself. So statements about what a man would do kind of rub me the wrong way.

 

Well, yes. I don't agree with the blanket statement that "most men cheat". I also don't think there's much potential for discussion with someone who starts from that perspective. It sounds too much like an "I've made up my mind about this one, and I'm not interested in hearing any other perspectives." Unless it's clearly presented to provoke discussion - as the OP presented it (ie "here's a view I keep reading on this board. What are people's thoughts on it?")

 

There is indeed a huge difference between reasoned analysis/explanations and making blanket statements - and that's the point I was trying to make.

 

Your previous post about discussing with a partner potential opportunities for cheating is an interesting perspective but it also kind of sounds like you're constantly having to police your partner's life.

 

I didn't see it that way. A particular situation emerged a few months before the relationship ended - ie his developing "platonic" friendship with another woman. These friendships do develop sometimes, and generally I've been cool with boyfriends having female friends...but this particular one raised red flags, and that was something I had to at least try to discuss with him. I'm not a quitter, and I won't walk away from a relationship that's important to me the moment something pushes me out of my comfort/security zone, but yes....

 

That seems very tiresome. Would it not be better to find a partner whose judgment you could trust? It would certainly be less work and less headaches.

 

That would be the ideal, of course. And up until that point I had trusted his judgement. Trust just isn't a fixed thing. Sometimes you can trust a person during one particular phase in your life, then fresh circumstances change the whole dynamic....and the headaches set in, and yes, it starts to feel like hard work that, in retrospect, involved wasted effort.

 

I'd be a little offended if a gf said, "Now, sweetie, there are going to be hot chicks and alcohol at the party you want to go to so I think you should refrain from attending." If I weren't in the best of moods I'd probably tell her to go f**k herself.

 

Is that how you read my post? I suppose it is difficult to broach discussion about what I'd term "risk factors" without it being construed in that way. There has to be a really strong connection between people for one person to say "look, there's something troubling me about this situation....can I talk about it?", for the other to listen and then for some discussion to happen without arguments breaking out and accusations about mistrustfulness being levelled.

[Herzen]

That's not how I read it. My understanding of Herzen's post was that he feels that in order to discuss and debate this usefully, one should appreciate that explanations and excuses are two different things.

 

If LS were comprised of people stating "X should not do Y. If he does, then he's Z" absolutes and everyone else saying "Great post!" then that's kind of comforting and affirmative, but it doesn't lead to those "that's an interesting point, I never considered that before..." moments that exploration of the grey areas can bring. I know that I tend to get most out of this board when someone with an different perspective to mine has argued their side very thoughfully and persuasively.

 

If someone raises the question of why people cheat in certain situations, then that's an opportunity for some new learning. Particularly if someone who has been unfaithful to a partner in the past is willing to contribute their experiences. I can understand people getting angry if they get the impression that the individual is using the opportunity to gloat/rub salt in wounds....but attacking someone simply for offering up the perspective they've gained through their own experiences (and analysis of those experiences) achieves nothing - except, perhaps, silencing dissent.

 

That's my point: discussion and learning become impossible when people attack views, comments, opinions and posters, whom they perceive as immoral, improper and sinful. This constant judging and carping stifles discussion, learning and the healthy exchange of POV.

 

Just because some posters are obsessed about the evil of infidelity does not mean that all posters share the view that no one may intelligently discuss why some people cheat. Explanations are not justifications: Grow Up people.

 

If the obsessive moralists want to start their own Thread about the evils of cheating, be my guest. I won't visit that's for sure. They have nothing to offer anyone but their own bile and self-professed moral stature.

 

But keep away from those of us on LoveShack who have the maturity, perspective, intelligence and experience to actually have grown-up discussions about controversial topics.

 

Some people here give morality a bad name.

[Trialbyfire]

That's my point: discussion and learning become impossible when people attack views, comments, opinions and posters, whom they perceive as immoral, improper and sinful. This constant judging and carping stifles discussion, learning and the healthy exchange of POV.

 

Just because some posters are obsessed about the evil of infidelity does not mean that all posters share the view that no one may intelligently discuss why some people cheat. Explanations are not justifications: Grow Up people.

 

If the obsessive moralists want to start their own Thread about the evils of cheating, be my guest. I won't visit that's for sure. They have nothing to offer anyone but their own bile and self-professed moral stature.

 

But keep away from those of us on LoveShack who have the maturity, perspective, intelligence and experience to actually have grown-up discussions about controversial topics.

 

Some people here give morality a bad name.

Let's clarify something. You are one of THE most judgmental individuals on LS. That you can't see your own blatant hypocrisy, makes me shake my head in disbelief over the denial.

[sb129]

Its not all that difficult-

Wonderboy went to a wedding that I wasn't invited to a few weeks ago.

His ex GF was the bridesmaid. I don't really know the couple, and apparently the exGF is the kind of person to cause a scene, hence me being left off the list.

 

I wasn't that cool about it to be honest, but I knew there was no way WB wouldn't go. Its not that I thought he would cheat, but it still didn't feel that great.

 

He was so good about it. He was patient when I had a rant about it, listened, reassured me over and over, called me from the wedding a couple of times, and was home when he said he would be.

He has since organised get togethers with the newlyweds so we they can get to know me.

 

Anyway, point is, you can talk about things and the outcome doesn't always have to feel like one party is being controlled.

[Lizzie60]

I left my partners, they didn't leave me... and I still do... when I'm tired of them...

 

Did a parent leave you? I'm just curious as to why you leave first, or why you get tired of them. Were you left or cast aside when you were younger, when no one wanted to be with you anymore?

 

Just wondering and trying to understand, since you are a firm believer in most men cheating, and said that its not because you were not cheated on.

 

My parents are still together and married... LOL

 

I don't believe in 'overanalyzing' my lifestyle... and having to find a 'disease' or a '---pathic' behaviour... I am no different than many men or women who just happen to leave their partners...

 

It's just like that... I only had 2 long relationships... and both times I left because I was not happy...it's that simple.

 

I am more curious about 'doormats' LOL

[tanbark813]

Is that how you read my post?

 

Sort of, I kind of extrapolated. The new friend was the only specific risk factor mentioned in that post, but in a previous one you had mentioned alcohol + environment + opportunity.

 

I have an attractive, female platonic friend whom I've known since high school. We get dinner from time to time to catch up on things and if I happen to have a gf at the time then I'll either invite the gf, or ask her if it would bug her if I went alone if she couldn't make it. Situations like that I can see bringing up a concern.

 

But with the general combination of alcohol + environment + opportunity it seems a little less based on a particular situation and more based on your partner's typical behavior--or your perception of their typical behavior--in a type of situation. Concerns over that I would find offensive because it's less about actual facts/people and more about "what if's".

 

But I guess how the concern is addressed is also an important factor.

[EnigmasMuse]

My parents are still together and married... LOL

 

 

Good to hear.

 

Glad my question made you "LOL".

 

 

 

I am no different than many men or women who just happen to leave their partners..

 

 

Ok then.

 

 

I am more curious about 'doormats' LOL

 

Yeah me too, I don't get why people let themselves be used.

 

 

Anyway, I guess your view of men or MOST men, is just that. Nothing ever triggered you to feel the way you do about it. And as you would say, its just that simple.

[Lizzie60]

I hear a lot of 'I would NEVER cheat'... 'I never did, never will', blablabla...

 

it's easy to say when someone is not even married yet, or has never been in a relationship or a live-in rel. for more than 5 years...

[sb129]

 

But with the general combination of alcohol + environment + opportunity it seems a little less based on a particular situation and more based on your partner's typical behavior--or your perception of their typical behavior--in a type of situation. Concerns over that I would find offensive because it's less about actual facts/people and more about "what if's".

 

But I guess how the concern is addressed is also an important factor.

 

Exactly. "What ifs" can cause a whole lotta problems.

Most people should know their partner well enough to know how they are likely to behave in the "alcohol+environment+opportunity" scenario.

[sb129]

can I just add that I am aware that there can be extenuating circumstances that can change said behaviour, which is WHY this topic is SO difficult to compartmentalise.

[LoveLace]

I agree tan because alcohol + opportunity + environment to me pretty much sounds like an excuse for cheating, or a guaranteed contribution to cheating. If you are seriously faithful to your partner and respectful to them, none of the above factors would matter. The way you handle your platonic friendship with your girlfriends sounds very reasonable. I even believe that if your platonic friend were to provide you with "opportunity" that you would brush it off not only out of respect for the friendship but for your current relationship. In other words surrounding factors really have nothing to do with it. It's all about the individual, if you'd get drunk and cheat at the bar, then you'd also do it while sober anywhere else.

[Trialbyfire]

I do know myself well enough that I have never and will never cheat. It's very easy not to cheat if you're conscious about it or aren't the self-entitled type, that want it all.

 

When I walk away from an unhappy situation that can't be fixed, I do experience all the angst, pain, grief and anger that deep emotions...inspire. That I know it's for the possibility of a more healthy situation, makes it worth doing. Some people are able to make these difficult choices, suck it up and live with the pain of break up or divorce, while others aren't willing to do so, therefore, have their cake and eat it too.

[lindya]

Sort of, I kind of extrapolated. The new friend was the only specific risk factor mentioned in that post, but in a previous one you had mentioned alcohol + environment + opportunity.

 

Yeah. I suppose I'm thinking of the platonic friend where there's an undercurrent. Alcohol and opportunity (eg alone time together) can tend to bring that undercurrent to the surface.

 

But with the general combination of alcohol + environment + opportunity it seems a little less based on a particular situation and more based on your partner's typical behavior--or your perception of their typical behavior--in a type of situation. Concerns over that I would find offensive because it's less about actual facts/people and more about "what if's".

 

But I guess how the concern is addressed is also an important factor.

 

It would be ludicrous to want to have a "talk" every time a partner was going out somewhere that would also be attended by alcohol and good looking members of the opposite sex. In those situations, of course there's cheating potential for anyone (and the people who are prone to cheating will doubtless use those situations as hunting grounds). With a person you have a good amount of trust in, though, it doesn't need to be an issue. It would be a nightmare for both parties if every situation like that was preceded by a "you're not going to cheat on me, are you?" talk.

 

I'm thinking specifically of that situation where you're in a relationship that you once felt very secure in, but where the situation is changed as a result of some third party influence. The close opposite-sex friend situation that there's so much pressure on a partner to be accepting of, even when their instincts are nagging them that something's wrong.

[mental_traveller]

I have seen some people on the forum say that, they feel, most men would cheat if given the opportunity. This was a discussion that was going on at my work yesterday over lunch too. Some of the people there, also felt that most men would. So here is my question, what about men with high morals and family values etc, do you feel if opportunity knocked at their door, they would cheat also? Or is the statement, "most men would cheat if given the opportunity" just based on men with low morals?

 

Ok, discuss.

 

I wouldn't cheat, for two reasons. First, my gf is smoking hot and we get on really well, so it would be pretty hard to find someone who could be tempting in comparison. Second, I don't see the point in cheating when you can just leave and be free & single again to have sex with a clear conscience and without the hassles of deception, hurt & betrayal.

[lonelybird]

 

But keep away from those of us on LoveShack who have the maturity, perspective, intelligence and experience to actually have grown-up discussions about controversial topics.

 

.

I just think you painted 'cheat' beautifully than intelligencely.

 

why people cheat? at the moment, flesh win over spirit. It is a choice, people can choose, the choices reflect your charactors

[directx]

I love sins of the flesh...or at least thinking about them...

[lonelybird]

 

But keep away from those of us on LoveShack who have the maturity, perspective, intelligence and experience to actually have grown-up discussions about controversial topics.

.

I guess the 'intelligence' talk come from Freud's theory? all motivation of human base on SEX? Freud's theory is flawed