SierraMarie Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 Not only can it be demonstrated that air exist, but the various elements, their density, and the air pressure can all be determined with a great deal of accuracy. If you live in any city there is a brownish, sometimes grayish cast in the air that is due to the pollution of your car, the power plants, heating furnaces, and fires. If the air is removed or contains harmful substances you can die. Just put your mouth around the exhaust pipe of your car when it’s running and then come back and tell me that air can’t be demonstrated to exist. I’m not at all prejudiced; I just think that religion is silly. You can be religious all you want, just don’t talk to me like it’s real. Just like warmongering, studies have shown that religious people (especially the fundamentalist type) are far more likely to be racist than non-religious people. Let’s not forget that all the great racists, like the KKK, have religious underpinnings. If was up to me all the borders would be open. Among my acquaintances, it is only the religious ones that want to kick all the Mexicans out of the country. Okay so that what a bad example. How about your emotions? Like when you're mad about something...can you PROVE that you're mad about to someone else? Probably not because it is the way you feel and you can't PROVE that to someone else. But it still exists because you exist and so therefore your thoughts and feelings exist. That last comment is not true at all. First of all studies aren't accurate. And why would CHRISTIANS (that is what this thread is about) have more prejudice and racism for people. If anything they should feel love for all people because they are all Gods creations.
halfarock Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 How is that not hard to predict? Do you think they could really know that science would be that advanced back in those days? And why would anyone have any reason to believe that there would be a lot of non-believers when most people used to be and no one could imagine that ever changing? Hm I’m pretty sure that the bible does not say that science will try to disprove god. The concept of science, the scientific method didn’t exist until the 17th century. Also, I don’t know the exact passage but I’m also pretty sure that it says something about people turning from god, worshiping false gods, following the devil. That is as silly as following your god.
SierraMarie Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 And excludes all those who don't, and advises its own flock to minimise association with them. Don't marry unbelievers, shun those who preach other beliefs. Christianity is in many cases the very textbook definition of "divisive" and "exclusive". That is the opposite of what Christianity teaches. Christians are supposed to associate with unbelievers so they can be an example and tell them about God. It in no way says to minimize association with them. And why would a christian marry an unbeliever? If you're an unbeliever, would you marry a Christian? Probably not. Exclusive because it teaches that it is the only truth and that every other doctrine is false and evil. It doesn't really teach that. Divisive because it creates two classes of human, the saved and the unsaved. The latter are regarded with distrust, condescending pity, indifference, or even hatred all because they may call god by a different name. I don't know of any Christian that would HATE somebody, for any reason. It helps to have a basis for comparison when dealing with terms like this, so consider a religion that teaches the opposite: that there are countless paths which can arrive at the same destination, that dogma is trivially unimportant, that it doesn't matter as much what a person believes but how they act on those beliefs and their attitude towards others. Consider a religion that teaches that we are truly all one, and that the differences between us are just self-imposed illusions, that we have the divine spark within us and that we don't have to view ourselves as failed, weak and beyond redemption, with our only hope to rely on external sources of salvation. You pretty much just described christianity. It seems to me that you don't know all that much about Christianity and maybe that's your problem. Youre preaching about something you don't know anything about.
lonelybird Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 And excludes all those who don't, and advises its own flock to minimise association with them. Don't marry unbelievers, shun those who preach other beliefs. Christianity is in many cases the very textbook definition of "divisive" and "exclusive". The world would be divided to LIGHT and DARKNESS. consider a religion that teaches the opposite: that there are countless paths which can arrive at the same destination, that dogma is trivially unimportant, that it doesn't matter as much what a person believes but how they act on those beliefs and their attitude towards others. Consider a religion that teaches that we are truly all one, and that the differences between us are just self-imposed illusions, that we have the divine spark within us and that we don't have to view ourselves as failed, weak and beyond redemption, with our only hope to rely on external sources of salvation. The bold part, don't you think that provoke PRIDE in people? think that they themselve can save themselves, so they don't have to obey God's commandments? In fact, you are trying to cover your eyes in order to avoid the pit. How can you say human aren't weak and failed? Find one example one person who is perfect, please. If you don't want to accept the truth that human being are fullible, that's doesn't mean human being aren't fullible People cannot save themselves because they are NOT perfect. If you want to think you are perfect, you are making major mistake here
halfarock Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 How about your emotions? Yes, emotions can be shown to exist. And not only in people but in mammals of every type. That is one of the characteristics that sets mammals apart from other animals. You're grasping at straws here. You can't prove god. How many people for how many thousands of years have hung onto the illusion of a god, and still no proof. So, if there is a god, where is it?
lonelybird Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 So, if there is a god, where is it? God is in our heart. It is personal experience. How can you prove another's experience and what they think and feel? Lord would knock the door, you didn't open it, the door of your heart
halfarock Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 If you're an unbeliever, would you marry a Christian? I wouldn’t. When ever I first get together with a woman, the first thing I ask is her religious beliefs. The ones I find most attractive tend to be atheists. Which leads me to the idea that it is more than just belief in a silliness that separates us.
SierraMarie Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 Yes, emotions can be shown to exist. And not only in people but in mammals of every type. That is one of the characteristics that sets mammals apart from other animals. You're grasping at straws here. You can't prove god. How many people for how many thousands of years have hung onto the illusion of a god, and still no proof. So, if there is a god, where is it? So then why do you care so much? I don't believe in ghosts but I don't go around trying to prove to people that they don't exist.
halfarock Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 God is in our heart. It is personal experience. How can you prove another's experience and what they think and feel? Lord would knock the door, you didn't open it, the door of your heart Doesn’t your bible say, "And God said, 'Let Us make man in our image, after our own likeness"? A few months ago I went to the hospital and got them to do an ultra sound on my heart, it works just fine. I don’t see where a little man would fit. It seems like he’d just clog the whole thing up. Plus, I don’t think that there is a door in it my heart. If there was, how would someone knock on it, my heart is inside of me. Just because you think something doesn’t make it real, you need to demonstrate it. Can you demonstrate a god’s existence?
halfarock Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 So then why do you care so much? I don't believe in ghosts but I don't go around trying to prove to people that they don't exist. Are people knocking on your door asking you to believe in ghosts? Are people telling you that you can’t do certain activates because their ghost won’t like it? Is your country going to war because your president claims that his ghost told him to? You said it yourself, “Christians are supposed to associate with unbelievers so they can be an example and tell them about God.” All I’m saying is okay, demonstrate to me that this god exists. Otherwise you all sound like a bunch of lunatics. I used to volunteer to take these old senile people out for a walk. Keep them company, make sure they didn’t get lost. Some I’m sure were never right. They would tell me all kinds of weird things. Talk of god seems to fall into the same category. Am I to just accept that half of everyone I meet is a lunatic? If one of you could just demonstrate the existence of a god, I’d accept it. That you can’t says a lot. So, one more time, can anybody demonstrate that a god exists?
SierraMarie Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 Maybe that's the point. Maybe you're not supposed to be able to prove that God exists. You probably won't understand this, though. I'll tell you one way to prove that God exists is Jesus Christ. I'm sure you'll have some clever way to rebuke this.
disgracian Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 And why would a christian marry an unbeliever? If you're an unbeliever, would you marry a Christian? Probably not. I not only would, I did. It doesn't really teach that. So which other religions will lead you to Heaven according to the Bible? I don't know of any Christian that would HATE somebody, for any reason. Head on over to http://www.christianforums.com and see it all for yourself. They hate Muslims, atheists, liberals, communists, you name it. You pretty much just described christianity. No, I'm pretty sure I didn't. I described a religion that makes no requirement to hold to dogmatic beliefs such as virgin births, divine creation, holy trinities, death and resurrection of a saviour, keeping of sabbaths or any such thing. Dogma is very important in Christianity: if you don't believe that Jesus was the son of god (or god himself as understood by the trinity doctrine) who died for your sins then you're going to Hell. If you have any other gods before the creator-god, you're going to Hell. It teaches that we are saved by faith in this dogma, not works. So being "a nice person" is insufficient if you don't have Jesus' seal of approval. No, I'm describing a religion that is very different to Christianity. It seems to me that you don't know all that much about Christianity and maybe that's your problem. Youre preaching about something you don't know anything about. I've grown up in a Christian society, read the Bible more than once, tried on more than one occasion to be a Christian, I married a Christian and I go to church regularly. I would say that I've got a finger or two on the pulse. You're welcome to cite scripture to correct me on any particular point, but simply saying "you're wrong" won't cut it. Cheers, D.
disgracian Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 The world would be divided to LIGHT and DARKNESS. Thank-you for confirming that point. Now we just need to convince SierraMarie. The bold part, don't you think that provoke PRIDE in people? think that they themselve can save themselves, so they don't have to obey God's commandments? Not with the correct understanding, no. It's not about following commandments either, so it's really hard to translate what I'm talking about to your framework of understanding. How can you say human aren't weak and failed? Find one example one person who is perfect, please. If you don't want to accept the truth that human being are fullible, that's doesn't mean human being aren't fullible You're getting confused here by binary thinking. A human does not have to be "perfect" to not be weak and beyond redemption. "Perfection" in this context doesn't even make any sense. What I am saying is that humans are obviously fallible and make mistakes, but that's simply part of the learning process, part of maturing and evolving. Everybody has the capacity to "save" themselves, in fact only the individual can do this; nobody can do it for them. I don't expect you to agree, but that's simply the way I see it. Cheers, D.
lonelybird Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 Everybody has the capacity to "save" themselves, in fact only the individual can do this; nobody can do it for them. I guess people made themselves too, people made other species, and earth, and universe too:rolleyes: Yeah, I got your thinking, full of pride. How can a fallible person save himself? by what? meditation? how can a fallible person think out something PERFECT? or just your wishful imagination?
disgracian Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 You are clinging to this idea of perfection, which (aside from being largely meaningless) is redundant. Bear in mind, I am not referring to salvation as you would understand it, I'm trying to meet you half way here so we at least have some common ground. That is why I wrote "save" inside quotation marks. This may have been a mistake on my part, and I apologise for any confusion. I do not believe in original sin which we require salvation from. That idea makes no sense with regards to the way the universe (as I understand it) works. Cheers, D.
quankanne Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 I do not believe in original sin which we require salvation from. That idea makes no sense with regards to the way the universe (as I understand it) works. am curious here: What is your thought on humans possessing souls, then? personally, I think the soul is what set apart the "first" humans (Adam and Eve and their sons) from other humans who didn't answer the call of God. Which would explain Cain getting married, and who Lillith is … but this is mere extrapolation of what I've read and mulled over, kinda making a tidy equation in my mind. anyhow, we have souls, and though we are all called by God, not everyone responds. Because they don't have the need to believe, because they don't have the "proof" to believe, because they're afraid to believe. Now, based on some of the arguments in this thread, my guess is that the non-believers who have posted fall primarily in the first and second categories … God doesn't fit into their lives, therefore he doesn't make sense. And because he doesn't make sense, then the person who *does* believe is a joke. Because in their way of thinking the soul doesn't possess any value.
halfarock Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 A soul is as real as a god. They only exist because you think that they exist. Follow the logic. It is said that a soul is the ultimate essences of who someone is. It is that part of one that lives on beyond the body. But what is it that’s me beyond my body - what would go to heaven, if there was a heaven. It is assumed this the part of one that thinks and feels, that is, your mind. When someone has a supposed out of body experience, isn’t it their mind that has the out of body experience. Yet, ones mind and memories are tied intricately to one’s physical brain. Physical disease and injury have the capacity to greatly degrade one’s mind. If your mind, being essentially, your soul, shouldn’t it have the capacity to rise above injury to the physical brain. After all if your soul is to have any meaning, it has to include your mind and memories. But there is a clear indication that mind is part of a physical process. If one truly had a soul, alcohol and other mind altering substances would have no effect.
nicki Posted July 16, 2007 Posted July 16, 2007 Beliefs are personal. Like I said before, it doesn't matter what someone believes unless they live those beliefs in their daily lives. So whatever makes you a better person is good. Like Disgracian, I believe that we all have a spark of the divine (God, if you will) in us. We ARE all interconnected. It is the illusion of being separate that causes us unhappiness. We alone change our lives. We alone are responsible for our "salvation" or englightenment. I agree that it's our core beliefs that drive us. So, again, whatever someone wants to believe is just fine. We are born human, with no sin necessary to wash away. Look at any baby and tell me they aren't a beautiful clean slate. I don't believe that God is a force outside us that saves us. On the contrary, I believe that the divine is already in us, all of us. Whether one calls this our reasoning, or our creativity, or our love, or simply our intellect, it doesn't matter. It's about personal power and responsibility. No one condemns my life but me, and no one saves it but me. If there is a God, then he created my brain, correct? Is he not then responsible for my very thoughts? So either way of thinking, God or no God has the same outcome for me. I choose to be a good person and use my life to do good things. But again, these are my beliefs and how I choose to organize my thoughts and my life. I believe in the power of choice. Choose whatever path you want. Choose whatever face of "God" you want to see, even if it is simply your own.
disgracian Posted July 17, 2007 Posted July 17, 2007 Im curious here: What is your thought on humans possessing souls, then? What's a soul? Or, more accurately, what do you think a soul is? Cheers, D.
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