IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 3, 2007 Posted July 3, 2007 Congratulations. Is this level of sarcasm necessary toward a woman whose heart has only just been broken? I am greiving like ... I feel like somebody frigging DIED. I haven't stopped crying since - I don't know. At all. She's angry and working through her own stuff, you see alot of that coming out here. A post to you might be sometimes that the poster is triggered by what is going on in there own life. I don't think this one intended it toward you but toward HER situation. Some of us don't like all men somedays! I'm not taking resp for another posters feelings just wanted to let you know that this is soemtimes par for the course around here.
Author angel3 Posted July 3, 2007 Author Posted July 3, 2007 If he was stupid enough to make this mess, what are the odds that he's smart enough to know how to ease your heartache? Or, put another way, he doesn't know what you need from him in order for you to feel better. Spelling it out gives you a better chance of getting what you need from him. Or, put another way - there's nothing wrong in demanding your due, and demanding that he do exactly what you need him to do FOR YOU. Neither have I 'demanded' anything AT ALL of him - demanding my due?? All I did was email him a link, I didn't tell him what it was or that he had to do amything. Nor have I 'spelled it out' ... wow. Sounds like you both think that a book designed to help the cheater try to salvage the marriage (I've already sought support as the 'cheatee') are evil. Have a look at the website - I'm interested to hear if you still feel like I've just sealed my own fate. I'm not a fool, you guys. I'm a kind and intelligent woman with a broken heart. I'm distraught and confused. Even if you do think I made a mistake - a little kindness and even gentleness wouldn't hurt. Please don't slam dunk me. I'm already feeling fragile. Thanks.
norajane Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Neither have I 'demanded' anything AT ALL of him - demanding my due?? All I did was email him a link, I didn't tell him what it was or that he had to do amything. Nor have I 'spelled it out' ... wow. Sounds like you both think that a book designed to help the cheater try to salvage the marriage (I've already sought support as the 'cheatee') are evil. Have a look at the website - I'm interested to hear if you still feel like I've just sealed my own fate. I'm not a fool, you guys. I'm a kind and intelligent woman with a broken heart. I'm distraught and confused. Even if you do think I made a mistake - a little kindness and even gentleness wouldn't hurt. Please don't slam dunk me. I'm already feeling fragile. Thanks. Sorry, sweets. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I don't think you did the wrong thing. I don't think anything you do now is the wrong thing. I was reacting more to child-of-isis and her post, which implied you were on your way to enabling him to cheat again, which I totally disagree with. I don't think there's anything wrong in telling him what you need him to do for you to help you through this. If you even know what that is right now. For example, if you read through other threads here, you'll read of women who have demanded complete transparency of their cheating husbands - they get their H's passwords to email, cell phone, credit card records, etc. - so they can verify for themselves whenever they feel the need to check up on who he's talking to. Often, a cake eating cheater will lie to his wife and tell her the affair is over, but will continue to talk to the OW behind his wife's back. Your situation is different with the escorts, but if you need him to give you access to everything, you have every right to demand that he do that for you if he wants to regain your trust. Another example, if you're sick of hearing him say I'm sorry with no other words, then you have every right to tell him to stop saying that because it makes you sick to hear it. The point is, he's going to bumble around and do or not do whatever he thinks might help you. But only you are going to know if it's helping or making things worse. You shouldn't hold back in telling him what you need him to do or say or not do or not say. If you can think of things that will reassure you, tell him what those are and ask him to do those things for you. If you can think of how to regain trust, tell him what to do and hold him to it. But I think most of those things are beyond the point where you are now. Right now, you need to see him and talk to him first. There's plenty of time for you to consider next steps.
guitar71 Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 it is very possible that all he needed was sex....it is possible for guys to compartmentalize their need for sex and still love someone deeply.... it does not make it a nice thing - but you could accept that your guy always loved you and never stopped. The sex to him may be purely functional/physical and a way for him to cope with what's going on....
child_of_isis Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Of course it wasn't intended toward her. It was intended toward her H. Congratulations. Is this level of sarcasm necessary toward a woman whose heart has only just been broken? I am greiving like ... I feel like somebody frigging DIED. I haven't stopped crying since - I don't know. At all. She's angry and working through her own stuff, you see alot of that coming out here. A post to you might be sometimes that the poster is triggered by what is going on in there own life. I don't think this one intended it toward you but toward HER situation. Some of us don't like all men somedays! I'm not taking resp for another posters feelings just wanted to let you know that this is soemtimes par for the course around here.
child_of_isis Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 This is not true at all. My post had nothing to do with her. It was about her H. Geesh. The OP needs to go back and re-read the quote and let it sink in for a while. Really, it is more along the lines of what your post was saying. Your post and techniques is demanding accountability from H. Full accountability and responsibility. I was reacting more to child-of-isis and her post, which implied you were on your way to enabling him to cheat again, which I totally disagree with..
Author angel3 Posted July 4, 2007 Author Posted July 4, 2007 Thank you for clarifying, truly. Forgive me if I seem very defensive, I'm just so emotionally raw right now, and I felt judged for ... I don't know - giving an inch, maybe. Truth is I'm already pissed off at myself for ... being even marginally kind to him? I have yet to rant and scream. It's crazy - you know, it's like I'm so drained from all the crying, lack of sleep - I just don't have the energy to go off on him. Like ... I can't be bothered (for now anyway.) He actually said my calmness scared him - perhaps it's my best approach after all then. He called to thank me (again and again and ... again, ugh) for sending it to him. Said that he was hunting all over the internet for help and guidance but coming up blank, and that this link was the best he'd seen. I surprised myself with my reaction to that - I couldn't bring myself to say 'you're welcome,' even. You know? So I said, 'Yeah, well - I'm not entirely sure it was the right thing to do.' He asked 'But why?' I told him that I resented myself for even sending it to him - that I don't feel it was my responsibility to do anything for him, rather, the other way around. He said he understood. Who knows. I didn't ask if he bought the download but I assume so by the way he went on about it, so, we'll see. Anyway, I apologize if I misunderstood well-meaning support - god knows how much I need all the support I can get right now, and the last thing I mean to do is offend a friend. I assure you that (as soon as I get my little ones to bed) I will go back and reread the posts carefully. This is all so hard. And yes - I think I will have to tell him to stop saying sorry for at least a bit. And I will take the advice on holding off with the book I just received until I am in a different stage of this - I skimmed it for contents and it seems good, but I'm not ready for this stuff yet. More soon - I never decided if I should share his email - any other thoughts or interest in his ... explanation? I may just copy and paste the main parts ...
child_of_isis Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 You know what triggered me? The fact that you are dissecting every inch of the relationship to see what you are doing wrong. That is what I picked up from the previous post. The one before the book. About how you were even willing to put yourself in a position of pain to keep him happy and sexually satisfied. Oh man...that broke me into tiny tiny (and I mean tiny) pieces. Because this is what we do. We examine our behaviors to see what we could have done to prevent all of this. But, the truth is...there is nothing that we could have done. Of course we want to see the e-mail. We may be able to spot something...or something.
Lostgurl Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 it is very possible that all he needed was sex....it is possible for guys to compartmentalize their need for sex and still love someone deeply.... it does not make it a nice thing - but you could accept that your guy always loved you and never stopped. The sex to him may be purely functional/physical and a way for him to cope with what's going on.... I really don't think this is helping her any. This is the reason why she feels so betrayed. He BETRAYED her by having sex with other women. It doesn't matter if a man needs sex. He took vows on their wedding day to love only her, which entails obviously not making love to other women. It is by NO MEANS a fuctiontional way to cope. It's selfish and damaging in the highest degree. I'm sorry Angel, I wish there were words that I could give you for some comfort. I know what it feels like to be betrayed and I feel your pain. Please hang in there, You seem like a very intelligent woman and I'm sure that you'll decide what is best for you. Just try to take it easy on yourself ok? You need to try to relax alittle and not get so stressed out, your body is stressed with the illness as it is.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 I'ld like to throw an observation out on the table as food for thought. YEARS ago I worked neuro intensive care. The difference in the way that men and women handle a love one in pain, or any type of accute or chronic condition is completely different. Women nurture or try to worry it away. Men are at a loss because they can't fix it. They need to perform an action and they are powerless as there is NO action for them to perform. They don't know how to handle it very well. Here's an example: One of the kindest older gentlemen who's wife was in the unit stood her bedside during his 10 minutes with her, she was in no way terminal. He had a deer in the headlights look about him. I walked him out of the unit and into the main hall to point the way to the cafeteria and midsentence he pushed me down on the floor. I saw regret in his eyes before I hit the ground. He fell apart appoligized for weeks. He wasn't pushing ME though, he had to act. I am not saying any of this is OK. I think there is a possibility to consider that this is NOT about sex. Angel, I know that doesn't take the pain away but it is important to get to the point to see it from a more human side in order to assess your situation. In time, reread Nora's first post to you. Right now though, you are on an emotional merrygoround and like alot of us, your temper, and tone will change with your emotions. I'm sad today, and meloncholy but last night I could have taken out an army of ninja's! No one is here to judge you at all. You'll know what's right when the time comes. It's not going to be easy for a while any way you slice it.
Author angel3 Posted July 4, 2007 Author Posted July 4, 2007 Nora's first ever post to me or the first on this page? I am guessing you are referring to the one on this page (#47)- and if I am right - having read her next post to me (#53), then gone back to 47, I 'hear' it completely differently. One of the drawbacks of typing to each other rather than speaking - I did not get the tone correct. Having just read the post (46) above it and heard what I thought was sarcasm, I thought Nora's reply was also sarcastic - in other words, I misread and thought she was saying: I was only going to get a good response from H is because I was being demanding and that it therefore wouldn't be genuine. Now I see that she was actually saying: I do, in fact, have the right to BE demanding if I need to be. I think. *rolls eyes* Wow I'm tired. I hope I'm understanding more clearly now. In fact - it is actually a very supportive post. Well, don't I feel like a big doofus. Thanks NJ - my bad. And you too, child-of-isis, I think I understand what you actually meant now, too. I mistook the sarcasm as being directed at me rather than at my H. I'm just so tired and emotionally raw. I've been so totally drained tonight. I forgot tomorrow was the 4th of July until my mom asked me if I was coming over - I had to ask for what? And the thought of being around a bunch of people and having to act normal just paralyzes me. I don't know if I can fake being 'ok' - yet I don't want to have to answer questions, you know? My brothers and sisters-in-law will be there ... ugh. I just want to sit around, be on my own, think. Not have to worry about holding in my tears - I do that all day because I my children already, and that's hard enough. They're 3.5 and 5 - too young to understand their mommy crying all the time, I won't scare them like that - but they are old enough to know something is funny. It breaks my heart - all over again. I'm even too tired to talk to H. I don't want to ask any more questions, I don't want to feel so much intense emotion, just for a while - I wish I could just switch off for a bit, but absolutely nothing can distract me enough. Of course, as I always have when so distressed, I just want him here to hold me. Then I think - am I crazy? One second I want him to hold me, the next I wish I could slap him. (I never would - slap him - it's just, the opposing extremes and confusion, the push-pull, that I feel.) I need my best friend, but he's the one who hurt me. IWWH - you said it earlier, and it's true - it's like the death of a loved one, somehow. I feel just like I did when my Grams died last year and I was stuck in another country - I couldn't get home fast enough, I couldn't do anything - the time warp and confusion, the inability to eat or sleep, the exhaustion from the on-off crying, it feels the same. Nothing else feels the same anymore, though, and it's hard to believe it ever will.
Storyrider Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Hi Angel. Hang in there. I've been reading along with your thread. Don't go to your mom's for the 4th just to please your family. But maybe getting out and being around loved ones for a short time will do you good. And your kids can burn off some energy. (My kids are little too, I know how it is.) Doesn't he get home soon now? At least you will get some resolution in the sense that you can speak your mind fully, and maybe get some of your anger out. I'll be thinking about you.
Author angel3 Posted July 4, 2007 Author Posted July 4, 2007 You know what triggered me? The fact that you are dissecting every inch of the relationship to see what you are doing wrong. That is what I picked up from the previous post. The one before the book. About how you were even willing to put yourself in a position of pain to keep him happy and sexually satisfied. Oh man...that broke me into tiny tiny (and I mean tiny) pieces. Because this is what we do. We examine our behaviors to see what we could have done to prevent all of this. But, the truth is...there is nothing that we could have done. Of course we want to see the e-mail. We may be able to spot something...or something. I need to hear this. You are right - when I hear this through the ears of others, my willingness to endure pain to, to what? Help him stay faithful while I'm enduring this illness? Have I gone mad? Thank you for telling me it's not something I did. (and to everyone else who has said it too.) I need to keep hearing this, repeating it to myself. I most certainly don't blame myself directly, but in my desperate search for meaning in it all, I can't find an acceptable reason, so looked to my role. Reading this post helped me refocus. You know, I didn't need to seek out extramarital relief for my needs when he was detached for months. The thought bloody well never entered my mind! The exact opposite - I stood strong and proud of him and what he was doing. He should have done the same for me - I too am a fighter and survivor - my war is just in my body. And that brings me right back to - how could he? Let me get this email he sent me ....
IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Nora's post #20, yes, her first post to you. As for the party, our neighbor throws the most wonderful 4th party you could imagine for the neighbors and their friends. My family is already buzzing and my 10 year old can't sleep. I'm going to develop a headache and stay home at the last minute. NOWAY can I handle that. I don't feel like pretending right now, I don't wanna play. I've actually had a headache for a week now but the excuse wearing thin.
Author angel3 Posted July 4, 2007 Author Posted July 4, 2007 SR - thanks for following this, and for your kind words. I can't tell you how much the support means to me right now. I think you're right - getting out will do me some good. And the kids need to too, very much - and they can play with their uncles and maybe I can just *be* for a little while. He gets in very late tomorrow night, shortly after midnight or so. I'm relieved but equally ... nervous? I don't feel like I know him now. I don't know what I will say or do. But I am certainly looking forward to being able to speak without the darkness of the telephone between us. Ok, here it is: drumroll ... his email to me this evening: I have just spent the last hour or so looking at places on the internet that do marriage counseling near us. There is a guy in (town) who I'm going to call today and get an appointment to see if we can fix this. I think this will help because one of the reasons I am having a hard time talking to you right now is that I can hear the pain in your voice, and I know that it is pain that I have caused. I guess I'm hoping that a counselor will be able to keep our talking on a constructive track, rather than me getting all inward and depressed as I am feeling right now. I will let you know if I get hold of the guy, but I need to know if it is something you are willing to do with me, if you still love me enough, if at all, to try to resurrect the beautiful thing that we had before I so thoughtlessly destroyed it. That is the bottom line, I acted thoughtlessly. I did not think about the hurt and pain it would cause for me to do this. All I thought of was my own physical and physiological needs, and that maybe somehow I could fulfill those without you knowing, and therefore feeling that unimaginable pain. I have never felt as low as I do right now, never in my life. I just want it all to go away. I wish I could turn back the clock and undo everything. I know however that I can't. All I can do is try to convince you that I still love you with all my heart, and I still want to spend the rest of my life with you, even though I know everything is different now, even though I know you will never look at me the same ever again. I still want you in my life, I still need you in my life, and I cannot imagine life without you in it. I also feel so sad for the boys. They will probably never really understand why you cried for so long these past two days, other than to think that Daddy had hurt Mommy somehow. I have to live with that too, and that hurts as much as knowing that I have caused you direct suffering. I will never forgive myself for this senseless act of selfish physical gratification. It makes me physically sick to even try to imagine the pain you must be feeling right now, especially as I caused that pain. But here is the thing, I beg you, I pray that there is some way you can allow me to try to repair the damage that I have caused. I will do anything to fix this, anything. I hope the counseling can be the first step and if you're willing I will make an appointment. I would also change careers, if that is what it takes. All I know right now is that I am so, so sorry for what I have done. So sorry. I love you more that life itself, and I want desperately for you to need me, love me and want me again for the man that I know I was, and can be again. I said to you that I wanted to feel like a man again, but this doesn't feel like being a man. I feel like a worthless piece of ****. But I want to fix this, I love, need and want you, and I want you to somehow love, need and want me again too. I haven't sent you flowers, because I feel like that would permanently devalue me ever sending you flowers ever again, and I want to send you flowers again in the future for no reason, without there being a stigma attached. Somehow I hope we can get through this, because when my mind goes to a place where you are not in my life, I am physically sick to my stomach, and have a pain in my heart that is worse than any physical pain I have ever endured. Please, please give me a chance to reconcile our lives together. I cannot bear the thought of being without you. I hope I have made some sense, I don't feel like I have but then I have just typed without thinking. Pouring out my feelings, not trying to say what I think you might want me to say. I love you honey, with all my heart, and I hope someday you will be able to contemplate my forgiveness. I am praying for us. I love you, (H) So, there it is. thoughts?
IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 He sounds very sincere to me. VERY smart move with the flowers, atleast he's getting that. You could pick it apart for hours though I suppose. Do you remember the reason that the betrayed wasn't supposed to read the book, it then becomes a test of sorts. You mastered #'s 4-7, haven't even attempted 9-15, and 1, 2, 3, and 8 you failed miserably at. That makes complete sense to me. Take what he gives you as consideration. Know that you are not going to LIKE any of it. Its a living hell when the one person you thought you could always count on you can't lean on. He also seems to be questioning his career choice and being away from you and the kids it seems. Would that be possible?
Author angel3 Posted July 4, 2007 Author Posted July 4, 2007 Hey IWWH - I thought that too about the flowers. I must admit I had been wondering why he hadn't, considering he's a flowers-kinda-guy, so here he is having made a huge foul up, and nothing, no texts, email, flowers ... eesh, not that I expect them, you see, but ... when he often sends them - you know what I mean. But yeah - I think that would have pissed me off, the assumption that pretty plants would ease the pain - would have pissed me off more than the ten second skipping record of 'I'm so sorry.' But yes, I hear him trying, and I believe he is sincere. It's something. I'm glad about the couples therapy, too. The career comment he made - that comes from a conversation we had earlier today. The 5 'episodes' occurred during his 6 week absence, training for this new job - he hadn't even started it properly yet. I had said to him that I was particularly worried about being able to trust him now and in the future, because by it's definition, this career takes him away 50-60% of the year, all over the country - and there is no alternative to that - it is the job. So he had said to me that he was willing to do anything, including changing to a home-every-night job if it was necessary. At least this shows me he does realize the enormity of this and the far-reaching effects it will continue to have. I'm going to develop a headache and stay home at the last minute. NOWAY can I handle that. I don't feel like pretending right now, I don't wanna play. I've actually had a headache for a week now but the excuse wearing thin.That is EXACTLY how I feel; I'll see if I'm up for it tomorrow, but blah, right? Too bad we can't get together in our bathrobes and eat bon-bons and hide from the rest of the celebrating country, eh? Perhaps a cyber-camp out may be in order. A 4th cyber-BBQ for BS's. Fuzzy slippers required.
marlena Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 I'm hoping that an objective view of his actions from a stranger on the internet might help you see that his actions don't necessarily mean that your whole relationship and life together has been a lie or meaningless....to see that his actions - to me - point to him giving in to the weakness he was feeling after a long time of struggling. I think he cracked under the pressure. I agree with Nora Jane's post from start to finish. Angel, you have been suffering for a very long time and it is my beleif that your husband has felt every single pain that has assaulted your body. When someone we love deeply suffers, we not only suffer along with them but the feeling of helplessness is overiding and debilitating to the extreme. I watched my father waste away due to a stroke and life had become a living hell for me because there was NOTHING I could do to stop it. The pressure like NJ said was overwhelming. I felt alone and frightened and sought comfort in the first man who paid any attention to me!!! My mother died before my mother because she could not stand to see her husband this way. She gave up and willed herself to die! She was in my house. I discovered her lifeless body in the morning! A died a thousand deaths! And I reached out for my lover! I needed the solace of arms holding me tight and yes, I needn't the sex. It was a kind of an escape - a release from all that was burdening my soul. I am convinced that your husband loves you dearly and has been very supportive. I agree with NJ that the pressure was gathering fiercely and he needed an emotional and physical outlet! After all, he is only human. The fact that he chose not to have an affair but rather resort to an escort service only reinforces the idea that he needed some kind of physical outlet. Hold on to your marriage! You both can get around this I am sure! He sounds like a good man (and believe me , they are a dying species). I am sure that when the time comes to have that talk face - to - face, he will understand your feelings. Try to give him some slack for there are mitigating factors here that shoul not be overlooked! Above all, take care of your health. Your children need you ans so does your husband! Keep posting. Everyone here is listening!
shadowofman Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 angel, please don't think I'm just trying to poop on this party. Most of the time I'm more interested in the big picture, on the scale of society and human kind, but I've taken a keen interest in your story for some reason. That was a very nice letter he wrote. I can tell that he loves you very, very, much and he IS definately sorry for causing you this pain. However, something that needs to be explored is this.... is that the only reason he is sorry. The fact that you found out and were hurt by his actions. He said...... I did not think about the hurt and pain it would cause for me to do this. All I thought of was my own physical and physiological needs, and that maybe somehow I could fulfill those without you knowing, and therefore feeling that unimaginable pain. That happens to be exactly what I would have said. If you never found out on your own, would his guilt have been overwelming enough to confess? I don't think he ever would have told you because that would have caused you the pain your feeling now. Does this mean that 5 years from now, when this seems to be beyond the horizon, he may be willing to take another chance with the 'what she doesn't know...' rationalization? I think he is sorry for hurting you! I think he is sorry that you found out! I think his male mind is utterly incapable of being sorry for the sex. I think this is a POV that is closer to the truth than some others maybe, and at the same time so utterly inconvienient, I think the only option is to never trust again. He loves you and would probably die for you. Maybe he will be so scared of you feeling this way a second time, that he will immediately chase all unfaithful thoughts from his brain the moment they are noticed, but maybe, overtime, he will rationalize a decision to do it again. You know him, I don't.
LakesideDream Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Angel, I havent posted since the first day, I have been following though. Being male, (abet an "old" male) I can tell you without regret that people often do really stupid things. I know I have. I can also tell you that it seems to me that the frequency and severity of those stupid things seems to be in a realtionship to their age. Not suprising, the younger you are the less experiance and self control one has. You appear to be a wonderful young woman worthy of love and respect. Your husbands sounds like a young man, who made a very serious error and is scrambling to repair the damage he's done. I've been where you are in different circumstances. I do understand how you feel. The pain you are going through will be among the worst you will ever experiance. For me, it was by far the worse, and I've been shot three times! Your choices won't be easy ones. The only thing I can add is that, when there is love, there is hope. Your husbands email sounded sincere.
child_of_isis Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 I am going to play the hardass for you ;-) Thereare a couple of things that I noticed. This one..There is a guy in (town) who I'm going to call today and get an appointment to see if we can fix this. The "we" bothered me. I would tell him straight up that "we" weren't fixing anything...HE is. He broke it, he can fix it. Then this one: I guess I'm hoping that a counselor will be able to keep our talking on a constructive track, rather than me getting all inward and depressed as I am feeling right now. The word constructive bothered me. To me, this means that you are not allowed to yell and scream and tell him what a POS he is. And who gives a damn if HE is depressed? HE may be depressed, but your entire reality has been destroyed. You have lost total faith and trust in the one person that you KNEW always had your back. Depression is a piece of cake compared to that. If he does get all depressed, it will be because the talk was not 'constructive" (you yelled and called him a POS) This is why the BS is not supposed to read the book. In all probabilities it has hints like this one in it: I haven't sent you flowers, because I feel like that would permanently devalue me ever sending you flowers ever again, and I want to send you flowers again in the future for no reason, without there being a stigma attached. I said to you that I wanted to feel like a man again. Evidently you didn't make him feel like a man? because when my mind goes to a place where you are not in my life, I am physically sick to my stomach, and have a pain in my heart that is worse than any physical pain I have ever endured. This goes back to being sorry for what he could lose. and I still want to spend the rest of my life with you, even though I know everything is different now, even though I know you will never look at me the same ever again. I still want you in my life, I still need you in my life, and I cannot imagine life without you in it. What about what you want? This is about nothing but HIS wants and needs. All I thought of was my own physical and physiological needs, and that maybe somehow I could fulfill those. Ack! Ack! and double ack! You weren't fullfilling his needs, so somebody had to do it. than to think that Daddy had hurt Mommy somehow. He doesn't want to look bad in the kiddies eyes. I would also change careers, if that is what it takes. It's this dang job that has me buying hookers. There is little doubt that he read the book and is saying what he needs to say to make it right. Of course he sounds sincere. He is sincere. He is scared too death of losing everything. I hope the counseling can be the first step and if you're willing I will make an appointment. evidently if you say you are not willing, he doesn't feel the need to go to counseling to find out why HE buys hookers? I still want you in my life, I still need you in my life, and I cannot imagine life without you in it. Notice the I want, I need...he is going on about his wants and needs quite a bit. add up his "I"s, then compare them to his "you's". That would be an interesting excersize. I could fulfill those without you knowing, and therefore feeling that unimaginable pain. Do notice the word unimaginable. He is definitely not feeling what you are. Not even close. Hell, he can't even IMAGINE what you are feeling. That is a very scary thought. I also feel so sad for the boys. Uh oh! He is playing the mommy card on you. P.S. Do keep in mmind that I am playing the hardass and am critquing from that view point. I could pick this apart all day ;-)
child_of_isis Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Here is an example (sorry, I'm jaded and can't help myself ;-) Somehow I hope we can get through this, because when my mind goes to a place where you are not in my life, I am physically sick to my stomach, and have a pain in my heart that is worse than any physical pain I have ever endured. Please, please give me a chance to reconcile our lives together. I cannot bear the thought of being without you. The "I's have 4. If we want to include the "my"'s (my mind,my life, my stomach, my heart). H scores 3 more. I also guess we should count the me (give me a chance)...score 1 more. the "you's get a 2... but it is still about him and what he will not have. You will not be in his life...without you. Score 2 more for H. (we, our) Which includes both him and you... so we can give you a point and H a point. score: 12 for H. 1 for you.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Angel, I do not believe at a time when he is scared ****less of loosing you that he is choosing his words with that much though. Whether he got it out of a book or not, the flower thing is priceless. I was gifted regularly throughout the affair, a gift now is a trigger that releases powerful emotions now, hurtful ones. So what where he got it. Asking for help to not revert into himself sounds introspective to me, like he wants help to deal with his own hurtful feelings. If he is a man with a heart and not a cake eater, then he really hates himself right now. That is what I heard. I'm so in on the cyber camp-out but only if I can wear my strappy sandals, I'm so not a fuzzy slipper kind of girl!!! Not that they go with the sleep pants and tank I've had on for 3 days. If your up to it, go to the party, it might be a break to be forced not to think about it. I know you're anxious about tonight. I for one will be thinking about you. Keep an open mind and remember anything you do or feel is ok and validated and if you change your position in the next 20 seconds, well, thats ok too. If he's flying home he's will have probably read the book by now. Looks like an easy fast read. Its actually behind me on the desk right now, but I'm not going to peak! Alot of the questions in my mind were answered by the FAQ's page, and it actually isn't a money maker as it was given out for years without payment. They still offer gift copies to people in need. Don't over analyze everything. If he's willing to change jobs to be back home you might want to consider it with him. TRAVELING regularly is very hard on married couples especially with young kids. You might want to google to learn a little of the psychology behind it but it is more than just a spouse having an opportunity to cheat. If there were any way around it, I'ld take it, as I know MANY women in this position. It creates a strange dynamic in the family. Did you get any sleep last night?
norajane Posted July 4, 2007 Posted July 4, 2007 Ok, I'll play - I'll give an alternate reading of the same text. This one..There is a guy in (town) who I'm going to call today and get an appointment to see if we can fix this. The "we" bothered me. I would tell him straight up that "we" weren't fixing anything...HE is. He broke it, he can fix it. He can't fix it alone, and he knows that. It does take two people who want to repair a marriage. If she doesn't want to try, then nothing he does is going to make a difference. Then this one: I guess I'm hoping that a counselor will be able to keep our talking on a constructive track, rather than me getting all inward and depressed as I am feeling right now. The word constructive bothered me. To me, this means that you are not allowed to yell and scream and tell him what a POS he is. And who gives a damn if HE is depressed? HE may be depressed, but your entire reality has been destroyed. You have lost total faith and trust in the one person that you KNEW always had your back. Depression is a piece of cake compared to that. If he does get all depressed, it will be because the talk was not 'constructive" (you yelled and called him a POS) He's not referring to her yelling, screaming, or HER anything. He's referring to HIS ability to talk in a constructive way vs. clamming up. Most men I know aren't good at expressing their feelings, especially the deeper those feelings run. I think he's hoping a marriage counselor can force him to keep talking instead of just sitting there like a miserable lump. (I speak from experience - when I confronted the man in my life who had cheated on me, it was like pulling teeth to get him to talk - he knew he had no defense and didn't know what to say to make it better so he just took in all my anger quietly, which was somehow even more infuriating to me). This is why the BS is not supposed to read the book. In all probabilities it has hints like this one in it: I haven't sent you flowers, because I feel like that would permanently devalue me ever sending you flowers ever again, and I want to send you flowers again in the future for no reason, without there being a stigma attached. It's possible. But he had to have been a guy who sent flowers for no reason to begin with in order for that to even apply, and if he's that kind of guy, it's not a bad hint if she chooses to forgive him. I, personally, haven't yet been able to look at a vase of red roses without wanting to smash them into his face. I said to you that I wanted to feel like a man again. Evidently you didn't make him feel like a man? This is the crux of the problem. I wouldn't automatically assume that angel didn't make him feel like a man. I see this as he didn't feel like a man because he was helpless in the face of her illness because he could do nothing for angel, and (stupidly and thoughtlessly) took the route he thought would make hims feel better. I kinda see this as what they really need to focus on so he can explain WTF he's talking about - this is what drove him to do what he did. But I don't think he's blaming angel - this is his failing. because when my mind goes to a place where you are not in my life, I am physically sick to my stomach, and have a pain in my heart that is worse than any physical pain I have ever endured. This goes back to being sorry for what he could lose. Is it really a bad thing that he doesn't want to lose her? Shouldn't he feel pain at the thought of losing her? I, personally, would want to know that he is suffering at the thought of losing me. and I still want to spend the rest of my life with you, even though I know everything is different now, even though I know you will never look at me the same ever again. I still want you in my life, I still need you in my life, and I cannot imagine life without you in it. What about what you want? This is about nothing but HIS wants and needs. Same comment as the one above - I would want to know that he needs me and would suffer without me. All I thought of was my own physical and physiological needs, and that maybe somehow I could fulfill those. Ack! Ack! and double ack! You weren't fullfilling his needs, so somebody had to do it. Yep, he's admitting that he only thought of himself. You'd be surprised how many men won't even admit what they did was selfish. than to think that Daddy had hurt Mommy somehow. He doesn't want to look bad in the kiddies eyes. I read that and thought: good. he recognizes that what he did hurts the whole family, and admits it. If you read some of the threads here, you'll see that a lot of people won't face up to the fact that when they cheat, they are cheating on and hurting the whole family. They insist they are still great fathers (or mothers) despite the fact they are carrying on a double life. I would also change careers, if that is what it takes. It's this dang job that has me buying hookers. I read that as: good, he is willing to make changes and do whatever it takes, even if it means changing jobs. Goes back to what I was saying about angel having the right to demand whatever she needs in order to rebuild trust. It would be far worse if she wanted him to take a job that would keep him home and he refused... There is little doubt that he read the book and is saying what he needs to say to make it right. Of course he sounds sincere. He is sincere. He is scared too death of losing everything. Again, I would hope he is scared to death of losing everything. If he's not, there's no point in even trying to repair the marriage. I hope the counseling can be the first step and if you're willing I will make an appointment. evidently if you say you are not willing, he doesn't feel the need to go to counseling to find out why HE buys hookers? I don't know if he's willing to go to individual counseling. I think he was referring specifically to the marital counseling, and perhaps hadn't even considered that he needs to go by himself to IC, too. I still want you in my life, I still need you in my life, and I cannot imagine life without you in it. Notice the I want, I need...he is going on about his wants and needs quite a bit. add up his "I"s, then compare them to his "you's". That would be an interesting excersize. And again, I'd rather hear that than, hey, whatever you want, whatever you decide, is up to you, I won't fight for you. I could fulfill those without you knowing, and therefore feeling that unimaginable pain. Do notice the word unimaginable. He is definitely not feeling what you are. Not even close. Hell, he can't even IMAGINE what you are feeling. That is a very scary thought. Sure, it is unimaginable. Someone who has not been betrayed has NO IDEA how it feels. They can try to imagine it, but they will not succeed. It's a special breed of pain. I would find it far worse if he had said he knew how she felt and could imagine it....because I'd know he couldn't and if he thought he could, he was making too light of it. P.S. Do keep in mmind that I am playing the hardass and am critquing from that view point. I could pick this apart all day ;-) I just wanted to show you can see it any number of ways. That's why posting here is good - lots of views to consider.
Author angel3 Posted July 4, 2007 Author Posted July 4, 2007 This is good guys - really good, what I need to hear. Thank you for taking time with this, and for your help and support. I take it all in, every word. In fact, I agree with a lot of what's been said - and as for which POV, that depends on the moment - one minute I'm leaning one way, and then in a flash, the other. And then there's the phone calls - more on that in a minute - but before I go into this morning's update, let me throw this out there. I got another email. Again, he sounds sincere, I think .... but I don't know ... as I worked my way through it, I don't know, I started to feel ... irritated by his, wording? Like, I feel like he is trying to do the right thing here, but ... well, you can read for yourself and see what I mean. (he and I already discussed this new email this morning, and I'll fill you in on that after I get some stuff here at home sorted, and can come back here for some me-time. But I can tell you this much - I think I'm entering the angry phase.) Here it is, and I'll be back soon with more details and what I had to say to him about it: Dear (angel), My heart hurts. Not because of something I feel but because of something you are feeling right now. The pain you are feeling right now is something I caused, and my heart hurts because of that pain. A pain I caused, and a pain I cannot take away with a medication or remedy. I have spent the afternoon dwelling on my own inadequacies as a man and as a husband that led me to do what I did. I should have come to talk to you, but I was afraid. Afraid of how I was feeling and afraid of how you’d see me. And yet the way you see me now after the course of action I chose, strikes more fear into my heart than anything I felt before. I never wanted to hurt you. I know that sounds empty right now but it’s true. I love you more than words can ever express, written or spoken. I hate myself right now for what I’ve put you through. I’ve never really known what it feels like to really despise anyone before, and it’s a strange feeling to despise myself. I don’t want to even be alone with myself, because I feel like I want to shake myself like a scolded child. You do not deserve the way I have treated you, and the way I have betrayed the trust you invested in me is plainly and simply wrong. Wrong. I know that and I wish I could go back to that place and talk some sense into myself, make myself understand that no circumstances can ever justify my behavior. All I know right now is that I want to try to earn back that respect, trust and friendship that I know I have so uncaringly destroyed. I probably don’t deserve to be able to even say that, and a lesser human being than you would probably not even give me the chance to talk, let alone try to reconcile. The fact that we are still talking after such a disastrous set of circumstances at least tells me one thing that I am desperately holding onto. I hope and pray that the fact you are still talking to me means that you still care enough about what we have or had, to try to get through this. I know in my heart of hearts that things are all different now, but I still love you. I still love only you. You are my life, and I cannot bear the thought of not seeing you first thing in the morning and last thing at night for the rest of my miserable and meager existence. I can only apologize so many times without it becoming an empty set of words, and I don’t want it to become that. I am more sorry about this than anything else in my life, ever. I want to invent a time machine and go back and change everything about what happened – make it go away, but I know I can’t. The only thing I can do is tell you that I love you, and I want this marriage to work, somehow. Whatever it takes. I have accepted in my own head and heart that I may have done irreparable damage to us, but I have faith (blind faith maybe) that somehow we can get through this. What I did was beyond stupid – it defies belief, and I hate myself as I already said. I guess my faith lies in the fact that, if I didn’t want to take a step back to you, I would have accepted my infidelity as a notification that our marriage was over, but that is not the case. I want to take that step, even if I don’t know where it will lead. I don’t want to even think about the words ‘over’ and ‘us’ in the same sentence. I am so sorry for the pain I have caused you, and although you have no reason to believe this, I will never put you through anything like this ever again. I believe that you still love me, I truly believe that And if you do, I pray that you will allow me to try and make amends for what I have done, because I still think we have something worth saving. I know a lot of these words will seem empty to you right now but maybe if you read it more than once it may make some sense. I am just so ashamed of how much pain I’ve caused, and how I’ve disrespected our marriage. I want to try and make you love me again, I just hope it isn’t too late. You have always been smarter than me in the human relations department, you read people and understand underlying sentiment better than I ever have. But there is no hidden agenda here. I have made horrible choices, really horrible choices and I can never change that. But I accept the fact that I made those choices, and I know how wrong they were. It will take an awful long time for me to ever forgive myself (if ever) for what I have done so I am not expecting an instant reconciliation here. But I hope we can still talk through this. I cried a lot today, in my little room, under the covers on my bottom bunk bed in case anyone came in. I am so ashamed of myself. Please believe me when I say that I am truly sorry. I love you and I care very deeply about you. Always have, always will – that will never, ever change. No matter what. Yours always, (H) Mmm hmm. How about them apples? Let's just say that despite ... his efforrt? or - whatever - I wasn't very happy with a lot of these words and their implications. More asap - very interested in your interpretations.
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