Brioli Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 "As for the Science argument...I must say that to me Science proves the existence of God, not the other way around. " im really curious as to how science proves the existence of god to you?? If you can't see how this is "HIGHBOOST" then I see no reason to explain but I will try and make one statement in the arguement that science proves God.... First I assume you believe in the BiG BANG theory? Well guess what...I do too to some degree..but here is the thing. I believe that everything comes from something. I mean how do we explain space? I mean yes we can say that planets form from exloading Novas and such, but who created the Nova's? Who created the dark mass? I want to say that I am NOT BY FAR Ignorant! Has it ever occured to any of you that people believe for a REASON? Why would so many people believe in something that has no basis or proof? Which is precisiely the point.... It has been proven to me, and I have NO doubts at all. Ignorance is when you never give something a chance, and just CHOOSE to believe it is not real.... Yes, I will say you haven't given it a chance because then you would know otherwise. I mean you truly believe that life just spontainously evolved? I mean what sounds more logical...life just all the sudden coming into being or someone/something making it? I firmly believe the latter has more logic. How do you explain the perfect harmony of every thing around us. Alive or Dead...here on earth and elsewhere. Science does not prove anything other then ways to use our environment to our advantage, and then Science gives it a name. They discover something and give it a name...it is not officially "this" just because Science gives it a name, and not from God. I mean we can say the Big Bang Theory happened and Science can say they are pretty sure that it was cause by an exploding star...but does that mean that God didn't have a hand in it? We talk of evolution and science has proven that evolution is real (at least in the sense that things evolve to adapt to their environment)...but does that mean that God didn't create life to adapt in this manner? To me, life is way to complicated to NOT believe there is GOd...and no matter how many times people in Science give something a name and explain how it happens or works..it will never ever disprove a God. We are nothing more then a bunch of ants walking around a very small planet compared to the rest of our solar system and space. How can you believe a mere human, capable of so many errors, knows what they are talking about? Also, Science has already carbon dated copies of scripture. Copies of scripture that contain prophesies that are older then the actual occurance of the prophesied event...this has also been proven by science. BTW..let me know when Science discovers how to create a Star that is 200-light-years across. Can you even fathom how large that is? PULLEASE! Also, for the record...I was not raised in church, nor was I taught very much about God from my parents or family. Both my parents were hard core hippies in the 60's..so I believe that explains itself. My belief comes from my own research and studies into the faith, and also the amazing things that have happened in my life since then. It has always been my experience that anyone who gives God a chance, and tries to get to know him and find out what he is about....always realizes...there are no doubts that he is real. It's the people who base what they believe on what others tell them, how others treat them, and what others say. I mean look what you wrote Halfrock, "I’ve met a lot of people who were horrible people but convinced themselves that they were good and going to heaven because they believed". Take my advice, and don't base your belief on the people. and Highboost...the Bible is not flawed. You have learned that from others who's eyes are the ones that "ARE NOT TRULY OPEN". The Bible in no way contradicts itself....
Cobra_X30 Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 I am going to answer your original question. Your friend is not really a christian. A true christian church would have walked her through these issues during confirmation, and in the face of unrepentant sin would excommunicate her.
quankanne Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 A true christian church would have walked her through these issues during confirmation, and in the face of unrepentant sin would excommunicate her. you've used a couple of Catholic terms here, so I assume you are talking about the Catholic Church? The one which preaches ceaseless forgiveness of sin? Excommunication is the very, VERY last ditch effort "reserved for especially serious offenses committed by church members," according to the Catholic News Service Stylebook. Excommunication is one of three ecclesiastical censures and are "known as 'medicinal penalities,' since they are intended to heal the harm caused by the offense and at the same time lead the offender to return to a good standing within the church," according to the stylebook. Certain acts "such as procuring a completed abortion, heresy, schism, apostacy, a confessor violating the seal of confession or the sacriligious use of the Eucharist automatically brings about excommunication," the stylebook says, but the person who has been excommunicated still remains a member of the church "subject to its legislation," unless that person has left the church by means of formal act. not sure where the church stands on abortion and excommunication, though I imagine that's changed in the time since the stylebook was last update, but the other examples pretty much go against Church doctrine. However, Rome bends over backwards to give people another chance – excommunication is a last ditch effort after all help is rejected by the person who needs to be reconciled with the Church.
Brioli Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 To Cobra... Oh really? Hmmm, well I must say if that is the way you feel, then you are no better then the priests were in Jesus's time and ours. They condemed Jesus for associating with sinners, and helping them to know and love the lord. No, a true Christian church does NOT excommunicate people. It is in the business of helping to save souls. For Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but the sinners." MARK 2:17
SouthernT Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 Yeah, well since the bible says that judging is a sin, then why are there like 200 different churches in my community that segregate people by color, financial background, political views, etc, etc. From what I've read about "Christianity", it's supposed to be about accepting, and that sure isn't what I see. Then people wonder why some people don't put themselves in the middle of religion. I'm not saying all "Christians" are like this, but most don't follow Christianity. YOU will be held accountable to God for YOUR actions. You can not be concerned with what everybody else is doing and loose track of what YOU are supposed to be doing. But yes I do agree with what you are saying above. This has already been explained in the Bible when we are told to beware of false prophets. First of all, she's not an alcoholic, and not addicted to anything. You really believe that someone is making an effort to become at Christian, yet after church on Sunday the same person heads straight to the bar? To answer this question as well as your original question which started this post: Just because a person becomes a Christian DOES NOT MEAN that person will not continue to have a battle between his/her flesh and spirit. Fleshly desires being drinking, pre-marital sex, cursing, anger, ect.... The spirit then steps in and says "you know this is not right" This is why it seems to others that Christians are going back and forth and we are called hypocrits. It's like going to the club on a Saturday night (fleshly desire) and getting up for church on Sunday morning because you feel bad for what you did the nigt before. (the Spirit) God will not allow you to enjoy these things without later on, making you feel bad for them. In other words, HE gives us free will to do whatever, but it will bother our spirit. This is why your friend goes back and forth between church and the bar. This does not make us hypocrits. Having a better understanding of HIS word will help you to see this. When a person has an intimate relationship with HIM, then they do not want to disapoint Him in any why if at all humanly possible. Just like we don't want let our parents down when we are growing up. This is what it means to have an intimate relatioship with God. I am very educated on Christianity and where the belief came from. Knowing where Christianity came from is only a start in the process. That does not mean that you understand it fully. However, I chose to believe in science, something that I can physical hold and see with my naked eye. Which proves my point above. I don't dislike the belief of GOD, or something greater than this universe, and I don't mean to come off that way. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, because what a person believes, is what they believe, and it gets them through life. And it's what gets you through life as well. God is at work right now because HE prompted you to start this thread. I know it's a belief. And the belief also comes with believing in the Ten Commandments, which are supposed to be followed, yet most "Christians" don't. That is why I find it hard to believe in something man came up with. Not even most Christians can follow those commandments, and there not even hard. People don't have to lie or "sin", it's by choice. Nobody is perfect except for Jesus himself. Christians understand this. We are to strive to be a reflection of him, but we can never BE him. This is the MAIN thing that you need to understand. Most people turn away from Christianity because they feel as though they could never live a perfect life. That is not what Christianity is about. Yes we will make mistakes. The difference is being educated on his word and "knowingly" doing the wrong things and not repenting for them. We ALL will fall short of his glory. Wow, and if you really believe that telling a fib is just as bad as taking someones life, then you need to seek help, professional help. Very soon! No sin is greater than the other. YES one sin may cause more damage than the other. The point is this: a sin is a sin. It's like comparing a Ford Escort to a Mercedes. Obviously there is no comparison between the two because there is a difference in value, saftey features ect...But when it comes down to it: They are both what we call "cars". And your saying people who don't believe in God, aren't content? Not saying that people who don't believe in God aren't content. But I will say that they are content in "worldy" things because they do not understand what it means to be content in the "spirit". How are you so certain God works through other people? God is at work at the VERY moment through this VERY thread. Somebody will read this and begin to question. Somebody will ask themselves "Can I really be that cotent?" "Can I challenge myself to let go of MY desires and replace them with HIS disires for me & my life?" Luke 6:37 "Do not judge and you will not be judged. That's usually how it is, but not because the bible says so. It is that way because the Bible says so and therefore people try their best to live that way. The Bible is part of the foundation. You are able to benefit from not being judged because someone else is following what the Bible says. "Excuse me, it's not just her, it's all "Christian", because even you just said "we are 'all' sinners". So what is it? Like I said, the Ten Commandment aren't impossible to live by. So, why do you and the rest of the Christian population keep on breaking the law, that you and the rest supposedly believe in?" Ha...FAT CHANCE...She even said she wasn't giving up her old ways!! It won't be HER choice. It will eventually happen because it will be God's will. It may not be at this very moment. It may be years down the line. And that's how God works. HE gives us chance after chance after chance until eventually HE will bring us to a point of rock bottom. (car accident, death of a loved one ect...) And when this happens, she will have no choice but to go back to where she started. And that is with God and she will then understand that HE was directing her the entire time. And I will close with one very simple question: Why is it that you do not believe in God?
soulseeker Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 your best chance for having your expectations met is to only have them for yourself. Others will not be living with your expectations of them in mind. Brilliant! Additionally, how can anyone claim to know what is best for another person. I am sure there are plenty of times you barely know what is best for yourself.
halfarock Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 "As for the Science argument...I must say that to me Science proves the existence of God, not the other way around. " hehe Sure it does, that is why throughout the rest of your post you keep insinuating that god must be real because science is wrong. I believe that everything comes from something. I mean how do we explain space? I mean yes we can say that planets form from exploding Novas and such, but who created the Nova's? Who created the dark mass? What was I saying about ignorance? I want to say that I am NOT BY FAR Ignorant! Has it ever occured to any of you that people believe for a REASON? Why would so many people believe in something that has no basis or proof? People are gullible. Look no further than the advertising industry. It doesn’t take a lot to get a large number of people to believe almost anything. For instance, it’s been shown that the Bush administration and his supporters in the media got over 2/3 of the American population to believe that Saddam Hussein was behind the events of 2001 September 11. Even by Bush’s own admission, Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with it. Even when presented with the truth some people still insist on believing it. It has been proven to me, and I have NO doubts at all. Ignorance is when you never give something a chance, and just CHOOSE to believe it is not real.... Yes, I will say you haven't given it a chance because then you would know otherwise. I sure did. I didn’t have a choice. Growing up, this religion crap was thrown at me from every angle. But it didn’t all make sense and I kept asking questions that no one wanted to answer. Like if god had to knock down the tower of Babel to keep people from reaching heaven, then why doesn’t he knock down airplanes and rocket ships which go much higher? It wasn’t until I was put into a gifted and talented program did I find others who questioned god and religion as I did. And whoa, what a revelation; many of the smart kids doubted god while all the dumb kids accepted it without question. I mean you truly believe that life just spontaneously evolved? I mean what sounds more logical...life just all the sudden coming into being or someone/something making it? I firmly believe the latter has more logic. How do you explain the perfect harmony of every thing around us. Alive or Dead...here on earth and elsewhere. Again, what was I saying about ignorance. I really don’t have the time nor is this the place to show you how utterly wrong your point of view on this matter is. Try studying evolution and don’t just accept that crap creationists throw at you. Science does not prove anything other then ways to use our environment to our advantage, and then Science gives it a name. They discover something and give it a name...it is not officially "this" just because Science gives it a name, and not from God. I mean we can say the Big Bang Theory happened and Science can say they are pretty sure that it was cause by an exploding star...but does that mean that God didn't have a hand in it? We talk of evolution and science has proven that evolution is real (at least in the sense that things evolve to adapt to their environment)...but does that mean that God didn't create life to adapt in this manner? To me, life is way to complicated to NOT believe there is GOd...and no matter how many times people in Science give something a name and explain how it happens or works..it will never ever disprove a God. We are nothing more then a bunch of ants walking around a very small planet compared to the rest of our solar system and space. How can you believe a mere human, capable of so many errors, knows what they are talking about? You obviously know nothing about science so the god argument must be right? In all of science it is discovered how things work, not everything is yet understood, which why we still have science, but in all of it there has yet to arise a situation where it is evident that a god had a hand in it. There is no god particle, no god force, nothing, absolutely nothing. The totality of science has shown that there is no need for a god. Science doesn’t disprove unicorns but the fact that none have ever been found pretty much indicates that there aren’t any. Also, Science has already carbon dated copies of scripture. Copies of scripture that contain prophesies that are older then the actual occurance of the prophesied event...this has also been proven by science. And where did you get this from? Certainly not scientific literature. If this were true then why do so many religious groups claim that carbon dating is seriously flawed? Could it be that carbon dating has disproved many of the claims of religious thought? BTW..let me know when Science discovers how to create a Star that is 200-light-years across. Can you even fathom how large that is? PULLEASE! Again ignorance. The whole purpose of science is to discover how things are, to describe. Science creates nothing but knowledge. And where do you find these 200-light-years across stars? What is the point of even bringing this up? Also, for the record...I was not raised in church, nor was I taught very much about God from my parents or family. Both my parents were hard core hippies in the 60's..so I believe that explains itself. Same goes for my girlfriend and she is every much an atheist as I am. My belief comes from my own research and studies into the faith, and also the amazing things that have happened in my life since then. And how much time did you devote to studying the objections to what is presented as truth in religion? If you only study one side of an argument, you’re not making an informed, intelligent decision. It's the people who base what they believe on what others tell them, how others treat them, and what others say. I mean look what you wrote Halfrock, "I’ve met a lot of people who were horrible people but convinced themselves that they were good and going to heaven because they believed". Take my advice, and don't base your belief on the people. Everyone says that believing in god makes one a better person but when I point out all the people who aren’t very nice but who are ardent believers, then I’m told that you can’t go by what believers do. What the hell. Do you just change the rules to fit your arguments? How do you think people learn about god? Someone tells them, they read about it. They read stuff other people wrote. You’ll never find a person who lived on a desert island with no prior knowledge of Jesus, suddenly waking up one day and finding Jesus. People only find out about Jesus by being told or reading. Religion and god, it’s all learned, it doesn’t come naturally. If god was real and universal then it would be the same everywhere. But it’s not because religion is made up, it arises out of one’s culture, not the other way around. In the beginning, man created god. …the Bible is not flawed. You have learned that from others who's eyes are the ones that "ARE NOT TRULY OPEN". The Bible in no way contradicts itself.... The bible is greatly flawed. As far as contradictions, just look at the lineage listed in the different gospels, they absolutely contradict each other. Or that, by the bible, it is supposed that the universe is only some 6000 years old. If that were the case, then how do you explain that we can see the light from stars that took millions of years to reach us? I’ve read the bible from cover to cover, just to see what all the hubbub was about. The most boring, ill written book I’ve ever read. You’d think that if there was a god that it would find much better writers to write its stuff for it.
disgracian Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 If you can't see how this is "HIGHBOOST" then I see no reason to explain You see no reason to explain your beliefs? but I will try and make one statement in the arguement that science proves God... You've set yourself up an impossible task, and also shown some fundamental ignorance of science in the process. If you want proof, stick with logic and mathematics, but the notion of proof in science is hubristic enough even when dealing with strictly natural phenomenon. But "god" is unprovable and unfalsifiable and according to Christians is not subject to natural order. Science doesn't prove anything; there is always doubt and room for improvement. That's why theories are refined over time, discarding bits that are shown to be wrong (which is why falsifiability is so important). I believe that everything comes from something. I mean how do we explain space? I mean yes we can say that planets form from exloading Novas and such, but who created the Nova's? Who created the dark mass? No, you don't. Otherwise where did your god come from? Who created him? You've set up this self-contradicting logical abomination here. Your first premise is basically that everything is created, and then you will inevitably violate that premise by saying god always existed. But if that's the case, then it's not true that everything requires a creator, so gone is the need to posit a creator-god. The universe is quite capable of having always existed. Has it ever occured to any of you that people believe for a REASON? Perhaps, only as per your first sentence, you refuse to explain what your reasons are. Why would so many people believe in something that has no basis or proof? Isn't that exactly what you go on to accuse atheists of doing when you say: "Ignorance is when you never give something a chance, and just CHOOSE to believe it is not real.... Yes, I will say you haven't given it a chance because then you would know otherwise." I mean you truly believe that life just spontainously evolved? I mean what sounds more logical...life just all the sudden coming into being or someone/something making it? I firmly believe the latter has more logic. How do you explain the perfect harmony of every thing around us. By choosing the latter, you set yourself up for the problem of infinite regress. Every creator of something in turn needs to be created...that is until you break the chain by violating your own premise. Ergo, this results in epic fail. Harmony can also be explained a number of different ways. Ecosystems are preserved by balance through natural selection. We marvel at how everything serves its purpose and contributes to the system. Well of course it does, otherwise it wouldn't be that way. That which doesn't fit in the balance is discarded, and that's why we have catalogued so many extinct species. I mean we can say the Big Bang Theory happened and Science can say they are pretty sure that it was cause by an exploding star... Nobody who knew what they were talking about would say this. Stars and singularities are not even close to the same thing. but does that mean that God didn't have a hand in it? We talk of evolution and science has proven that evolution is real (at least in the sense that things evolve to adapt to their environment)...but does that mean that God didn't create life to adapt in this manner? You seem to have the burden of proof concept backwards. It's not so much that god didn't play some part, it's just that it's not necessary to appeal to god at all. You may as well say "how do you know that god doesn't keep birds from falling out of the sky". Maybe the theory of gravity is wrong, and Intelligent Falling is correct. But the problem is this: how do you test this? You can't, and that's precisely why god is, regardless of existence, completely unscientific. It's why trying to use science to prove god is about as useless as a one-legged man in an arse-kicking contest. Also, Science has already carbon dated copies of scripture. Copies of scripture that contain prophesies that are older then the actual occurance of the prophesied event Prophecy is a whole other topic, and I fear my post is becoming too long already. BTW..let me know when Science discovers how to create a Star that is 200-light-years across. Can you even fathom how large that is? PULLEASE! I don't see the relevance. Science can't create a huge star, therefore god exists? Epic fail. It has always been my experience that anyone who gives God a chance, and tries to get to know him and find out what he is about....always realizes...there are no doubts that he is real. It's been my experience that this isn't always true. You can probably say "they mustn't have really given god a chance" but that would be far too presumptuous. It would also be very self-serving to effectively discard any testimony that disagrees with you world view as being automatically erroneous or deceitful. Cheers, D.
lonelybird Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 People are gullible. Look no further than the advertising industry. It doesn’t take a lot to get a large number of people to believe almost anything. For instance, it’s been shown that the Bush administration and his supporters in the media got over 2/3 of the American population to believe that Saddam Hussein was behind the events of 2001 September 11. Even by Bush’s own admission, Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with it. Even when presented with the truth some people still insist on believing it. Bush administration isn't same as God's administration. The former you can see, the later you must take your heart into. Like if god had to knock down the tower of Babel to keep people from reaching heaven, then why doesn’t he knock down airplanes and rocket ships which go much higher? God knocked down the tower of Babel because people's PRIDE and REBEL. People is born with sinful nature, so their rebel really can lead whole human being to totally destruction, fortunally God is in control of everything:). and you know that pride can take us nowhere. Again, what was I saying about ignorance. I really don’t have the time nor is this the place to show you how utterly wrong your point of view on this matter is. Try studying evolution and don’t just accept that crap creationists throw at you. But you accepted EVERYTHING in the evolution theory, didn't you? According you, people is fullible, so how can their theory be perfect? In fact, their evolution theory didn't offer enough prove. Seems like you accepted nonperfected evolution without a doubt:); but we accept God with our heart. You obviously know nothing about science so the god argument must be right? In all of science it is discovered how things work, not everything is yet understood, which why we still have science, but in all of it there has yet to arise a situation where it is evident that a god had a hand in it. There is no god particle, no god force, nothing, absolutely nothing. As I know, a true scientist is one who is curious, with open mind, never say "never", that's why they can become scientist, they found something new that nobody found before. When you claim "absolutely nothing", what this say about you? How do you think people learn about god? Someone tells them, they read about it. Yes, and most important factor you missed. HEART
disgracian Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 The heart is a muscle that pumps blood around the body, lonelybird. What exactly do you mean by it? Emotion? If so, I would argue that emotion is a poor substitute for wisdom and knowledge when it comes to decision-making. This isn't to say that emotions are unimportant—far from it, but it is the wrong tool for the job when it comes to determining the truth of things. Cheers, D.
lonelybird Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 The heart is a muscle that pumps blood around the body, lonelybird. What exactly do you mean by it? Emotion? If so, I would argue that emotion is a poor substitute for wisdom. Cheers, D. Not emotion. I meant SPIRIT, SOUL and conscience. invisible realm
disgracian Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 Conscience I am familiar with. Spirit and soul, on the other hand...well, nobody seems to mean the same thing when they use those terms. How do you define the soul and the spirit? Cheers, D.
mental_traveller Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 The reason people break their religion's commandments is because they act more on impulses and desires than on their religion and its rules. The trouble with most (all?) religions is that they tell people to act in a way that is contrary to basic human nature e.g. having sex, enjoying pleasurable activities etc. Human nature, basic drives and impulses, are in general stronger than intellectual reasoning or rules or authority of any kind. Personally I think almost all religious people are hypocrites in their actions, and many are hypocritical in their intentions too. They set the standard of behaviour high, and fail dismally to meet it. Yet they have no hesitation in judging others for falling short of the same standards they themselves cannot keep. The good thing about agnostic or atheist morality is that it sets achievable and realistic standards of behaviour. Morality is really pretty simple and 99% of it can be summed up in a few basic rules that everyone ultimately understands: 1) Don't act to others in ways that you wouldn't like to be treated yourself. 2) When conflicts arise, try to resolve them in the way that causes the least harm. 3) If you do wrong or harm others, do your best to make up for it. I think most people are able to follow those rules, most of the time. If you are non-religious, you don't need the patience and discipline of a saint, in order to be a moral person who avoids hypocrisy. Just follow the basic rules of moral behaviour and you'll be ok. But if you are religious then it is pretty much guaranteed that you are going to be a hypocrite and lead a "sinful" life, breaking your own rules again and again, feeling guilty about it etc. I'm not religious so I don't know how that works for religious people, but it doesn't seem like a recipe for happiness to me.
Chamari Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 Just a thought for the OP--have you ever read the Screwtape Letters? In my opinion there's a lot of truth in that book. Obviously, it is fiction, but I think it makes some really good points and you might find it interesting all the same.
high_boost Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 halfarock and disgracian you guys are my heros!! you pretty much said everything i wanted to say to her. just got back to late. thanks. and briole... i have given it a chance and read the bible. infact reading the bible is what made me a definate non believer. its funny.. i was watching the news with my pops the other week and this guy was on there who said he had a dream one night to go visit some island i've never heard of. well he visited it and saw a 4ft black bird. even got a photo of it lol. him and his whole family supposedly saw this bird and back him up. anyway the bird gave him some powers to be able to tell if someone is sick, and the ability to heal them. this crap was on the news!! anyway so my dad says "yeah right who the hell would believe a story like that" of course you know what i said to him next. someone like you dad. lol that story is just as far fetched as 98% of the bible. i think that when the bible was discovered, forged whatever.. however it was created people were soo gullable that they believed it . unfortunatly its been taught in schools, and by parents and such that there is definatly a god so you better believe or your going to hell. its a tradition. i gaurentee as people have much more common sense these days if that book were found recently it would be discarded as the man and his 4ft black bird pictures were. seriously people open your eyes. the only proof you have of your god is found in a flawed book writen by a man. not a god.
lonelybird Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 The reason people break their religion's commandments is because they act more on impulses and desires than on their religion and its rules. The trouble with most (all?) religions is that they tell people to act in a way that is contrary to basic human nature e.g. having sex, enjoying pleasurable activities etc. Human nature, basic drives and impulses, are in general stronger than intellectual reasoning or rules or authority of any kind. Personally I think almost all religious people are hypocrites in their actions, and many are hypocritical in their intentions too. They set the standard of behaviour high, and fail dismally to meet it. Yet they have no hesitation in judging others for falling short of the same standards they themselves cannot keep. The good thing about agnostic or atheist morality is that it sets achievable and realistic standards of behaviour. Morality is really pretty simple and 99% of it can be summed up in a few basic rules that everyone ultimately understands: 1) Don't act to others in ways that you wouldn't like to be treated yourself. 2) When conflicts arise, try to resolve them in the way that causes the least harm. 3) If you do wrong or harm others, do your best to make up for it. I think most people are able to follow those rules, most of the time. If you are non-religious, you don't need the patience and discipline of a saint, in order to be a moral person who avoids hypocrisy. Just follow the basic rules of moral behaviour and you'll be ok. But if you are religious then it is pretty much guaranteed that you are going to be a hypocrite and lead a "sinful" life, breaking your own rules again and again, feeling guilty about it etc. I'm not religious so I don't know how that works for religious people, but it doesn't seem like a recipe for happiness to me. Well, if Lord pull one from mud, usually one won't go back to roll in it again. Many people do obey Lord's commandments. Christianity is not just about bunch of rules. It is more about RELATIONSHIP. Relationship with Lord. And changing from within after we accept Lord into our heart. It is about FAITH and DESTINY. If you have relationship with Lord and Holy Spirit in you, you will become dislike those ungodly things you liked before. It is a process, sometimes it is very sudden to change. So why we bring rules out from time to time? People have self-righteouness tendency, they think they are good people enough, don't need God's forgiveness, but in fact, they are living in sinful life without knowing. Laws are for disobedients. will bring repentence and change. If you know there is a pit ahead of a road, will you tell a blind man to be careful? or just shut up, to fear to offend this blind man?
high_boost Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 If you know there is a pit ahead of a road, will you tell a blind man to be careful? or just shut up, to fear to offend this blind man? what the hell are you talking about??? why would a blind man be offended by you telling him there is a pit ahead of him?? i think he would thank you for it. geeze religion makes people think weird thoughts
quankanne Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 to post this again, ad nauseum: The Bible is a collection of writings about man's spiritual journey. Period. While there are historical references, some great literary devices (like metaphor and analogy), some poetry and proverbs, and bits of geography and sociology, it is primarily a spiritual account of man's search for God. And a highly subjective account, at that, so how can one say it's wrong when it can be interpreted in different ways for different reasons by different people? It wasn’t until I was put into a gifted and talented program did I find others who questioned god and religion as I did. And whoa, what a revelation; many of the smart kids doubted god while all the dumb kids accepted it without question. … I really don’t have the time nor is this the place to show you how utterly wrong your point of view on this matter is. oh child, I do believe your rear is showing. How exactly does arrogance become a fitting tool to bring people around to your way of thinking? I'm glad that you're a smart boy who found his niche through academia, but some people find their niches in spirituality. God and faith cannot be proven with formulas and science, but neither was meant to be proven thusly. I can see how becomes is problematic for people who *need* evidence and proof, but maybe it's an indication for them to walk on the spiritual side for a bit. You know, just to see if their new-found belief system really is everything they claim it to be ... just a thought ... Now I'm curious, you said "many" of the smart kids. Does this mean that because that small handful had a relationship with God they were no longer "smart"? The totality of science has shown that there is no need for a god. LOL ... you've reminded me of the joke where the scientist tells God that He is obsolete, that man has no need for him anymore because man had found a way to create humans from scratch. "Oh?" God asks. "Truly," replied the scientist. "I'm willing to bet everything I've got to prove that you're obsolete, and we can have a contest to see who can create the better human model." God nods in agreement, and the two set a date for the contest. That day comes and the scientist and God are side by side, preparing to grab the "ingredients" needed to create a human. Someone yells "GO!" and the scientist quickly bends down to swipe a hand full of dirt off the ground. "Hey," God chides him, "make your own dirt!" :P what the hell are you talking about??? why would a blind man be offended by you telling him there is a pit ahead of him?? i think he would thank you for it. geeze religion makes people think weird thoughts she's using analogy to describe why believers share the Word with people, to show them there's a safer passage in life, one that culminates in the presence of God
Brioli Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 sure did. I didn’t have a choice. Growing up, this religion crap was thrown at me from every angle. I have heard this so many times...it's heartbreaking what the hell are you talking about??? why would a blind man be offended by you telling him there is a pit ahead of him?? i think he would thank you for it. geeze religion makes people think weird thoughts If you are so intelligent then you would know exactly what she is talking about...she is saying that when you don't understand the truth..you are blind...and blind people fall. Also, some blind people may feel you are picking on them no...? Either way it was an analogy Truly, I can't continue with this...because it is utterly heartbreaking. All I can say is...when the end comes....I hope that things will change, and I will pray for all of you. Not because I'm some self righteous perfect person..but because I know the truth. I just wish all of you did. Your mind is playing tricks on you and Satan is at the head of it. Religon..and personal religon are two different things in this world... It takes a true Dumb A#% to allow people to influence what they believe.
lonelybird Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 what the hell are you talking about??? why would a blind man be offended by you telling him there is a pit ahead of him?? i think he would thank you for it. geeze religion makes people think weird thoughts Thanks quankanne Nonbelievers' spiritual eyes aren't opened yet, so they are blind. But hell exist. Sins are pits. Hell is a large pit that one cannot get out. Now a believer tell a nonbeliever that this and that sin is pit, don't jump in. but nonbeliever get angry because they love that sinful deed which in the end bring destruction. For example, adultery is sin, is a pit. but when a believer warn nonbeliever, nonbeliever say "they don't believe there is a hell", so this is like "a man cover his eyes to avoid the pit".
disgracian Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 Truly, I can't continue with this...because it is utterly heartbreaking. I think the real reason you can't continue is pretty obvious to most people here. Looks like I went to all that trouble in responding to all your claims for nothing. Oh well. Cheers, D.
Brioli Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 and Highboost..you said you given it a chance? Did you pray about it or just open the book and not understand a thing? I have had people tell me that didn't understand a thing in the bible....and the bible tells us why. I am going to leave everyone with some scriptures. I feel driven to do this and mean no offense, but it is my duty. PSA 32:9 Do not be like the horse or the mule, which have no understanding but must be controlled by bit and bridle or they will not come to you. ISA 44:18 They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand. JER 31:19 After I strayed, I repented; after I came to understand, I beat my breast. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.' DAN 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?" Dan 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand. MAT 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand MAT 13:15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'* MAT 13:19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 1COR 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 1COR 2:14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned 2PETER 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 2PETER 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. JUDAS 1:10 Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals-these are the very things that destroy them. I am going to repeat this one more time, as simple as I can. DO NOT LISTEN TO PEOPLE! MAT 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. LUK 11:9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. REV 3:19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. REV 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. REV 3:22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the people.” THERE IS NOTHING THAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IN THE BIBLE. IF I AM SO IGNORANT THEN WHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO ARGUE WITH ME? WHY DO I UNDERSTAND YET YOU DO NOT? God Bless *Bri
Brioli Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 the only proof you have of your god is found in a flawed book writen by a man. not a god. I have to comment on this....THAT IS NOT THE ONLY PROOF THAT I HAVE HAD! BELIEVE YOU ME!
halfarock Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 When I was a child, whenever I stood up and questioned god, people from kids, my parents, other adults all threatened me with violence. Today I can stand on a busy downtown street and publicly and harshly denounce those who preach god and I am cheered on by seemingly everyone. My three siblings, all devout Christians, hypocrisy and all, routinely condemned and ridiculed me and my children for my atheist point of view. Today their children, all grown are atheists or agnostic in large part by my example. At the founding of our country, non belief was punishable by death in many countries. Today, in most the first world, religion is openly mocked, laughed at as silly superstition. Religion is on the wrong side of history and some people’s imaginary friend (god) is powerless to stop it. As old people die off, so does their belief.
Brioli Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 When I was a child, whenever I stood up and questioned god, people from kids, my parents, other adults all threatened me with violence. Today I can stand on a busy downtown street and publicly and harshly denounce those who preach god and I am cheered on by seemingly everyone. My three siblings, all devout Christians, hypocrisy and all, routinely condemned and ridiculed me and my children for my atheist point of view. Today their children, all grown are atheists or agnostic in large part by my example. At the founding of our country, non belief was punishable by death in many countries. Today, in most the first world, religion is openly mocked, laughed at as silly superstition. Religion is on the wrong side of history and some people’s imaginary friend (god) is powerless to stop it. As old people die off, so does their belief. Ok halfarock, I must say I understand why you feel the way you do. All your life you have had religion shoved down your throat. It feels really good to feel justified because now you can speak out about how you feel, and others actually agree with you. I can say that first off, there is know way a child could even begin to half-way fathom God and what he is about which is probably why children automatically go to heaven if they die. Secondly, I know that many people feel the way you do for the same reasons. You are absolutely correct about organized religion, and history of people who claim they are Christian persecuting people for doing wrong...well because they think they are so perfect and others are sinners.' I have to say that in no way does the Bible condone this type of behavior. Jesus came to teach this very thing to the idiots who thought they were so perfect and were stoning people to death for their sins. Jesus taught this is WRONG!..but the flesh is so strong..that the sin of PRIDE causes people to think they are better then others still, and people who are in a position of power use it to their advantage. This is why your parents never fully understood, nor did the other people you have come into contact with apparently. BUT, that is what I have been trying to say all along. You can not base you belief on what has been done to you by people/humans who are weak in flesh. You must go to God yourself, and give him a chance. The Lord wants to give you a free gift. He wants to give you, mercy, peace, love, understanding, and eternal life. ANd no matter how many good things you do or bad things you do he wants to give this to YOU. I think someone up above said, "that people who have religious beliefs are always setting themselves up for failure" I have to say that I sin just like everyone else. I get a little pissed at myself, but guilt doesn't eat me alive. I know that I am incapable of being like Christ, but at least I desire too. The Lord loves me anyway..just like a "father" would. Which is exactly why we call him "The FATHER"...I like to think of it as a father/child relationship. When a person has a child, they love that child. No matter what that child does 'MOST' parents will always love that child (now notice..I said most...but many are too influenced by the devil to love something truly so kill their kids, disown them, etc...). Parents will try to discipline the child to teach the child whats important and right, but will always love the child even when they fail them and do wrong. Parents love their children unconditionally, as Jesus the Father loves us. That doesn't mean that he gives us whatever we want, because whatever we want isn't always what's best for us. Ok as for people starting to believe there is no God... This is also talked about in the Bible. It is part of what is to happen before the end. Not a Christian in this world can stop it, but we can try to help those learn the truth and discover it on their own so that they can be saved and also have a wonderful relationship with him. I have to disagree that the majority of the new world does not believe. 79% of the World and 86% of Americans are still Christians...Off the record...Isn't it crazy that this many people in my country (USA) still believe this way?..yet we are unable to stop people from taking prayer out of schools, getting rid of the 10 commandments on goverment properity, etc.... These kind of things convince more people like you..that they are correct in their beliefs...but I can tell you these things are talked about...and are to happen before the end. That is why we can't stop it, that is why you interpret it as God being "powerless to stop it". He does not want to stop it...it is part of his plan and the ultimate test. I can also say after 2000 + years people still believe. If this was truly a fairytale of sorts don't you think it would have died out by now. I mean we don't believe in Unicorns. There is a reason people still believe, they have experienced proof, miracles, a feeling inside that could not be felt before, etc... I am one of those people. What is really hard for me ,as a Christian, is that it is such a wonderful thing that I want everyone to have a part of it. To feel what I feel and experience what I have experienced. I also want them to have a place in heaven. That is why I am so passionate about it, and continue with this thread. I mean Halfarock, If I came up to you and handed you 500.00 dollars, and told you I am giving it to you no strings attached because I love you and I know you need it..(dang run-on sentence) Would you not take it? All God wants is for you to open your heart to him, and let him love you. Let him prove to you that he exists and that he loves you unconditionally. He does not expect you to change your ways..at least not right away. He understands that you are human and weak in the flesh. Doing good works and not sinning is not required for God to love you. Believe this...! There are many stories in the Bible that talk of God's love a mercy for his people. New Testament showed quite a few things about God, and helped us to understand more about why he is the way he is..and why things are the way they are. You said: Today, in most the first world, religion is openly mocked, laughed at as silly superstition. As old people die off, so does their belief". The Lords word will never die. It never has since the beginning of time, and it never will. There is too much proof for the people that believe and they know he is real. LUKE 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. ISA 59:21 "As for me, this is my covenant with them," says the Lord. "My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever," says the Lord. As for the science aspect you might want to read, [sIZE=3]The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief (Hardcover) [/sIZE]by [COLOR=#003399]Francis S. Collins[/COLOR] (Author) This is really good. Also..here is an excerpt from the New York Times: Dr. Collins was a nonbeliever until he was 27 - "more and more into the mode of being not only agnostic but being an atheist," as he put it. All that changed after he completed his doctorate in physics and was at work on his medical degree, when he was among those treating a woman dying of heart disease. "She was very clear about her faith and she looked me square in the eye and she said, 'what do you believe?' " he recalled. "I sort of stammered out, 'I am not sure.' " He said he realized then that he had never considered the matter seriously, the way a scientist should. He began reading about various religious beliefs, which only confused him. Finally, a Methodist minister gave him a book, "Mere Christianity," by C. S. Lewis. In the book Lewis, an atheist until he was a grown man, argues that the idea of right and wrong is universal among people, a moral law they "did not make, and cannot quite forget even when they try." This universal feeling, he said, is evidence for the plausibility of God. When he read the book, Dr. Collins said, "I thought, my gosh, this guy is me." Today, Dr. Collins said, he does not embrace any particular denomination, but he is a Christian. Colleagues sometimes express surprise at his faith, he said. "They'll say, 'how can you believe that? Did you check your brain at the door?" But he said he had discovered in talking to students and colleagues that "there is a great deal of interest in this topic." Polling Scientists on Beliefs According to a much-discussed survey reported in the journal Nature in 1997, 70 percent of biologists, physicists and mathematicians said they believed in God - and not just a nonspecific transcendental presence but, as the survey put it, a God to whom one may pray "in expectation of receiving an answer." I must say I have a hard time believing that people with this type of education and background are "ignorant" as some of you have stated here. Anyways.... I hope you give it a chance all of you. Open your minds and your hearts...ask to understand and to learn...but...you must really want to. *Bri
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