Do these issues sound familiar to anyone?

[yergawd]

My SO's son (age 11) exhibits:

- Extreme Destructiveness

- Lack of concern for other's property

- Lack of concern for other's privacy

- Lack of concern for other in general

- Crying at the drop of a hat

- Bed wetting

- Compulsive Lying (reflexive, about everything, stands firm by lies even when he has been exposed as lying)

 

- Innapropriate sexual contact with sister, mother, any female in general

- Defiance disorder (thrives off of and deeply enjoys arguing) will do pointless things because he knows it will cause an argument

 

- inability to focus

- Staring intently at people

- highly manipulitive

- juvinile babbling

- starved for attention but can never get enough. Hrs (litterally) of positive reinforcement second it stops acts out

 

He's been on every drug known to man, been to therapists. no help. If all or some of these strike a chord with anyone please let me know what you did in your experience

[nittygritty]

Have his parents had any parenting classes or therapy?

[love necessity]

It sounds like it could be linked to sexual abuse?? But you need to look into that. I know wetting the bed has a lot to do with that. One of my cousins was sexually molested as a child, and she peed in the bed until she was like 13 or 14...read about it, you may find what you're looking for. I'm so sorry to hear this, it's sad.=(

[tinktronik]

Bed wetting at 11 is considered a very serious sign. I would see a therapist.

[nittygritty]

It does fit the profile of a kid that has been or is being severely abused. He sounds very angry about it. How are the parents raising this child?

[yergawd]

NittyGritty-They've tried everything, right now the father is looking at a program at the Children's Hospital with specialists

 

LoveNecessity- I agree completely, as did my SO, for awhile. But she hasn't found any kind of evidence and he hasn't said anything to any of his counselors.

 

I work with at risk youth and have my degree in psych, but I am out of ideas, and was hoping someone had similair experiences that could shed some light. We've tried behavioral approaches, psychopharmacological nothing seems to get through. That's the other thing time outs and groundings don't get through to him. 20 mins later he can't even remember why he is being punished. One counselor did say typical punishment is not as effective because he doesn't learn from it unless he gets the punishment repeatedly. I've been talking to him for long stretches and making him repeat back to me what I had said. He seems to understand the words but not really their meaning

[yergawd]

It does fit the profile of a kid that has been or is being severely abused. He sounds very angry about it. How are the parents raising this child?

 

 

The father took regular punishment is not as effective to mean do no punishment because it does no good. He also babies him and his sister. Constant coddling, hugs. He has no backbone as all.

 

His mother is very strict and consistant. He is not to touch her or his sister at all. There is no warnings it's one strike and he goes up to his room. He spends a lot of time being punished sometimes from breakfast to bed. She will explode at him "Dammit ---- use your head for once" "what the hell is the matter with you?" etc... Not verbal abuse, but by the end of the day she's so frustrated and he seems so oblivious to everything she is desparate to get through to him

[love necessity]

poor kid..that's so terrible:(....

 

Does he watch a lot of violent movies??

 

My cousin who peed the bed was also afraid of the dark, is he afraid of the dark?

[nittygritty]

The father took regular punishment is not as effective to mean do no punishment because it does no good. He also babies him and his sister. Constant coddling, hugs. He has no backbone as all.

 

His mother is very strict and consistant. He is not to touch her or his sister at all. There is no warnings it's one strike and he goes up to his room. He spends a lot of time being punished sometimes from breakfast to bed. She will explode at him "Dammit ---- use your head for once" "what the hell is the matter with you?" etc... Not verbal abuse, but by the end of the day she's so frustrated and he seems so oblivious to everything she is desparate to get through to him

 

 

Mom sounds emotionally abusive. It sounds like she ignores the child and then explodes when he forces her to give him attention. She may have taught him that he is bad because that is the only time she gives him attention.

 

All of this acting out is getting him lots of attention. Kids will take what ever kind of attention they can get even if it means they have to be bad to get it. Is this kid ever getting rewarded for doing anything right? Or has he given up?

 

Sounds like the kid could use some positive things in his life. Who would be hugging this kid if Dad isn't? Could Dad possibly do more positive things and spend more time with the boy? The boy may do better living full time with Dad and visiting Mom, it is worth trying anyway.

 

You can't do therapy on a family member. The boy also may resent you. He might also be angry about not having all of his family living together and see you as the person that is preventing that from ever happening.

 

Mom and Dad need to be in counseling or parenting classes. They need to get on the same page about how to do a better job raising their child. This boys needs are not being met and there are many signs that this boy is being abused. The boy may not tell anyone out of fear so it is up to his parents to find out. If that means investigating every aspect of this boy's life so beit but they need to step up and do their jobs as parents. A therapist can't raise their kid for them.

[yergawd]

NG- As far as being emotionally abusive, at times it does cross the line with some of her comments. But he is told to clean up the basement play area and to vaccum once he picks up his toys. So he grabs the vaccum and THROWS it downstairs breaking it. This is after he spent most of the day being punished for: Touching sister (now only grabbing backside or poking chest ), throwing friend's (now not so much) bike into creek, and picking fights with my son and his sister all day. after all that he breaks the vaccum and she blows up with "Dammit ---- what the hell are you doing!" She constantly reinforces him when he's being good. But how is she to hug him when he starts rubbing her butt when she does?

As far as living with the dad there's lots of positive reinforcement and hugs all day and plenty of do whatever you want because you have issues and nothing I can do or say can change that. I still agree somewhere in his past there was sexual abuse of some kind. But there are so many atypical non-abuse issues I wonder if that's all there is or are there more issues or what.

[nittygritty]

NG- As far as being emotionally abusive, at times it does cross the line with some of her comments. But he is told to clean up the basement play area and to vaccum once he picks up his toys. So he grabs the vaccum and THROWS it downstairs breaking it. This is after he spent most of the day being punished for: Touching sister (now only grabbing backside or poking chest ), throwing friend's (now not so much) bike into creek, and picking fights with my son and his sister all day. after all that he breaks the vaccum and she blows up with "Dammit ---- what the hell are you doing!" She constantly reinforces him when he's being good. But how is she to hug him when he starts rubbing her butt when she does?

As far as living with the dad there's lots of positive reinforcement and hugs all day and plenty of do whatever you want because you have issues and nothing I can do or say can change that. I still agree somewhere in his past there was sexual abuse of some kind. But there are so many atypical non-abuse issues I wonder if that's all there is or are there more issues or what.

 

He sounds very angry. Do you and your son live with his Dad?

 

Does he get to do special activities that just involve him and his Dad? Like going to games, arcades, movies, etc.? Does his Dad involve him in any sports?

[yergawd]

He sounds very angry. Do you and your son live with his Dad?

 

Does he get to do special activities that just involve him and his Dad? Like going to games, arcades, movies, etc.? Does his Dad involve him in any sports?

 

No of course I don't live at his dad's. But him and my GF are constantly arguing he says she's too hard on him and it doesn't do any good to ever punish him because he doesn't learn. She yells at him for not diciplining him. His sister has complains to me that their dad won't do anything about him grabbing at her so she fends for herself there.

 

They've tried every sport from soccer to karate. At practices he sits on grass/floor and zones out. At Karate he sat and cried because he didn't want to jog. I am a martial artist myself and have been working with him on some basics, but that worries me considering his anger. I teach him fancier moves like on cheesy Gung Fu flicks. We take all the kids to movies regularly. But one on one with dad I'm not sure.

[nittygritty]

No of course I don't live at his dad's. But him and my GF are constantly arguing he says she's too hard on him and it doesn't do any good to ever punish him because he doesn't learn. She yells at him for not diciplining him. His sister has complains to me that their dad won't do anything about him grabbing at her so she fends for herself there.

 

They've tried every sport from soccer to karate. At practices he sits on grass/floor and zones out. At Karate he sat and cried because he didn't want to jog. I am a martial artist myself and have been working with him on some basics, but that worries me considering his anger. I teach him fancier moves like on cheesy Gung Fu flicks. We take all the kids to movies regularly. But one on one with dad I'm not sure.

 

Mom is too strict and Dad is too lenient. Until they find middle ground there isn't a whole lot that can be done.

 

The kid sounds like he may have ADD or ADHD, has that ever been a diagnosis?

 

IMO Oppositional Defiant Disorder is a result of bad parenting and abuse. It doesn't have a good prognosis, I hope for this kids sake they are wrong.

[nittygritty]

I misunderstood something. Your SO is the Mom, is that right?

Are you a man or a woman?

[yergawd]

He has been diagnosed with ODD, since roughly four yrs old. as far as ADD yes they have tried Ritalin but the side effects made ODD worse. He became really aloof, couldn't care less about punishment or being yelled at, he walked around like a zombie, and would cause more and bigger havoc in the house, as clmly as you or I would get a glass of water. His father also has mood disorders so there is the genetic part. I think the trigger was sexual abuse. Where? When? Who? I couldn't even begin to guess. There's not a lot of studies done on ODD and even less answers. I don't know where to begin. With the teens at my work I am seen as an outlet for them. at home you are right I am just another authority figure. I have made a lot of progress with him but what I can do is limited by the fact that I am also a diciplinarian. I talked to his school and made sure he will see the school counselor weekly for his outlet. I just feel like I don't know what I am doing at home

[yergawd]

I misunderstood something. Your SO is the Mom, is that right?

Are you a man or a woman?

 

Yes, I am a man. My GF is his mom.

[nittygritty]

Yes, I am a man. My GF is his mom.

 

 

Sorry, about that. It makes sense that you don't live with the Dad. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[yergawd]

He has been diagnosed with ODD, since roughly four yrs old. as far as ADD yes they have tried Ritalin but the side effects made ODD worse. He became really aloof, couldn't care less about punishment or being yelled at, he walked around like a zombie, and would cause more and bigger havoc in the house, as clmly as you or I would get a glass of water. His father also has mood disorders so there is the genetic part. I think the trigger was sexual abuse. Where? When? Who? I couldn't even begin to guess. There's not a lot of studies done on ODD and even less answers. I don't know where to begin. With the teens at my work I am seen as an outlet for them. at home you are right I am just another authority figure. I have made a lot of progress with him but what I can do is limited by the fact that I am also a diciplinarian. I talked to his school and made sure he will see the school counselor weekly for his outlet. I just feel like I don't know what I am doing at home

[nittygritty]

He has been diagnosed with ODD, since roughly four yrs old. as far as ADD yes they have tried Ritalin but the side effects made ODD worse. He became really aloof, couldn't care less about punishment or being yelled at, he walked around like a zombie, and would cause more and bigger havoc in the house, as clmly as you or I would get a glass of water. His father also has mood disorders so there is the genetic part. I think the trigger was sexual abuse. Where? When? Who? I couldn't even begin to guess. There's not a lot of studies done on ODD and even less answers. I don't know where to begin. With the teens at my work I am seen as an outlet for them. at home you are right I am just another authority figure. I have made a lot of progress with him but what I can do is limited by the fact that I am also a diciplinarian. I talked to his school and made sure he will see the school counselor weekly for his outlet. I just feel like I don't know what I am doing at home

 

You know that this isn't working at your house. Mom and son do not do well together. I think the punishments sound kind of harsh at Mom's house and Dad may not punish at all because he feels that it is too strict at Mom's house. I think it is worth a try to see if the boy does better living with Dad and visiting Mom.

 

Either way Mom and Dad need to go to a parenting management class of some kind. The boy sounds like he is bordering on having Conduct Disorder and he also probably needs different medication or treatment for the ADD.

 

How does the boy behave at school? Has he ever been in trouble for inappropriate touching with female students or teachers? What about bullying or hurting other students?

 

I'm not a Psychologist and I have never experienced these kinds of serious kid problems as a parent. I can only throw in my 2 cents worth of parenting advice. I hope others have more helpful advice.

[Touche]

I can't really contribute much. I have an 11 year old son but he doesn't display those behaviors except maybe that it's hard for him to focus sometimes.

 

What came to mind though is some kind of autistic disorder (Asperger's maybe?) Just thought I'd throw that out there. I'm sure you'd know more about that than I would.

[yergawd]

No, Autism looks much more disassociated from the world. They feel more comfortable and at peace when looking at inanimate objects. Especially lights, colors patterns. Also noted by repetitive behavior and below average IQ. Asperger's is the same but higher IQ and able to maintain a low level of human contact. He can interact, maybe not apropriately, but to the point that when he's not in a mood you'd never be able to tell he had issues. ODD is when the person LOVES conflict absolutely thrives on it. I was talking to my GF about a class a had taken in college on philosophy. He interrupts with a completely random and pointless comment then start arguing with me about I don't even really know what, then starts screaming and crying and insulting me. when he stares at people it's an intense glare out of the corner of his eye. almost looks like someone trying to size someone else up in jail. Except when he's staring at a woman then it's a straight forward-deer in the head lights CREEPY AS H3LL stare.

[Cerise]

My son is ODD and ADHD and PTSD I empathise with you!

 

The world MUST be consistant!!!!!

They MUST be ignored when behaving inapropiatly and disaplined after the fact when all is calm, several hours to the following day - EVERY time with simalar consecences but not punnished for long periods of time either.

 

ODD children feel the most comfortable when in the midst of conflict there world feels normal to them when everyone is angry.

 

The crying is normal, they have so many undelt with emotions that the only way that they know hwo to deal with them is through anger and when they come down from the anger they have minni breakdowns and thus very emotional.

 

They need love, they need to feel that no matter what they do they will be loved they often see love as conditional and when you are angry with them they feel you no longer love them. They still need to be taught aprpriate behavior but you MUST remaine calm (easier said than done lol)

 

I use removal of privalges and I use rewards, but the rewards must be easily achevable as other wise you set them up for failer and they give up, these kids have next to no confedence and it's really not hard to do more damage as they will take everything personally.

 

My consecenses are ussally given out several hours after an episode, and I will often ask him if he is ready to hear them or if he would rather talk later. I will remove all electronics from him for a period of time. either the rest of the day up to one week but no longer and I use electronics (tv playstaion computer) because that is somthing very important to him you need to find what is important to your son. I also recomend not removing them for long especially in the begining cause inorder for them to be effective he must beable to earn them back before doing somthing eles and you need the leverage of being able to take them away again, when you run out of things to take away you have nothing left and it gets a little rediculas to the point of threatening thing you can't really remove.

 

Threats don't work, I don't tell him what will happen and deal with it after, of course my son now knows what will happen before I tell him.

 

With ODD when they get to a point of anger they can't stop they have no control over it and no rationalizing skills. When my son has an out burst ( yelling screaming and smashing things ) I would walk away and say nothing, he would follow trying to get a rise out of me and I would continue to ignore, very hard to do in the begining the only time I would intervene is if he was going to hurt somone, I have litterly locked my son out of the house, he knew when he was calm he could come back in I would state that a couple of times calmly. over time it has gotten much better to a point of he gets angery he leaves to his room and calms himself down.

 

You need to know what his triggers are and you need to watch his body language and know when to walk away and let him be or what will happen next, there are signs and walking way and ignoring dosn't mean he wins cause for him to win he has to create anger and get a responce from you.

 

Pick your battles start with only displining big things ignoring the rest.

 

You need to make him a ware that there are other emotions through talking to him afterwards about what might have set him off and how he may of felt, he may not respond and just sit there and shrug his sholders but keep talking as he still hears even though he won't show it and it does go in these kids offten have huge problems with social skills and they lie for two reasons - there always in trouble and try to avoid it and because they don't understand what they did or why they did it because it is complusive and not thought about.

 

My son often dosn't remember what he has said and done when at a peak of anger this is also normal as there anger is not ange it is rage and they black out.

 

Sorry this is so long, i have been dealing with this for over 5 years and I understand where you are at, I have probally overwhelmed you and I have lotts more to share if your interested as ODD is an untalked about disorder. Any questions don't hesitate to ask.

 

There is good news- if delt with properly it will get better but you must understand what you are dealing with on psycological baises and understand that you must look at the root of the problem more than just dealing with the symtomsand and they do out grow it- he woun't be this way his whole life!

[yergawd]

Thank you Cerise! I haven't been able to really find anyone to get first hand advice from. It drives me crazy trying to bring this subject up it's always the parent's fault. Granted this is my GirlFriend's son, so often people insist if the parent is stricter the kid wouldn't act like this. Then there's the other side of the coin "you must have caused this." Watching ny girlfriend go through this, I can tell it is devestating for her and she hates to even talk to people because of the typical reactions.

I feel like I have a million questions and don't know where to start. I think it is a lesser degree of ODD than what you have mentioned. He doesn't black out although no matter how many times we tell him why he is being punished it goes in one ear and out the other. I have gotten to the point that whether I am talking to him or he is being punished I will repeat myself then make him repeat it back to me. And I will go in several times to his room and have him repeat why he is being punished. Somewhat effective.

He doesn't think at all before he acts which makes us worry for her safety. Although he hasn't hit her, yet, you can see it in his eyes that the day might be coming. And the inappropriate touching. Do you have any advice? Any information you can give us would be hugely appreciated. He has seen every doctor and been on every drug. No help. He is seeing a counselor 2 times per week. But any Info you have please let me know. First hand experience is more valuable than all the theories and "why don't you try..."

[Cerise]

First off your welcome! I compleatley understand what you mean about the "parents fault" when people don't understand they feel the need to lay blame. ODD is rarley understood, I have even come across familly doctors that don't know what it is!

 

Often strictness is the wrong way to go it is somthing these kids can't understand or cope with they truely need to be loved and supported no matter what. I often have people that think my consecences are to light, and if I would just punish him more severly this would have never been a problem, well those people make me mad they couldn't be farther from the truth! They also think that my son has control over it and is and my light punishments let him get away with it haha once again wrong! As long as you don't feed the anger they have not won, they expect people to get mad, they expect to be severly punished and then they feel good.

 

It is kind of like people who think they are worthless and deserve to be beaten by there spouses, when somone treats them good they are uncomfortable, it dosn't feel right and it takes time and love to understand, and often they will sabotage themselves on purpose your child is doing the same thing it has nothing to do with anything you have done, and even if there has been somthing in his life that may cause him to feel this way it dosn't matter, what matters is you understand that this kid feels like he deserves to be in trouble and will go out of his way to make that happen, as things start to get better he will then suprise you and step the anger up a level, what he is doing is trying to test his enviornment, to see if you truly mean everything you have said to see if he can cause you to hate him, if he can then he knows that is all he deserves, not sure I am explainign this quite right but the best example I can give is an woman who goes from bad man to bad man, because she dosn't belive she deserves to be treated well.

 

When this first started happening to me I saw it as my son throwing tantrums, I didn't have a clue as to what was going on, I would displine him, getting harsher each time because he didn't seem to learn after I began to understand what was going on I changed my stratige and things have gotten much better. He never gets a rise from me when he is angry, the punishment is consistant, shortlived and firm but not harsh. He intially upped the anti trying to get a rise from me when it didn't work he was no longer living in chaos and no matter how hard he tired he couldn't find the conflict he was looking for.

 

I know in my cercumstance my son is very smart, and would learn very quick how to manipulate his world and this is often the case with ODD children. Even if you are not getting angry at him he knows how to play you, and gets you to tell him over and over what he has done, he is getting your attention, I would do as you are doing and say it once and make him repeat it to you and then say no more, when you talk to him and tell him though, make sure there are NO distractions-no one eles in the room, no t.v on, no music no nothing that can take him away from you, make sure he looks at you in your eyes and is very close, like no further than an arm length away and your face level with his.

 

An example of why I say once you get him to repate it say very little more-

 

My son asked to go out and play with a friend, I tell him no, "but why mom" voice slightly upset

"because it is almost dinner time"

"but I am not hungry can't I please go"

"no"

"but why?"

"because it is almost dinner time and I want you home"

"thats not good enough, I'm not hungry" now his voice is more aggitated

I ignore him, he starts pleading with me in a angry tone "please mom"

"thats not fair mom"

"Why can't I go?"

"why can't I go?"then often he will start swearing at me and/or calling me names I continue to ignore and if he dosn't stop and gets more confrontaional I will stop whatever I am doing, I will walk out of the room and do somthing eles, he may follow me asking me over and over why.

 

Now if you look at that, you will see he does understand what I said cause he he told me he isn't hungry, he is pushing me with the why question hoping to either make me mad or to change my mind and let him go, it has nothing to do with understanding. Another thing with only stating you self bluntly a couple of times is that he learns to listen, because if he dosn't you won't tell him again.

 

It may or may not be that he dosn't think, maybe he can't think before acting. ADHD may be the factor there, they are complusive and think after the fact not before. In that case I would try to remove and avoid any and all temptaions that might cause problems. My daughter has severe ADHD and when we would put her to bed at night she would go to the bathroom saying she needed to pee, well she legitamitly need to pee, but while in there she would get distracted and start palying with somthing, she knew she shouldn't and would try to hide it or lie about it after but she really couldn't help herself, so I removed the temptaion, when she went to the bathroom I would go with her and stand outside the door, just knowing I was there was enough to keep her from doing somthing she shouldn't and now she can go on her own, but she also knows that if she is in there too long I will check on her, and when I do check on her I will sneak up on her then she dosn't have time to hide what she is doing and gets caught in the act, the best consequence out there, cause they can't deny.

 

The hitting is somthing that comes with it, it is part of the rage and lack of control, if my son hits the consequences are more severe but that is a tough one. If he is playing with sibling try to not leave them alone, try to intervene before it becomes somthing more than just words try to avoid the situation, you know the saying "if you don't use it you will lose it" lol well it is true if they don't have the opertunity to hit it will eventually become less of a reaction. As for the inappropiate touch, I am assuming you mean sexually, I have no experiance there. But I would deal with it like everything eles, try to avoid a possible situation and don't give responce to it.

 

In one of your other posts I read that his mother gets frusterated, well I compleately understand and don't blame her but she has to realize that if at the end of the day she shows her anger she has just renforced everything that has gone on all day and he knows that to get a reaction all he has to do is push a little harder. I am not saying she must be perfect, but if she dosn't feel she can deal with it calmly and factualy then she needs to ignore it and not deal with it at all (if possible) better for it not to be delt with than show anger.

 

In your first post you mentioned breaking things, when that has happened I don't get upset I don't ussally disapline I use "natrual consequenses" My son punched a hole in the wall, he had to fix it, not only did he learn to fix drywall which made him feel good about himself, but it was real! If you put a hole in the wall would any one send you to your room? No but you would be left with the problem of fixing it.

 

The problem with ODD is there is NO fix, theres no medication no sound proof treatment for it, all you can do is modify there evironment, stay calm and conssitant, help them understand there feelings and talk to them about other ways of dealing with things over and over and over and wait till he grows out of it, but if you do that it will hopfully get milder as you wait.

 

Ultimatly the best advice I can give in nut shell is to show that your love is not conditional, always forgive them right away, don't give him an emotional responce to anything negitive. Avoid anger and situations that will ultimatly cause it and try your best to understand what he may be feeling underlying the anger and deal with that ignoring the anger, never feed it! Understand the lack of control and help him see his triggers before he gets angry so that he can learn to walk away. Let him know where you stand and what you expect and that all though life even as an adult there are consequenses for our actions. But most importantly you understand that he dosn't mean to be this way and want to help him and love him.

 

 

Sorry for the bad spelling

[Cerise]

One more thing I would like to metion is the bed wetting- it is not nesacerly abnormal!

 

If there is an emotional disorder (which there is) then it is comon

If there is a genetic factor then it is comon, did the parents wet there beds and if so for how long?

 

My mother wet her bed tell she was well into her teens ( belive she told me she did so regularly untill 15). I wet my bed until I was almost twelve with it slowing down from a everynight thing when I was 10. My son wet his bed until he was 11 and has wet it once in the last 2 years since. My Daughter still wets her bed often and she is 10 and my other daughter is 8 and has wether bed only a couple of times since turning 5.

 

There is a hormone componate to this as well, I forget what it is called but it is what makes you feel your bladder is full and wake up. It is realsed at 3 different times in life at 2years, 5years and at puberty if you don't have enough relased at any of these times you will continue to wet the bed.