How do I live with the guilt?

[ookla_2]

I think I posted this in the wrong thread before, so here goes...

 

I don't want to be with my H anymore. I tried to tell him this a year ago, he left for three days and came back a changed man. He is now the husband that everyone should want, so why don't I? I feel like I should have stuck to my guns last year, and we would be so much further along in the process by now, but I caved. I want to be in love with him, I'm just not. And he seems more in love with me than he ever was, before I told him that I was not in love with him. Now I just deny that there are any problems, put on a happy face and smile for the world, trying to keep everyone happy. I'm not myself anymore and I miss myself. I find myself lying about stupid little things (such as a silly little blog I used to contribute to), because I don't want to have to give them up simply because he doesn't like them. We have been together for 16 years, and have two children. Much like most people on here, I don't want to make anyone else unhappy, but I sacrifice my own happiness to try to maintain theirs. I'm living a lie. We are all living a lie. But I can't seem to make myself do this to him because he hasn't done anything wrong. I even tried counseling for a while, but that made him nervous, so I stopped. I never used to be so cowering and weak, and I hate what I have become. I am in a major depression that is scaring me to death...because I have given up all hope of ever being happy. I know that is just me being dramatic, and things have to change somehow, I just can't see anything changing anytime soon if I don't do it myself and I lack the courage to make a change. I'm so protective of his feelings, and don't want to hurt him, and last time it happened he made it seem like he would be completely lost without me, and have nothing to live for. That scared me, and I vowed to never hurt him like that again. How can I either: A - make myself feel for him like I should, or B - tell him that there's better out there for him, and make him see that? I'm so low, lower than I have ever been, and I don't know where to turn. Sorry for being such a downer, but anyone who can talk sense into me would be greatly appreciated.

[Mz. Pixie]

Would you feeling dissatisfied in your marriage have anything to do with perhaps another man- a friend or otherwise that's giving you attention or that you're talking too??

 

Give us a little more information about how this started and why?

[ookla_2]

Originally, due to the problems we were having in our marriage, yes, I became too close with a male friend. He was having problems as well, and we leaned on each other too much (phone calls, emails, etc). My husband found out, and that ended. He forgave me, after some time. This of course adds to my guilt feelings, because he was so much more understanding and forgiving than I probably would have been. I guess my question is, if I don't feel passionate about my husband, and I'm not really sure I ever have, CAN I? Can I fix it and feel about him the way he deserves to have someone feel about him? Or do I just continue pretending for everyone else's sake? I've been really trying for over a year now...and I can't shake this feeling.

[EmotionallyYours]

I feel the EXACT same way. How old are your children? You sound like you are in the same boat as me... we really need to talk! Of course I am just looking for someone to agree with me and say... "Yes... leave him it is the right thing to do" because that is what I WANT to hear. However, I know that this is NOT the right thing to do for my kids. I feel SO selfish, but I'm living a complete lie and hate every minute of it. Like you... I just can't stand the guilt. My husband is a very good man. Sometimes I behave badly just to drive him away so he will WANT to leave me.

 

I did fix it for a while... but this feeling ALWAYS seems to come back. Am I being strong for not leaving???? Or am I weak for not being honest?

[Mz. Pixie]

You both need counseling and a way to rebuild your marriage.

 

It is possible to fall in love again with your spouse.

 

Google marriagebuilders.

[Kasan]

Ladies, gotta tell you, your posts are hard to read (ie empathize with). Many of the posters at this site would give anything to have what you have. Good husbands and healthy children.

 

Look, you know (as you have been together for sixteen years) that marriage can be "boring." You settle into a pattern of work, bills, molding the kiddos into responsible human beings and sometimes there's not much leftover for the adults in the relationship. You are so fortunate that you are not dealing with some of the crap in your marriage that other posters on this site are.

 

You say that you are "protective of your husband" which leads me to believe you still have feelings for him. As someone who has been married for a very long time (and married very young) I can say I have been where you are. (minus the EA)

 

As I look back on my marriage I can see how the love I have for my husband has changed through the years. Yes, the flowers, and trips were great, but one of the turning points in my marriage was the time we had to go to a closing, I was so sick--my hair even hurt. I took a bucket with me in the car in case I was sick. My “eureka” moment came when my husband put my socks on me.

 

To me that signified what love really is and caused me to have a really hard look at what I thought marriage was…. and it changed how I looked at him.

 

How do you become happy and appreciate your marriage? You make a conscious decision to do so! Instead of worrying about next week, month, or year, you worry about today. You start appreciating the good things that you have in your life on a daily basis …the rest will follow.

[ookla_2]

I went to marriagebuilders.com, but I didn't really care for what I read...I tried to go to counseling for awhile, but he can't deal with me telling someone else our problems, and would grill me every time I came back from a session - wanting to know what I talked about, what I was thinking, everything. It just got to be too much of a hassle, so I quit going. That's how we work. I give up things that I enjoy or that are helpful so we don't have to argue about them. I have given up friendships, missed out on high school reunions, and basically just kind of isolated myself, because he is more comfortable with me that way. I, on the other hand, am miserable with myself that way. I convinced myself last year that I had to stay with him, or my children would hate me. I finally don't believe that anymore, but since he doesn't give me a "good reason" to leave, I just continue to stay.

 

I don't feel passion for him - like I said, I don't think I ever really did - and I absolutely dread any physical contact....but I do it anyway, just for him, because he's a good guy. Ugh - how did I get here?

[ookla_2]

Thanks, Kasan!

Your advice is great - and I know my husband would put my socks on for me too..

He really is a great guy, and I am going to continue to try, I just don't want to be depriving him of something wonderful, if I am not capable of it.

But I know you are right, and I do take your words to heart.

Thank you.

[Kasan]

ookla--I would suggest that you stand your ground about pursuing your interests. It is not his job to make you happy--it is your job!

 

Sounds like he has a little insecurity or trust issues going on. What about counseling for both of you? But....if the IC was working for you, I would have kept it up, even if he didn't like it.

[EmotionallyYours]

I have a question to pose? What causes the EAs? Kasan states that she has had no EAs to deal with. EAs make things SO MUCH harder.

 

I always seem to want to dissolve the marriage (to varying degrees) because I just want to do my own thing my own way simply put. I am terrible at compromising and admit it. I am much better than I was maybe 10 years ago... but I have to work really hard on it every day. We disagree a LOT about raising the kids. This is the biggest issue. It's a shame because I want more kids really, but not with him. He is becoming more and more conservative and unbending the older they get. I could NOT go through this with him again. Oop... going off subject... Back to the EA.

 

The only time that my marriage becomes almost unbearable is when an EA is introduced into the picture. I am in my second EA in 10 years. The first one lasted maybe two years and was not nearly as intense. This is when I started wanting out of my marriage. Even after the EA was over, I still wanted out but did not feel as desperate about doing it immediately. Why did I feel like this about another man? The last time I was depressed and spent way too much time at work. Plus my husband was definitely not in one of his finer periods of life. So, I understand that one to a degree.

 

This one is a complete mystery? I can say with 100% honesty that I was not looking for THIS EA to happen. Our marriage if anything seemed to be better than usual. For some reason I started becoming interested in an absolutely ridiculous man who initially was mildly repulsive to me. He was like a train wreck that I couldn't look away from. After we were forced together under unusual circumstances (long story... very innocent though... that I won't go into) we just grew very close during times when we had legitimate reasons to be together.

 

After we had no reason to see each other we remained friends via email. It wasn't enough though. Now I do meet him (usually with other people so I won't be tempted into a PA) and have joined an activity where we will see each other regularly. Everything we do together now are normal things friends would do, but we sneak around to do them. We both pretend that we are just friends, but people who are "just friends" don't sneak around do they? Anyway... it is beyond that point now. I think about him more than I want to admit to, my stomach is in knots and my heart actually aches to see him.

 

If I love my husband, how does this happen? Why now when I was almost starting to feel a little bit more content? Any input would be greatly appreciated. It is so hard to think straight when I have such strong feelings right now.

[Ladyjane14]

At about the age of 35, give or take a few years... I think women really do reach a bit of a mini-mid-life-crisis. We get to a stage in life where we realize that we're as grown-up as we're ever gonna be. We've arrived. This is it. This is what our lives have ended up to be. Our girlhood dreams have faded away to mere memories, and we feel like we don't have any control over the course of our future. Because we're always wearing somebody else's "hat"... the wife hat, the mommy hat, daughter, sister, coworker, etc. etc., we never seem to have the time or resources to put on our individuality hat, to discover new dreams and to strive toward them.

 

What's worse, at this stage of our lives... our tolerance for bullsh*t hits an all time low.

 

Been there done that.

 

What I discovered though is that it's all a bit of an illusion. And just like any other life-stage, it passes. We ARE in control of our lives, our choices, and above all... our mindset. We've been "in control" all along. We just don't always realize it.

 

Each of us has our own inner hypnosis. During this very depressing life-stage, mine was something to the effect of... "OMG, my husband is such a controlling a*hole. Why-oh-why did I ever marry him?"

And during that time, I was in the habit of FEEDING that negative mindset, reinforcing daily my own "hypnosis".

 

Here's a little story for you that Moose used to print for us:

The Story of Two Wolves

 

An Older Cherokee man is teaching his Grandson about life. "A fight is going on inside me," he says to the boy. "it is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves".

 

One is Evil. He is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, selfishness, arrogance, self pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego.

 

The other is good. He is LOVE, joy, peace, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.

 

"This same fight is going on inside you and inside every other person". The Grandson thinks about this for a minute and then asks his Grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

 

The old Cherokee replies, "the one you feed”.

 

It wasn't until later on and after I almost lost my marriage, that I realized I'd been "feeding" the wrong wolf.

 

These days, my NEW inner mantra is more like... "I love my husband. I love him actively. I prioritize his needs at the same level as my own". And I notice all the little things he does for me, similar to Kasan's story about the socks. When you're feeding the right wolf, it's easier to see what's really important to you because you're no longer focused on just your SELF.

 

Now, that doesn't mean that you roll yourself out as a doormat and let a man walk all over you. But, there's a vast amount of real estate between what a 'good man' deserves from his partner, and what a 'bad man' deserves. The bad one of course, deserving to be shown the nearest route to the door, but a good one is deserving of consideration, occasional forgiveness, and lots of TLC.

 

And he also deserves our protection in emotional terms. We do that, by protecting our "love supply" for him. IOW, we don't allow him to steam-roll us taking huge deposits from our love bank without making deposits. We don't allow him to HURT us, which he can do inadvertently because his emotional response to stimuli is so dissimilar to ours. And... we DON'T allow him to make all our choices for us or rob us of our individuality. Because if we do, he'll just end up under the burden of blame and BREAK THE BANK.

 

So, we face the conflict when something's really important to us. We work it out. We hash it out. And we keep doing that until both husband and wife are comfortable with the arrived upon compromise.

 

You know, there are THREE entities in marriage. Not just the two individuals, but also 'the couple entity', all existing on the same plane, and all requiring nurture. So, you nurture your husband, you nurture the plurality of "the couple entity", and.... you nurture yourself. And when you do, you begin to realize that YOU were responsible for your own happiness in so many different ways all along. Of course, it's incumbent upon your husband to nurture you in a healthy way same as it is for you to nurture him... but ultimately who is it who determines what you NEED from him? Who's responsibility is it to make those needs known? Who's responsibility is it to "feed your wolf" so that her inner mantra is a positive in your life and in your family, as well as supportive to your individual goals?

 

I have to tell you that once I came to the realization that I was letting MYSELF down, and thereby building resentments against my husband for crap that really wasn't his fault... I felt pretty bad.

 

Sure, men can do enough all on their own to cause a certain amount of "built-up" resentment.

But really, when I took a very honest look at our relationship, the big-ticket items had pretty much been within my control all along. It wasn't so much that my husband had stood between me and my girlhood dreams, it was that I wasn't willing to fight for them, finding it easier to blame somebody else for my failings.

 

A good man might not always understand WHY something is important to you. But if you hash it out with him despite whatever conflict it involves... he'll usually find a way.

 

Still... there are significant amounts of resentment in a long-standing marriage, even once you've "claimed" your own baggage.

 

This is where forgiveness comes into play. It's necessary to mutually forgive one another for mistakes made throughout the years. Marriages don't come with instruction manuals, and people are fallible. We mess up and hurt each other's feelings. It's just a given.

 

The only way to completely 'clear the slate' is to MUTUALLY forgive one another. It's a surprisingly easy thing to do actually.

The tricky part... is staying with it. And the only way to do that is to remind yourself on a daily basis and for as long as it takes... that you've CHOSEN to forgive, to leave behind the sins of the past. Sometimes, you have to remind your partner too when various "you always" or "you never" type statements come up in discussion. But, if you stick with your "forgiveness choice" and your partner sticks with his... all those former resentments can disappear.

 

And THIS is what allows the love to flow again. Picture all those years and years of resentments like logs in a dam. They block the flow of love. Once you've addressed the resentments and you've managed to get them out of your way... the love can start trickling in. If you utilize sympathy for your partner, (one of the few emotions which can negotiate it's way through resentment)... you increase the flow.

 

Sympathy is a great tool. And Empathy, the ability to "walk a mile in the other guy's shoes" can allow you another view of yourself, as you see YOU through someone else's eyes. This is great data when it comes to making choices which promote all three marriage entities.

 

Love can and does "come back"... but you have to WANT it to.

And it's important to recognize that it's NOT the Infatuation emotion you might remember from your youth. "Infatuation" is exciting of course. It's both emotional and physiological. But... it ALWAYS fades. Mature love does not. Mature love actually strengthens over time. And while it lacks the 'flash' of heart-pounding, quaking in the knees "crush" feelings... when done right, it outmatches anything "infatuation" has to offer in terms of quality and comfort.

:bunny:

[bish]

ookla....I get the feeling you aren't telling us everything. Something tells me there is someone else you are seeing or want to see that keeps you from rekindling the fire between you and your husband.

 

Because unless he is an abusive prick or something, I can't see you wanting to throw it away unless you had someone on the sidelines to run to when its done.

[ookla_2]

I can completely understand you thinking that, but truly there is no one waiting on the sidelines - I'm not looking to run to anyone else. True, I had an EA that lasted roughly six months. It's been over for more than a year. Having gone through that, and living with the guilt from it, which is so much more overwhelming than I could ever have imagined, I don't believe I could live with myself if the reason I wanted out was because of another man. I would doom any relationship that started that way, simply because I seem to be incapable of forgiving myself.

 

I have good days, days when I tell myself "he IS the man for me, I AM happy where I am", and then I have the bad days. The days when I don't know who I am anymore, and wonder why I have given up so much control of my life. I wasn't raised this way...I was raised to look out for myself, take care of myself, because others weren't going to do it for me. And now, I feel like I just let my life happen - I don't take control of anything.

 

Emotionally, I totally get where you are coming from. I wish I had wise words of advice/comfort for you, but all I have is this: you are not alone. I was convinced that when people found out about my EA (or what I called my "inappropriate friendship"), they would be appalled. I really felt like I was this pariah, like no one had ever done anything as terrible as I had. I had a hard time holding my head up for a while, once H found out about it. What I found was that the more open I was with people whom I trusted, the more "normal" I felt, because I was not alone. I was amazed that these women, who are all good, caring, wonderful women, have at some point or another been through a similar situation. And I realized that, if they are still good, caring, wonderful women, then maybe, just maybe, I was too. That everything positive I've ever tried to do isn't automatically negated by a poor decision I made.

 

And yes, I know, I totally need to get back to counseling. If that last paragraph didn't make me sound like a person screaming out for therapy, I just don't know what would.

[Kasan]

Excellent post LJ! Ookla, LJ has just given you the steps to find your way back if you want to.

 

I agree with LJ--I was 38, married 18 years and my oldest was headed off to college--when I felt very much like throwing in the towel for all the reasons that LJ listed. I thought my life just plain sucked!

 

I threw myself into my career, got some new interests, and came out of the funk that "I had created."

 

Emotionally Yours--for me any kind of "affair" would be a "deal breaker". It's just something I wouldn't tolerate nor would I expect my husband to--just like any kind of abuse. Consider me old fashioned I guess.

 

So, I can only say that I am glad that I worked it out, as the kids are gone and life is pretty darn good. That doesn't meant that I still don't get royally ticked off at him at times--but for me the good out weighs the bad--and when we fight, we get it all out. We don't dredge up past arguments nor do we call each other names.

[sumdude]

LadyJane once again you floor me with your posts. This describes my stbx and how she handled everything almost to a T. Our relationship wasn't perfect, we were going through hard times. I was in a bad space for a while. Yet overall in the balance I simply can't see it as all that awful. It was just what she focused on and amplified over and over in her mind. I was doing the same thing too.

 

I hadn't gotten to the point where A) I knew what to do or B) I wanted to end the relationship. Yet she did..

 

To this day she tells me how I kept her from what she loved to be doing. One example is horseback riding. All I know is that I was concerned for her safety since she had broken her back before. Never did I say "No you can't" but she percieved it that way and held herself back from doing it. A perfect example of her not fighting for what she wanted. If she had stood firm on it I wouldn't have stopped her... just been worried.

 

It's about perceptions so often. Making assumptions about what you spouse thinks or how they'll react to something. If there is something that important to yourself you have to fight for it. Now I don't mean FIGHT but be firm and stand your ground. If your spouse's first reaction is negative be patient and keep trying. Also have reasonable expections of others.

[EmotionallyYours]

I threw myself into my career, got some new interests, and came out of the funk that "I had created."

 

Emotionally Yours--for me any kind of "affair" would be a "deal breaker". It's just something I wouldn't tolerate nor would I expect my husband to--just like any kind of abuse. Consider me old fashioned I guess.

 

Kasan - You would divorce your husband then if you found he was having an EA or as ookla put it a relationship with an "inappropriate friend"? I'm just curious. Or would it have had to gone to the physical for you to leave him? I think my husband would be like you in his views is why I ask

 

 

**I like that by the way ookla..."Inappropriate Friend"...lol... It doesn't sound as bad. I think I'd better keep calling it an EA so that is has more "weight" in my mind. The "AFFAIR" part drives it home and keeps me from pretending I'm not doing anything wrong.**

[ookla_2]

You're right - I totally agree that EA is a more on-target description. Before I saw my old counselor and started looking around online, I didn't really know what to call it. Because there was nothing physical, it didn't occur to me to think of it as an affair. But you are right, that's exactly what it was.

[EmotionallyYours]

 

Love can and does "come back"... but you have to WANT it to.

 

:bunny:

 

LJ... Thanks so much for your post. I meant to say so earlier. You have put into words what I go through on "good" days. That I need to try harder and quit focusing on the bad. The problem is on bad days I feel like I don't want Love to come back.

 

So, I'll leave it at this:

 

I WANT to want Love to come back.

 

I'm scurrying off to do some positive thinking so I can move up to actually wanting it. Thanks!!

[EmotionallyYours]

You're right - I totally agree that EA is a more on-target description. Before I saw my old counselor and started looking around online, I didn't really know what to call it. Because there was nothing physical, it didn't occur to me to think of it as an affair. But you are right, that's exactly what it was.

 

I didn't think of it like an affair either until I went online for advice and it slapped me in the face. The other thing I couldn't get a handle on is my obsession with this guy I have now too? This is way stronger than anything I've ever felt before including High School crushes etc... I certainly never felt this way about my husband. I came across the term "Limerence". Just google it. It really does describe how I feel perfectly. I almost fell on the floor because it sounded like they were talking about me when describing someone in "limerence".

 

Some describe it as involuntary... but that just may be BS made up so we can justify inappropriate behavior/feelings. What do you think?

[Kasan]

Emotionally yours--

 

I see this situation as a "core values" issue. You can soldier (probably not a great word to use) on through pretty much anything if you and your spouse or significant other have similar core beliefs (value system).

 

I look at it from this point of view. I shared 32 years of my life with this man. I have given him the best that I have had to give, supported him through the good and the bad, put up with his psycho relatives, and his work schedule. If this wasn't good enough for him, why would I settle for second best?

 

On the other hand, why would I expect him to settle? I know that he gave me his best....etc.

 

We are very fortunate and lucky that our core beliefs on the "major" issues are so similar. We are also very fortunate that "life" didn't cause our relationship to fracture, that we were and still are able to stand together.

 

Really good men and women are hard to find as it has been posted numerous times on these boards. It would be a shame to let one of the "good ones" get away.

[EmotionallyYours]

I see this situation as a "core values" issue. You can soldier (probably not a great word to use) on through pretty much anything if you and your spouse or significant other have similar core beliefs (value system).

 

I don't think I know if that is a yes or no Kasan...lol...? Keeping in mind that I have not slept with the man here are my choices (assuming I am going the "let's make it work route")

 

If I pour my heart out and admit everything to my husband, will I already be condemned? To me... this is probably the honest thing to do... but will it break up my marriage?

 

OR

 

Do I just stop the EA, concentrate on my marriage and conceal this dalliance for the rest of my life? Marriage no longer in jeopardy.. but isn't that being dishonest?

 

 

By the way, our core values may not line up just right. He really is WAY on the social conservative side of the spectrum and has become MUCH more so over the years. I have always been more on the liberal side.

 

Would I forgive him for cheating? Yes. Would he cheat? No.

 

Would he forgive me for cheating? I don't know. Would I cheat? Emotionally - yes (you already know that). Physically - probably not. I have never even kissed another man since I was 18. It seems awfully overwhelming to tell you the truth. It just seems like too much of a betrayal. I'd have to be at least separated if not divorced I think. If I am going "all the way" over to the dark side, I need to give him a heads up I think. I certainly would owe him that.

[Ladyjane14]

Really good men and women are hard to find as it has been posted numerous times on these boards. It would be a shame to let one of the "good ones" get away.

 

That's so true. And even "the good ones" come with their own set of problems. You can trade one in, but you just end up with a different set of defects. We're, none of us, perfect.

 

It's impossible to assess a person in any kind of accurate way while you're under the influence of Infatuation. 'Cause, hey... you just like EVERYTHING when you're in that 'addicted-to-love' stage.

 

But infatuation is only a seed. Love grows or withers from there with no guarantee of the outcome. When you get involved in an affair, be it emotional or physical... you're "under-the-influence" of someone else, unable to see past the "flash" of your own emotional response. And you can end up all too easily throwing away a terrific and PROVEN partner for nothing more than a 'maybe', one who will end up bringing his own set of problems into your life.

 

You can't find your "want to" while you're distracted by an infatuation with someone else. Infatuation is a BIG ANIMAL, bigger than people give it credit for being. And it's not all cute and cuddly like it looks either. It's got fangs and claws... and the potential to destroy all you care about.

[notspiritual]

For some reason I started becoming interested in an absolutely ridiculous man who initially was mildly repulsive to me. This is way stronger than anything I've ever felt before including High School crushes etc...

 

EmotionallyYours, sorry to go a little off topic but can you explain me how this mildly repulsive man has been able to seduce you? How did he move from mild repulsion to total attraction? What did he say/do?

[Kasan]

Emotionally yours--

 

What are your intentions? If you want to continue your marriage than you break off your EA immediately.

 

Should you tell your husband? What purpose would it serve but only hurt him--unless you are planning on leaving your marriage.

 

We all make mistakes and have lapses of good judgment, so you need to "forgive" yourself if your intention is to continue your marriage. I find it ironic that you could forgive him if he had an affair but not yourself.

 

Bye the way, if my husband was having an "affair" it would be over for me in a blink of an eye.

[EmotionallyYours]

EmotionallyYours, sorry to go a little off topic but can you explain me how this mildly repulsive man has been able to seduce you? How did he move from mild repulsion to total attraction? What did he say/do?

 

LOL... looking for tips?

 

Let's just say he is larger than life in many respects and many of his obnoxious qualities just become endearing? Actually... sometimes he still does repulse me... It is very weird. He is embarrassing most of the time... A waitress thought I was his wife early on when we first met and I was mortified. He is kind of a Jack Black meets Drew Carey kind of guy... and I'm just a typical "nice mom" type (until you get to know me...lol). I don't know?? I really don't think he set out to seduce me and I really don't think I set out to BE seduced. I know there is a lot of attraction between us and we both seem to be equally shocked by it and in denial to a degree. I think the weirdness of it only fuels the fire for both of us.

 

I will quench the fire soon though... I'm just working up to it with common sense infusions from LJ and Kasan. Whether or not I make it work with my husband (I wanted to end marriage before him), this guy would truly be a handful. I will miss him though, truly.