luvstarved Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 There have not been any updates on your situation lately and I was hoping that you would let us know how things are going...
Sheba Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 Thanks for asking, luvstarved. We are still going to counselling, but I feel progress is being made at a snail's pace, if at all. The counsellor has told my husband he needs to apologize to me, to make things up to me. Here is a neutral third party telling him this (and not giving me the same advice!) and yet he clings to his theory that we have trashed our relationship equally. Part of me thinks "well, as long as his behaviour changes, I don't need apologies or admissions or retribution". The other part of me thinks that he needs acknowledge his mistakes or is destined to repeat them. His temper is still hot, of course, but we have not had a big fight in quite a while. This is what keeps me going, despite the apparent lack of progress. I can't put my kids through more crap, but I guess I can give him a chance to come around so long as it is not hurting them. My son still watches our relationship like a hawk, of course. Poor boy! Our latest little crisis involves a family holiday - him and I and my 2 kids - that he committed to and now has backed out of. I am very disappointed and hurt, as I find his reasons poor. He has work to do which he could accomplish in time, but chooses to golf instead. I decided yesterday after hearing his final "I won't go" that I would take my kids and go without him - he broke his commitment to me, but I won't break mine to them. Ironically, his view on the fact that I booked flights is that I am making the choice to go on a holiday without hm. Of course it is my view that he is making a choice to stay home after promising the kids and I a holiday. Whatever! My kids and I - we are a tight little unit - will have a nice time without him. Nicer perhaps, because we can walk for miles without worrying about his sore back or feet. They will get the right message - that they are number 1 to me. He might recognize this outcome for what it is - a demonstration by me that people don't break promises to people they love. He comes to counselling every week. The only signs of progress is that now he says "I won't flirt with the secretary" and "I won't go golfing with women". Imagine - I have had to fight for these "concessions"! I feel as if they ought to have been given upon the asking, years ago, when I told him I felt uncomfortable. The counsellor seems to still hold out hope that she will get him to see that he has been taking out on me the anger that he feels towards his mother. I wonder if I can wait? I am still always on the edge of my seat, expecting the blow up and threats and name-calling. He still harbours his version of reality, that I provoke him and cause him to behave like that. Sigh. How are things with you? You were very hopeful when I last read posts about your progress in counselling. I did read your thread about your husband laughing at the failures of others - not a good sign! I agree with the person who responded saying that your husband needed to bolster his self-esteem by putting down others. My husband has a bit of that too, but thankfully not towards the children. Perhaps all is well otherwise? Are you still going to counselling? Are you getting laid?
Author luvstarved Posted August 23, 2007 Author Posted August 23, 2007 Hi Sheba, OMG this is a LOOOOOOOONG one, no wonder it took me so long to get around to it... Thank you for the update. It does sound like you are making progress, although I admit it sounds slow and is not yet sufficient to give you enough to feel secure about how things will turn out. That progress sounds two-fold. First, it IS something to get concessions, even if grudgingly and late. And the fact that he is continuing with the counseling is good... and the "relative calm" is positive, even though it does sound like you are waiting for the other shoe to drop...it IS possible that it won't drop and you'll eventually come to believe that it won't. The other side of it is you deciding to go on the vacation without him. I think it stinks that he did not honor his commitment, but great that you did not let that alter your plans. And being in a similar situation in a lot of ways, I can relate to the notion that it will be (or has been, as the case may be) a more relaxed scenario without him. But more than that, it is very positive for you to not let his funk/unreliable behavior/blame attempt steer you away from the reality that you see before you...and to act upon that reality in a way that serves the best interests of YOURSELF (and your kids). Naturally, you want those best interests to converge into harmony with him, but when that's not possible, to be able to say, ok, bad for us, but ok for me and move on is the next best thing. The only thing I would say more about that is to enjoy the vacation for itself, let his lack of participation go, let the fact that he missed out be its own punishment...and don't go bringing it up with him after the fact...that would take away from the mature step you took to merrily proceed without him when he would not honor the commitment. Also, it sounds like he has not yet made the breakthrough to take full ownership of his anger, and that is very troublesome. I really think that that is a key factor in things for you. I hope that the counselor is trying to zero in on this angle. I know they are trying to get to this relationship with his mother as a catalyst and root cause, but I hope not at the expense of focusing on the present. I know with my H, the realization that he owned his anger was the pivotal epiphany from which all our further progress has sprung...but even though when it finally happened it felt sudden, it only happened after tons of angles of it were presented to him...which he deflected as well and as long as he could...anyway, hang in there and keep at it. You ARE making progress and as long as that is true I think there is a lot of room for hope and optimism. I do have one question for you...suppose you were never to get any apologies for the past, and never any overt acknowledgment of his own emotional responsibilities from the past...BUT his behavior continued to change and improve and future transgressions were acknowledged and apologized for just as you always wanted (and yes, should have been able to expect)? I guess I am asking, if he were to internally realize his past crap and work to correct it, while being too proud to admit it, would that be ok? You could easily argue that if he really corrected it, then the past admissions/apologies would flow easily...but in some ways that is how it has gone down with my H, and I find myself increasingly ok with it... As for my situation, yes, it is definitely improving. We took the incident about the laughing to the counselor and of course H was told he was wrong and it did not matter whether he was kidding, what mattered is how I felt, and telling me that my feelings were "wrong" was a serious boundary violation, etc. Otherwise, we are getting along much better. Getting better at nipping our irrational sides in the bud, so that what used to be blowups are now just testy moments that are apologized for and gotten past. Getting better at respecting each other, not joining in with whoever's being crazy at the moment, trying to support rather than compete, etc. A large part of it is just following the model that has been presented to us. Now we are able to recognize the "losing strategies" in communication and point them out to each other. They do still happen, somewhat from habit, somewhat from real differences in our thinking, but when they do, the OTHER person is able to point it out. Like, when my husband starts in with "well, YOU..." I can just stop him and say..."don't go there with the blame..." and he will stop and rethink. That is really really a lot... We are also doing a lot more "dating" and he is REALLY into that...maybe a little too much as the $$$ are starting to add up. But, we used to go out and end up bickering and now we actually enjoy the company. Two years ago (last year of our sexless phase) I practically dragged him to an overnight date to get laid (it worked, but not as well as I'd fantasized). Now, it was HIS idea to go to Manhattan for the weekend. Quite a difference. I still have issues with the sex life but as things are steadily improving I am trying not to make that a big issue for now. There is definite progress, both in him trying a BIT harder...but also in me trying to acknowledge that perhaps we have different needs along those lines. I am considering the possibility that he is sexually a creature of habit...as in almost every aspect of life he is. So what I think becomes routine and a little boring, is somehow a comfort for him. And also that sex is more of just a release to him where it is more of a romantic intimate interlude for me. That is not to say that I am just going to forever accept the rather business-like and routine manner with which this proceeds, but I am going to try to let the intimacy continue to gradually build, as it has been. He thinks things along those lines are GRREAT! And I know part of what shattered things before was his perception that I was criticizing his performance, so I have to tread lightly. There is one other area of progress and that is more in the "me" realm and that is my recent decision to try to completely cut loose all the mystery and confusion of the past, and with that, to let go of my jealousy. I had become obsessed with needing to understand why we were sexless for so long, what was going on with him, whether I was just being used for domestic convenience, blah blah. Even as things improved, I felt that I needed to know what this and that action and remark "really meant" from the past, as though something were lurking that rendered any progress just all part of some elaborate ruse on his part to keep me around for the practical stuff. Of course, if it weren't for the progress we have made, I would still be going on about all that. But I no longer feel I need to know what went wrong and what his thoughts and feelings WERE. Even thinking, he probably didn't fully realize himself. What matters is what is going on now. Along with that, I am trying to be done with the jealousy and am having good success with that, too. Again, admittedly because he is now treating and regarding me the way I want...but I am amazed at myself now that I can think of him at work, riding around with these women, and being able to go on with , so what, he'll be home tonight. But even better, thinking about it at all less and less often...in retrospect, I feel that my jealousy did all start with clear red flags so it isn't that I felt like I was deranged about it or anything. But it wasn't helping anything and since I did my investigations and he was exonerated, anyway, it is time to cease and desist with the hypervigilance. Not that I'll EVER allow myself to be blinded... I did realize the other day though that one of the biggest things in me about desperately wanting to get things back on track has to do with getting older. Might sound shallow, but whatever: I felt that it was vitally important that we reconnected while we were still young enough to be really physically fit and attractive. I felt that if we did not get to the point of intimacy that we loved each other's bodies because we loved each other's souls, then my hopes of a geriatric sex life were in the toilet. And baby I WANT that geriatric sex life! I know that probably sounds weird, but I admit that that timing issue was weighing on me... Well, you probably weren't looking for all THAT much information, but verbosity is me! Anyway I am sure I will still post stuff about annoying things, setbacks, etc because they do still happen and I can't say I feel out of the woods yet. In some ways this feels like a second honeymoon phase and since the first one did not last, I have to have doubts about this one. But, I also have to have hope, and I am trying to keep that in the forefront. Please do keep me updated. I miss the weekly reports!! If you would like to PM me so we could stay in touch directly, please do... WIll be thinking of you with best wishes!
Sheba Posted August 28, 2007 Posted August 28, 2007 Luvstarved I appreciate your wordiness! I have the same failing, or virtue, depending on your point of view. First of all, to answer your question: yes, I believe I could get over the past if he changed his behaviour, even if he did not apologize or admit to any wrongdoing. In those realms where he has changed his approach the change is to present it sort of as a gift of reassurance, rather than as a confession. And that is just fine. In fact, I said exactly that to the counsellor when she told my husband that he needed to apologize and make amends: that I did not need either, but only for things to change. Secondly, the other shoe DID drop. We have had some VERY bad times. I left for my holiday on a Sunday, and the Saturday before we had a rather minor spat. At least, it seemed minor to me. Unfortunately, my husband brooded on it all day and then at the end of the day we went out to do an errand together and that outing ended with him screaming at me in the car that I TORTURED him, that for all he knew I was planning to leave him, that he couldn't take me torturing him anymore, that I was pathetic for staying with him when I felt so insecure and that he insisted I leave him. Repeatedly he told me to leave. It was truly bizarre and horrifying. I sat almost silent, except for the snivelling and agreed to end the relationship, of course. Suddenly he started to say that he only meant I should leave if I didn't feel secure and that I was twisting his words to say otherwise. What I wouldn't give for a tape recorder! I am certain he has no recollection of what he says in these rages or whatever they are. I can't describe how wildly angry he seems or how irrational. Anyway, I went away on holidays with my kids. My husband and I had some sort of a "make up" session before I did and parted on apparently good terms. While I was gone, we spoke and he was very affectionate and reassuring. He worked and golfed and cleaned house. I had a nice time with my kids, except for a few quiet moments when I found myself dwelling on the insanity of my marriage. I returned home and we had one quiet day. Then the insanity hit again. It started off with what seemed to be an innocent conversation on Saturday morning. He said he was going golfing and asked if I wanted to come. I had promised to take my daughter out so I said no, but suggested he go soon and then we would still have time for a date later. (The "date" concept is one urged by our counsellor, like yours). Well, within a couple of hours, he had brooded over this conversation so that was, in his mind, a matter of me complaining endlessly, pressuring him about everything and being a control freak. Again he was raging, this time on the telephone at me. He said he did not understand why he, a reasonable person, could not have a decent relationship with another human being. At the same time, he insisted that it was my complaining and control tendencies that caused all the trouble in our marriage and that if I would just stop everything would be fine. By the end of the day I was like a defeated dog again, asking myself if I really caused all of this trouble, if I had done something to deserve this, what was wrong with me, etc. I am working hard to get myself out of that mindset, but it is like a hole I tend to slide into when he is raging at me and calling me names. Now, he has a lot of stress at work and has recently been rejected by his youngest who refuses to live with us half time. So, I know my husband is under a lot of stress. But still --- this is what happened before: He was under stress from sad or bad things in his life and took all of his anger and frustration out on me and I LET HIM. Now it is happening again. He doesn't see it this way, but it seems crystal clear to me. How could asking him to play golf earlier in the day so we could spend the evening together be such an evil thing? I just can't conceive of it as so bad. I think this tiny incident is twisted in his mind and focussed upon until it become some ordeal that entitles him to lash out. So, I congratulate myself for smiling another day when I have little to smile about and for getting work and housework and kid stuff done and pat myself on the back for being tough enough to take this sort of **** and not run screaming. And I thank all gods for the fact my kids witnessed NONE of it. But at the same time, I know it is ridiculous. I wish that my husband would get to the moment your husband reached, luvstarved, when he could own his rage and quit using me as his whipping post. We see the counsellor Wednesday. I may call the counsellor tomorrow and tell her that we have had two terrible incidents and that I feel there is some worse crisis looming. I know he thinks about suicide. And I know that at some moments he blames me for all bad things in his life. (Including the rejection by his son - such an ironic thing! In truth, I know that having me around comforts the boy. He has frightened his son by getting angry at me - he knows this, but blames me for making him angry, of course. His son and I have no troubles getting along at all.) Anyway - if you have made it this far luvstarved - your story is heartening to me, even though a "happy ending" seems like a fainter and fainter hope for me. I am still happy for you! I am glad that you and your husband are reconnecting and that you have the moral courage to work on your own issues. I know that I become more jealous as my relationship seems more unstable, so of course there is an interaction. Your sense that your husband is working with you on the marriage will help you in your fight with those internal demons, I am certain. As for your sex life, well, I am sure that it does not help your husband to feel he is disappointing you and so your sense that you need to tread carefully is undoubtedly a very wise approach. Women are raised with the notion that if we are willing we will have all those horny men fall at our feet and so it is hard to not feel rejected when our husbands are not the stereotype. I guess we need to bear in mind that the perpetually sex hungry man is as much an invention of the media as so many other supposed archetypes. I agree that getting older is an issue. I feel myself getting angry at times that I might soon be alone and less desirable than I was. I resent that I spent my lovely youth on one pointless relationship and then the past 10 years of my supposed prime on another that seems doomed. And geriatric sex does sound great to me! I recall very well the story my sister related about my 80plus granny asking the doctor about when it was safe to resume "marital relations" after her hip surgery. It warmed my heart! Don't give up that dream....
Author luvstarved Posted August 28, 2007 Author Posted August 28, 2007 Hi Sheba, Sorry it sounds like he is having a major relapse on you, perhaps it would have been a good time, when he asked why he can't have a decent relationship with another human being, to say YES, PONDER that! Do some soul searching and think about what YOU could do better. You don't have to describe the wild nutties, I've seen dozens of them from my H. He is much better about it but he has relapses too. All in all I have thought things are improving and they are in terms of getting along better but the general sex and intimacy issues we are not making any headway with. I was trying to let some time pass but in another post I revealed that I learned that the rest of his family sees the same bad in him that I do and I found that discouraging as they said he has always been the way he is. Grrrrrr. Your H sounds very insecure and too insecure to be pointing to your insecurities!! We all have them, but it is rarely a mine are worse than yours deal, just mine are different from yours... My H also takes things I say the wrong way and when there isn't anything in the content he can point to, he heads straight for the delivery...well you said it in a sarcastic way, etc. SOOOO frustrating. When this happens, does your H allow that he took it the wrong way or does he insist that he knows what you were thinking and it was mean and you can't talk him out of believing so? Classic behavior in my H. Sheba, I think we are dealing with two scared bunnies who are too fearful and insecure to trust in us and use anger as some sort of twisted defense. I have been feeling good because we had been getting along so well, but in retrospect I realize it was because we went on and planned several outings of things he wanted to do and he was all upbeat about them and getting me to plan them, etc, Once all the plans were in place, he went back t his books and tv and generally ignoring me. Right now I am avoiding having sex with him because of all the crap surrounding it. Sick of it being all about him. The whole family revelation thing is weighing on me. I talked to his sis for an hour and she told me a LOT about what other family members think of our situation and it wasn't good! He was engaged to someone else about a year before he met me. I knew this part, but all he had told me was that "she had emotional issues". His sis told me that she got fed up (by what exactly I don't know) and eventually dumped him saying that she never wanted anything to do with him again. Anyway it is wearing to go through these emotional ups and downs. I literally go from one day to the next feeling very optimistic and then very pessimistic again. This reality has made me think that I am a major contributor but I wonder if I have days in which denial comes easier. But, I don't want to divorce. I want change. But cripes, he is pushing 50 and mom is still around to confirm that he is always right, etc so I don't know how that can happen. The breakthrough with the anger was good...we need a similar breakthrough on intimacy but feeling like I want to throwup over his behavior is probably not a positive sign there, either. And especially I don't k now how to get past these growing negative feelings about his mom. Especially watching the two of them work against me to raise our 8 year old to be just like him...she is started t act spoiled, bratty and controlling and every time I try to correct this, the two of them (mom and son) work against me..."oh she's just tired" "ok we'll do things your way, sweetie" :You're the greatest kid on earth", "you're the boss" on and on. She is starting to throw hissy fits whenever she does not get her way. And the result of that is them giving in. I have demonstrated multiple times that, leaving her alone to "get over it", she goes to her room for maybe ten minutes and then comes out pretending nothing happened. But they still don't get it. His emotional response to her runs from adoration and rapture and straight to anger when she does not do what h wants... Dang me, I will still not give up until I am certain there is no other hope. But conversations like I had today inch me closer to that conclusion.
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