Sevenmack Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 If you're going to play detective, Flex, hire a real one; he can do the job without causing suspicion. Before you do that, you need to decide whether you want to salvage the marriage or toss it asunder. Because if you do recon, you will find out plenty -- all of it that you don't want to know and none of it coming from her mouth. If you want to salvage the relationship, you must confront her and make it clear that this carousing with the other man (and she is carousing with him, don't think otherwise) is unacceptable. She must drop the relationship and then, go into counseling with you. By doing so, you're giving her the option to actually work things out. But if you want to end it -- and in all honesty, I'd recommend that you do so because she's too far gone, in my opinion -- then hire a P.I., then a lawyer and a locksmith. If you're going to go all the way, go all the way.
Author flex Posted July 10, 2007 Author Posted July 10, 2007 We have already talked about it and she has told me she cut off going to lunch with him and emailing him. I have no evidence she has done either since. The concert thing that is coming up was planned a little while back, and we are not meeting with them ahead of time as originally planned just unfortunatley going to sit next to them. The hard part if she works with him, they are in the same dept, they work on the same projects, there is nothing i can do about that. That contact is not going away. She says that is the only contact she has with him at this point. I am trying to believe her. Everything I have found so far is stuff that occurred before I confronted her, some of it I am just finding out about now. I am thinking about the recorder in the car. Worried it will make some kind of noise or something and it would tip her off. I may try it anyway.
Cobra_X30 Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 Truth is that I have never used one... but I read a post once where a guys wife had a company phone. So he put a recorder in her car and caught her that way. You may want to just hit up the local spy supply store. She isnt a Yankee fan is she?
Sevenmack Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 That's not true. She can change jobs, ask for a new assignment, all the other things we do when a work situation isn't tolerable for one reason or another. She can also minimize contact with him if she so chooses. There are people with whom I work who I haven't talked to in months. It's not that hard. But at this point, Flex, it seems that you don't trust that she'll end things. She probably won't. Affairs tend to take months to end, as most breakups do. And if she's only doing it to appease you, then it won't end at all. As I've written earlier, you either have to choose to go all the way with the spywork and be prepared to divorce her. Or you have to work it out and stop the spying. It's one of those either-or situations from which you can't get away. All the best to you.
jmargel Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 We have been working on our marriage for about a month or so now. How? She is being deceitful and your are playing detective. Sounds like you are in the parent/child relationship. You are trying to catch your child red-handed. For a marriage to work you both need to be on the adult level. You will not be able to resolve this between yourselves, you need to see a marriage counselor. And she can change what contact she has with him. She could quit her job, goto another department or a multitiude of other things. She has to consider what is more important. Her marriage and your feeelings or her work/contact with this other man. Though it's like keeping an alcoholic away from the booze. That's not how you cure them. At some point you'll slip, let off your guard and they'll get away and start drinking again. You need to get to the root of this problem, not just pluck the leaves off this weed, it'll just grow back. Find out WHY this is happening. Finding the solution to this will secure you that this will stop for good.
Natural Cat Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 I am thinking about the recorder in the car. Worried it will make some kind of noise or something and it would tip her off. I may try it anyway. While it may be illegal to intercept audio conversations without consent, there are ways to capture conversations on your home phone without her knowing. I know a guy who knows a guy who worked in the phone business. Not all phone outlets are visible. His friend attached a mini-digital recorder to a little known/seen jack, set to record upon dial tone and found out more than he needed to know. He erased everything he heard, but it confirmed his gut suspicions. The hard part if she works with him, they are in the same dept, they work on the same projects, there is nothing i can do about that. That contact is not going away. She says that is the only contact she has with him at this point. I agree with the others. She can CHOOSE to minimize contact with him, change jobs, etc...You can't be there to police the looks they give each other. My wife continued to work with her OM after I exposed their A. He eventually found another job and left. I f*&ing hated it. My wife minimized contact until he was gone and told me of any daily interaction, but it sucked nonetheless.
Author flex Posted July 10, 2007 Author Posted July 10, 2007 Well I did get a recording device. Man its small and all digital so no worries about a tape running out and making that nice loud "click" sound. Anyway. Going to experiment with it in my car and take it from there. God I hate doing this, but I can not be everywhere and I need answers. Not worried about the legality of it, don't think i would use it as divorce evidence. just looking for my own need to know. If something turns up on the tape at least then I will know that I am making the right decision either way, or at least a better informed decision. Hopefully it finds nothing and this little purchase was a waste of money.
child_of_isis Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 My mom used one of those. And man did it work well. She found out things she wasn't even capable of thinking. Leave the house often and give her plenty of chances to use the phone. Keep us updated.
Author flex Posted July 10, 2007 Author Posted July 10, 2007 UGGHHH why can't I keep things in check sometimes. Just ended up getting into a big todo with her about all this. I REALLY was not prepared and did not want to get into it until I had something more. Basically the is an old ex coworker that is coing to town and a bunch of them are planning to go to dinner when he is in town. So she was like oh you don't mind me going right and I said kind of a 1/2 hearted no its fine and then she said he is not going to be their most likely and even if he was you don't have anything to worry about we were just friends. Well that led into me getting REALLY pissed again and next thing you know we are digging through all the issues again. She still maintains and swears they were friends, she does continue to admit it may have been innapropriate in that she was talking with him all day at work that it may have interfered with our relationship to some extent. She admits she did not see that until I pointed it out and she maintains she has not been out to lunch or emailed him since. She still states she wants NOTHING more than for us to straighten this all out, that she wants the marriage to last and it means more to her than anything. She feels the last couple of weeks have been fantastic and she feels so much closer to me. She realizes that the emails look bad and really understands how I could read into them the way I am. She still also claims that how her whole dept talks to each other, saying ya HR would probably have us all in trouble but to get through the day we try and have fun claiming they are all into the show the Offfice and because of that they all just really say innapropriate things. Of course she continues to express frustration that I can't seem to get past this. So I basically said deal with it. I can't get over this in a couple of weeks, if that is too frustrating for her sorry. I need some time and space to digest all of this. The thing that sucks is I do have nothing concrete, I have a bunch of things that when put together could be seen as a bumch of different things. The two of us ARE in agreement the relationship was at least in some ways innapropriate. At this point it is how far it went that it the issue. I sometimes don't think she realizes she was as involved as I think she was. If nothing physical happened maybe she still does not truly see how emotional involved she was. I don't know. I struggle with all this because I want it to work out. It would be much easier if I did not. As hard as it still would be I want to believe it never went physical. I have proof of an EA but no real proof of a PA. Sorry I continue to ramble. Don't know why it helps writing this down at all but I think it has become my way to pick some of this put of my brain with others that understand my frustration.
Sevenmack Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 Of course she continues to express frustration that I can't seem to get past this. And why should you get past this? She's cheating on you, no matter what she says, and she's probably done it before; cheaters tend not to get caught the first time around. At this point, she deserves little benefit of the doubt. She's basically belittling your feelings about the matter. This is a no-go. If she wants things to work out, she has to be willing to deal with the full wreckage -- and consequences -- of her behavior. Apparently she can't do so. At this point, Flex, my advice would be to hire a P.I. -- he's going to be a professional at all this -- and hire the divorce lawyer and locksmith too. She's just not interested in working things out.
Bryanp Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 Flex, If the roles were reversed how do you think she would be acting? She seems very self-centered and does not seem to care that her actions are hurting you. You judge a person by their actions and not by their words.
JustBreathe Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 Flex, my heart does go out to you as I remember, like many of us do, being in the same position. Your gut is screaming at you that something is not right, yet she is saying you have nothing to worry about. You begin to question your own sanity, whether you are a little crazy or something. Stop bringing the subject off because if she is in an affair, they will cool things off a bit, be more careful for a while until the heat is off. What would happen should you offer to join them for dinner? Say you want to meet her friends? Have you done this? If all is innocent, she should have no objection. I went to a function with his "friend from work" and a bunch of other people from his job once. The vibes between them were very strong. She even asked him if he was going to drive her home. I was soooooo clueless. After I found out, he said he dumped her immediately. To this day, I don't believe him. I think they went underground and waited a little while then resumed their "romance". He left me for four months and I think it was then he made his choice and came back to me and the kids and it was then the affair was over for good. So... don't tip her off. It will only send her into stealth mode. Is Mr. Pants married? If so, perhaps a conversation with his wife might be in order here? Just a thought, I don't know what I'd do in your situation except stop talking about it, give her rope and see if she hangs herself. I hope I am wrong and they are just friends... but I don't think I am... if nobody's gonna see them, why go out and buy sexy underwear? I don't think women do that. I don't unless I'm planning a big time seduction.
Lynna Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 I see a major issue here, the issue is not is/was your wife having an affair, but can you trust your wife? Yes, there was an attraction there; and, yes, there was inappropriate behavior. The nature of that behavior seems to be in doubt, was it just flirting or was there physical activity? You have a major problem - if there was not an affair and if she has truly stopped her inappropriate behavior with this guy, then you are not going to find anything, ever. However, if there was an affair and if it is over, then once again, you may never find anything ever. Obviously these two scenarios are dramatically different. The big problem is, if there really was no affair, and you keep digging and doubting, are you going to drive yourself crazy and/or drag your marriage apart? Have you tried marriage counseling? You yourself admitted that you have had problems in the past, that you were drifting apart, that you have different interests and both spend your free time in the same house but doing different things. You should consider counseling to find out what is at the root of these problems. You could also address your concerns and try and get full disclosure from her. It really sounds to me like she is trying to make an effort. I know you are getting a lot of comments that are sure that this was a full PA, personally, from what you have said, I am really not sure about that. It seems to me that she would be coming up with a lot more excuses to work late or be out of the house if there really was more going on. It is very easy to get caught up in inappropriate flirting and behavior at work - I have seen it happen SO many times. But there are fewer instances where that goes to PA. Oh it does happen, and can take place completely at work during work hours. But rumors fly quickly in work places where women and men get too close, since you have a good friend there, I am sure they would have eventually heard something. You are going to this concert and will be able to see how they interact with each other. That will be a clue to you whether there is anything still going on. I certainly cannot tell you whether there was or was not a PA. What I can say is that you are tearing yourself up with the doubting. And if there was not a PA, you will never find anything and will have to get beyond that doubt and back to trusting. If you can't do that then for your own sake you will have to move on. Just another viewpoint to consider.
Darth Vader Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 Have we done this before?? :D:D Yes, you are right...from my experience. That is exactly the best way. The only unfortunate thing is if a fellow worker happens upon them at the wrong time. And yes, that is how someone would verify that this was truly a couple. Flex, do you know of any workers at her place that may be helpful? No WAY! That's where I draw the line!But, let's just say, I've heard people talk, and oooohhh yes, people talk! Now I personally haven't seen anything, like two people in a dark tinted vehicle, but the thing about going to lunch, and coming back with no lunch, I've seen it first hand! I know, not enough to base something solid on, but hey, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck! The Bible states to abstain from the appearence of evil....... Well, plenty of evil going on in cases like these. Thanks for answering the questions.
Darth Vader Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 Hey Guys, No my wife does not have tinted windows and neither does he. I do know two of her coworkers. One I know VERY well she was actually best friends with him growing up and after we got married he became my friend. She does not see him at all, which is strange since they work 4 floors apart. I was thinking of talking to him, but that relationship hits a little to close to home, it runs the potential of all of our issues going public amonst friends, family etc. There is another sort of friend of mine that is VERY close to the action. He is friends with one of my best friends and we also were friendly a few years back. He actually works in her (and OM) dept and is friends with my wife. She uses him as another point to try and tell me there is nothing going on with this guy. She has said, wouldn't be really dumb to do something like since blank go to tell blank or you immediately. I was honestly thinking of calling this guy up and trying to ask him some q's, but honestly at this point he is much better friends with my wife and I am not completely sure he would not say anything to her. It would also be very awkward to call up someone I am "kinda" friends with and ask, "Hey so do you think my wife is having an affair with so and so?" If I get desperate he may be an avenue to explore but it comes with some serious risks. I am trying to lay low, as hard as that is especially when I need to appear I am really trying to work on the relationship. I am checking her voicemail at work and so far have not come across anything. This weekend we are going away so there is no chance they will see each other, so I am thinking about trying to get to her office Friday around lunch and see if I catch her going to lunch with him. I figure if there is something going Friday is probably a day they would go to lunch. Its going to be hard though, not sure how I keep her from seeing my car, and if I get caught, ugh. At this point her email account seems useless to me, either they really did stop emailing like she said or they have found another way to communicate, I have not seen evidence of that at this point though. I am rather good around a computer so I got things sewn up pretty tightly at this point. If she uses one of the computers to communicate I will find out. This sucks. I HATE feeling like this!!! And if you get caught, say you wanna take her to lunch! Make sure you have the money for it though.........
Darth Vader Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 How? She is being deceitful and your are playing detective. Sounds like you are in the parent/child relationship. You are trying to catch your child red-handed. For a marriage to work you both need to be on the adult level. That's the problem, if she wants to bang this OM, and not work on her marriage, then she's gonna do that, It takes two in any relationship. My point is, he could stop what he's doing, work on the marriage, and while he's stopped in finding out the truth, she's screwing this OM! If his Gut is screaming, it's probably right!
Cobra_X30 Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 Flex, I think Lynna has a good point there. Here is the deal. It seems like up to this point you have played the nice guy in your M. You know where nice guys finish right? My recomendation is to play dirty. Find every single method of communication she has and tap it. Key loggers and the whole bit. Drop by her work once a week or so and "suprise" take her out to lunch. Give her the rope she needs to hang herself. Face it, you cant tell what she has done to this point. If you give her space she will show her cards. It sounds like your W is very self centered. These women often cheat because they can, not because of anything you do or dont do. She needs to realize consequences. You may need to make her understand deep down to her core that you will bring Hell on earth into her life if she cheats on you. Trust me with self centered women you absolutely cannot play nice, they will eat you alive, and only respond to real in your face consequences. Good Luck.
Sal Paradise Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 Tell your wife that if she doesn't change jobs and cut off all contact the marriage is over. And don't go to the damn concert. Why go you will only be miserable. Stop letting her walk all over you and make the decisions.
Author flex Posted July 11, 2007 Author Posted July 11, 2007 Well what an exhausting night it was last night. I think maybe it was a good night at least from getting her to realize what she did and how wrong it was. We had a VERY long conversation about everything. Our past talks were more arguments and I am not good at getting things across well when I am pissed off. Last night I calmly raid the whole thing out for her from my perspective. First off the evening started in a way that I thought completely was to confirm my worst suspicions. She got a new phone last week that allows her on the internet. I have been worried about this since I have both our laptops locked down pretty well to monitor things, so this was going to screw me in that regard. So she got home and went swimming with the kids. I checked her phone and found out she had set up a new email account. I was so pissed off. I figure ok, here is her way to communicate. So I figured out her new password in all of 30 seconds and figured by the end of the night I would have the info I needed. I figured at least one email from him would come in and that would be it. Well to my surprise a little later on she told me she set up a new email account and told me what it was and what the password was in case I wanted to check it. She set it up because her new one had better integration with her phone, I actually suggested to her she might want to switch them last week. TO me it was a least some sign that maybe she is being truthful in at least some of what she is saying. She could have very easily have tried to hide it from me and at the time I thought she was going to. Anyway our conversation went ok I guess. Basically I really let her know that this is all a very huge issue for me. I told her despite her assurances this was just pure friendship that I do not and will not believe it. I told her I believe that were at least heavily flirting and that I don't by the whole "joke" thing. I told her she would NEVER be comfortable with me communicating with another woman they way she was with this guy. She says she sees that, and that I am right. She said she would probably be a raving lunatic if she found emails like the ones I found and she completely understands where I am coming from. She says she realizes she was being stupid to think I would just get over this in a short period and realizes it could take me a long time. She said to take whatever time I needed, that she was not going anywhere and willing to do whatever it takes to prove proof that to me. She said if she gets frustrated with me from time to time if I still don't trust her to remind her of that so she will back off. She also said she would quit her job if I wanted, not go to dinner with her coworkers in a couple of weeks and anything else she could do that would help me see that our marriage is the most important thing to her. She honestly seems to be sincere in her really wanting to work this out. I still just wish she would admit that it was at least a little more than she is, I might feel better if i felt she was being 100% honest. I know she is downplaying certain aspects but I honestly don't have much proof at all of any physical relationship outside the office. Her cell phone is clean, She has not received any calls from him at home. She never goes into the office early (usually late actually because she needs to get the kids off to school) and never works late at night. When she does go shopping on weekends, she is never gone for abnormally long periods of time and does come back with stuff. I mean yeah she could be banging him in the car at lunch but god that is risky and she has a TON of extended family including her parents and many friends asshe grew up in the town she works in. At this point I am just trying to take it all in. I am trying to figure out if I can get over this and move on. I want to but it will not be easy. She really betrayed my trust here. I also informed her if I ever catch her in even the smallest lie this marriage will end immediately. To those who think I have been playing mr nice guy through all of this, that is not at all the case. I have been through every since personal item the woman owns. Her car, her drawers, her home office, every computer we have owned for the last 5 years, her closet, all her purses. I have not really turned up much. Well we will see where today takes me. As far as this damn concert even though I am sure its going to end with us fighting, I do think I want to go. I have not seen or met this guy yet, it may be helpful one way or the other to see how they behave around each other. I also will get a chance to meet his wife and maybe I can get some sense if she is looking for signs too. If she seems to be looking at my wife funny or something maybe it would show she has some suspicions as well.
quiet1one1 Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 In my experience one of the best tools to get you to back off is to throw your trust back at you. Cheaters will do and say anything to get YOU TO DOUBT YOU and to make you feel guilty. Don't let her do this! As I wrote previously, you have enough to go on. There are so many red flags you gotta feel like a bull, I know I did. As far as the voice recorder is concerned, I heard they work very well. If I was to use one I would test it thoroughly in real situations. In most states it's against the law to do this so if I was going to do this I would be very careful what information gets out to who. I would use the information for my own knowledge and to maybe to squeeze the truth out. I would not ever say how I found out. Understand? Good luck.
Lynna Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 Flex, I am very glad to hear that you were able to have a real conversation with her about this. That definitely accomplishes more than arguments. I am also VERY glad that she volunteered you the information about the new email account, and that she is willing to give you whatever time you need to cope and deal with this. She has recognized how badly she hurt you and how wrong it was. I think that indicates that she is trying to be fortright with you. If she really is not spending any extra time away from the office and never did, then I think you are safe in that this was only an EA. Now you are at the stage of needing to move forward and move on from this. I know a lot of people here have recommended the book After the Affair. Well, the same author wrote one called How do I forgive you. Maybe that would help you begin to heal from this and begin to forgive and trust your wife again. That is ESSENTIAL for your marriage to continue, you HAVE to be able to trust her again. You cannot live in continual doubt, you will kill yourself with the stress of that. It won't be easy and it won't be quick, but that is the only want you can stay in your marriage.
jmargel Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 Until you refuse to play detective and parent, these charades will continue. Love is not measured by words but by actions. Honesetly what do you think she is going to tell you? The truth? Honestly you should take her up on her offer to have her quit work. Call her bluff, see what she says. Let it ride for a few days and see if she gets angry with you. That will tell you alot. You also need to get into marriage counseling, this is something that you two need. The communication between you two is not good.
JamesM Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 This could be complete honesty or a complete cover up. I would go with complete honesty and move forward. As for the disclosure of the email account....this is good as long as she does not have another also set up. Email accounts are incredibly simple to set up and hide. Not meaning to put doubt in your mind, but I can set up ten this evening all with different addresses not related. So, this is good but not fool proof. She is interested in keeping her marriage, that I can see and believe. And I am thinking that this may only be a special friendship and nothing more. It may never escalate into anything more. But yes, if she is laying low for now, then down the road things may change. As for your evening out, don't put too much weight on that. How would you react if you knew that your wife thought that his wife was having an affair with YOU? Don't you think every word and glance would either look very suspicious to her or you would avoid looking at her all together? She and he will be very uncomfortable during your evening out. Give them both a break and try to act normal. Do not over analyze every glance and every move. IF they did not know that you suspected them (right or wrong), then yes, you could watch them. But now, just go have fun or don't go at all. Your marriage is having tough times, but they are far from insurmountable. Start going out with your wife as if YOU were her special friend and lover...because that is what you should be. You have the upper hand over him...keep it. As one person said to me here a long time past, always remember if you don't seduce your wife, someone else may try.
Cobra_X30 Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 Flex, I'm glad it seems like your making progress. I think it is also a good idea to ask her to switch jobs, it will show you where her commitment level is. Plus the job market is very good, there probably wont be a better time for this. It is also good that you are not playing Mr. Nice Guy. As long as she knows you have a .45 and a shovel, she probably wont take advantage of you.
Sevenmack Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 Until you refuse to play detective and parent, these charades will continue. Love is not measured by words but by actions. Honesetly what do you think she is going to tell you? The truth? Honestly you should take her up on her offer to have her quit work. Call her bluff, see what she says. Let it ride for a few days and see if she gets angry with you. That will tell you alot. You also need to get into marriage counseling, this is something that you two need. The communication between you two is not good. Good point, JMargel. At this point, you need to choose whether you want to stay or go. If you want to go, hire a detective and get ready for a divorce. If you want to stay, then you must ask her to go to counseling and demand that she shows you that she's no longer messing around. Taking her up on her bluff to quit her job is one move. Another would be to ask her to tell the details of the entire infidelity altogether. If she won't play, then she's not interested in going forward. Nothing is insurmountable in a relationship. But she has to be willing to work things out instead of hiding matters. Otherwise the salvage effort isn't worth the time.
Recommended Posts