smartgirl Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 One more thing. Hearing about his past now in conjunction with his wanting to go to the party with exOW makes more sense. He is so afraid of what people will think of him and not seeming manly that he will do any stupid thing he thinks he has to to look like a man's man. Sad, but I don't think he is alone out there.
angel3 Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 Lynna, Oh hell, honey, I am so very, very sorry. I feel like a dolt - I have been so wrapped up in my own drama I haven't been around the forum much at all, I had no idea this had happened right now. And all this time, you have been so supportive and there for me. I hope I can be here for you now, too, I am just devastated that this is happening to you. From what I know of you, even in this short time, it is clear as day and shines through in your posts that you are a kind, warm, intelligent and caring woman. You should not be having to deal with this. Especially after having forgiven him and giving him a second chance. And after moving across the country to be with him ... it's just so grossly unfair. My thoughts are with you, please know I mean what with all of my heart. I know I wasn't here for the original situation, but from what I can observe from a new, outsiders POV, and it is only my humble opinion, but I do think you and the other ladies are correct - it sounds like he has a genuine problem. I am sorry for all that he has been through in his life, it sounds horrific and it's no wonder he is damaged by all of it. I also agree that he needs counseling in a big way - as for whether he can change, that, as we all know, is probably the hardest question to answer. But even considering all of the above, as you know sweetie, it just does not give him the right to take out his issues on you, and do this to you. You have been there for him, given him everything, treated him with nothing but kindness and supported him with all of his issues, and he hurts the one who loves him the most. Why is this always the case? The concept that this happens to so many is completely heartbreaking to me. And it applies in my case, too, as you know - I love my CH so very much that I am still struggling with shock - that he could do this to me, when I have stood by him through so much, loved him unconditionally and faithfully - and he says he loves me and is grateful for having me in his life - so - how could he?? One of the biggest hurts that I have over it all is that I have been a good wife (great in fact) - loving, trusting, supportive and understanding - not neglectful, or absent or frigid or nagging ... but an honest to God good wife. Are you with me? (((lynna))) God I wish I could hug you, girl. With your CH, what do think about this: with all he has been through, the hurt from his older B and his parents, women and peers ... now, he has had you, the exact opposite in every way - his first experience of true love and feeling safe. Do you think this has led him to feel or think (WRONGLY OF COURSE) that now he can face these demons and get his own back, make himself feel more secure and manly, go after all the things he never experienced before you - lust, popularity, revenge even? - and more of course, in what he considered to be relative safety? As in, he knows you are a 'good' wife - loving and devoted, and that you would stand by him through it all? And maybe he thinks, in his unwell way, that he will get it out of his system or something, once and for all (which we all know won't happen, because he is not developing healthy coping strategies but rather self-damaging ones, and when a 'fix' doesn't fix it, he needs to try 'one-more' one more time) and that then, after all is said and done, he can feel better and behave and live happily ever after, because you have stood by him through his issues, so you'll 'understand?' I KNOW how warped this way of thinking is, and his actions are wrong in every way. In this possible example, he is disrespecting you and using you to 'get better,' so to speak. And of course, this is all just speculation - I may be totally off the mark here, from a distance trying to interpret what could possibly be going on his his mind. There has to be something messed up in his thinking process for him to just repeat like this, and with his damaging childhood and the resulting issues. It is those damaging childhood issues that lead me to this guess, because it seems to be connected, somehow. This is why he needs THERAPY!! BUT - with all of that said - he has put you through too much. He has crossed a line, been given another chance, and is STILL not respecting you nor your M. I am so so sorry honey - I can feel the pain in your words. I am in fear of this myself right now as you know, trying to decide about a second chance. I can't imagine how soul destroying it must feel to have agonized over that decision and taken a chance in good faith, only to turn around and be treated like this. I think you are MORE than well within your rights to leave him, straight up. I can understand your thoughts on getting a D - and the shock, horror and disbelief you must be experiencing. And having just moved! (I gave up everything and moved to another county to be with H when we first decided to move in together, after our LTR.) I cannot IMAGINE what it must feel like to have just done that, after a second chance, only to end up in this situation while still surrounded by boxes from the move! What he has done to you, the position he has put you in - is low, and unforgivable. PLEASE don't worry what your friends and family will think of you - HE is the ******* here, NOT you. I'm just sorry that they are all so far away and unable to come help you in a moments notice. I think your plans so far sound very rational, even though I know that is not at all how you are feeling. Have you decided what you are going to do? I hope your evening last night wasn't as bad as I'm guessing it probably was. Please know that you are being thought of with lots of supportive vibes coming your way. Please do let us know how you are, if you are ok (that sounds so stupid, I know and I'm sorry, because I know you are pretty friggin far from ok right now) - but please let us know how you are coping, and how it's all going. I hope you are finding some way through this, some kind of hope and plan of action. Things just cannot continue like this, something has to change - preferably his wayward ways, lies and disrespect. Keeping you close, and watching for your update - please let us know how it went last night. I wish I could come over and help you with those damn boxes. (((hugs))) angel3
angel3 Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 (woah - sorry so long! I swear it didn't sound that long in my head! LOL - I'm just a really really (really) fast typist - my fingers race as fast as my OOC :rolleyes:thoughts!)
child_of_isis Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 Here is another reminder. He is a cake eater and a serial cheater. Keep that in mind while you are making decisions about your future. Sorry you are going thru this. But I believe facing the truth, be it painful as it is, is what is best for YOU. Clear head, right, can anyone remind me of what that feels like??? Right now everything is swirling in there. All these boxes piled around me is not helping either. I don't have a clear ANYTHING right now! But you are right. I HAVE to deal with this with a clear head, I have a lot of choices to make, and I have a lot of planning to do to even figure out the next step. Yes, I have to breathe and focus. I can only hurt myself futher if I don't go about all this deliberately. Thanks for the reminder.
Kislette Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 Lynna, I don't think it was foolish of you at all to want to give your husband a second chance. Statistics show that a significant number of cheaters DON'T cheat more than once. However, I think he would only deserve a third chance if he gets counseling and can somehow prove he has changed enough to be worth it. Also, it is possible that he isn't getting caught on purpose because he's getting some sick pleasure out of it - he may have subconsciously wanted to get caught because he knew he was too weak to end the relationships on his own. Do you know if the 2nd relationship you discovered started before or after you confronted him about the 1st? I'm not saying that makes it forgivable, but maybe it will indicate there wasn't an additional level of cruelty for you to have to deal with.
Author Lynna Posted July 6, 2007 Author Posted July 6, 2007 Hello, yes, I am here. Sorry, I have been doing a lot of thinking today and unpacking and trying to figure out what is really going on and what to do. I needed to clear my head a bit. So, when he came home I showed him the receipt and asked him where the condoms were. First he tried to lie and say the receipt was attached to his other receipt when he bought stuff. (Plausible right? It has happened to us all.) So then I asked him about the journal. I said that I would not have looked had I not found the receipt. Well, apparently I overreacted about that. I admit now that it is a little vague. In it he was making a reference to all the women he has been with in the past. He was also saying that he was gitting hit on a lot in the bar where a group of them go after work, and that was what he meant by the comment that really set me off. Even I have to admit on rereading it that I read more into it then is really there. Like Ladyjane and many of you pointed out, I was in a panic mode yesterday and was not thinking straight AT ALL. I apologize to you ALL for that. I was pretty insane yesterday. Anyway, I can read him when he is lying. I can tell, his body language and facial expressions change completely. I buy it about the journal. However, I knew that he was lying about the condoms. So at that point I completely broke down. I could not help it, once I saw it in his face I lost it even more than during the day yesterday. Once I finally stopped crying we started talking. He said that while we were apart he was very depressed and very lonely. He said that one woman in the bar hit on him several times when they bumped into each other. Then she actually set a time saying when she would be there. So he bought the condoms and went to meet her. Apparently, they went to a hotel, she paid. Apparently, nothing happened, he felt too guilty to actually get aroused. Then he broke down. He finally told me how desperately depressed he has been, how desperately lonely he has been. Apparently he has been at the brink of suicide several times during the time we were gone. This last incident with the bar woman finally pushed him to the point of calling the shrink, apparently. He became even more of a basket case than I was. He has been holding things in and suppressing them for FAR too long. It came out big time last night. There really are two people in there, one is a facade, the other is a very troubled man. So now I don't know what to do. He is desperately in need of help and he is seeking it on his own. He admitted last night that I am one thing that helps keep him sane. He admitted that the time we were apart was one of the worst times in his life and that having me here even only these past few days has helped his depression greatly. He apologized over and over last night and this morning. He said how sorry he was, how ashamed he was and how he would not stop me if I had to leave. He does not even feel that he has the right to beg me to stay. I am so torn. Clearly he has hurt and betrayed me very badly. However, I still love him and I can tell that he really does love me. His issues are in the way of him having a normal life and a normal relationship with me. Clearly he needs help, and I am glad he is seeking it on his own, but I am not sure that he can get through this without my support. He is scared to death of himself and hates himself greatly. He is scared of how he will react in therapy, and how all the emotions that it will stir up will affect him when he is outside of the therapist's office. Don't worry, he has absolutely NEVER done anything to even vaguely make me concerned that he would hurt me physically and he is not concerned about that either. Everything is directed at himself. So, at the moment, I don't feel that I can leave him. Despite what he has done I do love him still. And my heart was breaking for him last night with some of the things that he let out that I did not know about. So I have been thinking today - there is so much to this story that I can't really put down here, so I needed to think and consider before I came online. For now, I am going to stay with him. However, I am going to insist that he be checked for STDs, and I will be checked as well. And we will make that a regular thing. Until the first check there will be absolutely no intimacy. After that we will see. I have to figure out whether I can deal with that or not and all the images I see in my head. I have to figure out whether I can believe him about this second woman. Meanwhile, he is going to start individual therapy. Once I can get a job I will start counseling as well as I am going to need help in sorting through all this and dealing with whatever issues come up. We also want to start marriage counseling, hopefully we can do that with his same counselor, as that person would then know his full story and he would not have to tell it twice. So we will take it one day at a time and see what happens. I really don't know what to believe at this point. I do know however that he is a human being who is desperate and in need. If I leave, who knows what would happen. I love him too much to do that to him. So for now I am staying. Once he is on the track to healing, we will deal with the issue of the future and whether we should stick it out together. Wish us luck, we are going to need it. I want to thank all of you for talking yesterday, you did help! I did listen and wish I had listened even better. I should have reread the journal at the very least and would have been a bit calmer I think. Anyway, you all are wonderful, supportive people!!!! Yesterday would have been so much worse without your support. Thank you with all my heart!!!!!
Author Lynna Posted July 6, 2007 Author Posted July 6, 2007 One more thing. Hearing about his past now in conjunction with his wanting to go to the party with exOW makes more sense. He is so afraid of what people will think of him and not seeming manly that he will do any stupid thing he thinks he has to to look like a man's man. Sad, but I don't think he is alone out there. Yes, this all makes a lot more sense now. He said he has so few friends (which is true, he lets very few people get really close) that not saying good bye to them was really painful. I can understand him wanting to go a little better now. She boosted his self-esteem, and she asked him for advice on her own life (she is young) so he felt both wanted and needed. (Yes, I was doing that too, he has assured me that there was nothing I was doing wrong, it is just that I am not as needy as she was.) Depending on how the therapy goes, the next time we are back in town together (we do need to go back to wind up a couple of things), I may actually suggest he contact the group and we both go to see them all. Knowing the reason he wants to do it makes it a bit easier for me to actually want to put on the act to help him move on. That would be the last time and he would know it, so would all of them.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 Lynna, I'm glad you're feeling a little better today. When you can get things organized there and find employment and hopefully someone to talk to on your own everything will take shape for you come what may. The only comment I have on what you've said (and my H starts IC next week) is the suicide line. Everything you stated my H has said to me. Including that line. Its kind of funny because when he went to say it he was sitting beside me and I can't remember how he even started but I thought he was going to make another empty promise. At the same time he admits to being so miserable (while lying and screwing his girlfriend) he says he was contemplating suicide. I started to talk over him and before he finished the sentence I said, "Don't even say it if you don't intend to do it!" The irony blew my mind! I hope that he can get help through counseling, and I hope that you can find a very rewarding job where you are and make some good girlfriends whose company you can enjoy. I'm very glad things are looking clearer today, good luck unpacking. Whatever you decide or whatever you are feeling, you're safe here. Good Luck Lynna.
Author Lynna Posted July 6, 2007 Author Posted July 6, 2007 Thanks IWWH! Yes, I am definitely keeping on my guard about all this. I just really don't know what to believe anymore. I hope counseling is able to help us both see things more clearly. Maybe then I can make a more informed decision. Until then I am keeping my eyes, ears, and every other sense open for strange behavior or warning flags. I am going to get involved in his life and get to know his female friends here from the very beginning on the chance that if they are friends with both of us, it is less likely that they would have an A with him. And I want to get to know his male friends as well, that way, if he is hanging out with them and something comes up, they can remind him of what a wonderful woman he has at home waiting for him. You know, the funny thing is now that I write that, I am reminded of a time back when we first started dating of how he was telling me about being out with a buddy and the guy got drunk and wanted to go home with some woman he met in the bar. My H talked him out of it, told him what a bad idea it was and how wonderful his wife was. The buddy got very mad at him but finally did leave. Later he thanked him. Irony there don't you think! Anyway, I just want to aplogize again for being such a basket case and flying off the handle yesterday. I feel bad about that. Thanks again to all of you! You are great!
IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 Anyway, I just want to aplogize again for being such a basket case and flying off the handle yesterday. I feel bad about that. GIMME A BREAK!! Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it! Have a good weekend.
Chinook Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 Lynna Sorry, I've been lurking. I'm a little confused (doesn't take much believe me) did he cheat a second time or not..? It looks from what you said that he didn't and you'd seen something which wasn't actually there. If that's the case, I would like to say a couple of words of encouragement to you. What happened yesterday with your discovery of the receipt is normal. Your reaction is normal. Simply because you're in the phase of trying hard to rebuild your trust in him. I am really really glad to see that he came clean with you completely because it has given you both a foundation to work from anew. One thing I want you to be mindful of is that you can't fix him. He has to do this himself. He has committed as such to you and I'm really glad that you seem to be supporting him and giving him that chance. I think if you guys can get through this, you can have a shot at real happiness and really, you can't not take that chance. I wish all the very best of luck lady and really hope that he stays true to his side of the process.
Author Lynna Posted July 6, 2007 Author Posted July 6, 2007 Thanks! You too! How do you make unpacking boxes fun when you don't have any kids or pets to play in them? Is it too immature to want to build a fort as an adult? Are cardboard walls enough to protect me from the scary things in the world? Hmm, you know, that really does sound like fun. I think I AM crazy! But this time in a good way!
Author Lynna Posted July 6, 2007 Author Posted July 6, 2007 I'm a little confused (doesn't take much believe me) did he cheat a second time or not..? It looks from what you said that he didn't and you'd seen something which wasn't actually there. Hi Chinook, thanks for the words of encouragement! They are much appreciated! You are welcome to chime in any time. Your question is important and good. I don't really know for sure whether he cheated a second time or not. I did read something into his journal that was not really there. I do know that he was tempted and at the very least came VERY close to doing it, and he did buy the condoms. What I don't know for sure is whether he actually did or not. He says the actual action did not take place and that his feelings of guilt kept it from happening. He seemed sincere when he said that. I did not detect the signs I usually do when he is lying. But I also know that he has lied before and tried to initially this time as well. So for now, I am believing him (mostly). And I am trying to continue to help our M heal. Yes, your point is well taken about me not being able to heal him. I even told him that last night. I said though that for now at least I would be here with him as he tries to heal himself. I said that I can't make a decision on what to do about US until I know who he is and wants to be in the long run. He needs to feel better about himself before we can be a whole and healthy us. He said that as well. So we are kind of in limbo for a little while. We are trying to be here for each other and support each other, but the ultimate outcome will take awhile to decide. Does that make a little more sense? I know it might not make a lot of sense, because it is still confusing for me and I know the full story! Or as much of it as I can know without actually being him!
Chinook Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 It makes perfect sense lady. He's a very lucky guy and I hope he knows that. As for wondering where you guys will be when things settle down, well hopefully you will be stronger and this will bring you closer. I have read that many marriages can and are made stronger after the impact of an affair. The important thing is that you guys are in this and getting through it together... re-committed to each other if you like. I'm really pleased things look more positive than they did yesterday.
child_of_isis Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 So, did you get the condoms? If the condoms are all accounted for then you know he is telling you the truth. He said he couldn't get aroused with the woman at the hotel. You can't get a condom on unless you are aroused. So, he shouldn't have a problem turning them all over to you. So, when he came home I showed him the receipt and asked him where the condoms were.
angel3 Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 ^^^ what COI said! SO glad to hear that you are feeling a little better today, I've been thinking about you all day. Sorry my post was long and rambling - I reread it today and can hear the fatigue ad confusion in my own words. Just know that I'm here, listening, understanding (as best I can, KWIM?) and hoping for things to be better for you. Rooting in your corner all the way honey, and keeping you close, even when I can't find the right words. xoxo
Author Lynna Posted July 7, 2007 Author Posted July 7, 2007 So, did you get the condoms? If the condoms are all accounted for then you know he is telling you the truth. No, and that is one of the reasons (among many) that I am still doubtful. He says that he threw them away because he did not want me to find them (that makes sense). He also says that he even had a moment of doubt before he did because he did not want to waste the money (again, this has a ring of truth to it, he grew up so poor that he HATES to throw anything away that has any value to it still). So his story does have a lot of truth to it, though I do wish he had kept them as you say!
Author Lynna Posted July 7, 2007 Author Posted July 7, 2007 Made sense to me Angel! I think (unfortunately) we are in the same state of mind at the moment! Hang in there, I am with you in spirit!
child_of_isis Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 I would bust him out on this one. This only proves that he would go to any lengths to lie and deceive you. Okay...imagine another scenario besides the one you posted... H comes home from a night out on the town. He is distraught and weeping. He breaks and tells you the whole hotel/condom/guilt story. Which scenario would have benefitted YOU more? Scenario number 2 (mine) would have told you some major things about the man: That he ss totally committed to mending the already shakey R. That he is committed to being honest and can be counted on for honesty. That you are not the enemy to hide from, but a friend that he wants to confide in. It would say that he understands that he has issues....and for sure it would let you know that these "issues" are not just excuses that he uses to manipulate you emotionally. He says that he threw them away because he did not want me to find them
Ladyjane14 Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 If you choose to believe him... then honor your choice and believe him. The condoms are unimportant. They're part of the past. Listen, you can't be afraid of 'playing the fool' and be successful in reconciliation. You've got to be made of sterner stuff than that. You've got to have the courage to take some emotional risks. The worst that can happen, provided you keep a contingency plan in place, is that you end up feeling "foolish". But if that becomes the case, who's the bad guy?... the one who was open, loving, and honest?... or the one who continued to cheat, lie, and evade? It's okay, even necessary, to let this guy "own his sh*t". If he's going to stay in the marriage, he's going to have to hold up his end of it. But that doesn't mean you have to let this experience turn you into some kind of paranoid character you don't want to be... all the time keeping a wary eye on him in expectation that he's going to "drop his end". You can't let the circumstances surrounding you define 'who you are', right? You have to be true to yourself too, evolving, learning, and fulfilling your own destiny in terms of individual growth. You have to be who you were meant to be... and that "paranoid" person is undoubtedly NOT "who you were meant to be". One other thing I want to mention to you about marital recovery... Once you're sure he's not infested with cooties, give some thought to taking your man back to bed. During the crisis in my marriage, I had the same plan you have for "waiting" to reinstate sexual intimacy until after emotional intimacy had been restored. But there must've been angels on our shoulders at the time, because that's not what happened. I have since learned that these two forms of intimacy, emotional and sexual, must go hand-in-hand in heterosexual, monogamous relationships. JamesM explains it well in posts #101 and #110 on this thread: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=123244&page=7 Between men and women who are healthy enough and desirous of sex, emotional intimacy will not be fully restored until sexual intimacy is likewise restored, and vice versa. Anyway, if you love that man and want him back, you can't be afraid to expose your vulnerabilities. There's no intimate connection unless you can both commit yourselves to taking emotional risks. Climb out onto the branch and test your weight on it. The worst that can happen is you will fall. But if you do... KNOW in your heart that you're tough enough, and strong enough, to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and go on with your life. "Fear is the mindkiller", right? It's okay if you don't want this guy anymore. I believe that EVERY betrayed spouse has an absolute right to turn up his/her nose and walk if that's what they want to do. But alternatively, if you want to stay in the marriage and try... you have to truly commit to the endeavor. Anything you do half-assed can only come out "half-assed". So, choose your path and then bring your A-game.
child_of_isis Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 I don't think she is being paranoid. Here is my understanding of things: He cheated, she forgave him and they decided to work on the M. She then finds a receipt for condoms and confronts him. He admits that yes, he was going to cheat again but he couldn't get aroused. What does that say but he is a serial cheater and cake eater. I mean one can rationalize it away....for now. But these same facts will eventually resurface.
Author Lynna Posted July 7, 2007 Author Posted July 7, 2007 If you choose to believe him... then honor your choice and believe him. The condoms are unimportant. They're part of the past. That is the hard part right, believing him after everything that he admits he has done. That makes it so hard to actually believe that he has told me the full story - no, not the sordid details, I definitely don't want them, but whether anything actually happened this second time. But you are right, if I am going to stay in this relationship for now, I have to let it go. I can't keep dwelling on it. Thanks for the reminder. You've got to have the courage to take some emotional risks. I guess letting is go is an emotional risk! It's okay, even necessary, to let this guy "own his sh*t". If he's going to stay in the marriage, he's going to have to hold up his end of it. But that doesn't mean you have to let this experience turn you into some kind of paranoid character you don't want to be... all the time keeping a wary eye on him in expectation that he's going to "drop his end". Yes, he most definitely is going to have to hold up his end, as soon as he can get healthy enough to do that. In the mean time, I feel like I am propping him up. I hope that it does not take too long for him to get some land legs! You are right, I can't and don't want to be that paranoid person! That definitely does not make me happy! Once you're sure he's not infested with cooties, give some thought to taking your man back to bed. ...these two forms of intimacy, emotional and sexual, must go hand-in-hand in heterosexual, monogamous relationships. ". Hmm, valid point here. As you say we have to ensure the cootie free part first, then I will certainly consider that. You are right, the two are intricately tied together and are both essential in a healthy marriage. Thanks again for that reminder. "Fear is the mindkiller", right? Yes, and I am going to try very hard not to let it win! Thanks for the support!
Author Lynna Posted July 7, 2007 Author Posted July 7, 2007 CoI, you may be correct. But in his current state of mind, I cannot leave him. Who knows what would happen really. I could not do that to any human being, let along my H.
smartgirl Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 LJ is offering very good advice on the sexual intimacy issue. I'm sure you have seen the book referred to, but go buy "After the Affair" by Janet Abrams-Springs. She addresses many of the root issues of affairs, including childhood problems, and does a really good job of recovery issues. Her advice is sound and well reasoned and after a year of recovery work I would say she was on the mark all the way through. Your H has long standing issues that have lead to his behavior. You are not one of those issues. You are perhaps the thing that makes him want to be a better man and to finally get some help. Make sure he stays in the therapy. Based on my experience, you will need a separate MC. They don't want to appear to take sides. I started with individual so I could vent my anger and he so he could talk about things that would be painful to me. Then we moved into MC with a separate therapist. Be prepared to move if you don't feel better at the end of each session. After going to several, if you leave the session feeling worse than before that is the sign of a weak therapist. Like anything, they aren't all good. But getting back to the sex! It is important and the book tells you why. It is critically important to the man in terms of feeling accepted and loved. Sex is one of the only ways a lot of them can let their guard down and feel free to feel. The down side of that, is that they all think they can have sex with no feeling with OW, but the very act of having sex usually makes them feel closer emotionally. So you don't want to be out of that loop! Aside - LJ - how long has it been for you since you found out? You seem very collected in your thinking.
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