love necessity Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 I'm Agnostic. I guess my concept of a "Christian" person is someone who doesn't engage in premarital sex, someone who doesn't drink, smoke, lie(try not too, anyway), etc. What I don't understand, is why people, "lots of people" walk around calling themselves "Christians",yet they don't follow the doctrines set forth in the Bible? Some Christians have premarital sex, use drugs, etc, etc. That's hypocritical. I would like to know other peoples perspective on this. I brought this topic up because I have a friend who just recently got married, and now she considers herself a "reborn" again Christian, yet she goes out like every weekend, smokes pot, etc, etc. I think she's a hypocrite, in fact we laugh about it. Her excuse is I will be forgiven for my sins. I feel that if your going to consider yourself a religious person, stick by rules, don't think that just because your sins are forgiven you should go out and commit one on a daily basis. What's the point in following, when in actuality you don't? Someone please explain this to me. Thanks
love necessity Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 You shall have no other Gods before me. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you. You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s." Here are the commandments, so I believe that if you are "Christian", you follow them.
SierraMarie Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 The point of being a Christian is that you are saved and are going to Heaven and that you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins. The point is not that you are perfect and don't make any mistakes ever. The point is that you are trying. Have you ever tried to be "perfect"? That is the whole point of the Christian faith is that you are a sinner and that you have been saved from your sins.
johan Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 I think on balance it's better to try to be or want to be a good Christian and fail than it is to not bother. Many people, your friend included, don't know what it takes to really follow the faith. Or their hearts may not be in it enough to make the sacrifices required. In the end their hyprocrisy is something they have to live with. The best you can do is to encourage people like your friend to eliminate the hypocrisy. Because you do want to respect them. If not that, then maybe the best you can do is try to understand that people are weak and don't always try their best. Sometimes the feedback of a good friend helps get them back on track. It's good that you notice and expect more, but your best chance for having your expectations met is to only have them for yourself. Others will not be living with your expectations of them in mind.
Nemo Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 Have you ever tried to be "perfect"? I'm living that dream, baby.
love necessity Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 The point of being a Christian is that you are saved and are going to Heaven and that you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins. The point is not that you are perfect and don't make any mistakes ever. The point is that you are trying. Have you ever tried to be "perfect"? That is the whole point of the Christian faith is that you are a sinner and that you have been saved from your sins. I understand what your saying. But, why sin?? Isn't the point of Christianity to try and live a "SINFREE" life? One topic that interests me is "premarital sex", which is prohibited. Why do people have it, then turn around and want to call themselves "Christian". Isn't that using his name in vein???
Chamari Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 Love_necessity, I've got to admit that I'm as baffled as you are about all that. I am Christian and it bothers me when I see people that are involved an a variety of things that (in my mind) contradict what they claim to believe. Now, obviously, people aren't perfect, but there's a difference between those who are trying to be perfect and falling short, than than those who aren't trying at all. Sure, I may slip up once in a while and fudge the truth, but generally I do my best to tell the truth in everyday life. Now, if I said, hey, I've been saved therefore I don't have to worry about my sins therefore it's perfectly fine for me to lie--that's just not right. So basically I think that if you've been 'saved' and use that as an excuse to continue in your sins, then I wouldn't really count you as Christian. However, if you're 'saved' and then are actively striving to overcome your sins and work towards perfection, then you're genuine. Sure, you might slip up once in a while, but there's a big difference between slipping up and deciding to sin.
love necessity Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 Love_necessity, I've got to admit that I'm as baffled as you are about all that. I am Christian and it bothers me when I see people that are involved an a variety of things that (in my mind) contradict what they claim to believe. Now, obviously, people aren't perfect, but there's a difference between those who are trying to be perfect and falling short, than than those who aren't trying at all. Sure, I may slip up once in a while and fudge the truth, but generally I do my best to tell the truth in everyday life. Now, if I said, hey, I've been saved therefore I don't have to worry about my sins therefore it's perfectly fine for me to lie--that's just not right. So basically I think that if you've been 'saved' and use that as an excuse to continue in your sins, then I wouldn't really count you as Christian. However, if you're 'saved' and then are actively striving to overcome your sins and work towards perfection, then you're genuine. Sure, you might slip up once in a while, but there's a big difference between slipping up and deciding to sin. Your comment makes the most sense. Your absolutely right when you say "there's a big difference between slipping up and deciding to sin"... Great view!! I think that's another reason why I decided to become Agnostic, because of all the crap that I see and hear. Children being sexually abused, preachers getting pulled over on DUI's--continuously, "women killing there husbands because "the devil came out", and etc, etc. Christianity, it seems, is no longer a way of living, it's just a word people claim to use as a way of declaring their ground. I thought becoming a Christian, like you said, was someone thriving to be "perfect"? Yet, you have these same "christians" still drinking, still abusing there children, still doing things despite their belief? I think that's bull****. Does anyone even know the meaning of "Christianity" anymore? I'm not even Christian, yet I know the teachings of Jesus.
johan Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 I think that's another reason why I decided to become Agnostic, because of all the crap that I see and hear. Children being sexually abused, preachers getting pulled over on DUI's--continuously, "women killing there husbands because "the devil came out", and etc, etc. Christianity, it seems, is no longer a way of living, it's just a word people claim to use as a way of declaring their ground. I thought becoming a Christian, like you said, was someone thriving to be "perfect"? Yet, you have these same "christians" still drinking, still abusing there children, still doing things despite their belief? I think that's bull****. Does anyone even know the meaning of "Christianity" anymore? I'm not even Christian, yet I know the teachings of Jesus. Do you feel that all Christians are like this, or only some? When you go to church what percentage of the people you see there are so hypocritical?
Tony T Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 1. I guess my concept of a "Christian" person is someone who doesn't engage in premarital sex, someone who doesn't drink, smoke, lie(try not too, anyway), etc. I think this does not accurately reflect Christianity. Jesus Christ taught mostly love and forgiveness. He also endorsed the Ten Commandments. Various religions that have sprang up through the ages have veered off from those central core ideas. 2. What I don't understand, is why people, "lots of people" walk around calling themselves "Christians",yet they don't follow the doctrines set forth in the Bible? Some try. Some forget. Many people here can't even remember to stay on topic in a forum...the VERY FIRST post they make after someone has started a thread is about something else and this happens often. Look around. People are just human. People's attention is poor. Many simply forget they are Christian. Many have very good intentions but their biological mandates taken over. It is very rare to find people going around like Jesus or Mother Theresa. Humans simply aren't built to adhere strictly to anything. Still others are obsessed and they become monks, or worse, pains in the axs. 3. Some Christians have premarital sex, use drugs, etc, etc. That's hypocritical. No, it's not hypocritical...it's human. If the Christ had not realized that people were human and they would sin, he would have had no need to preach and promise forgiveness from those who were truly sorry for having done wrong. In some cases, humans have made laws that punish people for doing wrong. They watch others get severe punishment, even die, and they do the same things anyway. I think it's insanity, not hypocrisy. 4. I would like to know other peoples perspective on this. I brought this topic up because I have a friend who just recently got married, and now she considers herself a "reborn" again Christian, yet she goes out like every weekend, smokes pot, etc, etc. I think you can be reborn and go out an raise hell too. Loving and forgiving can be just as much a part of your life as screwing and drinking. Where the problem comes in is if you expect to be forgiven of your transgressions...yet you do not forgive those those "trespass against you." 5. I think she's a hypocrite, in fact we laugh about it. Her excuse is I will be forgiven for my sins. She may be a bit misinformed there. Her sins will be forgiven if she is truly sorry for them. If she keeps doing the same thing over and over, obviously she is not sorry. Now, it's a matter of judgment whether what she is doing is a sin. While smoking pot may be against local and state ordinances, it may be very acceptable in Christendom. There are religious rules against doing anything in excess...so that may get her there. I think it's just as much of a sin for you to hold yourself up as a judge. Christianity holds that God and God only is the ultimate judge. If people want to do what they want, they know what the consequences are. Since God is very forgiving and totally understands that he put stuff out there to tempt us...I think if all this holds up he'll be pretty lenient. 6. I feel that if your going to consider yourself a religious person, stick by rules, don't think that just because your sins are forgiven you should go out and commit one on a daily basis. What's the point in following, when in actuality you don't? I agree. But history is full of very "religious people" who didn't. Jim Bakker (and his wife, Tammy Faye, who is now dying of cancer) had the PTL Club and one of the largest religious religious theme parks (Heritage USA) in the world at Charlotte, North Carolina. He got in trouble for overselling condos, pocketing the money and for having sex with a church secretary in Room 218 of the Sheraton Sand Key in Clearwater, Florida. He went to jail, Tammy divorced him, and she ended up marrying Jim's friend, Roe Messner, who was the major contractor for their theme park. (The contractor now has cancer too.) Jerry Falwell was had selected by Bakker to run the park after Bakker was jailed. Falwell did nothing but use the situation to condemn Bakker. Falwell is now dead. Bakker is now on TV with his wife preaching the gospel to people who are up at 4 a.m. Jimmy Swaggart, famous television minister, admitted to having sex with prostitutes in New Orleans...not one time...but two times. His ministry went down the tubes and he was disgraced. Hopefully he is forgiven but that's not for us to say. I personally forgive him...I actually don't care. Robert Tilton, a Texas minister, was jailed for fraud after ABC's 20/20 news magazine program disclosed he was taking money out of viewer mail and tossing the accompanying prayer requests straight into the dumpster behind his office. He's paid his dues and is now back on most stations at around 3a.m. He doesn't do much except speak in tongues and ask for money. I still don't know if he reads the prayer requests but people keep sending money to these guys no matter what. To me, many who are agnostic or non-Christian seem to practices Christianity far better than some who are Christian. The Dali Lama, who is the head of the Buddhists (a non-religious sect), loves, respects, forgives, cares for others and generally follows Christian principles, seems to be one of the BEST practitioners of the Christian faith...even though he's not a Christian. One of the greatest Christians of our time was Pope John Paul, who was loving and forgiving to the end. He even visited the jail where the man who shot him in 1981 was being held, prayed with the man and forgave him. There are many who are hypocrites and use beliefs for their convenience. There are many who are great people and their mistakes are truly human. I really don't think you can judge Christianity or any other religion by its people. Just like the many members of this forum, religious people seem to go "off topic" very quickly. All we can do is be kind, gentle and patient with each other and let each man work out his destiny in his own way, in his own time.
love necessity Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 Do you feel that all Christians are like this, or only some? When you go to church what percentage of the people you see there are so hypocritical? Lady, don't get me wrong! Why would I feel like all Christians are like this? I don't know all the"Christians" in the world to feel this way. Like I said, it's what I see on TV, hear from people, etc, etc is how I form my view on this topic.
Tony T Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 Lady, don't get me wrong! Why would I feel like all Christians are like this? I don't know all the"Christians" in the world to feel this way. Like I said, it's what I see on TV, hear from people, etc, etc is how I form my view on this topic. I don't think Johan is a lady! If you seriously get your feel of the world from what you see on TV or hear from people you are living dangerously. Yes, most people do that. However, television is biased and there are time constraints. If you get your world view from Court TV, everybody murders their wife. If you get your world view from CNN or MSNBC, the whole world is at war, flooding, rotting, falling apart and leaders are getting indicted for being crooks. These channels don't report the 99.9 percent of everything that's going right. It terrifies me that you listen to people at all. Let them say what they may, let it go in one ear and out they other...because it's likely they get their world view just like you do...and start doing serious research with a very open mind. Even then, it's not likely you'll ever know exactly what's going on. Look at the President of the United States...he has access to all kinds of information and he doesn't have a clue. You could probably tell him a thing or two.
high_boost Posted July 9, 2007 Posted July 9, 2007 hypocrites indeed. they put up a facade to go to heaven just incase there really is one. and another thing. this country needs to stop wasting its money trying to build a church on every street corner. it needs to be spent on repairing or replacing our schools or maybe feeding and clothing the homeless. i could think of a number of ways to spend it that would do way more for this country than a house full of fairy tale believing hypocrites will ever do. all religion does is divide. sad sad sad
alphamale Posted July 9, 2007 Posted July 9, 2007 I feel that if your going to consider yourself a religious person, stick by rules, don't think that just because your sins are forgiven you should go out and commit one on a daily basis. What's the point in following, when in actuality you don't? one problem is that following all the rules of any religion are almost impossible. this applies to ALL religions, not just Christianity. Religion would mean totally nothing unless the bar was set so high and almost unattainable. but I do agree, if you can't follow most of the rules then don't call yourself a religious person.
quankanne Posted July 9, 2007 Posted July 9, 2007 my two cents? It's easy to get caught up in trying to hold someone to "the rules" and making fun of someone when they break them. However, those really shouldn't be the rules that we strive to live our lives by, but rather the rule of love and forgiveness, as Tony points out (BTW, great initial post, dude). you posted the Ten Commandments, found in the Old Testament, but if you follow Jesus' teachings, you understand that he boiled down those ten not-so easy-to-keep laws into just two: Love God, and love one another. Because out of the love that flows into a relationship with God comes a love for mankind – the stuff that inspires people to want to make the world a better place for mankind. so instead of being scandalized at how others fail to "be" good Christians because they screw around or drink excessively or have raging hate in their heart for a people they don't know, try to see it in terms of the mandates that Jesus asks of man, of loving and forgiving human nature. Isn't the point of Christianity to try and live a "SINFREE" life? that's the point of trying to live a Godly life, dear. And in the whole scheme of things, what's the greater sin – boinking some chick you picked up in a bar after getting shxt-faced, or harboring a murderous hate for a sibling you cannot bring yourself to forgive? It all goes back to love and forgiveness: When your relationship with God is the result of mutual love, then it naturally flows to your relationship with others, and suddenly, forgiveness isn't such a foreign concept. One topic that interests me is "premarital sex", which is prohibited. Why do people have it, then turn around and want to call themselves "Christian". Isn't that using his name in vain??? what's the hang-up about sin and Christianity? Sin doesn't make one any less a Christian, and being a Christian doesn't make someone less sinful. A person's spirituality is a work in progress, and there are going to be stains and smears and messy spots, but that's all right, because God understands that's sometimes how it's going to be – even though we are made in his image and carry his divine imprint, he knows that we also are tempted to do things to hurt our relationship with him and with others. Which is where the love and forgiveness thing come into play.
Brioli Posted July 9, 2007 Posted July 9, 2007 I'm Agnostic. I guess my concept of a "Christian" person is someone who doesn't engage in premarital sex, someone who doesn't drink, smoke, lie(try not too, anyway), etc. What I don't understand, is why people, "lots of people" walk around calling themselves "Christians",yet they don't follow the doctrines set forth in the Bible? Some Christians have premarital sex, use drugs, etc, etc. That's hypocritical. I would like to know other peoples perspective on this. I brought this topic up because I have a friend who just recently got married, and now she considers herself a "reborn" again Christian, yet she goes out like every weekend, smokes pot, etc, etc. I think she's a hypocrite, in fact we laugh about it. Her excuse is I will be forgiven for my sins. I feel that if your going to consider yourself a religious person, stick by rules, don't think that just because your sins are forgiven you should go out and commit one on a daily basis. What's the point in following, when in actuality you don't? Someone please explain this to me. Thanks [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Someone please explain this to me.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Thanks[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Ok, I will do my best to explain this.[/sIZE][/FONT] [sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]First of all the bible states, that we are 'all' sinners and fall short of the glory of God-Romans 3:23[/FONT][/sIZE] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Do you know what that means? It means that no one is perfect and everyone has their weaknesses which cause them to sin.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]For example: You may have someone who is an avid church goer. They do not swear, they do not drink, and they do not smoke. On the outside they come across as being the poster person for Jesus. But....inside they are constantly looking at the poor people in their church wishing they would stop attending there because they are making the church look bad. Judging others is a sin, and so is believing you are above all others. It's the reason Jesus got so upset with the high priests in the churches during his time.[/sIZE][/FONT] [sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]MAT 23:6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues (churches);[/FONT][/sIZE] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Mat 23:7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Mat 23:11 The greatest among you will be your servant.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Mat 23:12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Mat 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law (priests or rabbis) and Pharisees (government people), you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]I am not justifying your friend’s actions, because if she is doing things that are well within her control then she should stop. If she is an alcoholic or drug addict..addicted to nicotine etc... she needs to pray about it, which hopefully she is doing. The Lord works with all of us and our sins in due time. I think you need to focus on the fact that she is making an effort to follow the Lord, and she is saved. [/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]As for being agnostic, I think maybe you haven't educated yourself enough on the ways of the Lord. People don't stop sinning because they are saved or attending church. Being saved is by the grace of God alone, the reason for attending church is to feed the soul which keeps you focused on him and wanting to better yourself.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Also, you don't become perfect either, and then the Lord accepts you.. it's the other way around. You accept the Lord first, and then he works within you making you want to do and be better.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]I have to be honest here, it bothers me when people...especially those that don't have a faith, say something like you just did. I mean the statement, "How can you call yourself a Christian if you do this and that?" First of all, Christianity is not a behavior it is a belief. It is what you "Believe" not how you act. Just because people sin does not mean they are not a Christian, and you better believe that everyone sins....it may be hidden where the outside world doesn't know...but they do.[/sIZE][/FONT] [sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Mat 23:25“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self[/FONT][FONT=MS Mincho]‑[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman]indulgence.[/FONT][/sIZE] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]God says that not one sin is greater then the other (that means in his eyes the liar is just as bad as the murder and vice-a-versa), and his number one commandment is to love him above all else, and then love your neighbor as yourself.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Everyone is in their own walk with God...Have you ever heard that saying? What it means is they have a relationship with him...they talk to him on a regular basis, they recognize his work in their life and others. When good things happen to them, they give him credit for it. When bad things happen, they have faith and trust that the Lord will bring them through it and it will get better. Christians recognize what is evil and what is good. Christians can feel God's love for them, and are very content with their life usually.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]That is truly what it means to be a Christian. Sometimes God will use people, like your friend, to reach others that may be unreachable. I mean she may be in a bar drinking, when she ends up discussing the Lord with someone...which ultimately results in that person being saved.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Luke 6:37 "Do not judge and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. [/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]I would hope your friend doesn't sit around thinking..."It's ok; I am saved and can do whatever I want". If she really believes in the Lord she does not think this way. It may just be she is unable to give it up right now; the Lord will work within her and her desires for these behaviors. She will begin to enjoy it less and less...and even begin to feel guilty. Just remember you don't necessarily know what is going on in her mind and heart. You are on the outside.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]I hope this helped.[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]God Bless,[/sIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]*Bri[/sIZE][/FONT]
Walk Posted July 9, 2007 Posted July 9, 2007 The Christians I've known, who acted similiar to this lady friend of yours, weren't with the church because they wanted to be perfect. It was more like they were drawn by the feeling of being accept, of being forgiven for not being perfect, a place where you could talk to the pastor without having to pay $100 bucks an hour for his advice... Different reasons, but most of them had to do with wanting to feel as though they were part of a greater good. Not to give up drinking, smoking and gambling... Or things they enjoy. I don't care one way or the other. As long as they aren't preaching to me about my behavior or beliefs, then we get along.
love necessity Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 "First of all the bible states, that we are 'all' sinners and fall short of the glory of God-Romans 3:23" Your quoting a verse from the bible, as though you actually go by the bible. You don't live by the bible, or probably even try too--like most Christians, so why even waste your time trying to quote verses to me? Just my opinion, which I'm entitled too. It means that no one is perfect and everyone has their weaknesses I know nobody is perfect. Everyone has their issues. For example: You may have someone who is an avid church goer. They do not swear, they do not drink, and they do not smoke. On the outside they come across as being the poster person for Jesus. But....inside they are constantly looking at the poor people in their church wishing they would stop attending there because they are making the church look bad. Well, that's something I sure don't do, because I don't even go to church. So, I'm good. Judging others is a sin Yeah, well since the bible says that judging is a sin, then why are there like 200 different churches in my community that segregate people by color, financial background, political views, etc, etc. From what I've read about "Christianity", it's supposed to be about accepting, and that sure isn't what I see. Then people wonder why some people don't put themselves in the middle of religion. I'm not saying all "Christians" are like this, but most don't follow Christianity. MAT 23:6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues (churches); Mat 23:7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi. Mat 23:11 The greatest among you will be your servant. Mat 23:12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. Mat 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law (priests or rabbis) and Pharisees (government people), you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. You sound like a "bible beater"..Please don't preach your verses to me! Do you even know what half the stuff you wrote even means?? I am not justifying your friend’s actions, because if she is doing things that are well within her control then she should stop. If she is an alcoholic or drug addict..addicted to nicotine etc... she needs to pray about it, which hopefully she is doing. The Lord works with all of us and our sins in due time. I think you need to focus on the fact that she is making an effort to follow the Lord, and she is saved. First of all, she's not an alcoholic, and not addicted to anything. You really believe that someone is making an effort to become at Christian, yet after church on Sunday the same person heads straight to the bar? As for being agnostic, I think maybe you haven't educated yourself enough on the ways of the Lord. I am very educated on Christianity and where the belief came from. However, I chose to believe in science, something that I can physical hold and see with my naked eye. I don't dislike the belief of GOD, or something greater than this universe, and I don't mean to come off that way. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone, because what a person believes, is what they believe, and it gets them through life. But, I also believe that religion has separated people for thousands of years, which is why it will never have my belief. People don't stop sinning because they are saved or attending church. My point exactly. People walk around saying they believe in "Christianity", yet they don't follow or even try to follow the Ten Commandments? Which are the foundation of Christianity. Being saved is by the grace of God alone, the reason for attending church is to feed the soul which keeps you focused on him and wanting to better yourself. I think church is more like a brainwashing ritual. I really do. Like the person a couple posts ahead of me said, instead of building all these churches, which seperate people even more, why not use the money to help under privileged children or us it towards charity? No, but I forgot, churches need to have gold trimming on the walls and central air, so that they can attract more people to bring in even more offering. If anything church drives away the poor, and makes them feel bad for not being able to offer. I have to be honest here, it bothers me when people...especially those that don't have a faith, say something like you just did. I mean the statement, "How can you call yourself a Christian if you do this and that?" First of all, Christianity is not a behavior it is a belief. I know it's a belief. And the belief also comes with believing in the Ten Commandments, which are supposed to be followed, yet most "Christians" don't. That is why I find it hard to believe in something man came up with. Not even most Christians can follow those commandments, and there not even hard. People don't have to lie or "sin", it's by choice. It is what you "Believe" not how you act. Just because people sin does not mean they are not a Christian, and you better believe that everyone sins....it may be hidden where the outside world doesn't know...but they do. You've said this repeatedly. God says that not one sin is greater then the other (that means in his eyes the liar is just as bad as the murder and vice-a-versa), and his number one commandment is to love him above all else, and then love your neighbor as yourself. Wow, and if you really believe that telling a fib is just as bad as taking someones life, then you need to seek help, professional help. Very soon! When good things happen to them, they give him credit for it. When bad things happen, they have faith and trust that the Lord will bring them through it and it will get better. Christians recognize what is evil and what is good. Christians can feel God's love for them, and are very content with their life usually. And your saying people who don't believe in God, aren't content? That is truly what it means to be a Christian. Sometimes God will use people, like your friend, to reach others that may be unreachable. I mean she may be in a bar drinking, when she ends up discussing the Lord with someone...which ultimately results in that person being saved. How are you so certain God works through other people? Luke 6:37 "Do not judge and you will not be judged. That's usually how it is, but not because the bible says so. I would hope your friend doesn't sit around thinking..."It's ok; I am saved and can do whatever I want". If she really believes in the Lord she does not think this way. Excuse me, it's not just her, it's all "Christian", because even you just said "we are 'all' sinners". So what is it? Like I said, the Ten Commandment aren't impossible to live by. So, why do you and the rest of the Christian population keep on breaking the law, that you and the rest supposedly believe in? It may just be she is unable to give it up right now; the Lord will work within her and her desires for these behaviors. Ha...FAT CHANCE...She even said she wasn't giving up her old ways!! Just remember you don't necessarily know what is going on in her mind and heart. You are on the outside.She will begin to enjoy it less and less...and even begin to feel guilty. You don't either, yet you act like you're so sure!
Brioli Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 WOW! I am surprised by the defensiveness, and I was only trying to help. Why do you feel the need to be defensive? I have not once pointed a finger at you other then to say you are very misguided in your perceptions of Christianity. I feel sorry that these 200 churches you spoke about seem so messed up, but I do wonder if you actually visited all 200 of these churches you are talking about? Somehow I doubt it since you are agnostic. It's really not fair to form an opinion that you have not seen for yourself. I am in agreement with you on organized religion to some degree, but I have formed my own opinions and yes I have read the bible many times so forgive me for quoting scripture, but I felt I needed to back up what I was saying . I feel that if you want to truly understand Christianity I suggest you pick up a bible (a newer version like NIV) and read for yourself. Because...when you ask a question like "Why are the churches so hypocritical, political, etc...?" it somewhat bothersome seeing as how that question was already answered in my response to your post. I also didn't say that a liar is worse then a murderer in my opinion they are not...HOWEVER, in GOD'S opinion it is one in the same. Then again, if you believe in heaven and that our life here is temporary...I can see how it would not matter much to GOD if the person was a murderer or a liar. They are all ultimately coming to him for judgement. I do make an effort to follow what the Lord teaches It never ceases to amaze me how non-believers get so defensive when you speak of Christianity. It's almost like the plague! Then again the bible says they will and do. I am in know way trying to offend you or talk down to you. I was simply trying to explain how it works to someone who obviously doesn't know..and no I do not mean that to be ugly. It just shows in your original question and what you have written here towards and against me. As for the Science argument...I must say that to me Science proves the existence of God, not the other way around. It's shocking that you say you only believe in what you can "see and hold" with the naked eye it's quite surprising...I mean can you see and hold air? What about a microbe, molecule, atom, space, carbon dioxide, cell phone waves, radio waves, I could go on but I won't. To address any above questions you had: I am so sure the Lord works through people because I have felt him in me, and seen him in others. No, I did not mean in any way that people who don't believe are not content in the life...however...I have seen more unbelievers dissatisfied then believers, and based on your reaction to my post...you come across as a very angry and upset individual "You sound like a "bible beater"..Please don't preach your verses to me! Do you even know what half the stuff you wrote even means??" (I mean to fuss at me because I use scripture to back up what I was saying..big deal..it was for reference purposes in case anyone wanted to look it up. I mean do you fuss about research papers and books that use references?) and yes...I know exactly what they mean What do you mean about the judging statement...and why do you say it is usually that way, but not because the bible says so? Excuse me, it's not just her, it's all "Christian", because even you just said "we are 'all' sinners". So what is it? Like I said, the Ten Commandment aren't impossible to live by. So, why do you and the rest of the Christian population keep on breaking the law, that you and the rest supposedly believe in? As for the 10 commandments...if you read the bible at all you would realize it is not all about the 10 commandments. That is old testament scripture. It still holds true, but...well you need to read the bible for yourself. Also, it is not fair for you to say that all Christians do not live by the 10 commandments either. I mean for example the 10 commandments do not mention premarital sex. As a matter of fact, in Moses's time (10 commandments time) men were allowed more then one wife too. There is much more to the bible then just the 10 commandments. As for me not knowing your friend either??? I can say that if she truly believes in God then I know for a fact this will happen. The holy spirit has a way of haunting you and taking the desire out of it....but let me clarify, if you have no desire to please the Lord then he won't do anything for you. I was just simply stating that no one knows what goes on in the mind and heart of different people. and let me finish this by saying...I think it's a shame you base your belief of Christianity on how 'human beings'' behave that call themselves Christians. I truly recommend that you at least read the bible, and give God a chance. Don't base your belief of him on others actions. Please... and please don't come back saying you already have and are educated. I can clearly see you haven't and that you are not. Have a nice evening.
Brioli Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 OH I must add this too..you said, "Your quoting a verse from the bible, as though you actually go by the bible. You don't live by the bible, or probably even try too--like most Christians, so why even waste your time trying to quote verses to me? Just my opinion, which I'm entitled too." Don't you think that is a bit hypocritical? I mean the rest of your post says you believe the exact opposite of that statement. You said all Christians don't follow the bible. hmmmm....well good luck to you anyhow *Bri
Brioli Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 ack..forgive me but I must say a few more things.... The stuff going on with our churches today is the same exact thing that was going on with the churches in Jesus's time. So I do feel you on the churches, but they ARE NOT all like that... Churches are made up of many different people, and you can believe that some of those people are not good people from God. 1JO 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: According to scripture we are not all God's children, goes into it a bit on the Cain and Abel story as well. Anyways, you are going to find Satan's spawn in churches trying to do exactly what they have done to you. Discredit the church and it's members. I walk by my faith and my relationship with God alone. I will not allow any church member or other person tell me about my relationship with him fore they are mere humans, but unfortuantley we have many people that do and for the reason stated above as well as people need to feel accepted, better then others, etc....and I could get real deep on this but I am tired and on eastern time. But suffice it to say it has alot to do with Satan's work here on earth and you can get a deeper understanding of why this is by reading the bible. If you don't believe, well it's my understanding agnostic people neither believe nor disbelieve, but why do you care so much about your friend heading to the bar after church? I mean truly what difference does it make if she follows God's laws or not...since in your opinion (which to me is closer to athiest since you only believe in what you can see and hold) it's all a load of baloney? I really find that interesting, but then again not really. People who say they don't believe..yet feel an overwheming conviction of something. It's like the man who doesn't believe in God, but when he is about to die...He begins praying for his life (almost like a reflex). How many times do you find yourself saying things like, "God why me"? or "God I can't take it" or "God this is great"! It's in our nature...he is a part of us and we a part of him. Somebody once said to me...and I think it makes perfect sense, "I would rather believe in God, die, and find out he is not real, then to not believe in God, die, and find out he is"!
high_boost Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 It never ceases to amaze me how non-believers get so defensive when you speak of Christianity. It's almost like the plague! Then again the bible says they will and do. i think thats partly because us "non-believers" think rationally and wonder what must be going through your head for you to believe something so irrational and flawed. but thats just my take on it. its like i want you to open your eyes and forget what youve been fed since birth and think for yourself. lol welcome to the matrix!!! not "As for the Science argument...I must say that to me Science proves the existence of God, not the other way around. " im really curious as to how science proves the existence of god to you??
love necessity Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 I apologize if I offended anyone, I guess I will never really understand religion. It wasn't instilled into as "important" growing up, but yeah, totally apologize for this one! Hope you find it in your heart to forgive me!!
halfarock Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 Religion is just made up BS, there is no god. It is all silliness. Thus whatever anyone believes is tempered by their own situation and wants. I’ve met a lot of people who were horrible people but convinced themselves that they were good and going to heaven because they believed. Belief isn’t a virtue. It’s ignorance, It’s what ever you want it to be.
lonelybird Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 I'm Agnostic. I guess my concept of a "Christian" person is someone who doesn't engage in premarital sex, someone who doesn't drink, smoke, lie(try not too, anyway), etc. What I don't understand, is why people, "lots of people" walk around calling themselves "Christians",yet they don't follow the doctrines set forth in the Bible? Some Christians have premarital sex, use drugs, etc, etc. That's hypocritical. I would like to know other peoples perspective on this. I brought this topic up because I have a friend who just recently got married, and now she considers herself a "reborn" again Christian, yet she goes out like every weekend, smokes pot, etc, etc. I think she's a hypocrite, in fact we laugh about it. Her excuse is I will be forgiven for my sins. I feel that if your going to consider yourself a religious person, stick by rules, don't think that just because your sins are forgiven you should go out and commit one on a daily basis. What's the point in following, when in actuality you don't? Someone please explain this to me. Thanks Christians have all kinds of ideas how to be a Christian. Even if we have same idea, there are different stages: new born baby christian, developing christian, and mature christian...in a word, in a process of growing to be a mature Christian, and different people is on different point of this road. (maybe you just caught a baby Christian, if you decide to choose a religion or not, to set your eyes on people really isn't the answer. We should set our eyes on Jesus who is the only one on earth is perfect) Some believe in Jesus is the savior, but deny God's power. deny Holy Spirit. Some think they don't have to stick to the commandments and God will "understand", (this is one misunderstanding which will cost them much) Jesus teach us "if you love me, you will obey my commandments" "many will knock the door of kingdom of heaven, yet no one answered the door, Lord replied 'I don't know you'" Here is talking about a christian has a personal relationship with Lord, if lack of this relationship, Lord will say "I don't know you". If you have this relationship, changing begin from within. Some even think that other religions can lead people to God also. This is a non-offensive way, but is very far from Lord teaching. I didn't mean force others to believe, what can be harmful to just SPEAK OUT the truth? Truth is saving, but to hide truth is NOT saving. Lord ever talked about unfaithful servant who hide his light under the table. Some is genuinly trying to obey the commandment, but failed. This world should be divided. LIGHT and DARKNESS. those who don't choose God, and don't want God in their lives, finally after death they will go to a place without light, without love, seperate from God, called Sheol So many ideas, how can we know which one is true? Read Bible and do a research on Bible, not on people, not hear this and that
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