Feeling sick that H's family agrees with me...

[luvstarved]

Some family situation came up recently and my H betrayed a confidence against his sister. She called me, and we had never had any sort of close conversation.

 

In the course of this conversation, it all came spilling out that the rest of the family sees things the way I do...and it is making me feel sick because I had been trying so hard to hope for the best and allow my part in things and give my H the benefit of the doubt, etc.

 

Now it turns out that his whole family thinks he is an immature jerk who has a bizarre, sick codependent relationship with his mother...and they all feel sorry for my daughters for the way he started off being so loving toward them then totally changed when he had his own daughter.

 

I told her things she did not know and she told me things I did not know but everything all lined up consistently. And now I want to throw up because now I have to face the fact that I was right all along, when I so desperately wanted to believe otherwise.

 

I don't even know what to do with this information. Right now I feel I want nothing to do with him. I feel that if I confront him with this, he will just as usual say that whoever is saying it is jealous or just trying to protect my feelings. Or that I am making it up. I also think that he would start calling all the family members and calling them on it...ugh.

 

It isn't like I learned anything dramatic, just confirmation of what I already knew...that he and his mother have this pathological bond and always have and the whole family sees it as abnormal. And that he has always been extremely selfish, etc. And she has always treated him like a god. And that he always discussed details of his sex life with her. Which makes some of her past "coincidental" remarks to me REALLY make me sick.

 

His sister kept telling me things that totally lined up with my worst interpretation of him and now I feel like everything is just hopeless.

 

Well I just needed to get that off my chest. Thanks for listening.

[Sheba]

I am very sorry to see this post.

 

Is there any chance the sister, who is understandably angry, was just agreeing with you? Or did she initiate some points or reinforce your beliefs with clearly independent thoughts? Think back carefully and remember, she was betrayed by your husband.

 

Further - if she is right and you have been right - does that eradicate the changes your husband has made in himself? Do you feel this pathological relationship still exists and harms your marriage? Put yourself where you were when you wrote to me the other day - does this information dash all those hopes you expressed?

 

Maybe I am grasping at straws on your behalf. It is rather sickening to think a man would discuss his sex life with his mother - though I am rather inclined to think it was the mother who started this twist to the relationship. I am careful to not cross boundaries with my son, for his sake and my own. It is conscientious - I am modest around him, I knock before I go in his room, etc... I saw some sexualized behaviour between my ex and his mother - all on her side! She would wear thin negligees around him and buy him sexy underwear. That is as far as it went, but still I found it bizarre and creepy and very much one sided from mother to son.

 

I am sorry you have to deal with this. Think long and hard before you say anything to him. Perhaps save it for the counsellor's office?

[luvstarved]

Well, I just passed on sex this morning which I never do so he knows something is up. Also mentioned that I seemed forlorn last night.

 

The conversation went more like she would bring something up and I would agree and then give an example from my experience then she would give more examples from her experience.

 

She could never so much as have a cup of coffee alone with Mom because he always had to be there.

 

When he was smoking pot in his room she told his mother and mom said "how do YOU know its pot, leave him alone"

 

He always yelled and spoke disrespectfully to parents until he got his way, which he always did.

 

He always told Mom everything. When he dated a recent divorcee who was not ready for a physical relationship, she was blabbing all over to the whole family about how this woman was being unfair to him for not "giving him any".

 

He and she used to have many private conversations about his sex life and his father was very disgusted by it.

 

When he and I were in sexless phase, sometimes she would out of nowhere start talking to me about how when the sex goes, the marriage is virtually over and an affair must be about to happen.

 

He's mentioned twice to me about getting "sexual signals" from his Mom without really explaining it.

 

His sister told me that Mom has always gone around telling the world how handsome and sexy H is.

 

He never had to do any chores at all and Mom always would jump when he said jump. Also, no matter what he was doing, she would be right there being a spectator, from little league games to him splashing in the pool or playing hockey in the back yard. Sitting there like a fan the whole time. STILL does this watching him play in an over 30 baseball league.

 

Sister started naming off relatives to whom she had spoken about this over the years and that they all thought that the relationship was "abnormal". Way beyond mother and son closeness.

 

Said that mom had always agreed with everything he said, he was always right, everyone else was always a malicious a**hole or "just jealous". Even if he changed his mind 180 in a conversation, her mind would go 180 too.

 

H tells her everything, even when I have made him promise not to, and not a month later after agonizing over it, but at the very earliest opportunity.

 

I have walked into the house many times and the conversation would cease and there would be major awkwardness in the air.

 

The worst part, is my sister in law telling me with NO provocation, that the whole family felt so sorry for my daughters for the way he treated them (his stepdaughters). I cried about this because I was always trying to allow that I was not seeing things clearly, as he and his Mom had both been telling me. I did talk to my daughters later about this, and they were like, don't worry Mom, when someone acts as crazy as he does, you just don't respect them or give any weight to anything they say, so it doesn't bother us any more, we just want nothing to do with him, but if he makes you happy, stay with him.

 

He was engaged to be married about a year before I met him. All he had told me of this relationship was that the woman "had emotional issues" and that's why he broke up with her. Sis told me that SHE dumped HIM and in the end said she never wanted anything to do with him again. Also said that he was not able to get anyone to be his best man and that was embarrassing all around. Sis did not know what the catalyst for the breakup was (why would they tell her?) but it was definitely the woman's idea, and she has never contacted my H so obviously there was no lingering regrets on her part...my H has never indicated that he felt anything about this.

 

Sis also confirmed that I am the only long term relationship he has ever had. She even said that she thought that in some weird way his relationships with women came across as secondary or even some kind of strange betrayal of Mom.

 

During our sexless years, he would go over to Moms and hang around ALL WEEKEND LONG, being served and telling her God knows what. Now he stays home, but will not help around the house, rather just reads, watches tv and floats in the pool. Claims that what weekends are for. I started "striking", not cleaning either, then he started complaining about how the house looks.

 

His buzzphrases are "look in the mirror", "I am not the problem", "your daughters are the problem", "my mother is a saint", "you're jealous of my relationship with my Mom", etc.

 

His mom totally violates my space, responds when my 8 year old says "Mom", goes out and buys seasonal stuff for her way early so that I don't get the chance and goes into every nook and cranny of the house, doing what she wants.

 

One day she did not know I was here and went into the master bath even though the main bath was free. She was in there over 5 minutes "exploring". Then came out and saw me and said, I thought someone was in the other bathroom.

 

Now, the capper is that she raised my H to mistrust everyone else, to totally depend on her, and to not have to do anything but what he wanted, while telling him he was the greatest, etc. The two of them together, as virtual husband and wife, are doing the same to my daughter. This happens because she watches her when school is out, etc. and spoils her as she did him. When we are all around and I try to discipline or get cooperation from my daughter, they gang up on me and tell me I am being mean or crabby, or excuse any rude remark or refusal to do what I ask with "she's just tired". But when my H wants her to do something (like be quiet because he is trying to sleep), he doesn't ask nicely but SCREAMS at her until she is in tears. I told him the other night that yellng at a sobbing little girl was not an effective way to calm them down, and he said "Stop being such a critical ***hole. You are treating me like a child". I said "Then stop acting like a child, for once".

 

So the bottom line is that his feelings and needs trump EVERYONE else's, followed by his daughter, then his Mom, and I am not a blood relative, so I must have some evil hidden agenda going on.

 

He treats me very well when I am complying with this wishes or he wants me to take care of something he doesn't know how to (which is a great many things). But if I have a mood or unmet need, he never supports but uses it as an excuse to support the theory that I am unkind and demanding, etc.

 

I have lived with 5 other men. This one is loyal, reliable, doesn't drink smoke or do drugs. All that is a lot. And I do think he means well. But he was raised with a set of expectations that I have no power or intention to live up to, and has a pathological bond established that I do not t hink I can break.

 

When I try to tell him that others see his anger and nervousness, too, he has said that he and his Mom agree that I am the one with issues and that the rest of the world is wrong. She is right because she is around more often, blah blah. Plus, it is in total agreement with what he says, coincidentally...so it's GOTTA be true. Plus, his degree is in counseling and mine is in computer science, so ... his credential proves that he is people-savvy and I am a clueless geek. Despite the fact that I have dated dozens of men and lived with 5 others and he doesn't even have one LTR in his past, and no friends that I have ever met. WHATEVER Sheba!!!

 

Sorry to blather on but this is so fresh. If I had been reading all my own posts all along, I can't help but admit that I would be thinking "Fer cripe's sake, get out of this!". I don't know why I keep clinging to hope in the face of all this discouraging reality...

[whichwayisup]

I'm in shock. WTF!!! WTF!! WTF!!!!!!! So basically you cannot trust him with anything as he'll tell ALL to mommy.

 

Yes, their 'relationship' is abnormal. They are TOO emotionally attached. Yuk yuk yuk.

 

How much do you love this guy? I mean, can you deal with his mommy issues forever? And, you do know when the time comes his mom gets ill, or is in the hospital, he'll RUN to her and forget about you. He'll be a bloody mess when the time comes she passes away too....

 

I did talk to my daughters later about this, and they were like, don't worry Mom, when someone acts as crazy as he does, you just don't respect them or give any weight to anything they say, so it doesn't bother us any more, we just want nothing to do with him, but if he makes you happy, stay with him.

 

I will say this, your daughters are smartcookies! GOOD FOR THEM by how they are handling this. You must be very proud of them.

[dropdeadlegs]

I see some similarities with my second husband here. We lived 5 hours away from his mother, but his sisters would always say that "mom loves him the most." I also had people, both family and friends, comment on the completely different way he treated our daughter versus my two existing children. My parents were the most vocal about it. Sadly, when we later had a son, he barely had anything to do with him. Must have been a first child thing or something.

 

I can't say the mother/son bond was what you are dealing with because it seemed far more one-sided, and not creepy/sexual stuff, but something was off and it was obvious.

 

I don't have advice and my situation had a bad ending that I don't believe is common. I can say that I wish I had given my older children's feelings more consideration. During courtship I should have seen some major red flags and heeded them. Early in the marriage I easily could have gotten out and saved us all some emotional damage, but what's done is done and I have done my best to salvage and improve what was left of the bond between myself and my first two kids. I feel that my son and I will never have what we once did, and recognize that it is my fault. Now that he has a child, I feel that the remaining damage is running over into the bond between myself and my granddaughter. I think my efforts were too little, too late but I will continue to try to make amends and repair what has been broken.

 

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. Sometimes something happens that just makes us see things in a different light. Maybe this is your eye opening moment. Let it sink in. I believe that you will know what to do if something needs to be done.

 

I'm not sure if you are still in marriage counseling, but is there individual counseling, or some kind of outlet, where you can bounce you new feelings off someone?

[luvstarved]

I do love him as he IS handsome, sexy, loyal, fun to have fun with, devoted to HIS daughter at least, and reliable (like I don't think he'd actually cheat) and his boyish qualities can be charming when they aren't aggravating!

 

The sticking points are his selfishness, inability to get really intimate (selfish sexually and won't openly discuss sex), always denying blame and quick to make everything about someone else's fault, even where blame could be ignored altogether, disrespect - won't honor confidences, will not modify behaviors that he has been told hurt our feelings because we are reacting wrong, telling me what I am thinking and insisting he is right, white lies about his "solo sexual" behaviors, double standard with kids (all had sloppy rooms and left things lying around at times, but his daughter is a great and perfect kid, mine were out of control and he was a prince to tolerate them - before our daughter was born, two years into the marriage, he was an EXEMPLARY stepdad and seemed to really love my kids, so it wasn't like I saw all this before we got married), and a general double standard where he and his are always justified in their behaviors and anyone outside of the blood circle is twisted and malicious and somehow out to get him and there is "no excuse" for their faults. His relationship with me runs from wonderfully attentive to downright hostile and adversarial.

 

Mom took care of everything, cheerfully and never asking anything in return. When he treated her with disrespect, she apologized for doing him wrong. Basically, he was brought up to delegate, bully and bark orders and get what he wants. He was brought up to have someone always at hand to listen with endless fascination about his personal problems. He always had someone to tell him that no matter what someone else said, however innocuous or well-intentioned, if he felt offended, he was RIGHT and that person was a jealous ass. He always had someone else to hand any work or problem to, so that he never had to solve problems or do anything he did not want to do.

 

And so life continues for him. I have told him all of this and he just thinks I too am jealous and ungrateful for all the wonderful things his Mom does for us.

 

He lived with her until he married me at age 38. She continues to be a daily presence in our lives.

 

Hearing his sister tell me that I am more or less correct in my view is a wake up. I can't just keep thinking that I can only control my own behaviors and focus on what I am doing wrong. I need to somehow determine if there is ever any hope that he will wake up and grow up. I do not feel very optimistic about that right now, but I do intend to keep working on it.

 

I wish that he could be made to understand what a profound disservice this woman did to him to keep him spoiled and dependent and mistrustful, only to serve her own ego. Now he is an adult who does not know how to cope with anything on his own and doesn't know how to interact with people in a way that makes them inspired to help.

 

I definitely feel sorry for him, and would do almost anything to help him through this, if only he could see it and acknowledge it. But I won't tell him he is right and I CERTAINLY won't become her.

[a4a]

 

He lived with her until he married me at age 38. She continues to be a daily presence in our lives.

 

.

 

 

:eek::eek: People this is a HUGE RED FLAG - never get involved with a guy that lives at home (exception having an ill parent that needs daily care).

 

LUV - I think you might be in love with the guy you wish he was.

[a4a]

Interesting:

 

Luv, you seem to be blaming his mother for his behavior more than you blame him.

 

He is an adult and is able to make his own choices.

[luvstarved]

Interesting:

 

Luv, you seem to be blaming his mother for his behavior more than you blame him.

 

He is an adult and is able to make his own choices.

 

Well, yes, I realize it is more convenient to blame her than to blame him.

Still, it does seem, and has been corroborated now, that she is the one who

was the adult all while he was growing up, and cultivated this relationship.

 

He could have gotten out, I suppose, but the sense is that she has kept him

afraid to reach out to other people because they are all out to get him.

 

In other words, he SHOULD be an adult by now, but his deep bond with her

has kept him from doing so. By his age, yes he has to have some accountability...

 

But it really depends on what he wants. I have complained all along that I

could not really get close to him or get the sense of being wanted that the

marriage should include...only this panicky sense from him that he is desperate for me to stay...but that mainly because I do all the caretaking

and problem solving.

 

What I am saying is that I think if he thought that it could be him and Mom til the end of time, he would not give a rat's ass about the rest of the world.

 

When he asked me to marry him, he was all "I was not looking for this, but YOU are so special", etc. Years later, in counseling, when asked why he married, he said "my parents and I decided it was time".

 

I just don't know what to do with this information now that I am "vindicated" by the rest of his family. I have been avoiding interacting with

H, begged off sex again so now he thinks I am REALLY being weird (but the

idea of him going later to describe it to Mommy makes me want to puke),

but have a counseling appt this afternoon...Plus, H and I are supposed to drive to Manhattan for the weekend and I do not know how I can put on a

fake face for that long a ride, or for a whole weekend.

 

Cripes, I don't want to say "your whole family thinks you are a sick puppy" but this new information is relevant to the whole dynamic for me...sigh.

 

Well, something will come out of my mouth and it will have consequences. As always, time will tell.

 

Thanks again for the input.

[hotgurl]

luv,

look at how short your list of positives is and how long the list of negatvies is.

 

Plus why do you tolerate his treatment of your daughters. They may say it's ok mom to your face but I doubt they are really ok with it.

[luvstarved]

Well, spoke to counselor and also briefly to H (he had somewhere to go so could not get into it much)

 

Counselor said that conversation did not really change anything and that I needed to continue the couples work but also work on finding joy on my own.

 

H asked about the counseling session and I basically said that I was feeling confused about how much one should expect from a relationship and what is the difference between not getting what you need and expecting too much.

I avoided telling about the conversation with sister as I knew that would cause a whole family explosion.

 

He immediately wanted to get to the bottom line. Was I thinking of leaving or not? Nothing about it's a fine line, and how can I help, etc. Then he talked about the emotional roller coaster of being with me, and how he did not trust me. I pointed out that I had always consistently said I loved him while he had one day told me I made him happier than he'd ever been and the next that he only tolerated me for the sake of our child. He said THAT was different.

 

I told him that he never trusted anyone but his mom and I had been thinking about some things she had said and it struck me that he had been discussing our sex life with her all along! He did not deny it! I told him that made me feel icky. He said that he could not trust me because I had big emotional issues. Then he pointed out that one day I wanted sex and the next I did not (I said no twice this week for the first time in AGES because I was feeling icky about this whole phone call, meanwhile he avoided sex with me for 7 years, and only acquiesced when I threatened to leave)

 

I told him I felt bad even having THIS conversation because I knew it was going straight to his mother's ears. He said that I was difficult and he had to talk to SOMEONE about me.

 

Pretty much what I expected. It finished with him leaving kind of angry and me saying go run to mommy now!!

 

He'll be home any minute. The knots in my stomach are growing.

 

Sigh.

[Darth Vader]

Well, I just passed on sex this morning which I never do so he knows something is up. Also mentioned that I seemed forlorn last night.

 

The conversation went more like she would bring something up and I would agree and then give an example from my experience then she would give more examples from her experience.

 

She could never so much as have a cup of coffee alone with Mom because he always had to be there.

 

When he was smoking pot in his room she told his mother and mom said "how do YOU know its pot, leave him alone"

 

He always yelled and spoke disrespectfully to parents until he got his way, which he always did.

 

He always told Mom everything. When he dated a recent divorcee who was not ready for a physical relationship, she was blabbing all over to the whole family about how this woman was being unfair to him for not "giving him any".

 

He and she used to have many private conversations about his sex life and his father was very disgusted by it.

 

When he and I were in sexless phase, sometimes she would out of nowhere start talking to me about how when the sex goes, the marriage is virtually over and an affair must be about to happen.

 

He's mentioned twice to me about getting "sexual signals" from his Mom without really explaining it.

 

His sister told me that Mom has always gone around telling the world how handsome and sexy H is.

 

He never had to do any chores at all and Mom always would jump when he said jump. Also, no matter what he was doing, she would be right there being a spectator, from little league games to him splashing in the pool or playing hockey in the back yard. Sitting there like a fan the whole time. STILL does this watching him play in an over 30 baseball league.

 

Sister started naming off relatives to whom she had spoken about this over the years and that they all thought that the relationship was "abnormal". Way beyond mother and son closeness.

 

Said that mom had always agreed with everything he said, he was always right, everyone else was always a malicious a**hole or "just jealous". Even if he changed his mind 180 in a conversation, her mind would go 180 too.

 

H tells her everything, even when I have made him promise not to, and not a month later after agonizing over it, but at the very earliest opportunity.

 

I have walked into the house many times and the conversation would cease and there would be major awkwardness in the air.

 

The worst part, is my sister in law telling me with NO provocation, that the whole family felt so sorry for my daughters for the way he treated them (his stepdaughters). I cried about this because I was always trying to allow that I was not seeing things clearly, as he and his Mom had both been telling me. I did talk to my daughters later about this, and they were like, don't worry Mom, when someone acts as crazy as he does, you just don't respect them or give any weight to anything they say, so it doesn't bother us any more, we just want nothing to do with him, but if he makes you happy, stay with him.

 

He was engaged to be married about a year before I met him. All he had told me of this relationship was that the woman "had emotional issues" and that's why he broke up with her. Sis told me that SHE dumped HIM and in the end said she never wanted anything to do with him again. Also said that he was not able to get anyone to be his best man and that was embarrassing all around. Sis did not know what the catalyst for the breakup was (why would they tell her?) but it was definitely the woman's idea, and she has never contacted my H so obviously there was no lingering regrets on her part...my H has never indicated that he felt anything about this.

 

Sis also confirmed that I am the only long term relationship he has ever had. She even said that she thought that in some weird way his relationships with women came across as secondary or even some kind of strange betrayal of Mom.

 

During our sexless years, he would go over to Moms and hang around ALL WEEKEND LONG, being served and telling her God knows what. Now he stays home, but will not help around the house, rather just reads, watches tv and floats in the pool. Claims that what weekends are for. I started "striking", not cleaning either, then he started complaining about how the house looks.

 

His buzzphrases are "look in the mirror", "I am not the problem", "your daughters are the problem", "my mother is a saint", "you're jealous of my relationship with my Mom", etc.

 

His mom totally violates my space, responds when my 8 year old says "Mom", goes out and buys seasonal stuff for her way early so that I don't get the chance and goes into every nook and cranny of the house, doing what she wants.

 

One day she did not know I was here and went into the master bath even though the main bath was free. She was in there over 5 minutes "exploring". Then came out and saw me and said, I thought someone was in the other bathroom.

 

Now, the capper is that she raised my H to mistrust everyone else, to totally depend on her, and to not have to do anything but what he wanted, while telling him he was the greatest, etc. The two of them together, as virtual husband and wife, are doing the same to my daughter. This happens because she watches her when school is out, etc. and spoils her as she did him. When we are all around and I try to discipline or get cooperation from my daughter, they gang up on me and tell me I am being mean or crabby, or excuse any rude remark or refusal to do what I ask with "she's just tired". But when my H wants her to do something (like be quiet because he is trying to sleep), he doesn't ask nicely but SCREAMS at her until she is in tears. I told him the other night that yellng at a sobbing little girl was not an effective way to calm them down, and he said "Stop being such a critical ***hole. You are treating me like a child". I said "Then stop acting like a child, for once".

 

So the bottom line is that his feelings and needs trump EVERYONE else's, followed by his daughter, then his Mom, and I am not a blood relative, so I must have some evil hidden agenda going on.

 

He treats me very well when I am complying with this wishes or he wants me to take care of something he doesn't know how to (which is a great many things). But if I have a mood or unmet need, he never supports but uses it as an excuse to support the theory that I am unkind and demanding, etc.

 

I have lived with 5 other men. This one is loyal, reliable, doesn't drink smoke or do drugs. All that is a lot. And I do think he means well. But he was raised with a set of expectations that I have no power or intention to live up to, and has a pathological bond established that I do not t hink I can break.

 

When I try to tell him that others see his anger and nervousness, too, he has said that he and his Mom agree that I am the one with issues and that the rest of the world is wrong. She is right because she is around more often, blah blah. Plus, it is in total agreement with what he says, coincidentally...so it's GOTTA be true. Plus, his degree is in counseling and mine is in computer science, so ... his credential proves that he is people-savvy and I am a clueless geek. Despite the fact that I have dated dozens of men and lived with 5 others and he doesn't even have one LTR in his past, and no friends that I have ever met. WHATEVER Sheba!!!

 

Sorry to blather on but this is so fresh. If I had been reading all my own posts all along, I can't help but admit that I would be thinking "Fer cripe's sake, get out of this!". I don't know why I keep clinging to hope in the face of all this discouraging reality...

 

 

You know, these counselors you speak of have to take Psychological courses to get their degree, those psych courses are the study of the mind, even how to manipulate another person into doing what they want, or feeling the way they want. This man sounds Narcisstic! He MUST CONTROL anything, anyone, or he'll cry like a baby and scream. My advice is to get the HELL away from him! I don't usually put it like this, but this guy is just freaky, even by my standards! Can you see about divorcing this man quick? You deserve much better!

[luvstarved]

Well he came home and the usual occurred. He blasted me for being difficult, emotionally immature, irrational and untrustworthy. He said we have a lot at stake - a house, kids, a cat, a dog... He said his mother has nothing to do with OUR problems and that I am just jealous of her. I persisted in trying to make the point that I am just trying to sort out my unmet needs and that I love him but I need him to love me, too. He talked about his sobriety and said that he gave me plenty and I just did not appreciate it. I talked about the betrayal of him going to his mother with things I had asked him to keep confidential. He said that me saying that was a betrayal of him.

 

I told him that he had gone his whole life feeling justified in his anger and that it had been a problem in every area of his life. I told him that I pushed with all my might to get him to see that he had this anger issue and that he had finally seen it and was working on it. I pointed out that nobody else had ever done that for him, and did not that even hint to him that what I was trying to achieve was to help him be a better man and for us to have a better marriage. He seemed to have a mental short circuit on that one.

 

Then I said that he did not have anything that I wanted other than him, I did not want the house or anything else (just my financial stake in it). Somehow that calmed him down (the house sucks, frankly, but he thinks it's great).

 

Then he was like, oh you love me and want to work things out? THAT'S different! We're okay then!! Hey, I trust you with my LIFE!!! And I said, but this happens EVERY TIME where you jump to the conclusion that I am being insulting and adversarial even though I consistently tell you that I love you and am doing everything in my power to make this work! Why can't I say anything about my needs without you taking it as an attack!!! Then I said that I knew exactly what those needs were, and that I had expressed them to him on multiple occasions but that I bet he could not tell me what any of them were.

 

Then, he said that no other man would put up with me and I said, 4 others did and I left THEM and then he said that I would never get as much from another man as I get from him and I said I already had gotten more from a man. I should not have made these remarks, but they were not in response to his kindness, let's face it.

 

It went on a long time, vicious crap from past included, and in the end we agreed that I would write up these unmet needs and take them to our next counseling session. I told him that I would work on letting go of anything that the Dr told me was an unreasonable demand.

 

When he went on and on about his mother being a saint, I did finally break down and hinted about the conversation with his sister, but said a little and then said THAT was a private conversation and I didn't want to go further. He seemed a bit hit in the face by that, but let it go, surprisingly.

 

Well, guess I should get cracking on writing up my big emotionally immature and irrational needs...

[Sheba]

Ah, this is hard to read.

 

Your interaction with your husband sounds so much like the sort of ugly conversations my husband and I have.

 

Worse, I can tell you this: I have been there in counselling and it has not helped.

 

Our counsellor has told my husband that many of my "emotionally immature and irrational needs" are common and ordinary and should be met by him. She tells him quite specifically what he should do. And, sitting in the counsellor's office, he seems to agree. But, in real life situations, nothing has changed and he seems to have forgotten completely that my needs have been "endorsed". He says things like "this is the best you are going to get from me" and "I am doing nothing wrong".

 

So now, of course, things are even a bit worse. I have been told that my expectations are not "crazy" , but typical. I can't even doubt myself anymore.

[luvstarved]

Ah, this is hard to read.

 

Your interaction with your husband sounds so much like the sort of ugly conversations my husband and I have.

 

Worse, I can tell you this: I have been there in counselling and it has not helped.

 

Our counsellor has told my husband that many of my "emotionally immature and irrational needs" are common and ordinary and should be met by him. She tells him quite specifically what he should do. And, sitting in the counsellor's office, he seems to agree. But, in real life situations, nothing has changed and he seems to have forgotten completely that my needs have been "endorsed". He says things like "this is the best you are going to get from me" and "I am doing nothing wrong".

 

So now, of course, things are even a bit worse. I have been told that my expectations are not "crazy" , but typical. I can't even doubt myself anymore.

 

Geez I started to respond and got called away, left the house, H went home first and I was panicking that he would get on the computer. CLose call, he did not.

 

Anyway, the rub is that I am a tenacious biotch and I know that I am going to pound away at this situation until I am 100% convinced that he will not change at all and also that I cannot live with the way that he is. To be honest, I am willing to settle for some middle ground, but all of that has to be examined and defined...and the only way to do that that I know of (given our inability to handle it) is in counseling.

 

My head tells me that he will not change at all. But I thought that about the things that HAVE improved too, so I am keeping an open mind.

 

The funny part is that it seems as though he is the one who is SOOOOO worried about divorce, yet he is the one who doesn't really seem to love me. I know I love him (if we could just remove the "selfish prick" veneer, he does have good qualities) but I am willing to leave if I cannot also get my basic needs properly served. He says that he has no complaints about me other than my complaints of him, yet when we try to discuss anything, I am all the irrational, unstable crap.

 

An enigma wrapped in a mystery within a conundrum - not to mention the veneer of selfish prick!!

 

Keep me updated on your situation, Sheba - I am still hoping for positive changes for both of us...

[Bobby NoBrains]

I love your latest reply Excellent spirit ...

 

Reading your posts, it seems to me that your husband has an emotional over-dependence on his mom, and it's not gonna change easily. Unless he understands that he has a problem, it will not go away on it's own ...

 

It sounds from your posts that these problems have only built up over time and you are at a stage where you have begun to resent his attitudes and refusal to accept his own short-comings .. That means the problems are becoming more than you can handle, and your self-respect and dignity are not able to allow the situation to continue without being addressed, and quite soon at that .. Not a good place to be on the marriage front, but I'd say, a good place to be for your own joy as an individual.

 

 

Even a doctor needs to see another doctor for his own illness .. So even though he may have a degree in psychology, he still won't be able to see his own problems. Personally I feel that psychological counseling only works when a person has realized and admitted his own problem, and is willing to work at getting rid of it, but if there's someone who needs counseling it is him more than you.

 

Can't suggest anything about where you go from here, but otherwise just hang in there best as you can, and hope that he will agree for IC and MC and that he will accept his own short-comings, esp his over-dependence on his mom .. Perhaps letting him know that his constant refusal to accept his own behaviour (sp?) and mistakes is going to damage your marriage, perhaps irreparably, might serve as a wake up call ... But make sure you only use that ultimatum if you mean it, because saying it and not following up will only strengthen his attitudes about how right he is :/

 

Good luck and god bless

 

 

Just my two bits ..

 

Bobby

[Sheba]

Mothers! We do a lot of bad and good. Your MIL was TOO loving, coddled her son and invaded his boundaries, leaving him a little crippled. My late MIL was not loving at all, criticized and shamed her son - and perhaps worse - also leaving him crippled.

 

Luvstarved - did you go to MC today? How are things?

 

Last week, I went alone to MC. My husband had a conflict, and then the conflict disappeared but he decided to not go. He seemed a little concerned that I went alone (and asked me immediately upon my return if I still loved him), but I guess he just wanted a break. Perhaps he realized his recent CRAZIES would be discussed and he didn't feel up to it.

 

So, I went, and discussed the crazies by myself. I told the counsellor that all of this was very wearing on me. I never know from day to day if I will be treated like trash or treasure. Her plan is to "step up" the disclosure of the mother issues. She is convinced that if he realizes that his mother treated him badly and that the anger he pours out at me was really earned by her, then he will have insight and gain control.

 

It has been 7 months since this theory was formed and we have made little progress. Like your husband, Luvstarved, mine can be very sweet and doting if all his mood ducks are lined in an orderly row. If any step out of line, however, watch it! I am the target, and he will say any cruel thing that comes to mind.

 

This is typical: on Saturday we went for dinner with his dad and his mentally ill son. He was tense about having them out. Dad picks his nose at the table. Son may hear voices at any minute and need to leave. Who gets the nitpicking at the table? Well, me, of course. First because I was reading the menu aloud to blind Dad "too loudly" . Dad is also mostly deaf, btw. Secondly because I had my cell phone on the table and my daughter might call (his cell phone was on the table too, because his son might call). Next it was because I had started sipping my wine before eating and you know, I might get drunk. All of this is delivered to me with the "very mad face" . I start to realize that none of what I am doing would be as interesting to other diners (the focus of his concern) as seeing him talking to me with that look on his face.

 

I am tough - like you Luvstarved - but not made of steel. When do we say "I love him, but he is poison" and give him up?

[luvstarved]

I love your latest reply Excellent spirit ...

 

Reading your posts, it seems to me that your husband has an emotional over-dependence on his mom, and it's not gonna change easily. Unless he understands that he has a problem, it will not go away on it's own ...

 

It sounds from your posts that these problems have only built up over time and you are at a stage where you have begun to resent his attitudes and refusal to accept his own short-comings .. That means the problems are becoming more than you can handle, and your self-respect and dignity are not able to allow the situation to continue without being addressed, and quite soon at that .. Not a good place to be on the marriage front, but I'd say, a good place to be for your own joy as an individual.

 

 

Even a doctor needs to see another doctor for his own illness .. So even though he may have a degree in psychology, he still won't be able to see his own problems. Personally I feel that psychological counseling only works when a person has realized and admitted his own problem, and is willing to work at getting rid of it, but if there's someone who needs counseling it is him more than you.

 

Can't suggest anything about where you go from here, but otherwise just hang in there best as you can, and hope that he will agree for IC and MC and that he will accept his own short-comings, esp his over-dependence on his mom .. Perhaps letting him know that his constant refusal to accept his own behaviour (sp?) and mistakes is going to damage your marriage, perhaps irreparably, might serve as a wake up call ... But make sure you only use that ultimatum if you mean it, because saying it and not following up will only strengthen his attitudes about how right he is :/

 

Good luck and god bless

 

 

Just my two bits ..

 

Bobby

 

Thank you for your reply Bobby...I have made the ultimatum (that's how I got a sex life back) again and again (and that's how I got him to see, if only sporadically, that he has an anger issue). It is also apparently how I got him to "not trust me" ("you are not committed enough if you keep threatening to leave"). But, not giving up! But, yes, prepared to follow through if he calls me on it.

[luvstarved]

Sheba, it sounds like we have the same husband, sprung from the loins of mothers who were opposites. WTF?????????????????????????????

 

Your story about the restaurant is soooooo familiar. I can TOTALLY relate to that...and the daily "trash or treasure" question...I am curious, how do you respond to him when he says things like he said to you at the restaurant? If you're like me, it probably depends somewhat on your mood, but was just wondering...

 

You sound a bit more upbeat, though, and I am glad to hear that. I imagine that your H has been presented with the mother theory in some direct manner in the course of 7 months. Does he flatly deny it? I seem to recall that he thought it might be vaguely relevant, but was mostly a relationship red herring...? Someone else reading might think, 7 months and so little progress! Give it up! But I know, you are like me, and have to think of the preceding years, and hold tight to ANY whiff of progress as a sign of true hope...

 

As to my story, sigh! It is such a roller coaster...some recent highlights.

 

1) Found out that, 2 minutes after the conversation in which I said "go call Mommy now", he indeed called Mommy. I asked him what she had been told and he said he did NOT call her. I said, phone records don't lie. He said OH so you were checking the phone records. I said, they're right there when I pay the bill. He said that he honestly did not recall having called her or what they might have talked about. Yuh huh. I dropped it.

 

2) Trip to Manhattan - lovely ride. The trip itself was alternately fabulously fun and miserable. Misery was from 3 separate incidents where he crawled up my butt so far over trivial time issues (asking endless questions about why are we sitting here, what are we doing, what's taking so long, if it were me, I would have done things this way, we're going to be late, see, we're late even though we're 25 minutes earlier than we'd decided on, are you ready, you almost done eating, do you know where we're going, should I ask directions, I would have done things differently, blah blah blah) that I ultimately said more or less, get off my back...which turned into a tirade from him about my anger issues. But in between we had so much fun and he looked at me at times like he was enchanted with me and that felt SOOOO good

 

3) back home, issues with my kids (them wanting to do too many sleepovers and not being easy to get up in the morning). He probes with the endless questions until I say that, yes, I do believe that he has contributed to their issues, that he is not the whole story but he is a part of the story. He takes this to mean that I am blaming him, scapegoating, am delusional about their problems and a crappy mother. He launches in AGAIN with the he is right and I have deep emotional problems routine.

This comes up in the counseling.

 

4) Counseling today, was going to talk about "unmet needs: what are realistic expectations in a marriage?" but H was hellbent on discussing the kids. He went on a long speech about how he had tried to be involved but that I had pulled his teeth, how immensely difficult my kids were, how I was afraid of them and let them do whatever they wanted, how I wanted to turn around and lay ALL the blame at HIS feet, how he had been a great father, etc and did not get any respect and how concerned he was that I should have this twisted, negative and undeserved view of him. He alluded, as he often does, to MY being manipulated, "buying" their assertion that he was hostile and unreasonable.

 

I countered with, first I did not lay ALL the blame but felt that he did contribute. That he had no use for my kids when he got his own, that the rules and punishments he doled out were completely arbitrary and inconsistent, except for that they were clearly directed at minimizing his interactions with them, that he had a MEGA double standard, and could not get respect because he always lost his temper, and did not give any respect to them. That he would never compromise on the topic of house rules and would always steamroll so that what he said, went. That my attempts to spend time with them or show them affection were characterized by him as taking away from his and our daughter's time, and as me "kowtowing" to them. And that he has called them bitches and morons and that he can't wait for them to be out of his house, etc.

 

Dr. asked H what he needed from me in this situation. Answer? Work with him to forge a better relationship with them? Discuss rules with respect and compromise? Anything like that? NOPE! He just doesn't want to be scapegoated.

 

Dr. said that it was a tough situation, complicated, but that what H needed to do was focus less on what was wrong with the kids and more on how he can do better in the situation. To work on a warmer relationship with them and to DEFER TO ME on decisions of discipline. H countered with a comment that he was forced to defer to me as I had "pulled his teeth" and I clarified with Dr that he meant that deferring to me was the APPROPRIATE thing to do, not the last resort.

 

Then H started telling some other minor anecdote about what one of them had done and that exasperated me...did he not JUST HEAR about focusing on HIS behaviors. Dr. said he appreciated how difficult it must be for me to be in the middle of this, etc.

 

Later, H tried to mitigate what the Dr. said...I'll try to be warmer but they are never home, it'll never be hugs and kisses, and that he was not going to "just be silent" over issues involving them. School has started and yesterday one daughter was late because I have not adjusted to the schedule and overslept. He is up early and of course could have woken me up but chose not to. So last night when I went to bed (admittedly at 2 am but he went to bed before 9 so I would have disturbed him anyway) I was setting my own alarm clock and he got all indignant because I set it for 6 and his was set for 6:15 and he did not see why HE should have to be disturbed at 6. I said I didn't see why I had to be disturbed at 6:15 all summer for him to get up (I don't go to work til 9) but that's life. I wanted to say I didn't see why I had to get up at 6:15 if I ever wanted sex but held my tongue on that one. Anyway, according to him, HIS alarm clock is not disturbing, just mine.

 

As to his mother, she is NOT the problem, MINE is. AND my father. They are the ones who screwed me up. They didn't love me ENOUGH and so I am jealous of his mother. Never mind that they have not been a daily presence in my life for 30 years, and that his mother has been from day one to the present for him. SHE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING! I was wondering if your H had similar resistance...7 months is longish for this to still be on the cusp...so was wondering...

 

Also at Dr, he had asked during a "discussion" at home for me to drop the subject until counseling and let's just try to focus on positives, I didn't at first, but after a few minutes did and tried to proceed as normal. So at Dr, "all this stuff came up and now she tries to act like nothing is wrong"! So even when I give him what he wants, it's not right?

 

At this point, people on both sides of family and other people as well have made comments about him that accord with my view. I told him that I did love him and that telling him about his behaviors was the right thing to do. I told him I knew he was nervous and sympathized but that he made everyone around him nervous and edgy too and I think he needs to know that. He said that he knew plenty of people who disagreed with that assessment but was unable to name one. He also said that I have deep issues and that if I want to talk about THOSE, he was willing. I told him I welcomed that, but he was unable to name one of those, either, except me "being critical" towards him.

 

Bottom line has not changed. He wants control without responsibility.

 

On a positive note, while he knew that I had wanted to talk about my unmet needs and he switched it over to "her kids" and I was at first peeved about that...it turned out to have what I hope will be a silver lining... my Dr works with a relationship guru who wrote the book that helped us more than anything has so far...and he is doing a pilot program on parenting. My Dr is trying to hook us into that, a 2 day workshop. The leader, a fairly well known author, usually charges like $1500 for a 1/2 day counseling session but we get the two day workshop for $300. I cannot help but think that if H goes to a 2 day seminar and gets the CLEAR UNADULTERATED message that he has not done a "great job" with my kids that it will be another turning point...it is at least something else to hang my hopes on.

Plus maybe we will be one of the anonymous couples featured in his next book Ah brushes with greatness.

 

I assume you have your counseling today...please report back when you can.

[cj1988]

I know that my posts are not the same as this but have some similarities. My husband was emotionally or may still be with his sister. She became his best friend and maybe even more. She would introduce him to her friends with a shine in her eyes and say " He is so gorgeous, just look at him" so I know the werid fellings and situations and OTHERS saw it as well. So, how can so many people be wrong? I am close to MOM, sister and brother, but NOT in a strange gross way.

 

It is a creepy feeling that is hard to shake especially if you are still in love with them and know the "Good" side of them. Remember these 2 men have attachments issus and probably do not know how to fix them. Then again, these are not issues WE should be trying to fix. You can either make the choice as I have to TRY and make it work with or without the mother in your lives or leave. Baby, it is the hardest thing I have ever been through in my life and I am very unsure as to what is going happen.

 

My H like yours says that he loves his sister very much and I am crazy, jealous and insecure. Well, as you see the blame is on me, how sad is that. So, take it one day at the time. Read my posts and see if it helps, not the same, but somewhat the same.

[Bobby NoBrains]

luvstarved, after reading your last post, I have to say it seems proper that you are on this forum and not on the separation forum Even though your problems seem huge, at least the work that you are both (wtf ? ) putting into this gives me an upbeat feeling about the two of you .. From what you write about him, he has a huge ego (prolly brought up as spoilt by his mum), and though he's in major denial, you seem to be getting through. Hehe, so sorry, but I can see it feels like you're chipping away at the rock of gibraltar with a fork

 

Still your posts are so much more positive than the separation forum ones, that I have huge confidence in your pulling through this safely and happily Hang in there, girl ..

 

Just my two bits ..

 

Bobby

[luvstarved]

luvstarved, after reading your last post, I have to say it seems proper that you are on this forum and not on the separation forum Even though your problems seem huge, at least the work that you are both (wtf ? ) putting into this gives me an upbeat feeling about the two of you .. From what you write about him, he has a huge ego (prolly brought up as spoilt by his mum), and though he's in major denial, you seem to be getting through. Hehe, so sorry, but I can see it feels like you're chipping away at the rock of gibraltar with a fork

 

Still your posts are so much more positive than the separation forum ones, that I have huge confidence in your pulling through this safely and happily Hang in there, girl ..

 

Just my two bits ..

 

Bobby

 

Bobby,

 

Your posts are so encouraging, a breath of fresh air. Thank you, it helps more than you know...