Author circeinvidiosa Posted July 5, 2007 Author Posted July 5, 2007 Would you all feel the same way about this topic if I had asked, for instance, how to get someone to fall in love with me, without any reference at all to an A? The reason I ask is that there are 100s -- no, 1000s -- of books and seminars available on this very topic -- how to influence someone's feelings and decisions with regard to yourself. No one has any actual objection to this large sub-genre of advice. There are some critics who say you can't do anything to influence someone's emotional response to you and it's all hogwash. Many others say that, "Yes, you can." The minute we throw the moral question of dissolving a marriage into the arena, it seems that the answers are unanimously, "No, you can do nothing, so don't try." Don't many people play what you call "mind games" during a courtship process of any kind? Who said, "All's fair in love and war." Was it Shakepeare? But again, I am being misunderstood. Who says I am looking for mind games, and not just good sound advice? I already said I think I found two bits of useful information. One person said a man decides early on if a woman is a potential wife or not, and he treats her in the light that he sees her from that point on. Another person said that getting a man with cojones is the entire answer. I think both things are pretty shrewd ways to analyze whatever situation you happen to find yourself in, and they do not involve "mind games" or manipulation. I think you are being a bit unfair and assuming the worst about my motivations. Frankly, part of my problem is that I've never played "mind games" with anyone in my life and because of that, I've frequently been a victim of people who have played them. If you wear your heart on your sleeve, you've just about guaranteed that some heart-hunter is going to come and cut it off. So, in the particular situation I happen to find myself in (yes, there is one, unfortunately) I think the first "mind game" I've decided to play with this MM is to try not to let it show in any way that I find him attractive. Is that a mind game that it is acceptable for me to play, or do you think it makes me untrustworthy?
NoIDidn't Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 Would you all feel the same way about this topic if I had asked, for instance, how to get someone to fall in love with me, without any reference at all to an A? Yes, the answer would be the same. Its still manipulation. The reason I ask is that there are 100s -- no, 1000s -- of books and seminars available on this very topic -- how to influence someone's feelings and decisions with regard to yourself. No one has any actual objection to this large sub-genre of advice. Lots of people object to these kinds of books. And the basic concensus again is 'manipulation'. What if you do all of those things for the sake of "getting" someone to fall in love with you? Then what? Do you even like the person or is it just a conquest? A game? Its all a matter of being the right person at the right time.
Tomcat33 Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 I can only speak for me yeah? but for me it is not a moral issue. The question for me is across the board. If you were to ask how do I make a man fall in love with me, or do I get my boss to give me a raise, when you know full well the company policy is 3% annually based on performance and commissions if you are in sales, short of sleeping with your boss and "hoping"that that will get you a raise and not your sorry a$$ thrown out of the company, there is really nothing a person can do to MAKE someone else do something. Well no wait there is also violence but that never ends well... The problem I have always had with those types of questions is the actual "make" part not the morality factor of the question. You can't "make" people do things, sure you can steer them, you can entice you can seduce...I mean yeah there are ways to make a man fall in love with you, but first you have to pick the right man. You have to weigh out your odds, how many you have in favour an only then can you try to "make"them fall in love with you. But if the chemistry is one sided, meaning yours not his, his time is off, meaning his heart is not open to it, and most importantly he just does not click with you in that way, you can do all the advice put out in EVERY SINGLE COSMO that was ever published and you AIN'T got a chance in hell! Why? Love cannot be made. It an be fabiracted for a short while but it cannot sustain sooner or later the truth comes out, YIKES that wasn't love....what was that???? The most you might get is to have him sleep with you for a while given you are so willing to offer him so much to make him fall in love, but I mean really, exactly HOW much does a woman who is half decent looking have to coax a man into sleeping with her. LOL NOT a heck of a lot. Look your question is valid and I don't see it as manipulation you are only trying to see what the better ways are of doing things. I appreciate where you are coming from, and I am glad you asked it. The unfortunate thing is that it appears there really is no magic answer. If you do post it elsewhere and come out with the magic answer that is tried tested and true according to the masses, then by all means share it. You would no doubt set a historical mark for the discovery! On the other hand we shouldn't discount people's experiences even if it is not the magic answer per se, because there are definitely better ways of doing things within a messy situation. I think a few posters have already mentioned some of them... And one last thing I TOTALLY agree one way or another we all play some sort of game to get what we want, it's what moves the world! You would be a hypocrite to say otherwise.
Ladyjane14 Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 Use the search tool to locate posts by Old Europe. If memory serves though... her take on it was that if a MM doesn't make his move within the first six months, he's unlikely to.
KnowHowLoveFeels Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 Use the search tool to locate posts by Old Europe. If memory serves though... her take on it was that if a MM doesn't make his move within the first six months, he's unlikely to. Hi LJ! I haven't read that post by Old Europe, but that is so true. My MM left his W - moved out and filed for D - in less than 2 months after our "talk". Men know what they want in a woman - whether they admit it or not. Labelling them as "cowards" or "indecisive" are plain excuses, IMHO.
Ladyjane14 Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 Hi LJ! Right back at ya, sweetie! I hope you're doing well. Don't think I've gone soft though. I'm on my "every OW ought to have a cheatin' man" kick tonight, hence my unusual helpfulfulness. Men know what they want in a woman - whether they admit it or not. The only drawback is... the "cheating man" seems to notice something he wants about women (plural), rather than "woman" (singular).
RIDINGTHEBULLS1 Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 Well, many variables involved.What I'm thinking is first the emotional availability of the MM and second is how crappy his marriage really is.Come on.. most of these MM are just "di3King" around and don't actually fall or let themselves fall for another female. Second is that many claim to have worse marriages than they really do. Once the marriage is bad enough that the misery overrides any sort of comfortability or whatever else the marriage did offer, he'll probably be out. Men don't like complication, but if the marriage is that bad, eventually he'll leave it with or without the OW. But seeing as MOST divorces are filed by women, I'm gathering that ultimately in most cases the decision is up to the wife. If she finds out, she takes him back or lets him go. When she lets him go, the OW is the rebound chick.
Trimmer Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 When it comes right down to it, nobody should cheat on their spouse. There's a promise involved here and MW/MM is breaking the promise. In my mind, there is no excuse for it, and the only acceptable reason someone might do it is that they are truly unhappy in their marriage and just haven't figured it out yet. In which case, once they do figure it out, they ought to fix it or split. Hold on, I would like a little clarification here. Is there really "no excuse for it", or is there an "acceptable reason?" You start out strong with the "no excuse" thing, then it sounds like you go on to say, well, OK you might break that promise if you are trying to figure out if you are truly unhappy, then once you do figure it out by having an affair, then you should decide to fix it or split? Am I reading you right? Would you all feel the same way about this topic if I had asked, for instance, how to get someone to fall in love with me, without any reference at all to an A? The reason I ask is that there are 100s -- no, 1000s -- of books and seminars available on this very topic -- how to influence someone's feelings and decisions with regard to yourself. No one has any actual objection to this large sub-genre of advice. And yet, in all of that, no one has come up with the sure-fire one-size-fits-all short cut that works for everyone, have they? There are some critics who say you can't do anything to influence someone's emotional response to you and it's all hogwash. Many others say that, "Yes, you can." I'm not saying you can have no influence at all on someone, I'm just saying that there are no magic shortcuts. That's the thing that I think comes through in your questions - you seem to be looking for the short cut. In the scenarios you have mentioned, yes, of course you have some influence on the other party. In getting someone to love you, you can be a loving and lovable person, but there's no short cut; you have to do the work. In getting a raise at your job, there are no magic buttons, but if you do the work - work hard, work well, produce benefit for the company - then that gives you the best chance of a maximum reward. But again, there's no short cut, magic words, hypnosis techniques - you have to do the work. The minute we throw the moral question of dissolving a marriage into the arena, it seems that the answers are unanimously, "No, you can do nothing, so don't try." Actually, you are getting those as two different answers, probably from two different "factions": those with experience in the area are pretty much saying "No, you can do nothing", and those moralistic preachers like me are saying "so don't try." But I agree with both! So, in the particular situation I happen to find myself in (yes, there is one, unfortunately) I think the first "mind game" I've decided to play with this MM is to try not to let it show in any way that I find him attractive. Is that a mind game that it is acceptable for me to play, or do you think it makes me untrustworthy? I think it takes your relationship, which has started out based in secrecy and deceit (within his marriage) in the first place, and adds more layers of deceit and game playing to it. Is that acceptable? What do you mean: morally, ethically? I don't think there is an objective answer to that. Is it acceptable to you? If you believe that "There's a promise involved here and MW/MM is breaking the promise. In my mind, there is no excuse for it..." then you need to ask: what can you tolerate, what can you accept? What is your vision for a relationship?
lonelybird Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 Hi LJ! I haven't read that post by Old Europe, but that is so true. My MM left his W - moved out and filed for D - in less than 2 months after our "talk". Men know what they want in a woman - whether they admit it or not. Labelling them as "cowards" or "indecisive" are plain excuses, IMHO. Do you think that after you are with this MM, he won't cheat on you with another beautiful woman?:confused:
lonelybird Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 How do women get men to leave their wives? Does anyone have a story they can share? For what? Hurt his wife and whole family and children? Is that really "MY happiness is the most important thing, and others living in hell or not,hurt or not, is not my business?" ME > others ??????
TogetherForever Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 There was no enticing or anything of that sort in my relationship. He did it on his own. He saw that he'd be happier & so would his wife if he left. And they both are. I didn't have to entice or manipulate. For someone to have to do that would be pathetic!!
KnowHowLoveFeels Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 I hope you're doing well. The only drawback is... the "cheating man" seems to notice something he wants about women (plural), rather than "woman" (singular). I am still with my H. Not sure if that a good thing or not. Yes, I agree that most men are not particularly selective in their women since they never intend to settle for just ONE. I did want to tell you that my MM left his M; but we are not together because neither of us want to force it at this point, if you know what I mean. I want to sort out myself first. My children are always my priority.
new beginning Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 Hi, everyone! I am brand-new here and registered mainly because I want to see if anyone has an answer to this question. What's the optimum way of going about doing this? I realize you can't make anybody do something they don't want to do, but we all know it happens. Married men do leave their wives for other women. Every one knows at least one person in a successful long term relationship or marriage that started as an affair. And everyone knows women (usually many!) who report that their husbands left them for someone else. The pop psychology is that married men rarely, if ever, leave their wives for the Other Woman. But since some married men do leave, my thinking is that there are some things that the Other Woman can do to at least increase the probability that this will occur. I've already tried my methods a long time ago, and I failed miserably, so I won't share them. That relationship ended over 10 years ago, but the question still plagues me -- what's the trick? How do women get men to leave their wives? Does anyone have a story they can share? There is no "trick". You can't "trick" someone in to falling in love with you, to wanting to be with you. There is no formula, no magic spell or potion... What drew you together in the first place? If it was nothing more than lust, it was ill-fated from the beginning. Making a relationship with a married man work is no different then making a relationship with anyone work. You are yourself, they are who they are, and if those two people fall in love and ultimately share the desire to be together in a committed relationship, they are. Otherwise, it is as ill-fated as the marriage he is risking to be with you.
Meaplus3 Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 Hi, everyone! I am brand-new here and registered mainly because I want to see if anyone has an answer to this question. What's the optimum way of going about doing this? I realize you can't make anybody do something they don't want to do, but we all know it happens. Married men do leave their wives for other women. Every one knows at least one person in a successful long term relationship or marriage that started as an affair. And everyone knows women (usually many!) who report that their husbands left them for someone else. The pop psychology is that married men rarely, if ever, leave their wives for the Other Woman. But since some married men do leave, my thinking is that there are some things that the Other Woman can do to at least increase the probability that this will occur. I've already tried my methods a long time ago, and I failed miserably, so I won't share them. That relationship ended over 10 years ago, but the question still plagues me -- what's the trick? How do women get men to leave their wives? Does anyone have a story they can share? This is Just IMOP. If they are comfortable enough in their marriage ie, financial, friendship, kid's but lack the kind of sex per say that they desire, well they will never leave!!! I strongly feel this is so. The MM I was invloved in an ea with used me and probably many other's for emotional comfort. It was not about sex and there was NEVER sex with MM it was about feeling's. Having an ea is that cheating in the mind of a MM? NO! He did not cross a PA barrier so therefore he did not cheat right? "I love my W she's so great", however it's ok to flirt and catch as many woman as I can cause I love and respect my W? I think that a a MM who does not respect and love his wife like he should does the worst thing that a MM can do, and that's get involved "Emotinally" with a woman. Anyone agree? AP
IWALH Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 I think that a a MM who does not respect and love his wife like he should does the worst thing that a MM can do, and that's get involved "Emotinally" with a woman. Anyone agree? Well, all affairs are horrible, but the least horrible is probably a PA. An EA is pretty awful but I think the absolute worst is when there is a combination of both PA/EA. That's the kind I don't think I could ever forgive and it stil boggles me how BS can forgive that kind of affair.... no matter what their reasoning is. Maybe if they were able to see exactly everything that truly went on they wouldn't be so forgiving.... but they will forever believe what their DH's tell them because it's much nicer than the truth.
mopar crazy Posted July 8, 2007 Posted July 8, 2007 Well, all affairs are horrible, but the least horrible is probably a PA. An EA is pretty awful but I think the absolute worst is when there is a combination of both PA/EA. That's the kind I don't think I could ever forgive and it stil boggles me how BS can forgive that kind of affair.... no matter what their reasoning is. Maybe if they were able to see exactly everything that truly went on they wouldn't be so forgiving.... but they will forever believe what their DH's tell them because it's much nicer than the truth. I always thought that too but it's different when it actually happens to you. My WH had an EA and a PA. He did leave me for the OW. After about three months he did decide she wasn't what he really wanted and that she couldn't keep him as happy as he thought she could. It took A LOT for me to R the M. It took several months of separation and praying to figure out what I needed to do. I told H I would try to work on the M but if it was too hard after his A I would continue w/ the D.
skindeep Posted July 12, 2007 Posted July 12, 2007 I am new here-but have been reading posts as a guest. I am looking for comfort and healing through helping others in the same situation, as well as benefitting from the wise advice and objective opinions offered here. Let me first say that I NEVER imagined MYSELF in such a situation. In fact, I was pretty darn judgemental of those who found themselves in this predicament. I was given a sound foundation of morals, so I thought I would be immune. I believe now that I only avoided disaster because I was not exposed to the possibility of falling in love with someone who was not available. I have now been on both sides of the equation. Both are extremely painful. My own fall from grace has had one positive outcome-I am far less judgemental and far more understanding of the fact that we ALL screw up sometimes. And because we make bad choices, it doesn't define who we really are as a person. We all have weaknesses and frailties; even a dark side that we wish we didn't have, and would rather no one else knew about. I know for a fact that this will never be a road I travel again. Lesson learned. Not just because it didn't have the happy ending I had hoped for, but because of the self-loathing and guilt that I have endured for the past three and a half years of my involvement. It is by far the most selfish thing I've ever done in my life. I'll never understand how I gave myself permission, nor can I imagine ever forgiving myself for the damage my selfishness has caused. I said I didn't have any expectations, but I had hope. I said I would never encourage him to leave if it were not his choice, but my continued participation ultimately led to us being found out and helping to ruin his marriage.It has been emotionally torturous for an innocent party. She has been devastated by it. She is someone who was deserving of his respect, if not his affection. When you begin something like this, it is always with the delusion that you will not be found out-I didn't want her to be hurt. It was, after all, his relationship, his life choice. I kept hoping that he would eventually find the courage to do the right thing, even if it meant letting go of me. I tried to keep my own agenda out of my discussions with him and was honest and sincere in encouraging him to tell the truth-if not about me, then just the fact that he was no longer "in" the marriage. I told him that everyone has the right to know the truth so that they have the opportunity to make decisions for their own lives based upon reality. He was simply a selfish coward-yet I cannot judge him-I had many of the same feelings, guilt and confusion prior to filing for my own divorce. It appears that she may even be able to forgive him to the extent that they can still do things together with the kids as friends. but me? Well, I'll always be the villian, left holding the bag so to speak. Anyway, it was not my intention to highjack this thread-simply to give some background before giving advice...... I do not believe in forcing, tricking, or manipulating another human being to do our bidding. There are no secrets to getting him to leave. Men don't like ultimatums, either. You will not be seen in a favorable light. Simply stop participating in the deception. Choose to walk away with dignity (what's left of it) Decide to do what's in EVERYONE"S best interest and move on to something more promising. If he truly feels what he says he does, your absence will make him see for himself what his choices are. His actions will then give you your answer. I was good friends with my affair-mate for 10 years before we ever became involved. I waited patiently for him to come to the realization that I was IT. I was his best friend (he said so) his confidant, and loved him dearly. I believed he had a good heart, but was lost. I enabled him all the way. In the end, even though his wife has supposedly filed for divorce, he has broken up with me saying that he doesn't want me to wait for him as he doesn't know what he wants for his life. It is obvious that the crisis looms large and it will take time to heal, for all of us. He has asked that we remain friends as he feels it is too soon for anything else, but I can't. I've suffered enough. Have you?
LivingMyDreams Posted July 12, 2007 Posted July 12, 2007 When I went into my relationship, there were certain decisions I made. First, my life goes on regardless of whether or not he's in the picture. Second, if he ever used me as his excuse for ending his marriage I'd end our relationship. You move on because it is what's best for you, not for your fling. The worst thing a person can do in this situation is to leave a spouse for another person. It doesn't say much about the person doing the leaving, does it? If he'd do that to her he's just as likely to do that with you, too. And what does it say about what your relationship with him is built on? Another thing that contributes to this particular way of thinking is the feeling of competition, that you have to show you've "won" him from her. I've never really felt that I was competing for him. He could do as he pleased. As much as I adore this man and he is the closest I have ever known to a true partner in all aspects of life (we travel together, hate being away from each other at all, have a business together, own a house together, etc.), I've told him he could come to me at any point and tell me he needs to go back and try to work things out and I wouldn't fight for him. I'd kiss him on the cheek, wish him well and keep him and his entire family (yes, even the estranged wife) in prayer for the rest of my life. You need to find out who YOU are and what YOU'RE made of. Head games? He can get that anywhere. Manipulations? That, too. Pressure? Aren't YOU supposed to be his distraction from the pressures at home and in life? Once you put yourself on a higher pedestal and realize your own personal value, you're not going to pin your hopes and dreams on him. You won't feel a need to compete with her. You'll be happier with yourself. Not necessarily your relationship with him; I'm not sure what he's made of. Been in my relationship for nearly a year and a half. We leave in two weeks for a three-week trip to Germany, Turkey and Israel. We'll celebrate 18 months together while in Turkey. Very romantic and very memorable. And yes, she knows about me. That situation is a WHOLE OTHER post.
PoshPrincess Posted July 12, 2007 Posted July 12, 2007 Firstly, I have to say I agree with LJ and Old Europe about the '6 month rule' thing. I have always believed that, even before my A with MM. I gave him 6 months from the date we started seeing each other as DDay. I lasted for less than a week of NC before giving in to his constant harrassment and calls of undying love. How stupid of me! I wish I'd had the courage to end it then. Of course, he never did leave. Maybe he will, one day, but not for me. I don't think you can make anyone leave their H/W. Sometimes, ways you deal with things can help make or break your A (I think I dealt with things quite badly). For example, a lot of the time the man is in a EMA because 'he gets so much grief at home from W'. They think their Ws are nagging, moaning, etc......like we wouldn't be if we had to put up with them full-time!!!! Anyway, they stay with the OW for a length of time because they get the love/sex/romance/friendship or whatever, without that so-called nagging. When we start going on at them about leaving, giving them ultimatums, or just trying to control or manipulate them, they suddenly realise that the grass on the other side isn't as green as they once thought, and that's when they decide to stay put. I never gave exMM an ultimatum and only wanted him to leave because that was what he wanted - I didn't want him to leave FOR ME. It was only he started telling me he WAS going to leave that things got difficult. Maybe I should've had more patience. Who knows? All I know is the more pressure I put on him the more he pulled away. It just goes to show how spineless he really was I suppose! I think he just wanted an easy life.
frannie Posted July 12, 2007 Posted July 12, 2007 I realize you can't make anybody do something they don't want to do, but we all know it happens. Married men do leave their wives for other women.... --- the question still plagues me -- what's the trick? How do women get men to leave their wives? I haven't read any of the other responses, because the site is being too slow for me. So my response is purely to the OP. Maybe men leave because they want to leave, and feel it's right? Why make assumptions about it being anything to do with what the OW does or doesn't do..? Leaving a marriage should be about the marriage, and from everything I've read, it always is.
skindeep Posted July 13, 2007 Posted July 13, 2007 circeinvidiosa-certainly, if you had posed your question as a single, emotionally available individual seeking a relationship with a single, emotionally available man, advice and opinions might be different. It is not because we have all been "burned" and are bitter. Some of us are licking our wounds, yes, and in hindsight, might have made different choices if for no other reason than to avoid the inevitable pain. My advice would certainly not come from a moral standpoint-that would be terribly hypocrytical of me. I think most of the posters here have simply tried to give the benefit of their own life experience in this situation and forwarn you that in spite of any effort you may make to "entice" someone towards you, that ultimately you are powerless to make a difference if it is not ultimately what they decide they want. And by allowing yourself to get further involved, you are effectively enabling them to postpone having to make a decision at all. If he has taken the time to get to know you and already has feelings for you, then he is already well aware of what you can potentially "bring to the party". Giving him the gift of missing you and having to act on his feelings in a more committed fashion is the only "stategy" that will settle the matter once and for all. Just my two cents....
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