The spanking debate.

[love necessity]

not to mention you drink a lot!! right??

[tinktronik]

I wouldn't know what that's like to be honest. However, I would simply explain that to your children, and to you ex.

 

When I read your post it read to me like this:

 

"While they may not need to follow the rules OF house number 1, you will need to follow them here"

 

It should read, and be explained like this:

 

"You may not have to follow the rules when your at "__________", BUT you will follow MY rules when you're here"

I just explain to them that there are rules here and they are expect them to be followed . period.

 

But htere is nothing I can get to get Dad to set the same rules.

[love necessity]

Hopefully your son is as forgiving as I am...Maybe he won't end up resenting you, but look at it from my point of view. You had problems in the past with your father and just couldn't seem to get over them, so you did what you knew--after all, being physical was what you knew.

[Moose]

it seems like you got defensive because I corrected you..

 

I am always willingly to accept advice from people, just like I LOVE to give it. But, it's a different thing, when someone is telling me what kind of person I am and are so certain, but couldn't pick me out of a crowd of three.

Glass houses......

[tinktronik]

not to mention you drink a lot!! right??

what???Did I miss something?

\

[Moose]

Hopefully your son is as forgiving as I am...Maybe he won't end up resenting you, but look at it from my point of view. You had problems in the past with your father and just couldn't seem to get over them, so you did what you knew--after all, being physical was what you knew.

There's no hoping about it. He realized he crossed the line, and understood that he needed to be corrected. We are, and have been the best of friends since.

what???Did I miss something?

I don't think so.....I'm an alcoholic, so naturally people ASSUME I drink alot.....

[love necessity]

 

Glass houses......

 

Tue shay!!

[fly_gurl]

spank em' or theyll run all over you

[sunshinegirl]

Tinktronik, you sound like a very responsible, caring parent.

 

I don't have any advice, as I don't have any kids of my own! But I will say that I'm of two minds on the spanking debate.

 

As an aunt to four nephews, I am rarely in a discipline mode with them, though when I am I use their own parents' discipline methods - time outs, etc. Which usually works. Only once have I ever spanked one of my nephews; it was when he was about 3 years old and was in a little terror phase. The particular night I babysat him, he had been warned by his parents before they left of the consequences of his bad behavior (he'd been a holy terror all day); I did the whole escalation thing and warned him several times that he was headed for a spanking. He was in a pushing limits mode so inevitably we wound up at the spanking phase. When I did it, it was traumatic for both of us. It's for that reason that I hope to avoid spanking my own kids if/when I have them.

 

But quite honestly, I was spanked on occasion as a kid. I also got grounded, had my mouth washed out with soap, lost privileges, etc. as other forms of punishment. When mom spanked me (and it was only mom, never ever my dad - he's never laid a hand on me), she was always very measured about it. She had a wooden paddle on top of the fridge (helpfully labeled the "board of education"), and when I was busted and about to get a spanking, there was a whole ritual involved: we went to my bedroom, I had to lay on my stomach across mom's lap, and she delivered a set number of whacks on my (covered!) bottom that stung, but never bruised or broke skin. I would then have to stay in my room and think about what I'd done, and I think I had to apologize for it when I was ready to come downstairs. Mom was usually upset herself about doing it ("it hurts me to do this more than it hurts you"), but she never did it in a burst of anger.

 

As I got older, that form of punishment simply became humiliating - I grew taller than my mom and was somehow still expected to prostate myself across her lap? Uh, no. So mom left spanking behind as punishment when I was in, what, junior high - 12 years old or so.

 

The point is, I have not suffered any lasting torment or trauma from corporal punishments I received as a kid. I knew I had crossed lines, and I definitely did not repeat the offense that led to the spanking.

[ICallsEmAsISeesEm]

With all due respect Love Necessity, you're only 21 years old. You don't have children so you don't speak from experience. We were ALL children at one time, so your experience as a child doesn't make you any more of an expert than any of the adults here who are actually dealing with real life discipline problems. And having taken a psyche class or two in college, and having had some experience being around kids is hardly preparation for real parenthood. What kids learn in college - then come out and learn in the REAL world - are usually two totally different things. You'll find that out one day like all college kids eventually do.

 

And yes, I was spanked as a child and guess what? I knew there were consequences to my bad behavior so I thought twice before acting out. And if I had a fresh mouth, I knew I was in deep trouble. To this DAY I show respect to my mother but not out of fear, it's out of knowing she won't STAND for disrespect and showed me that long ago.

 

What I see today with this passive parenting is a bunch of kids out of control. Disrespectful, spoiled, demanding, and very unpleasant to be around. Back when I was growing up, we didn't hear on the news practically EVERY DAY how teenagers are being shot by other teenagers, how kids are being raped and killed and burned alive and tortured by other kids, how kids are going to their own schools or colleges and shooting their classmates and teachers, all the constant nonsense about gangs and colors and knives and guns and drive-bys, and so on and so forth. That was NOT an everyday occurence when I was growing up. But it sure is NOW.

 

Why are so many of today's kids acting like a bunch of undisciplined animals? There are many reasons (such as the moral breakdown of society over the last 20 years and "God" all of sudden becoming a dirty word, etc., but we won't go into that here). But I would bet passive - and non-existing parenting - is one of the reasons.

 

Just my humble opinion.

[babydoll6]

I am a SAHM mom of 4 with a husband of 15yrs....I will tell you from my experience....I have 3 boys and 1 girl. My girl is by far harder than the boys...But with that said my two older boys do the very same things your three do..I have at times had to lock myself in my room, because of there fighting..Now mine are older (13,10)..So it has evolved into actual fighting...

 

...I am an old school mom and do not spare the rod when it is needed.. If my children are in the car, they know very well if their fightiing and bickering puts us in danger by interfering with my capabilities to operate the car, car gets pulled over kids get slapped if telling them to stop doesn't work the FIRST time..I have only had to pull my car over twice in the last fewyrs. Because they understand I am watching out for their safety and their fighting has consequences.

 

So back to spanking. I have read this thread for the most part and the OP has got some really great advice here, however I must say that to assume that spanking your child will make them resent you, will make them grow up and dis-like...To say it is their(childrens) job to forgive their parent for discipling them. I am appauld.

 

My children walk into a restuarant and I get comments on how well behaved they are. It's not because they are afraid they will get spanked, it is only because they have been taught RESPECT for other people. So to pawn it off on they are afraid is well, just that pawning...When you spank your child when he/she has done something (car incident for instance) they learn to respect boundries, rules and other people..

 

I rarely have to spank my children, why because I have taught them to respect others since they could walk.

 

To the Op..I really do understand where you are coming from. I hated the thought of spanking my child at first because my mom never once spared the rod. I hated it, but when I became a parent and ran into ...well it's allow themselves to hurt each other, or someone else, or spank them for their actions if telling the to stop the first time didn't work..

 

Good luck, this is not an easy time period, but it does get easier...

[Jinnah]

The problem in this society today is that kids are spoiled nowadays. They feel a sense of entitlement, the parents feel like they have to be popular with their children, and the kids in return are getting out of control. I am not saying this in reference to the OP... I am saying this in response to the advice love necessity is giving. I realize that you say you have wisdom in "child" psychology, but a few classes doesn't make you an expert. Plus as another poster mentioned, so many "philosophies" are later found to be just plain dumb advice. I think that you gave good tips on disciplining children, but that doesn't work for EVERY child, which is something you have to realize. You might be wondering, "who does she think she is?!" Well, I am qualified to be a preschool teacher and will be continuing my education to become an elementary school teacher soon. I have worked in preschools, have extensive baby-sitting experience, have run a home daycare, and I have three children. I have realized that every child is different and that different techniques may need to be applied.

 

I know that even medical doctors have agreed that spanking in some circumstances (when someone is in danger for example), when done in the appropriate way, can be effective. The OP cannot let her kids hurt each other and this might be something she should consider. I am not talking about abusive spanking either. She stated that Texas law allows this, and it does. Schools in Texas are still allowed to paddle the students if they feel it is necessary, and their student handbooks even state as much. CPS will not get involved for spanking a child in a state where spanking is allowed if it is not done in an abusive manner.

 

If you think about "old fashioned" times, you will notice that kids were a lot better behaved... probably because the kids did "healthily fear" their parents... they were afraid to upset/disappoint their parents, did not want to be punished, and above all RESPECTED their parents. Today, a lot of kids just really don't care. I bet if parents reverted to the old way of doing things, which might include an occasional spanking, kids would also behave properly again.

 

P.S. I do not spank my kids, but at this point I do not find it helpful in MY situation. Kids have many different temperaments, some need it (sometimes) and some do not. I believe in letting each individual parent decide for themselves as long as it does not become abusive, and the OP does not strike me as the type to abuse her children.

 

You do not have to agree; that is fine. No need to pick a fight, as I am not interested.

[Jinnah]

With all due respect Love Necessity, you're only 21 years old. You don't have children so you don't speak from experience. We were ALL children at one time, so your experience as a child doesn't make you any more of an expert than any of the adults here who are actually dealing with real life discipline problems. And having taken a psyche class or two in college, and having had some experience being around kids is hardly preparation for real parenthood. What kids learn in college - then come out and learn in the REAL world - are usually two totally different things. You'll find that out one day like all college kids eventually do.

 

And yes, I was spanked as a child and guess what? I knew there were consequences to my bad behavior so I thought twice before acting out. And if I had a fresh mouth, I knew I was in deep trouble. To this DAY I show respect to my mother but not out of fear, it's out of knowing she won't STAND for disrespect and showed me that long ago.

 

What I see today with this passive parenting is a bunch of kids out of control. Disrespectful, spoiled, demanding, and very unpleasant to be around. Back when I was growing up, we didn't hear on the news practically EVERY DAY how teenagers are being shot by other teenagers, how kids are being raped and killed and burned alive and tortured by other kids, how kids are going to their own schools or colleges and shooting their classmates and teachers, all the constant nonsense about gangs and colors and knives and guns and drive-bys, and so on and so forth. That was NOT an everyday occurence when I was growing up. But it sure is NOW.

 

Why are so many of today's kids acting like a bunch of undisciplined animals? There are many reasons (such as the moral breakdown of society over the last 20 years and "God" all of sudden becoming a dirty word, etc., but we won't go into that here). But I would bet passive - and non-existing parenting - is one of the reasons.

 

Just my humble opinion.

 

 

LOL. sorry, IcallemasIseesem, I didn't read your post before I posted... I wanted to respond after reading everything a certain poster said and did not finish reading everyone else's. I guess we think alike!

[Kenyth]

Some punishments can be a bit "creative". Boredom and tedium are your best friends with children around age eight.

 

Ideas I've used that worked wonders!

 

Further his education! Set him up with the dictionary, some paper, and a list of words. Have him write out the definitions for the words before going to bed. Or have him read some of the bible and do a book report. Don't let a little thing like bedtime get in his way either. A little fatigue might help calm him down. If he tries to sleep at the table, take away the chair.

 

Help his diet and make sure he gets enough vitamins and minerals! Prepare a healthy dinner of 100% yummy green vegetables like spinach, zucchini, turnips, beets, etc. for dinner. No getting up until the plate is clean! Once again, don't let bedtime be a huge factor here.

 

Work on posture! Simply have him stand facing a corner with hands behind the back. Make sure he is far enough away where he can't lean on the wall. Make it for a fair period of time until he is visibly uncomfortable. Make sure you are nearby and keep on him about standing still, keeping his hands behind his back, staying off the wall, etc.

[Ladyjane14]

I spanked mine. Between the ages of 4 and 8, there were times when their reasoning skills were just too under-developed for them to accept my authority. I never had to do it more than a handful of times either, as I reserved it for the last resort.

 

The procedure I used was to turn them over my knee, bare their little rumps, and swat them with the flat of my hand until the skin was just stinging. If necessary I would lock down their legs between my knees and I always raised my pinky finger, (like an aristocrat drinking tea), in order to keep from making any kind of bruising contact.

 

To my mind, spanking isn't about hurting a kid... it's about teaching him that there are forces in the world which are BIGGER than he is. The lesson is that unless you watch where you tread, somebody might just come along, pick you up and wear your ass out.

And... I think there's fairness in that lesson, because even as adults, in the real world, there's always something that's bigger and tougher than we are, so we have to use our heads and BE SMART in our actions.

 

Even at the ages of 2 and 3, I used a similar method... and again only once or twice and only during implacable tantrums. I picked it up in a parenting magazine and basically it requires immobilizing the child, no spanking. The parent puts the child on his/her lap, with the child's legs astraddle the waist and his arms locked gently under the parents arms. A heavy quilt over the shoulder will hopefully prevent biting. Then.. you just wait out the tantrum.

 

It's unpleasant, but it's the same lesson... "I'm bigger than you and you have to do what I say." Again, I think it's a fair lesson for a kid to learn. There ARE some things in this world bigger and more powerful than he is.

 

Today, my kids are head and shoulders taller than me, and I really don't think they remember exactly WHY they mind me like they do... but they do mind me.

[halfarock]

I never spanked my kids. They are now 22 and 23 and I’ve never had problems with them discipline wise. Both are well mannered and responsible and on track building a successful life.

 

When I was a kid my parents regularly spanked me and my siblings. I always thought that spanking was wrong and because of it have never had anything more than an arms length relationship with my parents. I never talked to them about anything out of fear that I would be ridiculed or punished which was more likely than not a spanking. It seems that I always knew right from wrong and the punishments that I usually got had nothing to do with right or wrong but rather a method to try to force me be who I wasn’t.

 

I’ve adopted the rule that one doesn’t hit those that they love, for any reason.

 

When my kids were growing up, it always seemed that those parents that were all into God and morality and all that crap and never spared the rod - their children seemed to always obey but they only though of right or wrong as what one would get punished for or not, never any higher level of thought on the subject.

 

In my house there never where any real rules - not in the normal sense. There was always the insistence that one treat others respectably. I always made a game out of the chores and my children were always willing to play along. I never vacuumed; they were always on it, vacuuming being a game of sorts.

 

I talked to them always about a whole range of subjects without passing judgment on what they might say. If I thought that they were wrong on something I would present them with arguments to the contrary - even when they were very young. I never talked down to them as many parents do. Others would complain about me being too much of a friend to my children. But my children have always offered me a great deal of respect, always came to me for advice, and I can’t recall ever when they tried to deceive me.

 

That we are such a close family has probably kept my kids in line more than anything. I lead by example and have always been honorable enough in their eyes that they’ve set their own standards high enough so as to never be a disappointment to me and they never have been.

 

 

To my mind, spanking isn't about hurting a kid... it's about teaching him that there are forces in the world which are BIGGER than he is. The lesson is that unless you watch where you tread, somebody might just come along, pick you up and wear your ass out…

 

It's unpleasant, but it's the same lesson... "I'm bigger than you and you have to do what I say." Again, I think it's a fair lesson for a kid to learn. There ARE some things in this world bigger and more powerful than he is.

It teaches them that the toughest guy rules. You don’t have to be right, just be the biggest bully. Our country is currently at war precisely because of this mindset, might makes right.

 

Raising children should be about teaching them to be functioning, honorable, sociable people. It should not be about controlling them.

[tinktronik]

Everything you had to say there was very nice .In a perfect dynamic this is how my children would be raised ; however I do not have a perfect dynamic. Im just not sure what standards a 5 year old boy understands , expectation is one thing but when the dynamic is scewed by 3 boys who vibrate with energy very often right smack into each other it is dificult for them to remember to respect each other.

We do discuss things rationally with our children, and I don't think passing judement is even feasible at their ages .

Again though, with 3 boys sometimes they MUST be controlled , with them being this close in age, losing control of them means misbehvior possibly resulting in injuring each other , that is not acceptable in my home .

 

I think either you got very very lucky in the temperment of your children or that the wool is very thick over your eyes.

[Ladyjane14]

I lead by example and have always been honorable enough in their eyes that they’ve set their own standards high enough so as to never be a disappointment to me and they never have been.

 

Does that mean they don't know about your penchant for banging married women? Or does it mean that they do know and still find it to be "honorable"?

 

Frankly, I'm surprised that a guy with such an active social life had so much time to single-handedly raise such solid citizens. Kudos to you and yours.

 

 

It teaches them that the toughest guy rules. You don’t have to be right, just be the biggest bully. Our country is currently at war precisely because of this mindset, might makes right.

 

I think we'll have to just agree to disagree there. Certainly, the parenting forum isn't the best place for sharing political views, and to be honest... if you believe there's nothing out there tougher than you, I think that's a bit naive.

 

Raising children should be about teaching them to be functioning, honorable, sociable people. It should not be about controlling them.

 

While I'll agree that the goal is "functioning, honorable, sociable" people... children aren't born with "functioning, honorable, sociable" skills. Brains continue to grow and develop as the child does. In my view, I took on the task of providing "control" when I became a parent. Children learn self-control, they aren't graced with it from birth.

 

Your method worked for you... fabulous. That's good news for your kids. But my method has worked just fine for me and mine. I'm just sharing it with the OP, who did ask for information on this subject afterall.

[reddog63]

Halfarock wrote.....

 

I’ve adopted the rule that one doesn’t hit those that they love, for any reason.

 

 

I also adopted a rule............one does spank a child you love when it is necessary............

[Ladyjane14]

My last post was pissy and I withdraw it, with apologies to Halfarock and the board at large. :o:o

It was undignified, off-topic, and unwarranted.

(I'll make sure to have my coffee first before posting next time. )

 

This is is the only part I would leave if I were able to edit:

While I'll agree that the goal is "functioning, honorable, sociable" people... children aren't born with "functioning, honorable, sociable" skills. Brains continue to grow and develop as the child does. In my view, I took on the task of providing "control" when I became a parent. Children learn self-control, they aren't graced with it from birth.

[PollyIvy]

Hi Tinktronik, I have the exact same lineup as you do: 3 boys aged 5, 6, and 8. Weird, huh!

 

I have found that other people who :

a) have 1 or 2 children

b) have their children spaced 3-4 years apart or more

c) have girls

...do NOT understand what it is like at my house.

 

I adore my boys, they are The Cutest Things in the World, but they are TOTALLY WILD. The 3 of them are in cahoots all of the time, being so close in age, and they are always up to something naughty. It is damn hard work and I feel like a drill sargent sometimes just trying to keep them in line.

 

I do smack my children sometimes. It GETS their ATTENTION. They HATE it. Once I've done it, I can threaten another smack and they BELIEVE it's coming if they don't behave. My talking, talking, talking: it's like water off a duck's back with them: NO effect.

 

I have been doing '1, 2, 3 timeout' since the eldest (Mr. Wild) was 4. If they come out before I announce that they can come out, they get a smack. The threat keeps them in their timeout. I haven't smacked an 'escapee's bottom for months, actually.

 

If 2 or all 3 get in trouble at the same time, they compare notes on what each one 'got'. They are so high-spirited that everything is funny. At least the 1st and 2nd have learned this: when mommy is angry, it is NOT funny. (and it took me years to drill that into their heads!)

 

Just wanted to say that a rough little gang of boys sometimes requires slightly rougher handling, and if the love, affection, warmth and fun is there along with the limits, rules, expectations, cause-and-effect punishments, and occasional smacks, then I reckon that is just fine.

[PollyIvy]

I also have 2 brothers and raised by a single mom, we got a little rowdy and whenever we got spankings we knew we deserved it.

[MrsHellnoFire]

I was far from spoiled-- very far from.....I have been living own my own since I was 16 yrs old and managed to make a wonderful life for myself, and taking care of myself ever since. My mother had an addiction, and she was very poor at parenting. I can remember going days without a decent meal, or sleeping in the dark because she didn't pay the light bill, or sleeping on the floor because we lived in a shack with no furniture. Like I said, I was far from being spoiled. I would've appreciated just staying in the same school for more than 1/2 year, but we moved like 20 times b/c she kept getting evicted for non-payment of rent.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Hitting your child does in fact, cause stress and anxiety, why don't you look it up at wikipedia.com before you go giving advice on something your so blind too...

 

 

Wow, you don't know how to give advice, and you are so wrong.

I don't blame my mother...I still love her---from a distance. I have tried helping my mother on several occasions after I got my stuff together, but she doesn't want to change and will always be the person she is today. "Heartless"......I have tried, even after all the stuff I have been through with her, I tried. I tried because I know she had problems. She didn't have the best childhood and I understand that, I understand that completely. She didn't know how to love, because she wasn't loved as a child. There were men she ran too that treated her like garbage, but she didn't know how to hold a relationship with people, because she wasn't given that opportunity in life. I understand my mother completely, and I did still want to be apart of her life and I forgave her, but she hasn't forgiven herself, so there's not much I can do. She's depressed, but doesn't want help.

 

So, silktricks, before you go giving advice makes sure it's accurate please..Because you don't know me from adam..

 

And I have a wonderful life now, I'm happy I went through the things I went through because it has made me a less selfish person with a huge heart. I am more understanding than ever, and I am very independent.

 

Your stance is based on negative experience with actions that were very much excessive.

 

You have to understand that there is a huge difference between being spanked and abused (which you yourself were subjected to).

 

When you are being physically abused and shown no love etc as in your situation, it makes a difference from being spanked and loved.

 

I was actually whipped with a belt sporadically on the bottom as a child. It kept me in line and did not cause any emotional harm in the long-term because everything else was pretty benign and I was shown love on a daily basis. I never resented anyone for it either or considered my childhood anything other than "normal". This is probably due to the fact that spanking was a common practice back then.

 

An arguement can be made that having ANY privileges taken away causes "stress and anxiety" as well as having any arguments in the household. There is not much in life that doesn't cause stress and anxiety.. doesn't mean you neglect all of your parental responsibilities for fear that your child will break like a china doll. Children are much more resilient. A spank will not hurt.