she flirts and I worry

[bish]

Percy, there's a limit to flirting. The more often you enroach on the line of decency, the more you'll be tempted to cross it. Harmless flirting can turn into flirting with intent, if there's chemistry.

 

I get the impression you want reassurance that everything is okay, rather than any real advice or opinions. Do whatever resonates more with you but know one thing. When it comes to spousal cheating, if you're a balanced individual, your gut instinct is usually correct.

 

Exactly. A little run of the mill flirting is one thing, even though I wouldn't like it, I wouldn't fly off the handle about it.

 

But giving another man that she has been alone with the "I want to f#ck you" eyes is quite seriously another.

[PollyIvy]

Hi Percy. About my flirting: I have little crushes that come and go, and when I am sweet on someone I will talk with them a lot (like in a group or at a party) and hold more eye contact. I don't flirt in a flirty way. I find that men respect that I am married, and respect my husband too, so it is very rare that someone actually makes a pass at me, although there is often plenty of chemistry flying around. As I said before, it's fun and makes me feel great. My H likes that I am still attractive, and doesn't care who I talk with or hang out with. I don't have a 'reputation' at all. Should mention that we are very social and go out a lot and we are both drinkers, so being slightly under the influence doesn't change things for me.

I feel confident in my boundaries, because I did in fact have an affair, so I know what that is all about and how exhausting it was (it was never discovered), and my little crushes are not in that category at all (my marriage is not in the bad state it was in at the time either, I'm happy to say).

A bit of fluff like this Spanish fella - your wife would have to be feeling pretty reckless, desperate or stupid to go for something as indiscreet as that. I would bet that she has had impure thoughts about the guy though! How long has your bad feeling about this been going on? If it's just a bit of fun, she should lose interest soon...?

A lot of people talk about how easy it is for things (a bit of sexual tension, an attraction) to turn into an affair, but I just don't get that. The actual move - the first kiss - with a married woman, it is a huge deal and doesn't 'just happen'. Then to go into the planning, secrecy, and organizing (all very unsexy) to create the opportunity for sex - all of that doesn't always just 'happen' automatically either.

[Percy]

Thanks, PollyIvy - I actually checked some of your other posts yesterday and read about your A, but wasn't sure whether your H ever knew. I also have seen posts from you suggesting that an A can occasionally strengthen a marriage. I want to thank you and the others on this site for giving me the strength to tackle this, which we did last night. It wasn't easy. I will update later on.

[Percy]

Well, I think I have got to the truth, although it was very difficult for both of us to get there. No doubt without the courage given to me by some of your comments, I wouldn't have persevered, so I am grateful for that.

 

Clearly, my worries have been justified. Turns out my W has been harbouring a major "teenage" crush on this guy for a while, since the time of the first party. They have not met very often and there has been one drunken kiss, on one occasion (the first party); that time, my W drew the line at anything more, on our doorstep. Since then, he has been reluctant to get close to her, which has I think resulted in the crush increasing in intensity. The trip to see the horse was an effort on his side to show her that they could be alone together without things getting out of hand - I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but it seems that he is trying hard not to get too involved.

 

I can forgive her the crush, no problem at all - I understand how excited and flattered by his attention she must have been. I am deeply thankful that there has been no physical affair, although maybe if there had, it might have made it easier for her to get over him.

 

What has really hurt me is that it was so difficult to get to the truth, but fortunately I had become so certain something wasn't right that I had the courage to press to the end. I should certainly have picked up on this sooner.

 

Now begins the next phase.

[bish]

Hi Percy. About my flirting: I have little crushes that come and go, and when I am sweet on someone I will talk with them a lot (like in a group or at a party) and hold more eye contact. I don't flirt in a flirty way. I find that men respect that I am married, and respect my husband too, so it is very rare that someone actually makes a pass at me, although there is often plenty of chemistry flying around. As I said before, it's fun and makes me feel great. My H likes that I am still attractive, and doesn't care who I talk with or hang out with. I don't have a 'reputation' at all. Should mention that we are very social and go out a lot and we are both drinkers, so being slightly under the influence doesn't change things for me.

I feel confident in my boundaries, because I did in fact have an affair

 

See...there you go. I didn't say anything about her flirting and being "sweet" on other guys, because I figured I'd get the, I have never cheated on anyone speech.

 

but you did cheat. And since you did cheat, your husband should find your behavior unacceptable. If he is ok with it, then he is only setting himself up to be the fool again.

 

So your word to Percy about how your flirting is harmless is nothing of the sort. Not bashing you here, but in one breath you say your crushes and heavy flirting with guys are harmless, but on the other hand you are the cheating type.

[bish]

Well, I think I have got to the truth, although it was very difficult for both of us to get there. No doubt without the courage given to me by some of your comments, I wouldn't have persevered, so I am grateful for that.

 

Clearly, my worries have been justified. Turns out my W has been harbouring a major "teenage" crush on this guy for a while, since the time of the first party. They have not met very often and there has been one drunken kiss, on one occasion (the first party); that time, my W drew the line at anything more, on our doorstep.

 

Uh huh....thats a good one. Let me tell you something from experience. A cheater usually always tells you that it stopped at a kiss. They do this to give you the perception that they are being honest with you. You figure, "well, she told me that much, she must be telling the truth"

 

Dude, if they kissed, and she was so far away from you there would be not chance she would get caught, and they were drinking, and he took her home and got as far as the doorstep.....you can bet your bank that she took him inside and did everything else.

 

She lied to you about nothing happening...then now, she told you they kissed. Thats how it works, they turn the lie into a smaller lie to make you think they are trustworthy and that you can believe what they say.

 

Look at the facts...with everything you told us she did..do you really think it stopped at a kiss?

 

Since then, he has been reluctant to get close to her, which has I think resulted in the crush increasing in intensity.

 

No...it would probably be because your wife talked to him and told him that you are on to them.

 

The trip to see the horse was an effort on his side to show her that they could be alone together without things getting out of hand - I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but it seems that he is trying hard not to get too involved.

 

You are not going to get flamed. All i have to say is that line about showing her that they could be alone and things not get out of hand is a load of crap.

 

You know how he can show that things won't get out of hand? he doesn't suggest being alone AT ALL. He doesn't go partying with the wife of another man. Not purposely inviting her to be alone with him to test boundaries. That is just plain old lying....either on her part or his depending on which one of them said this to you.

 

I can forgive her the crush, no problem at all - I understand how excited and flattered by his attention she must have been. I am deeply thankful that there has been no physical affair, although maybe if there had, it might have made it easier for her to get over him.

 

No, that would have made it harder. And I still think they did have a physical affair.

 

What has really hurt me is that it was so difficult to get to the truth, but fortunately I had become so certain something wasn't right that I had the courage to press to the end. I should certainly have picked up on this sooner.

 

Now begins the next phase.

 

And what would the next phase be? It should be you move on with her, since it is obvious you are going to downplay her actions because you can't bear the thought of being without her, but you should move on with her and stand up for yourself. For one thing, vacations to your 2nd home without you should not be happening. There is a reason she is going without you. Out of sight out of mind. When cat's away the mice will play.

 

And you should set boundaries. Let her know you are on to her actions and they are unacceptable. She should know that if she is caught in a compromising position again, there will be consequences. I know you won't do it, but you should at least bring up divorce.

[squeak]

Uh huh....thats a good one. Let me tell you something from experience. A cheater usually always tells you that it stopped at a kiss. They do this to give you the perception that they are being honest with you. You figure, "well, she told me that much, she must be telling the truth"

 

Dude, if they kissed, and she was so far away from you there would be not chance she would get caught, and they were drinking, and he took her home and got as far as the doorstep.....you can bet your bank that she took him inside and did everything else.

 

She lied to you about nothing happening...then now, she told you they kissed. Thats how it works, they turn the lie into a smaller lie to make you think they are trustworthy and that you can believe what they say.

 

Look at the facts...with everything you told us she did..do you really think it stopped at a kiss?

 

After reading so many posts at loveshack, this does seem to be the pattern as Bish pointed out.

 

This part is bad, because he will always be left wondering if there was more, Bish: how does he find out for certain if that was all ??

 

This onion is stinking more and more that the layers are peeled back.....

 

Your instincts were right Percy, even though it hurts, you should be glad you caught it when you did.

 

This is a vicious circle, but because you caught the first lie, and she upheld it until recently, then she modified it and added in the kiss, there was still a cover up on top of cover up.

 

This is where the problems lie, at what layer do you know is the final one????

[EnigmaXOXO]

I'd really like some female perspective on this - can you continue to flirt "innocently" with a good-looking guy who has become a good friend and who has made a pass at you before?

 

Women instinctively know how to set the bait. And for the most part, playing “coy” and pretending “it’s all just innocent fun” is actually part of the hook. Yeah. As a female, I could absolutely flirt with some guy I wasn’t interested in shagging IF I were enjoying the attention or the effect I was having over him in some egocentric way.

 

However, if I found the guy even mildly attractive on the physical level AND a compatible, “fun” and interesting to hang around on a friendly level ... than the initial “innocent flirting” might begin to take on a life all of it’s own should the surmounting sexual tension between them suddenly “snap” and someone forgets where those invisible boundaries are.

 

It’s evident that this male “friend” is more than just a little bit intrigued by your wife’s playful flirting. It’s also fairly predictable, since men have a more difficult time formulating platonic friendships with females without some small part of them imagining or fantasizing about what it would be like. Unless there is something hideously repulsive about your wife, it’s likely he’ll bide his time patiently until he sees some sign of a vulnerability or opening on her part. Folks are often squeamish about admitting it, but for the most part, it’s the females who set the boundaries and govern the direction their platonic relationships with their male friends take.

 

Given you’re wife’s past behavior and attitude towards “flirting” so far ... it’s really up to YOU to decide whether or not you can trust her to continue maintaining those boundaries.

 

Personally ... I’m with Bryanp. She’s playing with fire.

[Trialbyfire]

Much of this is reliant on the type of person you are and what your end goal is. If you want to save the marriage, it's probably best to not know all the details (not graphic). In knowing all the details, you will find it more difficult to forgive, nvm forget. On the other hand, in not knowing the details, you also leave yourself wide open to get bent over, one more time.

 

One word of warning. Someone who needs constant ego-stroking rarely stops needing it...

[mental_traveller]

She got a bruise from his horse biting her??? ROFL, I've heard it all now!

 

Dude, your wife is either cheating or about to do so. Hire a private detective and get her trailed every time she is out there.

[mental_traveller]

Hi Percy, I see your situation from another angle. I see you are from England, so in Spain you probably have an expat life-style, which is a little different. I am an expat, and in the expat community, there are a lot of parties, and people go out without their spouses a lot , a lot more than what would be considered normal in the UK or USA. So for me it is normal for her to go to Spain alone - my husband and I travel separately a lot because we have our host country, home country, etc, and to go to parties alone - where I live we all do it, as people are in and out of town so much.

I have been married for 10 years and like your wife, I love to flirt even though I am 40, married with children, and happy. The aging process sometimes gets me down, and it is reassuring and fun to have the attention of other men. It does not mean I want to sleep with them. I have to say, if i had a hot young Spanish guy flirting with me, I would probably be pretty thrilled about it and not want to talk about it and analyze it to death with my husband. What I mean is, I can see why she might not want to tell you everything, it would encroach on HER fantasy. I would not assume that she has immediately leapt into the sack with him.

Hope my perspective helps...

 

This is how affairs start. Someone thinking that a bit of "harmless flirting" with an attractive person is ok. But nature has a way of making that harmless flirting turn into an eventual kiss, then more, until you have sex. Then it's too late and in most cases will become a full-blown affair, or a habit of having one-night stands.

[mental_traveller]

Well, I think I have got to the truth, although it was very difficult for both of us to get there. No doubt without the courage given to me by some of your comments, I wouldn't have persevered, so I am grateful for that.

 

Clearly, my worries have been justified. Turns out my W has been harbouring a major "teenage" crush on this guy for a while, since the time of the first party. They have not met very often and there has been one drunken kiss, on one occasion (the first party); that time, my W drew the line at anything more, on our doorstep. Since then, he has been reluctant to get close to her, which has I think resulted in the crush increasing in intensity. The trip to see the horse was an effort on his side to show her that they could be alone together without things getting out of hand - I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but it seems that he is trying hard not to get too involved.

 

I can forgive her the crush, no problem at all - I understand how excited and flattered by his attention she must have been. I am deeply thankful that there has been no physical affair, although maybe if there had, it might have made it easier for her to get over him.

 

What has really hurt me is that it was so difficult to get to the truth, but fortunately I had become so certain something wasn't right that I had the courage to press to the end. I should certainly have picked up on this sooner.

 

Now begins the next phase.

 

So, your wife lied to you, and deliberately tried to make a fool of you by saying it was "silly fantasies" you were having when you were suspicious. Now, after you question her (on our recommendation), she admits that she was unfaithful and cheated with this guy.

 

She has proven to be able to lie to your face once, and to be capable of cheating. What makes you think you've got the whole truth now? Of course she isn't going to admit to screwing this guy. She'll say it was just a kiss, so you forgive her (which you are a fool to do) and move on. But the odds are that it was a lot more than a kiss. If I were you, I'd get tested for STDs and never let your wife go to Spain without being in your presence at all times.

[Percy]

Much of this is reliant on the type of person you are and what your end goal is. If you want to save the marriage, it's probably best to not know all the details (not graphic). In knowing all the details, you will find it more difficult to forgive, nvm forget. On the other hand, in not knowing the details, you also leave yourself wide open to get bent over, one more time.

 

One word of warning. Someone who needs constant ego-stroking rarely stops needing it...

 

I do want to save the marriage, desparately so. This is going to be difficult, because I know what kind of reaction I'm likely to get from some on this forum, but here I go.

 

When I did finally manage to get the truth (and I do believe that I'm there, now), I actually felt a massive sense of relief. Relief mainly that my worrying was not just paranoia, but also because I am certain that the OM has no interest in a relationship - a drunken kiss, maybe more, at and after a party, sure, but he has too much to lose - he has a longterm girlfriend and there's another reason (which I can't explain at the risk of getting too specific) which makes me certain of that. He doesn't speak a lot of English, and I am pretty certain that there has been no email or mobile communication between them.

 

I am sure that what I am dealing with here is a girlish, teenage infatuation, a crush, which started out the night of the party and has been unrequited since then. The reason it's been so difficult to get to the truth is simply is that it sounds so foolish, so pathetic; my wife, by the way is menopausal, and there's much I need to research on female midlife crisis, I think.

 

But I am very upset about two things. Firstly, it cuts me up to think that she has been wrestling with this obsession for almost a year and has managed to hide it from me. I'm devastated to think that she has been struggling with this alone without even sharing it with any girlfriends.

 

Secondly, I am very upset that she lied to me so determinedly and so long even after I started to get concerned. That is way out of character and I think that it is just because it sounds so silly, so girlish, that she was just too embarrassed to admit it. A simple one night stand, maybe even a conventional affair, might have been easier to admit.

 

So what have I done? I have told her that I forgive her, absolutely, provided that I now have the entire story. It is almost 25 years to the day since we got engaged, and I have bought her another ring. And I called the OM and told him that I was aware that there had been an attraction between them and he'd better make sure that it never happened again. I told my wife that I had made that call. I am confident that the OM will steer well clear.

 

But the infatuation still remains, no question. Trialbyfire, I want to forgive and I can forgive. Forgetting - never.

 

That's it, soul bared. Go easy guys, please ...

[Reckless]

I'm not sure why you are expecting to be blasted here.. you have managed to keep your marriage going for 25 years which is commendable, you are doing your best to understand and deal with a crisis now. You clearly love your wife. Kudos.

 

I was however wondering where you wife is now.. is she going to keep emotional/physical distance from the object of her affections? Is she personally going to try to break the obessions she has been harbouring?

 

Have you talked about ways to overcome the hurt and damage this has caused? Maybe close a possible emotional distance that could have fed the fires as it were? Discussed boundaries (especially in the Spanish ex-pat social scene/community)?

 

As a woman of maturing (eeek) years I can tell you that I have been forced to an understanding that being sexually attractive cannot be the sole measure of my worth. Partners can help but that's each persons personal journey. Your wife did not share her obession because obessions are by their very nature, deeply personal. Once shared they tend to dissipate. Obessions are a crutch, a distraction that helps us avoid more painful issues.

 

While it is very important to stay attractive and remaining a sexual creature, women that measure their worth by the men they can attract find growing older particularly challenging and are prone to this type of affair; those are the women who will be making doe eye at the doctor on their deathbed.

 

Your wife must find her way through a maze of emotions. You have to find your way to forgiving and understanding her.

 

I hope you both find your way.

 

R

[Trialbyfire]

I do want to save the marriage, desparately so. This is going to be difficult, because I know what kind of reaction I'm likely to get from some on this forum, but here I go.

 

When I did finally manage to get the truth (and I do believe that I'm there, now), I actually felt a massive sense of relief. Relief mainly that my worrying was not just paranoia, but also because I am certain that the OM has no interest in a relationship - a drunken kiss, maybe more, at and after a party, sure, but he has too much to lose - he has a longterm girlfriend and there's another reason (which I can't explain at the risk of getting too specific) which makes me certain of that. He doesn't speak a lot of English, and I am pretty certain that there has been no email or mobile communication between them.

 

I am sure that what I am dealing with here is a girlish, teenage infatuation, a crush, which started out the night of the party and has been unrequited since then. The reason it's been so difficult to get to the truth is simply is that it sounds so foolish, so pathetic; my wife, by the way is menopausal, and there's much I need to research on female midlife crisis, I think.

 

But I am very upset about two things. Firstly, it cuts me up to think that she has been wrestling with this obsession for almost a year and has managed to hide it from me. I'm devastated to think that she has been struggling with this alone without even sharing it with any girlfriends.

 

Secondly, I am very upset that she lied to me so determinedly and so long even after I started to get concerned. That is way out of character and I think that it is just because it sounds so silly, so girlish, that she was just too embarrassed to admit it. A simple one night stand, maybe even a conventional affair, might have been easier to admit.

 

So what have I done? I have told her that I forgive her, absolutely, provided that I now have the entire story. It is almost 25 years to the day since we got engaged, and I have bought her another ring. And I called the OM and told him that I was aware that there had been an attraction between them and he'd better make sure that it never happened again. I told my wife that I had made that call. I am confident that the OM will steer well clear.

 

But the infatuation still remains, no question. Trialbyfire, I want to forgive and I can forgive. Forgetting - never.

 

That's it, soul bared. Go easy guys, please ...

Sorry, I can't remember if the two of you are going to marriage counseling. If not, please go. I would also recommend individual counseling. Counseling shouldn't be taken as the cure-all. If properly used with the right counselors, you will acquire the tools for more healthy patterns of behaviour.

 

She's going through some serious hormonal changes in her body which are probably affecting her common sense and ability to logically judge healthy from unhealthy conditions. A little third party perspective from a counselor might help her get over this damaging need for affirmation of attractiveness. It's one thing to want the odd affirmation and another to obsess about someone who's not your partner. She's ripe for a physical affair Percy. If not with the Spaniard, it will be with the next guy unless she can get help and make a conscious effort to reinvest in your marriage.

[Percy]

I'm not sure why you are expecting to be blasted here.. you have managed to keep your marriage going for 25 years which is commendable, you are doing your best to understand and deal with a crisis now. You clearly love your wife. Kudos.

 

I was however wondering where you wife is now.. is she going to keep emotional/physical distance from the object of her affections? Is she personally going to try to break the obessions she has been harbouring?

 

Have you talked about ways to overcome the hurt and damage this has caused? Maybe close a possible emotional distance that could have fed the fires as it were? Discussed boundaries (especially in the Spanish ex-pat social scene/community)?

 

As a woman of maturing (eeek) years I can tell you that I have been forced to an understanding that being sexually attractive cannot be the sole measure of my worth. Partners can help but that's each persons personal journey. Your wife did not share her obession because obessions are by their very nature, deeply personal. Once shared they tend to dissipate. Obessions are a crutch, a distraction that helps us avoid more painful issues.

 

While it is very important to stay attractive and remaining a sexual creature, women that measure their worth by the men they can attract find growing older particularly challenging and are prone to this type of affair; those are the women who will be making doe eye at the doctor on their deathbed.

 

Your wife must find her way through a maze of emotions. You have to find your way to forgiving and understanding her.

 

I hope you both find your way.

 

R

This is so very thoughtful, thank you so much. My wife is leading her busy life with me at home; as far as Spain is concerned, one of the things that convinced me that we had a problem was her deep gloom on returning home together last time; she accepts that at least part of that is to do with her infatuation, the other part being that it is a holiday home and her responsibilities there are much less. To be honest, getting to the admission a couple of nights ago was so stressful, we haven't really been able to go back over things again. She wishes that I hadn't called the OM and will I think find it incredibly difficult coming into contact with him again. We will need to talk; in fact I found a brilliant article on the subject which I hope we can read together http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1264/is_n5_v23/ai_12539113

 

But you are right, aging is a crucial factor here; the menopause arrived early and suddenly. I do hope you are right that now her obsession is being shared, it will dissipate. Know any good books on the midlife crisis in women? They all seem to be about men!

[Percy]

Sorry, I can't remember if the two of you are going to marriage counseling. If not, please go. I would also recommend individual counseling. Counseling shouldn't be taken as the cure-all. If properly used with the right counselors, you will acquire the tools for more healthy patterns of behaviour.

 

She's going through some serious hormonal changes in her body which are probably affecting her common sense and ability to logically judge healthy from unhealthy conditions. A little third party perspective from a counselor might help her get over this damaging need for affirmation of attractiveness. It's one thing to want the odd affirmation and another to obsess about someone who's not your partner. She's ripe for a physical affair Percy. If not with the Spaniard, it will be with the next guy unless she can get help and make a conscious effort to reinvest in your marriage.

 

We aren't going to marriage counselling - at this stage, I would find it very difficult to recognise the possibility that our marriage might have serious problems. So I guess I am in denial. I have booked an appointment with an individual counsellor because I feel the need to talk about it. What you say in your last paragraph has really made me think. Thanks

[Percy]

Just in case anyone recognises what is going on here, I have found an enormous amount of help on the midlifecrisisforum website. It is just astonishing how many people seem to have almost identical stories and they are presented also from the feminine side. If this seems relevant to you, I highly recommend it.