Hurt & nowhere to turn

[mourningMM]

Is that the reason you don't see her mourning is she did that for many of the 18 months that she failed to communicate clearly and effectively with you.

 

If she made those statements, I'd suggest framing up a separation agreement with your lawyer and submitting it to her (and her lawyer).

 

I'd be sure that it shows she is abandoning the marriage, don't make it easy on her by wording it as a separation agreement. Just write up the statments and have her sign them...the equivalent of a pre-nup but post-nup.

 

Essentially she would be waving her rights to joint property.

 

If you write it up that way, and make it clear to her that you do not AGREE to separate, and that she is ABANDONING the marriage and would therefore be AT FAULT, it might give her a moment of pause.

 

If she has already moved on mentally, she might not care....especially if she has the means as a career woman to give herself the lifestyle she likes to lead.

 

But if she's gotten used to a two-income lifestyle, and is faced with the reality ... it may make her re-evaluate.

 

But then again, if she's been thinking about this for 18 months, you should also probably get a PI and look for an OM. 18 months without emotional support and intimacy, making these decisions ... not likely.

[Psch1968]

Well today she started packing clothes ..... my god, how much more painful does this get?

 

But, I am really working to stay cool, stay friendly, not be in her face all day (going out etc), and just generally showing I care without saying 'I am desperate'. Not having any effect yet (or that I can see) but I am going to do this for the 2 weeks she is still under my roof and then we'll see what happens then. I will not mention Seperation Agreement at the moment - do not think this is a move that will help her realise I have changed.

 

Strength and fortitude - persevere through the pain right!

[Psch1968]

We got talking for 2 hours tonight - actually very open and honest again. No arguing, just honest good communication - she actualy said 'I can see you have really realised whats been happening and have changed - and I feel a little bitter that it has taken you this long to change and only now after I am moving out'.

 

Positive in that she appears to be seeing the change, the care, the communication etc - but she is still moving out.

 

So we then discussed what might happen and though she did not say it, she did not get as defensive as she has in the past when I have mentioned reconciliation - sort of said 'who knows?'

 

The advice on this site has been fantastic - Gunny / Butterfly you have saved me numerous times already - am I reading too much into this (probably), should I just stay cool, keep caring, keep asking her how she is etc, lay off any 'romantic gestures', and then play the patience game?

[Psch1968]

Oh and before anyone says it - I am still hoping for the best but expecting the worse.

[Psch1968]

So update today.

 

She seems very happy (!) - swanning around, packing things, emptying closet, generally acting like all of a suddent the weight of the world is off her shoulders. Of course makes me feel even worse - when I took those vows I meant them (yes I have made some big mistakes and am now paying the price) but I am still struggling to understand why she is acting the way she is.

 

Maybe she does have an EA going on - it would explain why she keeps checking her blackberry every hour, oh christ I don't know!!! Bad day today but then I imagine Sundays are always the worse.

 

Still keeping outwardly happy, trying to act 'As If', but really not convinced this is right way to handle this.

[debilou]

I just read your thread...let me offer my sympathy to your pain. Man oh man, I have to say it...there's someone else. She may not be in an actual relationship with him but he's the reason she wants out.

 

My XH of 18 years did everything your W is doing. Everything! It's so irritating to find yourself in this position. I feel your pain, NO ~ I remember that physical pain in my stomach. I'm much better now.

 

Have you been to http://www.marriagebuilders.com yet? That was helpful for me during this time. I remember the many sleepless nights...no appetite...just getting thru the day. I raced to the computer hoping for some new insight on how to fix my life. Bottom line...it takes 2 people to make a marriage work. Don't blame yourself. This is so typical of a WS...they blame us for everything. And for a while I bought it. It's almost like being brain washed.

 

Butterfly37...have you read James Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough"? I strongly urge you to if you haven't.

 

Psych1968...we're here for you...time heals all wounds.

 

Take care, Debilou

[Psch1968]

Debilou - maybe she is, maybe she is not, I don't really know right. There is a guy with whom she had an affair many years back (b4 she met me), who she has kept in contact with over the years (but he is in UK and we are here in US obviously) - if it were happening, I could certainly see an EA there - but even if there were, my choice remains whether to fight or give up. I choose the former ....... and am doing a lot to try and change the game despite what appear to be insurmountable odds against.

[Darth Vader]

I can understand the fighting for her, but at what cost? Your sanity? If she's gonna Bang OM, she's gonna Bang him, there's not much you can do about that, If I were you, I would get my butt protected, house, money, 401k, etc. Stop wasting your time on some chick who doesn't give a flying crap about what she does to you, how she hurts you. Don't waste your time or energy on her sorry butt, let her go, divorce her by having a good lawyer and move on. There's better women than her on a bad day!

[Psch1968]

Monday update.......

 

So she started work at the company I work at today - when we got home I had cooked dinner which she seemed to appreciate, and I asked her about her day, listenened intently, and didn't offer up any opinions.

 

Seemed to go well, but then announced she had booked Xmas/New Year back in the UK with her family, and told me she was going away with the girls to AC weekend of Oct 1st.

 

I don't think I can take this - she is acting 'free', seems totally unawares of the impact this is having on me, and I am thinking of just telling her......

 

'you have got what you want - its not what I want, but good luck to you and lets just finalise this so we can both move on'

 

The thought of living alone is not as bad right now as the thought of living a hopeless existence hanging on for someone that right now, appears totally oblivious to the pain she is causing, totally ignorrant of her responsibilities, and who may well be having an EA on the side....

[Psch1968]

So update on Thursday....

 

I found on an old PC a number of mails from about 12 months ago to her ex lover back in UK, which were very friendly and in which he was subtely giving her emotional support. I can't see anything more recent as have no access to her email but I think its clear this has grown and that she has been having an emotional affair with this guy - which grew as a result of our lack of emotional support for each other. Now its too late and she's ready to walk away....

 

Sigh. Not sure 'manning up' will make a diff in my marriage now, though perhaps it cannot cause more damage than already has been done.

[butterfly37]

I strongly urge you to read Love Must Be Tough By James Dobson if you haven't already done so. I'm kicking myself for not having put it into practice right from the start. Why do we have to learn everything we need to know after the fact?

[butterfly37]

Oh, and another thing, if your relationship is not based on honor and respect, you don't have a thing. Demand respect and show honor. And if she wants to walk away, YOU should take the first step back , open the cage door and even give her a little shove. She won't know what to do.....

[Psch1968]

b37 - thanks. So I agree, but the conundrum is that like you, I dearly love her (AGAPE) and what if I am wrong about the EA - it sure makes sense, it looks very likely, my gut is usually right, but what if I am wrong - if I give her a little shove will I finally slam the door on any hopes of reconciliation - caught between devil and the deep blue sea, because she keeps denying any A and just wont talk about the R issues?

[butterfly37]

I am going to go back through this whole thread, read it again and pray. Just give me a few minutes......

[Gunny376]

She's crazy for leaving ~ and I know you've told her so, but once a woman jumps on that bus, and tells the driver "Go man go! There's no stopping a woman that's out of control!

 

Time to face the music ~ she's not going ~ she's gone! She's left the relationship, you everything emotionally a long time ago. Time to move on. Read post by djmargel and RoosterDAR. There's no getting this one back ~ not today. She's going to have to go out there and flounder on the beach of love ~ to realize what a good thing she had.

 

Begging won't work! Pleading won't work. What just might work is regaining your dignity, self respect. self confidence. What might work is doing a "brain-dump" of all her BS lame ass, nothing but negative excuses for leaving and dumping you.

 

The bottom line is it sounds like she's wanting herself some "strange". Now, that's not the same as it is for men. Its much more multi-dimensional to a woman than just sex ~ although it could involve sex ~ sex in and of itself isn't always an end game objective when it comes to EA and PA's for women. (Although it can be sometimes ~ but most women have to have an emotional connection for it to be really good) The song "This Kiss" comes to mind in describing what I'm talking about.

 

I of all people realize how painful this is, and its one thing that can bring a man (or anyone) to their knees.

 

Being single isn't that bad, living alone is that bad ~ and if you stick with it long enough ~ it will become your prefered choice. I'm very selective about who I date now. Because lets face it? Its expensive in terms of not only just financial investment, but also in terms of time, effort, energy ~ and yes even emotions.

 

Besides, you won't have to go and buy all that crap at Walmart again.

 

I know people locally that are on their 2nd, third, fourth marriages? That's just insane! Here in AL, its against the law to marry the same person more than three times, and to get married period more than six times! I know one guys that's be married to the same woman four times. The fourth time they had to drive to GA two hours away to get married! That's just crazy!

 

To quoute W.C. Fields, "Try, try again ~ then quit! No use in making a damn fool out of yourself!"

 

Even if she is having an EA with the guy in the UK via the internet ~ its all smoke, puff and mirrors. Internet love affairs are 2/3's fantasy and illussion. And can't stand the light of day when it comes to reality. Fantasy can never match up to reality!

 

You want a chance in Hell of getting her back? Let her go ~ and then from every angle that she can see and tell you've gotten over her and have moved on and are having the time of your life. Get busy ~ getting busy! Get fired up about your life! To quote Lady Jane, "Its the end of your marriage ~ not your life!"

 

Life's too freaking short! And it truly is! Too freaking to be begging some woman to let you love her.

 

So your screwed up? Get over it! The truth of the matter is that you didn't have 2/3's the knowledge and experience to make it work. And, you know what? Neither did she! I'm still reading and learning ~ in fact! That's what lead me to LS in the first place ~ looking for the solutions and the answers.

 

You could have multiple PhD's and be the World's leading expert on why marriages fail ~ and still never know nor comprehend why yours failed. Many things in life aren't meant for understanding ~ much in life is for expercing!

 

Life is for living ~ and it will pass you by unless you open your eyes to what you are missing! Don't piss away years on this woman, this relationship.

 

You want out of this pain and misery? Its as simple as saying this:

 

"You know what?!!! I'm done with this!"

 

Quit sitting around poking sharp sticks at something that's already to dead, trying to determine if its dead!

 

Get up, and get to moving your azz up the trail of your life, ~ get busy finding out what Life has in store for you up ahead.

[Psch1968]

Gunny - I hear you, I really do. And I am - just last 2 weeks, I have joined a rugby club (start training tonite - and great social scene to make friends etc), I have joined a yoga class (more ways to make friends), I have started a 16 week gym work out program to rebuild my upper body strength, and I am enrolled in language lessons. I am GAL, and all the time I am doing 180's - listening to her when she talks, being friendly, not getting angry, not pleading etc etc.

 

The questions is ... am I prodding something that's dead, or is it something pretending to be dead?

 

Enough women on this ite and others have given me lost of helpdful advice - and a lot of it makes sense - 'believe nothing they say and less about what they do, they will test you to see if the changes are permanent, etc'.

 

So I come back to the point - it is almost easier for me at this stage to just give up, boot her out, and meet someone else - but I am not that sort of guy, I don't take the highway sign labelled 'easy', never have done. And there are stories of marriages that have come back from worse that where we are, and that have survived and become even stronger (albeit they are a minority).

 

Its all about timing, patience, respect, and honesty - and its the latter I am struggling with. I will give her time, I am giving her respect by letting her go, and I am being patient (I am getting nothing back yet) but if she is being deceptive and dishonest, its a new ball game.

 

And problem is a man analyses and always comes up with the worst case scenario, whereas most of the women I know have said it just doesn't automatically work that way.

 

Still in a quandary......

[Gunny376]

Ok, then just continue to work on yourself and yourself. Identify your weaknesses and shortcomings and seek self improvement. Identify and recognize your part of the failure. Work on becoming a better you, man, partner to someone else.

 

For now? Assume its over! And get busy living your life, while being cool, calm and collected ~ friendly wihtout being an azzhat. If she says anything about how your coming across, just tell her:

 

"I screwed up ~ I screwed up and didn't even recognize I was screwing up. I'm working on learning and growing from this painful experience, because I don't ever want to go through this pain again! It may be too late for "us" but all I can do is learn and grow from it, and become a better man, a better person because of it!

 

Wheater or not we'll ever get back together, is up to you and time. I'm willing to try again, but I can't do it alone. All I can do is accept your decision and move on with my life!"

 

And Psch? That's all you really can do!

 

There's no time table ~ there no alarm clocks to this. If you want to hold out hope against hope ~ more power to ya! But its not for the faint of heart, nor the weak minded. Its a hard row to hoe! And you've got my respect for taking the harder path. I'm just saying, be realistic about it. In the end? There simply may be too much water over the damn and under the bridge ~ for now?

 

For now? Just leave it alone ~ don't try to fix it ~ just work on and fix the part you can ~ YOU!

[Psch1968]

So I slipped up, I back slid!

 

We swapped some light hearted texts yesterday (she started), and then my stupid side went and left a flower on her windscreen so that when she got home from work she would find it - and this on the night she went over to the house she is mobing into a week on Sat to sign contracts!

 

She textedme and asked if I had left it, I responded with a playful 'maybe', and she then went cold silent on me.

 

Stupid, stupid, stupid!!!!! No one said this was easy...

[Ladyjane14]

We swapped some light hearted texts yesterday (she started), and then my stupid side went and left a flower on her windscreen so that when she got home from work she would find it - and this on the night she went over to the house she is mobing into a week on Sat to sign contracts!

 

She textedme and asked if I had left it, I responded with a playful 'maybe', and she then went cold silent on me.

 

I hate quoting myself, but I just did a post on another thread having to do with this same sort of thing ....

 

Okay... Scared and Toolate, what these guys are telling you is exactly right. When you compare Lakeside's post to Curm's, they might at first seem contradictory... but they're both true.

 

If... and I mean IF.... your girls aren't playing, then you're facing "The Book of Wrongs". And while it might seem on the surface that the thing to do is to somehow convince her of your sincere remorse via emotional barrage... it's a mistake.

 

This is a situation in which ACTIONS speak louder than WORDS. It's also a situation in which we must acknowledge that we don't always value what we have until it's GONE. You guys know that... now.

But the same is true of these women as well. They KNOW that you're not gone... and since you're waiting in the wings, they don't have to deal with the emotional fallout of the break-up. Instead, their energy is still being utilized to extricate themselves from the relationship.

 

Now, I don't believe that NC is necessarily the way to go when you're the one who's committed the majority of the marital "sins". There's some balance to be had. You can't be following her around like a dog. She won't respect you for one thing, and she won't come to the realization that she's losing you for another. But you can't act like you aren't sorry for whatever neglect you were guilty of either.

 

What you might try is Michelle Weiner Davis' techniques as described in Divorce Busting. Here's an excerpt:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or

implore!

2. No frequent phone calls

3. Do not point out good points in marriage

4. Do not follow him around the house

5. Do not encourage talk about the future

6. Do not ask for help from family members

7. Do not ask for reassurances

8. Do not buy gifts

9. Do not schedule dates together

10. Do not spy on spouse

11. Do not say "I Love You"

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get

busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,

etc.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start

the conversation) be scarce or short on words

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his

whereabouts, ASK NOTHING

17. You need to make your partner think that you have

had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you

are going to move on with your life, with or without

your spouse

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull

back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more

important, realize what he will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show

your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him

someone he would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on

hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which

may be a while)

21. Never lose your cool

22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic

23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes

their feelings stronger)

24. Be patient

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really

saying to you

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you

want to speak out

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &

focus on all the other parts of your life that are not

in turmoil)

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest

CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any

words you can say or write

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you

are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with

your spouse

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than

50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in

absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad

you feel

34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes

I high-lighted #29 for you... because these techniques are largely about showing ACTIONS, giving your wayward spouse something to observe. Let's face it, by the time we're fed up enough to pack up our household goods and LEAVE... we've already heard everything our partner has to SAY. His WORDS have historically lacked substance at that point.

 

So now... you need to SHOW her something. You show her an attractive potential mate, one who's interesting and maybe a bit mysterious. You let her watch you make your changes as a voyeur, allowing your actions to speak for you rather than your words. And... you do it in an HONEST way. Don't utilize 180's from the list which don't feel right and natural. As far as we know, we're not dealing with adultery, we're dealing with "The Book of Wrongs"... so you don't want to be harsh.

 

This is wholly different from getting into a NO CONTACT situation. Essentially, your new policy is to allow her to come to you. Of course, you don't set it in granite like it was some kind of game or something. There are times when you may be required to initiate contact.

 

For example... Scared, you have a child to consider and will occasionally need to contact her with information related to parenting. But when you do, you only introduce the pertinent information to your conversation. You let her bring up any 'relationship' issues. And if she does, it's okay to tell her that you still love her and want her back. But you don't bring it up first and you don't maunder on and on about it. Short, sweet, to the point... that way you're leaving her with "the bullet", an easily remembered piece of information with no unpleasant emotional aftertaste.

 

Fact is, what you want is that she be rewarded with a pleasant experience each time she contacts you. But you don't go out of your way to accomplish it in acts that she will undoubtedly perceive as machinations. It's just your DAILY business to be a nice and attractive guy, somebody who any girl would be lucky to be in a relationship with.

 

So, you begin to see how all this begging and whining can make you unattractive. The experience of being in your company is leaving her with an "unpleasant emotional aftertaste".

 

 

Originally Posted by Gunny376 View Post

When it comes to women (most but not all) when it gets to this point, they've already left you mentally, emotionally, spiritually ~ and now? They've not going ~ they're gone!

You need to be aware that MOST OFTEN, what Gunny has told you here, is the unvarnished truth of the matter. More often than not, by the time a woman has packed up her junk and left you... there's NOTHING you can do that will impress her enough to change her mind.

 

In many cases, she's already shifted her romantic interest to another potential partner, and among those cases... she's content to leave her ex percolating nicely on the back-burner while she explores her other options.

 

Following a plan similar to Davis' 180's, you can create some distance which will disabuse your 'wayward' of the notion that you are willing to wait indefinitely. But more importantly... it moves you further down the path to healing. It gives you an opportunity to become engaged in your own life, to get to know yourself a bit better, to have some dignity. It pulls you out of the cycle of sadness and emotional self-abuse as you pull off your hair shirt, forgive yourself for your past mistakes, and start making baby-steps toward becoming the man you want to see reflected in your bathroom mirror each morning.

 

Scared... you're a father. If you read through ILMW's thread, you'll see how truly rewarding it can be to develop your own separate relationship with your child. And I'll tell you a secret... there's very little which is higher on a woman's list of Emotional Needs than being a good father to the children. Being a consistent and healthy presence in your little boy's life makes you more "attractive" than you can possibly imagine, and it comes with it's own rewards no matter the outcome of the marital relationship.

 

Concentrate on being a good man and a good dad to your son. In the end, these are the things that will be most important to you. There's NOTHING that can replace self-respect. And you'll respect yourself more when "the man in the mirror" has no complaint with you.

 

The flower you left on her windscreen puts her back into "I-need-to-extricate-myself-from-this-relationship" mode. And THAT's where she will apply her energy.

 

Instead of a pleasant interaction she might want to repeat at some point in the near future... you left her with an "unpleasant emotional aftertaste". She's re-energized to RUN when she observes pursuit.

[Psch1968]

Thanks LJ14 - well thats cheered me up no end :-(

 

I know what I did wrong.

[Gunny376]

LJ's advice ROCKS!

 

She and I should go into the marriage counseling business together! She'd take care of the "in-house" stuff giving out advice!

 

Me? I'll be guy in the side alley with the baseball bat, the "Sluggo" cap and "wife beater" tank top waiting to wear your happy azz out when you don't follow it!!

 

Dr. Phil wouldn't have nuthin' on us!

[marlena]

Psych,

I've gone through your whole thread and know so deeply in my heart the anguish you are going through! You are on the receiving end of some ecxellent advice on here. Listen to LJ and Gunny! They speak with wisdom that comes through experience and intense self - searching! I wish LS had been around when I was going through my divorce! I made every mistake in the book! Until that one day of revelation, when something just made my head twist around and I saw myself in the mirror and what I saw I did not like at all! So why should anyone else? I grew strong in my quest for myself and my mantra was, "I will find myself again"! Rediscovering that interesting, strong, sensitive, confident and self -reliant person I had been before my marriage was a fascinating experience! And you know what? My ex wanted back - still does- but by then I knew I would not allow anyone to shred my integrity again.

 

You will eventually do the same ....it as an inescapable path that you must walk!!

You can do it!!! You know you can!!!

[butterfly37]

"She and I should go into the marriage counseling business together! She'd take care of the "in-house" stuff giving out advice!"

 

Gunny, maybe some of the reason that we have to go through this **** is so that we can help others?

[Gunny376]

"She and I should go into the marriage counseling business together! She'd take care of the "in-house" stuff giving out advice!"

 

Gunny, maybe some of the reason that we have to go through this **** is so that we can help others?

 

BF

 

Part of my own personal spiritual believes is that we're not just mortal beings having a spiritual experience, but truly spiritual beings having a mortal experience.

 

To me? This life isn't anything more than a spiritual classroom. Death? Ain't nuthin' but a "thing" ~ a process of our returning to our orginal state of being. That a lot of what we go through in "this life" are nothing more than experiences to be experienced, that we will not completely understand until we return to our orginal state of being ~ and that on "this level" are incomprehensible in our current state of being.

 

When I put life in this context? A lot of what J.C said made a lot of sense to me! Its not about this life? Its not about wealth, material possessions ~ its about learning un-conditional love and getting back to the orignal "Source" of un-conditional love!

 

From your posts, I'd say your well on your way! That's why a lot of your posts make sense to me!

[marlena]

Butterfly,

Judging from your picture and your posts you are a beautiful woamn ..inside and out!! Five years is simply too long to be wearring blindfolds. I respect your perseverance and noble feelings but even those need to be protected. Your husband had five long years to make a mature decision of whom to leave behind and whom to follow! Instead he chose the middle road as you have done as well .. and it is this middle road that is causing you so much anguish and torment! I know ... I have been there..it is indeed a rough road to travel ...

 

In many ways it seems that you are obsessing far too long over this man .... You need to change your mindset and as cliche as it may sound ... let him go ....not just in actions but in your heart...

 

From what I gather from your posts your aim is not to be just friends with your husband but to bring him back to the homestead...there is a world of difference between the two....

 

You can be friends without harboring that hope and move on with your life .... Take your daughters under your wing and this will supply you with a singleminded purpose from which you may draw strength .... which of course you have in abundance ....but of course you already know that!

 

On your side ... and here for you