Ladyjane14 Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 Aside - LJ - how long has it been for you since you found out? You seem very collected in your thinking. Over three years. And I can afford to be "collected" in comparison to some of you ladies. I dealt with an EA rather than a PA. We've had threads here debating which is worse. All I can tell you is that I caught him two weeks short of making it 'official'. ...and still, I lost twenty pounds in a month. Everything I thought I knew throughout my adult life was turned on it's head. But if I hadn't caught him when I did, we'd be divorced now.... because I didn't know then what I know today. Sure as the world is round, I'd have given him the boot and never looked back. For me, the PA is decidedly worse due to the "cootie factor". At the time... I couldn't have gotten past that. Post-recovery though, I can see why people choose to attempt reconciliation. When it works out... it's fabulous. :bunny:
Love is Tragic Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 What a terrible situation, i am so sorry!! I can only imagine how trapped you must feel now that you know the truth. Especially living in a new state and not knowing ANYONE. What a jerk-off! Can you see how much life insurance he has and just hire someone to do the deed? lol.. but seriously it must make you sick even looking at him, and youre stuck with only him, arggghhh!! Only thing i know to tell you is find a job, save up, be 'polite' to him and then quietly leave one day. Or at least save enough for a plane ticket back home.
Author Lynna Posted July 9, 2007 Author Posted July 9, 2007 I'm sure you have seen the book referred to, but go buy "After the Affair" by Janet Abrams-Springs. I just ordered it last week, it shipped on Saturday so it should arrive soon. Everyone has said so much about it, I am looking forward to it. I ordered the "companion" book too, How do I forigive you too. I thought that might help me let this go since that is really all I can do right now. As LJ pointed out earlier, I need to be myself, not this paranoid basket-case that I have become! Your H has long standing issues that have lead to his behavior. You are not one of those issues. You are perhaps the thing that makes him want to be a better man and to finally get some help. Thanks! That made me feel better! He has not said those words directly, but last night as I was moving some boxes around and slipped, he did say very sincerely, to be careful "I could not stand to loose you" and then he hugged me very hard. He was really sincere! If I am his motivation then I sure hope it works quickly! I want to get back to a more normal existence! (Although, the older I get the more I think that "normal" is a utopia word that really does not exist! ) Make sure he stays in the therapy. Based on my experience, you will need a separate MC. They don't want to appear to take sides. Thanks for the recommendation about the therapy. I have never been before so I did not know how that works. We definitely have to see what is covered and how with his insurance, but we will definitely keep that in mind. That is true, I don't want a therapist who DOES take sides! The down side of that, is that they all think they can have sex with no feeling with OW, but the very act of having sex usually makes them feel closer emotionally. Yeah, and he even admitted that in a sense, though he also tried to tell me that the sex with the OW meant nothing. After I caught him the first time I asked him whether he loved the OW. (Stupid question I know!) And he said "in a way" but that he was not "in love" with her. So he admits that there is an emotional bond on one hand and then tries to tell me that the sex did not mean anything on the other. Clearly he is conflicted. And I have read enough online here and on other websites so I know that the WS typically thinks that they "love" the OW/OM in some sense of the word and that often (though certainly not always) that is a misplaced lust or something else. So I am hoping that in therapy he can really work out what love is and figure out what he really felt about the OW as compared to me. It is going to be tough to have the patience for all of this! It is going to be a long, tough road. But, I guess it could be worse right! Wow, I must be healing somewhat to be able to admit that. Because in the throes of discovery it sure feels like it could not be any worse. Thanks for the support and advice smartgirl!
Author Lynna Posted July 9, 2007 Author Posted July 9, 2007 Post-recovery though, I can see why people choose to attempt reconciliation. When it works out... it's fabulous. Isn't it interesting how the more experiences in life that we collect, the more mature and informed our decisions are. Wouldn't it be great if we could benefit from that maturity when we are younger. Seems life would be simpler that way. But then again, maybe not. Kids are supposed to be carefree and innocent right? The only way we gain that maturity and insight is through the trials as well as the tribulations of life. Ah well. It is all a cycle.
Author Lynna Posted July 9, 2007 Author Posted July 9, 2007 What a jerk-off! Actually, I would have preferred that he have been that rather than being the f**k[h]er that he was/is!
Melissa277 Posted July 9, 2007 Posted July 9, 2007 Hi Lynna. I was out of town for the weekend. Just got caught up. Glad to hear you're doing better ... I hope he realizes how lucky he is. Melissa
JustBreathe Posted July 9, 2007 Posted July 9, 2007 Oh he's lucky alright. He has a wife who doesn't demand real change from him. Who believes his weak explanations and excuses and turns a blind eye. Stomachs her own pain not matter how sick and sad and insecure it makes her. Puts his needs before her own, ignores her own, because they are somehow not as important as his. I do not mean to hurt you, Lynna. I only want you to see that a doormat gets stepped on, over and over again, until she decides she is worth more than that, has more inside her. Is stronger than she used to think and can do just fine without a cheating man. With much respect - maybe.. just maybe.. the one who needs therapy now is you, Lynna. Why do you let him do this to you? Consider whether you are enabling his behavior by not expecting more from him? Why should he give more if you only cry yet take him back time and time again? For all his so called weakness, he is not a child, is he? A grown up must be responsible for their actions and strive to improve themselves SINCERELY. I say, kick the man out again. Find the strength inside you. Focus on yourself and what you need for once, not his endless suffering. Go no contact for 6 months, then see how you feel. 2 cents from a reformed doormat who learned the hard painful way. I hope pray your experience will not be like mine. God bless you and keep you healthy and safe.
Melissa277 Posted July 9, 2007 Posted July 9, 2007 Oh he's lucky alright. He has a wife who doesn't demand real change from him. Who believes his weak explanations and excuses and turns a blind eye. Stomachs her own pain not matter how sick and sad and insecure it makes her. Puts his needs before her own, ignores her own, because they are somehow not as important as his. I do not mean to hurt you, Lynna. I only want you to see that a doormat gets stepped on, over and over again, until she decides she is worth more than that, has more inside her. Is stronger than she used to think and can do just fine without a cheating man. With much respect - maybe.. just maybe.. the one who needs therapy now is you, Lynna. Why do you let him do this to you? Consider whether you are enabling his behavior by not expecting more from him? Why should he give more if you only cry yet take him back time and time again? For all his so called weakness, he is not a child, is he? A grown up must be responsible for their actions and strive to improve themselves SINCERELY. I say, kick the man out again. Find the strength inside you. Focus on yourself and what you need for once, not his endless suffering. Go no contact for 6 months, then see how you feel. 2 cents from a reformed doormat who learned the hard painful way. I hope pray your experience will not be like mine. God bless you and keep you healthy and safe. Justbreathe, I don't disagree with most of what you said. That's what I mean by him being lucky. I just wanted Lynna to know she has some support because she's all alone ... in a strange place with no car, no job, and no family or friends as they just moved like last Thursday. I didn't want to rip her apart as she's going through enough right now. Geeeezz.
JustBreathe Posted July 9, 2007 Posted July 9, 2007 Sorry if I came off critical, Melissa. I don't want to tear her down, or anyone else, at a time when the last thing you need is more grief. If I came off harsh, Lynna, it was unintended. Again, God bless you and I sympathize with what you're feeling, honestly, I do. Take good care of yourself.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 9, 2007 Posted July 9, 2007 Can't believe he did this stuff behind my back and can't get over the depression over it. I feel like our intimacy is dead and I can't be close to him anymore. He looks sad. Has gained alot of weight. But claims he wants his marriage and will do whatever it takes. Why can't I forgive? I feel like I'm going through the motions. I don't want to break up my family. My kids love their dad. What to do? What would YOU do? This is from a post from just breate a while back on her own thread. I was actually just reading this thread earlier as it talks alot about where I am right now. Often we are just in a different place in the same cycle. It's important for us to realize that and not feel so attacked when someone is at a different place. I think that we can all appreciate though, the type of love and compassion that go into even considering making an attempt to forgive as well as the need to protect oneself from the worst betrayal we have ever k nown. It becomes a personal battle within oneself. There is no right or wrong. At some point though one realizes that when they have given every imaginalbe chance that if they don't "save" their selves then no one is going to. The thing that bothers me the most about these threads is that the "H" who wants (all of a sudden) his M over all else, SAY EXACTLY THE SAME THING! I could have written the "he said this and that" verbatim. That part truly bothers me. Though I guess its no different from the fact that I could have written any post by any BS at any stage of the cycle! Its strange to hear the same words you've spoken over and over. Good luck Lynna, and you too Just breathe.
Ladyjane14 Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 I'm noticing some concern for whether you're going to get hurt again, Lynna. I can't blame these ladies for worrying about you. It's a legitimate concern.... You might get your feelings hurt again. But when you think about it, that comes with the territory when dealing with romantic love. You could pitch this guy, and the NEXT one might be a dud too. These girls are right though in telling you that most of these MM/cheater squall like a baby when they're caught. Really, it doesn't tell you a thing about their character, and it doesn't predict future behavior. Some are REALLY sorry... and some aren't. Your choices are: To give him the boot. (Bear in mind... you have an absolute RIGHT to do that if it's what you want.) To try for recovery. Or, to take whatever time you need in deciding between the previous two choices... remaining CLEARLY noncommital in your communications with your spouse. What I don't agree with is floating along without making a choice. As I said before, I believe ANYTHING you go after in a half-assed manner can only come out "half-assed". So... whatever you decide, give it your 100% effort. If you're still predisposed to 'trying for recovery', I think it's important that you recognize WHY the betrayed spouse has to step up to the plate and put in so much hard work.. and if you think about it, it only stands to reason that it's so. Wayward spouses are persons with alot of "don't have's. They don't have relationship skills, or they don't have coping skills, or they don't have self-esteem, or empathy, or character, or any number of other things. We're talking about people with deficits in terms of healthy, monogamous, relationships. And while it's only justice that the guy who 'makes the mess' be the one to clean it up... how realistic is that? I'm thinking it's like asking a 4 year old who crayoned on your wall to give you a good paint job. S/he's not equipped for the task. It's NOT fair that betrayed spouses shoulder so much of the burden when it comes to reconciliation. But when you think about it, who's got their head screwed on wrong, the cheat-er or the cheat-ee??? Anyway, all I'm saying is this... WHATEVER you decide, go after it like you know no fear. Cover your bases, certainly. Have a back-up plan. But don't allow your fears to be what stops you from achieving whatever goal you set for yourself.
child_of_isis Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 This almost sounds like...if H is having an A, show him plenty of good times in bed so as to keep him emotionally close. Then he will not get emotionally close to OW. H+A= good sex with both W and OW. Wow! A man can't go wrong there. But getting back to the sex! It is important and the book tells you why. It is critically important to the man in terms of feeling accepted and loved. Sex is one of the only ways a lot of them can let their guard down and feel free to feel. The down side of that, is that they all think they can have sex with no feeling with OW, but the very act of having sex usually makes them feel closer emotionally. So you don't want to be out of that loop! .
Author Lynna Posted July 10, 2007 Author Posted July 10, 2007 He has a wife who doesn't demand real change from him. Oh I am demanding real change from him. He is going to an IC and I am insisting that we have MC as well. I am also insisting that he be checked for STDs. He says that is not necessary as nothing happened. I say it is necessary if he wants any future sexual relations with me. I am standing firm on both of those points. I am not staying without him making and effort and taking responsbility for himself. Puts his needs before her own, ignores her own, because they are somehow not as important as his. Yes, my needs are equally as important as his. But, one of my basic personality traits is the need to not abandon someone who is in a desparate situation. I could not live with myself if I walked out on him right now and he took some desparate action. And his reaction the other night was TRULY sincere. I almost took him to the emergency room because he broke down so severely. He finally let out his pent up depression and pain. No, he never made me feel unsafe for myself, but he scared me for him, he is in SERIOUS need of assistance and now we both realize it. The dam came down and the flood waters gushed. I only want you to see that a doormat gets stepped on, over and over again, until she decides she is worth more than that, has more inside her. Is stronger than she used to think and can do just fine without a cheating man. I know that I do not want to be a doormat. I also know that I can survive without him, though it would not be easily emotionally. I lived alone for most of my life, I am actually very independant. So I know that I could do it again. It is the emotional loss that would be so difficult. With much respect - maybe.. just maybe.. the one who needs therapy now is you, Lynna. Oh, undoubtedly I do. I think that I did enable his behavior early on, at least to some extent. I am already working on establishing boundaries to prevent that again. I have planned on getting IC as soon as possible, I planned that as soon as I found out about the first time. The problem is, right now I do not have insurance as I don't have a job. I had it preciously through my old job before moving here, but I did not want to start with a therapist there for only a few months and then have to start all over again. So unfortunately that is on hold at the moment. I am reading several different self-help and affair books and looking seriously at my behavior. But I do plan to seek my own counseling outside of his and outside of MC. A grown up must be responsible for their actions and strive to improve themselves SINCERELY. He has made the IC appointment, all on his own, after the last escapade. So he does realize that he has a problem. He is trying to improve himself. He is now emailing me when he gets to work and calling or emailing to let me know he is on his way home. He did that voluntarily. He also invited me to a work event and then another time when he went out with his friends, so he is trying to make efforts. We will see what happens and if he is able to follow through with all this. I do appreciate your advice. I know it was well intentioned and not meant to be an attack. I am seriously thinking about the issues you raised. I am trying to ensure that I not be a doormat while still trying to follow through with what I see as my basic responsibilities morally as a human being.
Author Lynna Posted July 10, 2007 Author Posted July 10, 2007 I'm noticing some concern for whether you're going to get hurt again, Lynna. I can't blame these ladies for worrying about you. It's a legitimate concern.... You might get your feelings hurt again. Yep, all life is like that right? We will assuredly be hurt many times in life, by a spouse, by family, by friends, work, even perfect strangers. Without the pain we can't appreciate the beauty. Yes, that is important to remember. These girls are right though in telling you that most of these MM/cheater squall like a baby when they're caught. You know, I do have to give him credit for one thing. He apolgizes to me, he tells me that he does not want me to leave and that I am his world, but he does not beg me to stay. He lets me know that he really does love me, but he also says that I am too good for him, that I don't deserve him, and that he won't stop me if I decide to leave. That is one of the reasons I know that his self-loathing is so bad here. He really means it when he says that. He really will do whatever I say I want. If I say I want him to move me back where we came from right now, he would do it. He really is not trying to control me. He is just desperately depressed and has absolutely NO self-esteem because of everything in his past and now because of what he has done. The other night he just kept repeating how ashamed of himself he was. He said he had thought of suicide, but he never threatened it if I left. He was not using that to manipulate me. Your choices are: To give him the boot. (Bear in mind... you have an absolute RIGHT to do that if it's what you want.) To try for recovery. Or, to take whatever time you need in deciding between the previous two choices... remaining CLEARLY noncommital in your communications with your spouse. What I don't agree with is floating along without making a choice. Yes, thanks for laying them out. You are right, I have to make a choice and commit to it, but I also have to be willing to change my choice based on new information or on changes I see in my H. Initially I was ready to end the M. I gave him the second chance and he blew it. That day as I was unpacking I was even starting a pile of the things that we would sell. (It was getting pretty big too!). After that night I am currently staying in the relationship and supporting him in his personal recovery. I am choosing to give things a try based on certain conditions that must be met (ie IC and MC for BOTH of us, STD testing, and specific actions on his part). I am NOT agreeing that I will stay in the M long-term, that will be decided based on changes I see in him after a period of IC and MC. I am not sure how long a period to give it, as I know it will take a lot of time before he will be able to change much and before those changes will overcome the bad habitual behaviors of a lifetime. Wayward spouses are persons with alot of "don't have's. They don't have relationship skills, or they don't have coping skills, or they don't have self-esteem, or empathy, or character, or any number of other things. We're talking about people with deficits in terms of healthy, monogamous, relationships. And while it's only justice that the guy who 'makes the mess' be the one to clean it up... how realistic is that? I'm thinking it's like asking a 4 year old who crayoned on your wall to give you a good paint job. S/he's not equipped for the task. Very true. He is not yet equipped for the task of being in a committed relationship, because he does not even love himself. Therefore, he is also not yet equipped to HEAL said committed relationship. So before I can decide if we can save this relationship I need to see if he can heal and learn to love himself. I can support him in that effort. If he cannot achieve that then I can't help him or us. Have a back-up plan. But don't allow your fears to be what stops you from achieving whatever goal you set for yourself. Working on that, trying to find a job and get a car. Finding out about the area, meeting people, I am building a back-up plan anyway. Thanks for the advice and support!
Author Lynna Posted July 10, 2007 Author Posted July 10, 2007 This almost sounds like...if H is having an A, show him plenty of good times in bed so as to keep him emotionally close. Then he will not get emotionally close to OW. H+A= good sex with both W and OW. Wow! A man can't go wrong there. I assume that the book is only talking about reinitiating sexual relations AFTER he has ended the A (and been tested for cooties!) and as you are trying to rebuild the marriage. I would not knowingly continue having sex with him while he was still with the OW - that would be condoning the A. "Sure honey, it's okay, you can have your cake and eat it too." NO WAY! As soon as I found out about the first A I cut things off completely. I did that again now. Once he is "clear" then I will consider reinitiating, but only if I see that his behavior is appropriate and only if I am sure that there is nothing going on on the side.
Melissa277 Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 I'm noticing some concern for whether you're going to get hurt again, Lynna. I can't blame these ladies for worrying about you. It's a legitimate concern.... You might get your feelings hurt again. But when you think about it, that comes with the territory when dealing with romantic love. You could pitch this guy, and the NEXT one might be a dud too. These girls are right though in telling you that most of these MM/cheater squall like a baby when they're caught. Really, it doesn't tell you a thing about their character, and it doesn't predict future behavior. Some are REALLY sorry... and some aren't. If you're still predisposed to 'trying for recovery', I think it's important that you recognize WHY the betrayed spouse has to step up to the plate and put in so much hard work.. and if you think about it, it only stands to reason that it's so. Wayward spouses are persons with alot of "don't have's. They don't have relationship skills, or they don't have coping skills, or they don't have self-esteem, or empathy, or character, or any number of other things. We're talking about people with deficits in terms of healthy, monogamous, relationships. And while it's only justice that the guy who 'makes the mess' be the one to clean it up... how realistic is that? I'm thinking it's like asking a 4 year old who crayoned on your wall to give you a good paint job. S/he's not equipped for the task. It's NOT fair that betrayed spouses shoulder so much of the burden when it comes to reconciliation. But when you think about it, who's got their head screwed on wrong, the cheat-er or the cheat-ee??? Sorry LJ, but most of us don't expect to get our romantic feelings hurt by our spouses. A boyfriend/girlfriend? Maybe. But not our spouses. That's why we made vows with them. I know I know ... cheaters have low self esteem, no empathy, bad character etc. etc. But they are grown-ups right? They're not four. They know right from wrong. And if they don't know right from wrong why lie and sneak around in the first place? Why not just cheat right out in the open? Because they know it's wrong and they know people will get hurt. I mean if I go rob a bank and get caught, the cops don't look over my childhood history, work records or social skills before they decide what to do. They just throw my *ss in jail, no matter how sorry I am. So how come as soon as someone cheats they get a free pass because all of a sudden they had a bad childhood or have low self esteem or low coping skills? The BS's take them back (after they howl and cry and beg and plead and make promises they don't intend to keep) and then have to live with the fact that they may do it again because of all the bologna we use to justify why they f*cked up in the first place. Most of us put in the majority of the effort in the marriage already and still got our *sses handed to us and now we have to try to put it back together practically on our own because the cheater has issues? Who doesn't??? Kiss them, hug them, screw them, shower them with attention ... make them feel like a million bucks. But who is going to do that for the BS? We're the ones that need the reassurance. We're the ones that don't know what to believe. We're the ones whose trust and lives were shattered. We're the ones that need to be coddled. We're the ones who were hurt. Cheaters are just selfish people who make excuses for their behavior only when they get caught. They then do their best to convince the BS they lack whatever social term is now in vogue and that it's up to us to take the responsibility and "fix" everything because they just aren't equipped. We allow them to be off the hook so to speak. Maybe it's just me, but I don't want someone who will only be faithful as long as they have their *ss kissed 24/7 because of something that happened when they were twelve. I guess what I'm trying to spit out here is, is it too much to ask that the cheater put in some effort toward making things right? They wanted the second chance or this wouldn't even be an issue. So can they do something ... anything to prove to the BS that they aren't making a huge mistake by forgiving? Must we excuse their poor behavior again and again? IDK. Am I way off base here?
child_of_isis Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 No Melissa, you are not off base. You are spot on. On all points. Truthfully, due to the excuses from both parties for H's behavior, I don't think this R will go anywhere. The length of the R will depend on how many A's the original poster can handle.
Ladyjane14 Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 If that's the way you feel about it though, Melissa and CoI... you have to remember that you're at NO OBLIGATION to forgive a cheater or take him back. But... if you do, forgiveness is NECESSARY to true reconciliation. You can't forgive someone and then hold their sin over their head for the rest of their life. That's not forgiveness. All I know is what has worked for me. And what has worked for me is honoring my own forgiveness decision. Forgiveness doesn't require anyone to be a doormat. It doesn't require that we give our blessing to bad behaviors. It only requires that we recognize that our mate has NO COIN with which he can repay us. What price could you put on pain? I'm not going to let infidelity change 'who I am' at the core. If I have to become some kind of hyper-vigilant person, always waiting for my mate to cheat me... I don't WANT him anymore. It's that simple. To be frank... I think it's chickensh*t to go around being scared all the time. And I say that as a person who suffers from mild anxiety. I'm in the business of DEFEATING my fears, not letting them rule my life. I have to be, else they'd take over. So, I say again, forgive or don't. But if you decide to reconcile, don't sit around with your thumb up your butt waiting for your mate to FIX everything for ya. 'Cause it's NOT gonna happen. As unfortunate as it is, the betrayed spouse is in a better position to take the bull by the horns and guide the relationship. The cheater doesn't have the tools. If he did, he wouldn't have cheated.
RecoverMe Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 Then it is more than 50% up to the cheater to get the tools, and yes the BS can do some "guiding", but if the WS isn't obviously, actively involved in getting these tools, then that's a factor to weigh in to whether to forgive or not, I think. But it does take two to reconcile, no one should have their up their .
Ladyjane14 Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 Lynna is already "guiding"... by setting firm boundaries on what it takes for him to stay in a relationship with her. She's setting the future parameters on what's required, and pointing him in the direction to get his "tools". That's all I'm talking about. (Bear in mind, I'm referring to reconciliation scenarios, and not situations where there's still suspected infidelity in place.) Bottom line... it's not necessary to keep a man if you feel the need to punish him. If you can't live with the idea that he's gonna "get away with it"... put him out of your life. Because... if you take him back, he IS essentially going to 'get away with it'.
Melissa277 Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 If I have to become some kind of hyper-vigilant person, always waiting for my mate to cheat me... I don't WANT him anymore. It's that simple. To be frank... I think it's chickensh*t to go around being scared all the time. And I say that as a person who suffers from mild anxiety. I'm in the business of DEFEATING my fears, not letting them rule my life. I have to be, else they'd take over. So, I say again, forgive or don't. But if you decide to reconcile, don't sit around with your thumb up your butt waiting for your mate to FIX everything for ya. 'Cause it's NOT gonna happen. As unfortunate as it is, the betrayed spouse is in a better position to take the bull by the horns and guide the relationship. The cheater doesn't have the tools. If he did, he wouldn't have cheated. But that's just the point. If the cheater has all these "issues" that "forced" them to have an A in the first place, don't they still have the same issues after you forgive them? I mean, they had the "tools" to get someone else in bed, right? Now, all of a sudden, they're like these fragile little things who can't cope with life because of this or that. What about the rest of us that just suck up whatever life dishes out without hurting the people we say we care about? Why is it cheating is the only thing that makes these people feel better about themselves? Can't they go to the gym or Bingo or play tennis or something? Why is it always cheating? I just don't get it I guess. It may be chicken sh*t to be scared, but after you've lost everything single thing you've worked your whole life for, as I have, you do become a little gun shy. Anyway, I'm trying to forgive but it sure would help if H would make some effort to make me feel good for a change because I've suddenly realized I've been feeling kinda low lately, my self-esteem is shot, I'm having problems coping and my boyfriend in 7th grade broke up with me for no reason ... I guess I'll go find me a lover ... just to take the edge off.
Ladyjane14 Posted July 10, 2007 Posted July 10, 2007 It may be chicken sh*t to be scared, but after you've lost everything single thing you've worked your whole life for, as I have, you do become a little gun shy. You have to defeat that though, hunny. Because if you don't... you'll NEVER be happy keeping him. Yes. It takes time. But it also takes a flat-out refusal to accept defeat at the hands of your own fears. One of the reasons why I think we tend to continue a punitive stance with somebody who's previously hurt us is that underneath it all, we're afraid of getting hurt again. Sure, there's merit in letting somebody know that you're not their doormat, but past the point where they really do know it... it's just fear-based punishing. It's not justice. There's no justice to be had for what they did. There's no coin with which they can pay for your pain. So, if you're in the recovery stage and you want to make it work... you can't be punitive. The marriage CANNOT recover with that particular dynamic in place.
Author Lynna Posted July 10, 2007 Author Posted July 10, 2007 First I want to say that my H called the therapist ON HIS OWN after this second debacle - before I even knew what had happened. We had been talking about starting joint and individual counseling once I got down here, but he recognized that he could not wait any longer. He is taking responsibility for his actions. Yes, his background and issues led to the problem in the first place, but HE is taking action to fix those issues. He admits that he should have taken action earlier. But, as we all know, usually the person with the problem is the LAST one to recognize and acknowledge that they have a problem. Look at alcoholics and how they deny, deny, deny. They are grown-ups too, but they don't act like it, especially when they get into a car and drive while drunk, all the while saying, I am fine, I can do this, I know what I am doing. Emotionally and psychologically damaged people are often NOT capable of making mature, adult decisions, despite their age. A condition of me staying with my H at this point is that he follow up on therapy and various other things we have agreed on. Yes, it is ABSOLUTELY necessary that the WS take responsibility for the problems and take steps to fix the issues that led to the A. No, it makes no sense to stay with a WS who acts and talks like everything is okay and that they don't have to do anything to change. But my H is not doing that. He is taking responsibility and he is trying to change. He has started going to the gym too and as Melissa pointed out that is helping him feel better about himself as well. Again, he joined the gym without ANY suggestion from me. It was buddies at work who talked him into going and he realized how much better he felt when he did. I had not suggested that at all. My H knows that he needs to reassure me. He knows that I still doubt and question. In fact he felt ashamed that he broke down the other night saying that he was not important, that he needed to be there to comfort me, not the other way around. He said that his pain should not take precedence over mine. I reminded him that his pain was what caused his behavior that led to mine in the first place, therefore, by addressing and dealing with his pain we were getting at the root of the issue. Only by communicating fully and completely with each other can we create a healthy relationship and begin to rebuild our marriage. If we stay married, I have to forgive him. But he also has to forgive himself. Yes, I will have fears and doubts, that is natural. Yes, letting go of the pain, anger, doubts, and fear is VERY, VERY hard. Yes, he needs to take actions to assure me that I won't have reasons to fear and doubt in the future, and he is beginning to take those steps. Only with his help can I get beyond that and he knows it. If a WS is not willing to do that, then the marriage cannot be saved. That is a critical issue. If my H stops the process of rebuilding and tries to lay all the work on me, then I will go, I will not put up with that. Right now however, I am staying to give that a chance. But it is not only up to him. I can help myself too and am now taking steps to do that, chatting here on LS, getting some books and reading them, starting IC as soon as possible in addition to MC, getting my house unpacked and organized, finding a job, finding reasons to be self-confident and independent. I need to reassure myself that his A was not about me, that though his actions DID hurt me, they were not done deliberately to hurt me. I won't allow his actions to turn me into someone I don't want to be. So despite my freak-out here the other day, I am trying to think calmly about everything and deal with it more rationally. (And that is helping, I feel a heck of a lot better about ME as I am putting my life in order!) I am sure there will continue to be ups and downs for both of us. And right now, I have no idea what the ultimate outcome will be. Neither of us knows and it will be a long road until we find out.
child_of_isis Posted July 11, 2007 Posted July 11, 2007 Well honestly, I think it is sometimes fear that keeps some women in M with cheating men. Fear of being alone Fear of the pain that comes with the break up Financial fear Fear of being branded as the one who couldn't "keep" her man...and on and on. I think that is why some can move on. They don't allow these fears to dictate what is best for them. To be frank... I think it's chickensh*t to go around being scared all the time. And I say that as a person who suffers from mild anxiety. I'm in the business of DEFEATING my fears, not letting them rule my life. I have to be, else they'd take over.
Author Lynna Posted July 11, 2007 Author Posted July 11, 2007 Well honestly, I think it is sometimes fear that keeps some women in M with cheating men. I would agree with you that some women do stay with cheating men because of fear. That is also why some women stay with men who physically abuse them. I think that is why some can move on. They don't allow these fears to dictate what is best for them. I personally am not allowing my fears to dictate my choices. I am setting firm boundaries for moving forward with my husband. I am NOT guarenteeing that I will stay with him forever. I am laying contingencies that must happen for me to stay beyond the point that I think he is capable of not self-destructing if I leave. He must achieve and demonstrate that he has changed, that he is remorseful, that I can trust him, and that he is fully committed to working on our relationship for me to stay beyond that. I am setting goals to be sure that I have a place to go, that I have work and can support myself, etc. But I am also leaving open the possibility that I still have a future with my husband, with the man I originally fell in love with, or some more healthy, complete version of him if he is able become that man again. While for some people it is best to make the choice to leave the relationship, for others it may be best to stay provided the relationship can become whole and healthy again.
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