Author East of Jupiter Posted August 2, 2007 Author Posted August 2, 2007 Okay, as a guy I have some opinions...whether they help or not. Guys (as I have done or heard/seen done) tend to "forget" to tell their wives something such as about beautiful women for a few reasons... 1. He wants to avoid conflict. This seems to be a real possibility. 2. He wants to avoid having to explain his relationship with her. 3. He wants to keep quiet about her, because hey, a guy never knows...she may one day be a possible OW. And yes, that is also a real possibility. 4. He genuinely forgets sometimes, and when he remembers, he is afraid that because he is late in telling, it will be a big deal. I am one who thinks that if he had not cheated in the past, his lies of omission would NOT be a big deal. But since he has shown that he cannot be trusted, you are suspicious of his "forgetting" something so important as the women who he sees. And I would say that if he cares about his marriage, he had better figure out that to rebuild trust, he will need to tell you about every woman whom he will come in contact with. The question in my mind is...does he really care about his marriage anymore? Check on 1 through 4. I have thought this thing out to death. We already had that agreement. He broke it. Thanks James I really do want a male POV. And I think there is truth in all of it. But the stakes were hight and he blew it. Again.
Author East of Jupiter Posted August 2, 2007 Author Posted August 2, 2007 I dunno. If you look at it from your husband's POV and walk a mile in his shoes, he might be feeling like he's never going to get out of the doghouse with you. He f*cked up the trust in your relationship. If he'd never cheated on you, you wouldn't have cause to doubt him now. Assuming you're going to stay together though, there has to be a point at which the slate is cleaned, a point at which the trust can be considered to be successfully 're-built'... otherwise he's never truly equal in the relationship. Don't get me wrong... I think every BS has an absolute right to dump a cheating partner if that's what they want to do. But should they decide to forgive their partner instead, there needs to be some kind of plan for getting to a COMPLETE state of forgiveness. Think about it this way, if he'd never, I mean NEVER, given you the slightest cause for doubt, would your reaction be the same in this particular situation as it was? And if your answer is 'no'... then he's likely to be feeling like he doesn't have your complete forgiveness, in which case he's probably stumped, frustrated, and angry... clueless as to how he might finally get it. <sigh> I couldn't agree with you more. This is precisely where we were. I did forgive and we were in a good place. He's had so many chances. He is a no win situation. He has screwed over so bad so many times that he has no room for error. That's a tough spot to be but he knew this and he accepted the terms of our agreement. I don't need or want to know about every woman he works with. I only asked that he be honest about where he was with whom. And I wanted to know the women he works closely with. There aren't that many as his field is mostly male populated. I didn't ask him if so and so there? He would volunteer "I'm at lunch with Joe and Bob" and omitted "Julie" was there. This is not a mistake. This has been going on for about six month with one lady and two years with another though the lady out of town is a different situation but he still never mentioned her. To add to this, he DID TELL ME ABOUT OTHERS... So I feel duped. He gave me a false sense of security. This is past behavior and he admits it but denies he was setting up. Do I type stupid to all of you? Obviously, he must think I am. I honestly don't feel one bit of jealousy over him. Not ONE bit. I can't explain it but my ordeal in the past and the hard work I did ON ME And yes as James said, it got out from under him. He didn't tell me and then he got scared to tell me and then I found out.
Author East of Jupiter Posted August 2, 2007 Author Posted August 2, 2007 Caught your use of the term... "Affairyland" earlier today. Nearly snorted my cold-drink on the screen. Really... submit that one to Webster's. It's perfect. I can't take credit for "Affairyland" it is a term a group of us came up with many years ago on a different forum. But it sure fits doesn't it?
Author East of Jupiter Posted August 2, 2007 Author Posted August 2, 2007 This, is a first for me. What do I feel? A huge relief. The only problem is: "huge relief" is a temporary destination. Especially when you stay. Appathy rules most of my life but all of a sudden Mr. Rage returns and I have this uncontrollable desire to poke someones eyes out! Those days when you find yourself thinking, that's fine but God help you if you fall asleep, seem to creep back 'round, no matter how much you think you're committed to Mr. ICGAF! Point is, its truly cyclical. And that is not a good cycle! You are creeping me out IWWH. You just described my life. And I had a front row seat at my mother's and that's where I think I learned it. Yikes! Thanks for the response. Only difference is I never felt this way and I had not told him off as I have this time. I have always been so careful about his ego and not injuring him and saying things in the right way so that it doesn't hurt our marriage. Welcome Mr. ICGAF! I really went off this time and I can't find the "off" button. I am like this for my own emotional safety and others. I don't get mad often because once I go in one direction I can't seem to get back and I have been afraid of this happening in our marriage. I was married once before and my biggest fear when marrying again was that I would wake up one day and realize I didn't love this person. If I ever feel that way again, there will be no going back. I'm a terrible phony. I dislike (can't seem to hate anybody) as passionately as I love.
Tomcat33 Posted August 2, 2007 Posted August 2, 2007 <sigh> I don't need or want to know about every woman he works with. I only asked that he be honest about where he was with whom. And I wanted to know the women he works closely with. There aren't that many as his field is mostly male populated. I didn't ask him if so and so there? He would volunteer "I'm at lunch with Joe and Bob" and omitted "Julie" was there. This is not a mistake. This has been going on for about six month with one lady and two years with another though the lady out of town is a different situation but he still never mentioned her. ' I think you do, and I also think you know this. This is what I mean about nipping things in the bud. There is no shame to be had in wanting to know about your Hs work life. Especially give your history together. We spend an awful lot of time in our other world (the professional one) and there is no reason why he should omit any part of it. That's opening the channels of trust completely. If you were to to ask him this in a way that is not threatening and that helps him understand that it is not a control thim but simply a way in which it can help you both be stronger friends, he might see it as something positive instead of something scary.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted August 2, 2007 Posted August 2, 2007 I just described my life honey. 15 days or so and you'll have pm's and I could creep you out even more! It's ok though, what doesn't kill you makes you stonger or lands your a$$ in jail! I'M a VERY good girl though!!! I was married once before and my biggest fear when marrying again was that I would wake up one day and realize I didn't love this person. Let me ask you this, after all of this and give about let's say 3 weeks does he really seem to CARE how you feel or is it all just let begonias be begonias, which is MY pet name for it now. You're dealing with something bigger than yourself and it isn't him. I spent years in psych dealing with people with these issues AND it took me an additional 18 years to realize that I was married to one. Living in SOMEONE ELSES reality ain't no fun, no matter how nice life is.
Author East of Jupiter Posted August 2, 2007 Author Posted August 2, 2007 . You might not like what I am going to say but I am just trying to offer a different point of view. I can't say he is or he is not planning to cheat but what you said above caught my attention. Could it be that he is really not planning anything sneaky and he just omits these things because he knows it will make you feel jealous and really is avoiding conflict? People who are overly proud hide a much deeper emotion which is often fear or insecurity. When you are overly proud and hold back from reacting in ways that he might deem as insecure what you are doing is just supressing your insecurities and the insecurities manifest themselves in sometimes less rational ways which he may be very good at reading. Men are very good at that. Sometimes it's better to just come right out and talk about your insecurities as vulnerable as that may make you and nip the problem in the bud. It's not easy but if you get into the habit of it you will feel more at ease with your emotions and it might even prompt him to offer information spontaneously because he won't feel threatened that you will overreact. Maybe you have trained yourself into not calling him at work to make him feel like you are not controlling or trying to check up on him, but calling him is something he might see as natural and you might be overanalizing that action and thinking "if I call he might think I am checking up on him"So it takes the spontenaety out of your dynamic. I know habits are hard to break once we start them, so I can symapthise with that. Wa are how we are. I welcome your POV TC. There is a lot of truth in what you say and some of it fits. I will not call or chase or ask out of pride. Also even for a person withouth our past his job situation is challenging at best. It takes a pretty strong sense of self to deal with your husband out and about as he is daily and the places he goes. Yes, he says he doesn't tell me these things to avoid a conflict. The only problem with that is that he had told me of others. Also, that we had made an agreement that he would be honest about where he was and with whom. I have never freaked out about anyone or anything. I attend functions and know some of the ladies. We recently got back from a company outing. There was a very young lady involved and I have no issue with that. And had I not been there and he had come home and said exactly that, I would have no had a problem. Now ... the young woman he failed to tell me about? She would have been there that night but she didnt come this year. He knew this and felt comfortable with me coming along as he would not have had to explain. He would have had a lot of explaining to do had I met her only to find out their working relationship. See what I mean? He did this to me in the past. The women were way too friendly for the working relatioship he wanted to sell me on. We had been going back in forth for months because he was acting hinky. He is a terrible liar as well. I had given him many opportunities to share but he didn't. He even admits that everytime he met with this one lady, he got stressed about it. Okay, what the hell does that mean? That means that he knew what he was doing and continued to do it. And this is at the root of all his past behavior and which I can't tolerate. You know it's wrong but you do it anyway. He admits this. Someone said immature and I swear it did not occur to me before but that so fits. Especially the last 24 hours. His MO is to act like a little boy who got caught with his hand halfway to the cookie jar. He will engage you in a argument as to whether his arm was coming down away from the jar or towards the jar and how he was thinking about it and he really wasn't going to do it. Heck he doesn't even like cookies all that much. In the end you don't know if there was anything in the damned cookie jar and if it even mattered. Passive aggressive people are probably the most difficult to live with.
Author East of Jupiter Posted August 2, 2007 Author Posted August 2, 2007 I just described my life honey. 15 days or so and you'll have pm's and I could creep you out even more! It's ok though, what doesn't kill you makes you stonger or lands your a$$ in jail! I'M a VERY good girl though!!! I was married once before and my biggest fear when marrying again was that I would wake up one day and realize I didn't love this person. Let me ask you this, after all of this and give about let's say 3 weeks does he really seem to CARE how you feel or is it all just let begonias be begonias, which is MY pet name for it now. You're dealing with something bigger than yourself and it isn't him. I spent years in psych dealing with people with these issues AND it took me an additional 18 years to realize that I was married to one. Living in SOMEONE ELSES reality ain't no fun, no matter how nice life is. He is the most wonderful man to me. He cares and shows it. He apologizes and I know in my heart he really hates what he does to me and us. He dotes on me in the smallest of ways. He is kind and thoughtful and ... This is why he is driving me NUTS. I have to constantly reconcile. I have been in denial as I needed to be. We needed time after the past and I really thought he was okay. That's my bad. I knew in my heart that he is not. No man does what he did and can simply snap out of it as he has tried to do. He would argue the womanizer label. This last time he took responsibility. He didn't argue that he isn't a womanizer. He has no answers. That is the bottom line. I can't trust this episode as just immaturity and his avoidance. We have discussed things to the ground and rebuilt from that. His word has to be gold because it was s*it for so long.
Ladyjane14 Posted August 2, 2007 Posted August 2, 2007 I honestly don't feel one bit of jealousy over him. Not ONE bit. I can't explain it but my ordeal in the past and the hard work I did ON ME I totally 'get' that. I'm no longer jealous over mine either. His transgressions weren't nearly as bad as what your husband's were, but bad enough... at least to MY mind... that I let him go in a way. Don't get me wrong, I love him to pieces... but if he wants to go I'm not really in a place where that's gonna bust me up past salvage. It's a weird feeling actually. In alot of ways, I love him more than I ever did. And yet I'm better prepared emotionally for losing him than I ever was too. I think when a man does you wrong, you don't have much choice but to become self-reliant. And even if you take him back, that sense of self-reliance stays with you. It's not like you're emotionally disconnected or anything like that. It's more like you appreciate him more because you don't really need him. All that said... when he disappoints you, the pertinent fact that seems to spring first to mind is... you don't need him. I think all you can do at that point is to remember that you CHOSE to stay in... and to honor your choice as best you can. The "lie by omission" isn't the biggest problem you've got with him obviously. The biggest problem is that he should be able to tell you anything, and for whatever f*cked up reason he's got in his head... he's not doing it. Now, you don't sound like a person who's especially hard to talk to, so that leaves the communications problem as stemming from him. Maybe it's guilt. (????) Not just for what he did in the past, but maybe just something stupid like noticing when a girl is pretty. If it was me, (and I'm assuming your husband IS the nice guy you've said he is, despite his mistakes)... I'd apologize. Now, hear me out... there's a method to my madness. I'd apologize and I'd tell him that I recognize my insecurities and that I felt like I'd overreacted. Then I'd tell him what really freaked me out was to realize that he didn't feel like he could tell me things. I'd remind him of how much we'd already been through to GET to the point where we could talk through anything and everything, and how it hurt me to think that he didn't feel free with me... etc. etc. etc. The apology is, of course, to soften him up and make him feel like you're on equal footing, both having done something wrong as it pertains to the communications process. You need to disarm him. It's worth it... because you need him to talk to you. You need him to tell you 'why' he doesn't feel safe sharing with you. Even if it's something stupid like guilt for noticing a pretty girl... he's leaving you out of his inner circle when he doesn't share his true feelings. And he needs to know that THAT's the problem you're having with him.. not that you're afraid he's going to run off with some skimpy piece of ass, but rather that he's locked you out in terms of emotional intimacy, which un-does all of the good work you've done together so far.
Author East of Jupiter Posted August 2, 2007 Author Posted August 2, 2007 ' I think you do, and I also think you know this. This is what I mean about nipping things in the bud. There is no shame to be had in wanting to know about your Hs work life. Especially give your history together. We spend an awful lot of time in our other world (the professional one) and there is no reason why he should omit any part of it. That's opening the channels of trust completely. If you were to to ask him this in a way that is not threatening and that helps him understand that it is not a control thim but simply a way in which it can help you both be stronger friends, he might see it as something positive instead of something scary. I have and I thought he was complying. He was telling me about things at work. I was trying to be the mature one and if he is telling me about work, why would I ask? I have been the most supportive and open I could be with him. I'm done schooling him! He KNOWS that scarier than telling me about his coworkers is me finding out he was lying. He took that chance anyway. What the frig do you do with such a person? He just literally beats his head on the wall for his own stupidity. But what does sorry mean anymore? KWIM? We are not young, newlywed or dealing with his first bout of the stupids. C'mon! Grow up already! So, the only logical answer for me is that he has been lying to himself for so long and I have been allowing him to lie to me for so long, that he beleves his own lies. You know, like not telling me about women he works with does not mean he was laying the ground for future lies. It was not about any of these women. It is about him and what the hell is he thinking? I'm done trying to figure it out. He's on his own.
Author East of Jupiter Posted August 2, 2007 Author Posted August 2, 2007 I totally 'get' that. I'm no longer jealous over mine either. His transgressions weren't nearly as bad as what your husband's were, but bad enough... at least to MY mind... that I let him go in a way. Don't get me wrong, I love him to pieces... but if he wants to go I'm not really in a place where that's gonna bust me up past salvage. It's a weird feeling actually. In alot of ways, I love him more than I ever did. And yet I'm better prepared emotionally for losing him than I ever was too. I think when a man does you wrong, you don't have much choice but to become self-reliant. And even if you take him back, that sense of self-reliance stays with you. It's not like you're emotionally disconnected or anything like that. It's more like you appreciate him more because you don't really need him. All that said... when he disappoints you, the pertinent fact that seems to spring first to mind is... you don't need him. I think all you can do at that point is to remember that you CHOSE to stay in... and to honor your choice as best you can. The "lie by omission" isn't the biggest problem you've got with him obviously. The biggest problem is that he should be able to tell you anything, and for whatever f*cked up reason he's got in his head... he's not doing it. Now, you don't sound like a person who's especially hard to talk to, so that leaves the communications problem as stemming from him. Maybe it's guilt. (????) Not just for what he did in the past, but maybe just something stupid like noticing when a girl is pretty. If it was me, (and I'm assuming your husband IS the nice guy you've said he is, despite his mistakes)... I'd apologize. Now, hear me out... there's a method to my madness. I'd apologize and I'd tell him that I recognize my insecurities and that I felt like I'd overreacted. Then I'd tell him what really freaked me out was to realize that he didn't feel like he could tell me things. I'd remind him of how much we'd already been through to GET to the point where we could talk through anything and everything, and how it hurt me to think that he didn't feel free with me... etc. etc. etc. The apology is, of course, to soften him up and make him feel like you're on equal footing, both having done something wrong as it pertains to the communications process. You need to disarm him. It's worth it... because you need him to talk to you. You need him to tell you 'why' he doesn't feel safe sharing with you. Even if it's something stupid like guilt for noticing a pretty girl... he's leaving you out of his inner circle when he doesn't share his true feelings. And he needs to know that THAT's the problem you're having with him.. not that you're afraid he's going to run off with some skimpy piece of ass, but rather that he's locked you out in terms of emotional intimacy, which un-does all of the good work you've done together so far. Done LJ. I did all of that and opened the door for him to be honest. It's such a stupid lie. Of course he is attracted. And I have NO problem with that. I expect him to be human and we had discussed this ad naseum over the years. Do you really think I'm at home wondering where his eyes are all day? <rhetorically speaking) Give me a break. His response? He denies any attraction whatsoever. Yes, he is feeling guilt but he is not willing to explore why because he says he knows in his heart it was nothing and I don't have to worry. He wants me to just accept his explanation and trust his word. What word? You know he really doesn't leave me with any options. I so appreciate your input. It helps validate that I am doing the right things and to reconsider doing it all over again. <cacadoodo>
IfWishesWereHorses Posted August 2, 2007 Posted August 2, 2007 He is the most wonderful man to me. He cares and shows it. He apologizes and I know in my heart he really hates what he does to me and us. He dotes on me in the smallest of ways. He is kind and thoughtful and ... This is why he is driving me NUTS. I have to constantly reconcile. I have been in denial as I needed to be. We needed time after the past and I really thought he was okay. That's my bad. I knew in my heart that he is not. No man does what he did and can simply snap out of it as he has tried to do. He would argue the womanizer label. This last time he took responsibility. He didn't argue that he isn't a womanizer. He has no answers. That is the bottom line. I can't trust this episode as just immaturity and his avoidance. We have discussed things to the ground and rebuilt from that. His word has to be gold because it was s*it for so long. 14 more days and I can probably blow your mind. There isn't a woman in this world who would believe that life could be better except for ME! When I filed for D, grown men where crying, how could you, you 2 are like 13 year olds that snuck out of the house, YOU TWO are what I wanted to find! DUDE get a grip, I thought I had it!:D:D It can't be both ways, I'm wrestling with it daily. Been there and back again. The problem runs deep!!! Have you contacted LB??? I truly wish you luck. By the bye, don't waste your money on cupie dolls, they don't work!!! J/K! Best of luck honey.
Ladyjane14 Posted August 2, 2007 Posted August 2, 2007 Yes, he is feeling guilt but he is not willing to explore why because he says he knows in his heart it was nothing and I don't have to worry. He wants me to just accept his explanation and trust his word. What word? You know he really doesn't leave me with any options. Well you can always just accept him at his word... with the caveat that he's emotionally STUPID of course. Seriously, I'm gonna leave you with one last thought, then I'm out for the night... In emotional terms, you are an EXTREMELY powerful being. He's got no chance against you. You can spin him on his head like a top if you want. In 25 years of marriage, my husband has been incapable of beating me in an argument. I process emotional data faster than he does.... and let's face it, in comparison to most men, women are like a top-of-the-line blender, with more speeds than a guy ever DREAMED of. What's worse, I'm like a Star Trek Vulcan... immersed in better logic than what he's capable of when confronted with a true emotional crisis. I win. Every time. But what I didn't realize, until there was a real crisis in our marriage, is that if I always win... he must always lose. It left him feeling powerless, and as weird as it sounds, it never occurred to me that he was feeling that way. 25 years, and it never occurred to me what it must feel like to KNOW you're gonna lose going in. His only options were to either avoid confrontation, or to try to out-yell me before I could get a good start. You're too far down the pike to be blowing smoke, hon. Either be 'all in' or 'all out', and if you're "all in"... play smart, not hard.
Author East of Jupiter Posted August 2, 2007 Author Posted August 2, 2007 Well you can always just accept him at his word... with the caveat that he's emotionally STUPID of course. Seriously, I'm gonna leave you with one last thought, then I'm out for the night... In emotional terms, you are an EXTREMELY powerful being. He's got no chance against you. You can spin him on his head like a top if you want. In 25 years of marriage, my husband has been incapable of beating me in an argument. I process emotional data faster than he does.... and let's face it, in comparison to most men, women are like a top-of-the-line blender, with more speeds than a guy ever DREAMED of. What's worse, I'm like a Star Trek Vulcan... immersed in better logic than what he's capable of when confronted with a true emotional crisis. I win. Every time. But what I didn't realize, until there was a real crisis in our marriage, is that if I always win... he must always lose. It left him feeling powerless, and as weird as it sounds, it never occurred to me that he was feeling that way. 25 years, and it never occurred to me what it must feel like to KNOW you're gonna lose going in. His only options were to either avoid confrontation, or to try to out-yell me before I could get a good start. You're too far down the pike to be blowing smoke, hon. Either be 'all in' or 'all out', and if you're "all in"... play smart, not hard. I'll have to think on this. Thank you. You are very right he doesn't stand a chance with me. But I'm tired of smart. Maybe I will get untired. Or I will be all out. I don't see being "all in" as a good alternative for me right now. Not without some action from him.
burning 4 revenge Posted August 2, 2007 Posted August 2, 2007 Oh I love pity parties They make me want to wear black lipstick and put on Joy Division. Pity Party would be an excellent name for a restaurant or a mortuary. Or some amalgam of the two
Author East of Jupiter Posted August 2, 2007 Author Posted August 2, 2007 Oh I love pity parties They make me want to wear black lipstick and put on Joy Division. Pity Party would be an excellent name for a restaurant or a mortuary. Or some amalgam of the two Great ideas. Just as Burning for Revenge would make a great name for a cigar. hahaahaha Well we can't just name it Monica can we? I have in mind a smokeshopt named Butt Head Bonnies. Named after a smoker I worked with. Ah, yah. She was a Butt Head. One night..... driving through a strange town in the wee hours of the night at around 10mph due to fog so think you could cut with a knife ... we needed to stop but the only place we came across... we drove for miles not seeing anything. Then in the middle of nowhere appearing out of the fog was ... "The Bloody Boar's Head" Having just watchined American Vampire in London ... we decided to pee in the bushes instead.
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