electric_sheep Posted July 3, 2007 Posted July 3, 2007 This is going to sound cynical. Have you ever been with someone that is emphatic about just how much they love you. That you are the perfect person for them, etc... and they still seem to have these intense feelings a good 2 years into the relationship. What I want to know is, don't they ever have doubts or fears? You think they do and they just don't say so? This level of assurance seems like fantasy on some level. Or maybe it's born out of insecurity. Their terror at losing something something. It seems similiar to the hesitation a deeply religious person has at questioning their faith. Like maybe they need it. I've only ever felt it before when I was in the intense initial throes of love. Am I cursed with ambigious thinking? Is it easy for others to be so sure of things? I mean, for me, I definitely love her, but I do have my moments of doubt occationally, when I really wonder if she is the best possible person for me. Or I even wonder what things would have been like if I stayed with so and so, if this or that didn't happen. I thought these kinds of moments were simply part of being human. It seems like feelings and certainty comes in cycles for me, but I seriously doubt I will ever experience an overwhelming sense of certainty, something that feels close to 100%. In a way this really makes me sad. What does a person like me do? When and who do you marry? And, if you do decide to get married, how can you recapture some of that initial craziness? Or should you even try? Everyone has such high expectations for marriage. For me to attain the level of intense romanticism that one usually associates with marriage, I would have to marry within the first year of a relationship. It's probably silly for me to think about such things. I know I sound like a girl. I just wonder how much stuff we don't tell each other? How many little secrets, fears and doubts, we keep to ourselves?
doiask42much Posted July 3, 2007 Posted July 3, 2007 I think most people, male and female, have doubts and fears. Just because men talk about them a bit less doesn't mean they don't have them. Tons of men are commitmentphobes for this very reason. I tend to agree that those who feel 100% about something feel that way because they haven't really questioned their feelings/beliefs and just accept them at face value. It's normal to have occasional doubts and fears and ponder "what if" scenarios. As long as you are mostly happy with her, I think you're doing fine. You can't really expect the initial infatuation to sustain itself over the long haul. When it comes to marriage, truly knowing and accepting each other is more important than that feeling of butterflies. When to marry someone? A year seems too soon to me. Who? That's up to you. Do you even want to get married? I don't think it's necessarily for everyone. I don't think it's easy for anyone to be completely sure of anything either. Some people just like to give the appearance of being self-assured.
doiask42much Posted July 3, 2007 Posted July 3, 2007 And I'm sure there are things you could do that might cause her to question her feelings for you, if you were so inclined. In today's faithless times, those with unshakable faith are far more the exception than the rule.
jcster Posted July 3, 2007 Posted July 3, 2007 You know, I've often asked myself the same questions. What I've decided is that (unlike me - who's as cynical as you are) some people can be that single minded. I personally think that they are somewhat deluded, but I think they've just found a way to ignore those evil dissenting voices in their head. Ironically, they seem very happy and well adjusted, while I'm often a bitter, cynical mess. I'm working on my powers of delusion as we speak.
Author electric_sheep Posted July 3, 2007 Author Posted July 3, 2007 Ironically, they seem very happy and well adjusted, while I'm often a bitter, cynical mess. I'm working on my powers of delusion as we speak. This seems to be very much true, doesn't it? I even read an article recently about research that was done on the subject. It turns out that having "magical thinking", as well as having an unrealistic view of yourself, translates into happiness and well being. Another study of people diagnosed with depression showed that they in fact had a more realistic impression of themselves, and life in general, than non-depressed people. For the first 6 to 8 months or so of this relationship, I was in a glorious state of delusion, the likes of which I never thought possible. My SO's feelings were more grounded. She fell in love slowely. For a while I even blamed her for bursting my bubble, by making the occational cynical or unromantic comment or blunder. Oddly, she is now far more romantic than me. Perhaps she sensed I was becoming a wandering sheep, or maybe it just took longer for love to work it's magic. She was just coming out of a failed relationship, and that may have made all the difference. Looking back on it, I don't think it was anything that she said or did, though she may have sped up the process. Quite likely it was just inevitable, though. Realism and cynicism was bound to rear it's ugly head again. It's just in my nature. Not that I consider myself cynical, particularly. More realistic. I just think we are all a bunch of helpless and lonely people, wandering through life, forming imperfect relationships, striving for a feeling of connection with something, anything... but ultimately everything seems to fall short, and uncertainty casts it's shadow on us. Of course, that's all it takes.
jcster Posted July 3, 2007 Posted July 3, 2007 It turns out that having "magical thinking", as well as having an unrealistic view of yourself, translates into happiness and well being. Another study of people diagnosed with depression showed that they in fact had a more realistic impression of themselves, and life in general, than non-depressed people. I read that myself! It certainly explained why my endless search for the "truth" was turning me into a bitter, depressed alcoholic. just think we are all a bunch of helpless and lonely people, wandering through life, forming imperfect relationships, striving for a feeling of connection with something, anything... but ultimately everything seems to fall short, and uncertainty casts it's shadow on us. Of course, that's all it takes. That's pretty much the way I see it, too. However, I think that it's our unrealistic expectations of perfection that skews the perception. Those "happy, shiny people" seem to accept that life isn't perfect and are completely content to calibrate their expectations to take that into account. As for being realistic, we all practice "magical thinking" on a day to day basis. In reality, we're just some little pieces of meat clinging to moss on a tiny rock in a giant abyss. Somehow, we still manage to go about our lives, if that ain't delusion, then nothing is!
Fanny Posted July 3, 2007 Posted July 3, 2007 Ironically, they seem very happy and well adjusted, while I'm often a bitter, cynical mess. I'm working on my powers of delusion as we speak. :laugh: jcster, that is the first good laugh I've had all day.
doiask42much Posted July 3, 2007 Posted July 3, 2007 I read that myself! It certainly explained why my endless search for the "truth" was turning me into a bitter, depressed alcoholic. That's pretty much the way I see it, too. However, I think that it's our unrealistic expectations of perfection that skews the perception. Those "happy, shiny people" seem to accept that life isn't perfect and are completely content to calibrate their expectations to take that into account. As for being realistic, we all practice "magical thinking" on a day to day basis. In reality, we're just some little pieces of meat clinging to moss on a tiny rock in a giant abyss. Somehow, we still manage to go about our lives, if that ain't delusion, then nothing is! Amen to you both! I read that same/similar study and often bring it up as evidence as to why I'm right and everyone else is crazy! I do this because most people I know are pretty deluded and happy with their lot and they don't get what my problem is. I've actually cited this study many times but been able to attribute to any specific source. Either of you have the info? I don't think of it as being so much single-minded as simple-minded. Ever notice how happy retarded people always are? Ok, that was messed up. But you get my point.
serial muse Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 This is going to sound cynical. Have you ever been with someone that is emphatic about just how much they love you. That you are the perfect person for them, etc... and they still seem to have these intense feelings a good 2 years into the relationship. What I want to know is, don't they ever have doubts or fears? You think they do and they just don't say so? This level of assurance seems like fantasy on some level. Or maybe it's born out of insecurity. Their terror at losing something something. It seems similiar to the hesitation a deeply religious person has at questioning their faith. Like maybe they need it. I've only ever felt it before when I was in the intense initial throes of love. Am I cursed with ambigious thinking? Is it easy for others to be so sure of things? I mean, for me, I definitely love her, but I do have my moments of doubt occationally, when I really wonder if she is the best possible person for me. Or I even wonder what things would have been like if I stayed with so and so, if this or that didn't happen. I thought these kinds of moments were simply part of being human. It seems like feelings and certainty comes in cycles for me, but I seriously doubt I will ever experience an overwhelming sense of certainty, something that feels close to 100%. In a way this really makes me sad. What does a person like me do? When and who do you marry? And, if you do decide to get married, how can you recapture some of that initial craziness? Or should you even try? Everyone has such high expectations for marriage. For me to attain the level of intense romanticism that one usually associates with marriage, I would have to marry within the first year of a relationship. It's probably silly for me to think about such things. I know I sound like a girl. I just wonder how much stuff we don't tell each other? How many little secrets, fears and doubts, we keep to ourselves? My take? I think she does indeed have those doubts...for one thing, I'll bet she's not crazy about you having doubts about her. But she'd probably twist herself into tiny little knots before she'd tell you about them. It may be because she's insecure, but it may also have to do with the fact that you've been pretty open about your fears and doubts - and I think that can sometimes trigger a response in the other partner, in which they unconsciously assume the role of the "strong" one, the "sure" one, the one who "holds the relationship together" while the other person figures out what s/he wants and who s/he is. I do think that people tend to fall into these roles at times...as though they think there isn't enough room for both people to doubt, and someone has to keep hope alive. If, for example, you were to do a 180 and express absolute certainty, it would be interesting to discover whether she'd feel freer to express her own doubts. It may be that she worries that if you both express doubts, either you or she will become convinced that the relationship is doomed. Do you ever talk to her about this, not in a challenging way, or in a way that might suggest that you want to end the relationship, but rather in an I-want-to-know-you-better kind of way? Perhaps giving her that safe space to express mixed emotions and fears might help.
This_Too_Shall_Pass Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 This is going to sound cynical. Being cynical is great. It is better than being delusional. Have you ever been with someone that is emphatic about just how much they love you. That you are the perfect person for them, etc... and they still seem to have these intense feelings a good 2 years into the relationship. What I want to know is, don't they ever have doubts or fears? You think they do and they just don't say so? This level of assurance seems like fantasy on some level. Or maybe it's born out of insecurity. Their terror at losing something something. It seems similiar to the hesitation a deeply religious person has at questioning their faith. Like maybe they need it. I've only ever felt it before when I was in the intense initial throes of love. Am I cursed with ambigious thinking? Is it easy for others to be so sure of things? More than insecurity, it's the need for constant reassurance. Is she troubled about something? Perhaps you're indiciating, in some way, that you are over that intense initial phase, and she senses that. That may be leading her to seek reaffirmation from you - to pacify herself that things will continue to be as good as they have always been. I mean, for me, I definitely love her, but I do have my moments of doubt occationally, when I really wonder if she is the best possible person for me. Or I even wonder what things would have been like if I stayed with so and so, if this or that didn't happen. I thought these kinds of moments were simply part of being human. It seems like feelings and certainty comes in cycles for me, but I seriously doubt I will ever experience an overwhelming sense of certainty, something that feels close to 100%. You answered your question yourself. Everyone experiences these feelings. But if I were you, I would think of how difficult it is to find someone you're even half-compatible with. To find a high level of compatibility, and a really great person overall, is even tougher. It's human nature to constantly crave what might be better. But once you achieve that "better", you look for something even more superior. It's never-ending, really. True, there could be hundreds of potentially great matches for you. But unfortunately, life doesn't permit sampling all of them. Because - a) you don't get the chance to meet all of them; b) because there's not enough time to really know how good each one of them is; and c) because you cannot always stay at the stage of "sampling". At some point, you have to move forward with one. What does a person like me do? When and who do you marry? And, if you do decide to get married, how can you recapture some of that initial craziness? Or should you even try? Everyone has such high expectations for marriage. For me to attain the level of intense romanticism that one usually associates with marriage, I would have to marry within the first year of a relationship. Marriage = intense romanticism? That's where you're mistaken. Love is a transformative feeling, the way you express love changes over time. What you see in the first year of a relationship is mainly the hormones at their best. You cannot make that phase last forever. Of course, the love is still there, but there's more emphasis on attachment, and a "settled" feeling of constancy. About having to marry real quick to keep the romanticism alive: First, you shouldn't marry unless you're absolutely sure of the person that she really is. And it takes time to find that out. And by the time you're sure, you'd probably be past the intense romanticism stage. That's the way it is. It's probably silly for me to think about such things. I know I sound like a girl. I just wonder how much stuff we don't tell each other? How many little secrets, fears and doubts, we keep to ourselves? It's quite normal to have these doubts. Even the best partners don't tell each other all the stuff they're thinking. Mostly because they know that those thoughts are not worth it, really. Don't create trouble where there is none. If you think there's something you can do to quell your girlfriend's doubts / fears, then do so. Think about why you and her are together in the first place. The reasons that have brought you together and kept you together, are probably good enough to keep it going.
Storyrider Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 I don't know, I think you can be cynical and a romantic at the same time. At least I am. I'm cynical about the human race in general, but I am a romantic about individuals, and I do believe magical things happen all the time. It is just that we have a grand capacity to f*ck them up eventually. But that doesn't mean they don't happen.
Trialbyfire Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 I'll be the pragmatic one in the bunch. You have two choices: - You can be negative about a relationship and if sufficiently negative, you will self-prophesize it's demise. - You can be positive about a relationship and create positive synergies between the two of you. Very self-fueling.
halfarock Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 It turns out that having "magical thinking", as well as having an unrealistic view of yourself, translates into happiness and well being. I'm so glad that I'm happy and healthy.
Author electric_sheep Posted July 4, 2007 Author Posted July 4, 2007 I'll be the pragmatic one in the bunch. You have two choices: - You can be negative about a relationship and if sufficiently negative, you will self-prophesize it's demise. - You can be positive about a relationship and create positive synergies between the two of you. Very self-fueling. I honestly think there is much truth to this, and it probably applies to a lot more than just relationships. Of course, one can't do it alone, because the other person has the same options.
Author electric_sheep Posted July 4, 2007 Author Posted July 4, 2007 It may be because she's insecure, but it may also have to do with the fact that you've been pretty open about your fears and doubts - and I think that can sometimes trigger a response in the other partner, in which they unconsciously assume the role of the "strong" one, the "sure" one, the one who "holds the relationship together" while the other person figures out what s/he wants and who s/he is. hmm. I think this is exactly what happened. I was very romantic and completely swept away at first, and she was cynical and doubting. Then, as I became less "religious" and sure about the whole thing, she became much more certain and was suddenly this romantic person. It's not even that I explicitly told her my doubts. As someone else pointed out, I think one can just sense these things. I think that willfull state of "delusion" we call "falling in love" requires both chemistry and 2 people willing to throw reality out and create a little magic. It's nice when it happens, even if it doesn't last. A testament to just how much I've come full circle is found in the title to this post, wherein I question how it is even possible. I think I too am going to work on being a little less grounded and realistic.
Author electric_sheep Posted July 5, 2007 Author Posted July 5, 2007 It's so weird... my existential crisis seems completely over now. Anyone else have these? Feelings of doubt and meaninglessness and aimlessness and hopelessness just swoop down on you, and haunt you for a day or two. You start questioning your job, your relationships, the nature of love, your purpose in life (or lack thereof), and the meaning of it all. It tortures you mercilessly, gives you insomnia, makes you crazy. You're tempted to confess things you should never confess. You wonder if she really loves you. You're tempted to quit your job and move to Prague. An almost uncontrollable desire swells up inside you to **** things up. Then... calm. It's all over, and you wonder why on Earth you were ever bothering yourself with such non-sense. I wonder if this is something I should see a doctor about?
jcster Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 Feelings of doubt and meaninglessness and aimlessness and hopelessness just swoop down on you, and haunt you for a day or two. You start questioning your job, your relationships, the nature of love, your purpose in life (or lack thereof), and the meaning of it all. It tortures you mercilessly, gives you insomnia, makes you crazy. You're tempted to confess things you should never confess. You wonder if she really loves you. You're tempted to quit your job and move to Prague. An almost uncontrollable desire swells up inside you to **** things up. GET. OUT. OF. MY. HEAD! I've been trying very hard to accept this as normal behavior. God knows it has messed my life up in the past - but that's because I actually took it seriously. I now wait to see if the feeling persists longer than a week or 2 and before I take it seriously. My Rx is usually: take 2 pints and repeat as long as symptoms persist.
doiask42much Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 It's so weird... my existential crisis seems completely over now. Anyone else have these? Feelings of doubt and meaninglessness and aimlessness and hopelessness just swoop down on you, and haunt you for a day or two. You start questioning your job, your relationships, the nature of love, your purpose in life (or lack thereof), and the meaning of it all. It tortures you mercilessly, gives you insomnia, makes you crazy. You're tempted to confess things you should never confess. You wonder if she really loves you. You're tempted to quit your job and move to Prague. An almost uncontrollable desire swells up inside you to **** things up. Then... calm. It's all over, and you wonder why on Earth you were ever bothering yourself with such non-sense. I wonder if this is something I should see a doctor about? First of all, glad you're feeling better. These "ness" feelings happen to me AT LEAST once a month. My bf says they often coincide with my period. But yeah, I can be happy as a clam then plummet to the depths of despair for a few days and then back to content again. It's interesting to know that this can happen to men too? I always got the impression it was me being a "typical girl." My bf has learned to humor me and just wait for it to blow over. He calls me a "nutty little sundae." I don't think my ponderings are ENTIRELY crazy though. I do wish my life had more certainty and direction, but beating myself up and crying because it doesn't isn't very productive. I guess it's just part and parcel of being introspective? As long as you don't let it get to you too much, like I tend to do.
doiask42much Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 er, oops...As long as you don't let it get to you too much, I think it's normal enough and you don't need to see a doctor, I don't think.
This_Too_Shall_Pass Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 Anyone else have these? Quite often, actually. I call it the Monkey-in-my-brain. Feelings of doubt and meaninglessness and aimlessness and hopelessness just swoop down on you, and haunt you for a day or two. You start questioning your job, your relationships, the nature of love, your purpose in life (or lack thereof), and the meaning of it all. It tortures you mercilessly, gives you insomnia, makes you crazy. You're tempted to confess things you should never confess. You wonder if she really loves you. You're tempted to quit your job and move to Prague. An almost uncontrollable desire swells up inside you to **** things up. The tricky part is to control the urge to act upon these thoughts you have. Because if you do act, you royally mess up everything, and it takes a long time to repair the damage. Then... calm. It's all over, and you wonder why on Earth you were ever bothering yourself with such non-sense. "It" goes back to sleep. I wonder if this is something I should see a doctor about? A vet, maybe. For ze monkey in ze brain.
jcster Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 Quite often, actually. I call it the Monkey-in-my-brain. That's fabulous! May I borrow it? "Sorry I'm so pensive guys - there's a monkey in my brain!"
This_Too_Shall_Pass Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 That's fabulous! May I borrow it? "Sorry I'm so pensive guys - there's a monkey in my brain!" Of course you can! No copyright there.
soulseeker Posted July 5, 2007 Posted July 5, 2007 excuse me if this has already been stated, as I have not read all of the replies, but... It seems to me, the intense butterfly feelings we have for another person only exist when we are unsure of their feelings for us. Once we are sure, these feelings cannot exist as they were, but one gets so much more out of a relationship in which there is legitimate mutual intoxication beyond mere pheramones, dont you think? And you have to make romance last, just as you have to make it happen in the beginning. Though it seems effortless at the beginning, it really is not. Dont you get tired of the cycle? Do you want something deeper? Quit over analyzing. I do it myself and it is so damn distructive and a complete defense mechanism. On the other hand, if she isnt the one for you, move on. So, the question is: is she not the one for you, or are you just being defensive?
mattea Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 Feelings of doubt and meaninglessness and aimlessness and hopelessness just swoop down on you, and haunt you for a day or two. You start questioning your job, your relationships, the nature of love, your purpose in life (or lack thereof), and the meaning of it all. It tortures you mercilessly, gives you insomnia, makes you crazy. You're tempted to confess things you should never confess. You wonder if she really loves you. You're tempted to quit your job and move to Prague. An almost uncontrollable desire swells up inside you to **** things up. Then... calm. It's all over, and you wonder why on Earth you were ever bothering yourself with such non-sense. Whoa! I'm right there with you! Except I want to go to Latin America Hey, is this what they call commitment-phobia? I try to manage mine by riding it out for awhile to see if I feel differently in a couple days, cause I pretty much always do. Like This_Too_Shall_Pass said, you can really screw things up if you act impulsively on your emotions.
Author electric_sheep Posted July 6, 2007 Author Posted July 6, 2007 Dont you get tired of the cycle? Do you want something deeper? Quit over analyzing. I do it myself and it is so damn distructive and a complete defense mechanism. On the other hand, if she isnt the one for you, move on. So, the question is: is she not the one for you, or are you just being defensive? I hadn't really thought of it before, but I think 'doubt' is a sort of defensive mechanism. At first, when all those chemicals and pheremones are pounding on you, it's impossible to mount any defense, and you are a true believer. Maybe that is partly what makes being "in love" so wonderful... you just open yourself up completely. Then they slowely wear off, and of course you accumulate little hurts, wounds, and resentments. Some people hold onto these wounds like they are some kind of magic talisman. I wonder what it must be like to take that plunge consciously, and just open oneself entirely and drop all your defenses. It must be like jumping off a cliff into a river. An act of surrender. It makes one vulnerable. It may be like faith itself, though. You only get strength from it if you genuinely believe, but you can't really make yourself believe. Oh jeez, look what you've done... you woke the monkey up again.
Recommended Posts