JamesM Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 Trial, I can hear that you have never experienced either in yourself or your partner the difficulties of a low libido. It is not as simple as it sounds. Trying before buying is no prediction of future returns. I can say that many times throughout the years especially in the early years, there have been many satisfying times. What changed things? According to her, she simply lost interest. But why cannot she try to regain interest especially since she has admitted that yes, sex DOES add something to our marriage? It is expected that the sex life will flow and ebb. But what is not expected is that one partner no longer cares enough to discover why it has diminished. THAT is what is frustrating. If we could work together for a solution, then there would not be the frustration. But when only I seem to "need" sex, then that is when closed doors bring anger and depression. Walking will not solve anything...it just allows someone to evade the issue. As the one who lacked sex, I would be explaining why I left. As the one who was divorced, she would be able to play the victim and say it had nothing to do with her or love, but it was all about me not getting enough sex. That never makes good press. If it was about emotional connection which resulted in a low libido, then I am willing to guess that it would be easier. If their were no children to face at some point ("Daddy left Mommy because she no longer liked sex." They would resent their selfish father..and that may be appropriate.), then maybe it would be easier. But for many of us, it IS much more complicated. Even as an adult, I would find it selfish of my father or mother if they divorced simply because there was no sex. Is that all the family was? Is that all the marriage was? Are the children worthless in the eyes of their parents? And the answer is of course not. Personally, as I have said...it is not simply the lack of sex...that is bad enough. What is worse is that it is the lack of sex with my own WIFE. What kind of man am I if I cannot even turn on the passion of my wife for me? What is wrong with me...is it my looks? Is it something I have done? Is it my breath? And so it goes. And then the question becomes...could another man be better at pleasing her? Does her coworker bring out the passion in her? Does she fantasize about other men? Is she telling me the truth when she says, "It is not you. I still love you?" And that is where the lack of sex becomes complicated. Simply having an open marriage will not solve the problem. If anything, it will make it worse. Then we go back again to the same old "it is all about sex." What is sex in a marriage? I know I cannot explain this as well as LadyJane. She has done it many times from a woman's POV.. For a man...at least for me, it is an expression of love, a reassurance that I am HER man, an affirmation of my manhood in general, and the knowledge that she loves me enough to surrender herself to me. It has everything to do with the result but yet it has nothing to do with it. That is why pity sex is okay but never fulfilling. That is why she can give in once in awhile yet never understand that she has only physically satisfied me Inwardly I am still uncertain and unfulfilled. Sex with a woman is good, but sex with my wife is awesome. So, walk away because there is no sex? Not an alternative unless there is no hope. And when there is no hope, then there must also be strong compelling evidence that shows that this lack of intimacy is worth breaking up the family. Until that day I will seek a solution. When I quit looking, I have already left.
Kislette Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 What is sex in a marriage? I know I cannot explain this as well as LadyJane. She has done it many times from a woman's POV.. For a man...at least for me, it is an expression of love, a reassurance that I am HER man, an affirmation of my manhood in general, and the knowledge that she loves me enough to surrender herself to me. It has everything to do with the result but yet it has nothing to do with it. That is why pity sex is okay but never fulfilling. That is why she can give in once in awhile yet never understand that she has only physically satisfied me Inwardly I am still uncertain and unfulfilled. Sex with a woman is good, but sex with my wife is awesome. One of the problems is that most women don't know that men actually equate sex with love. The cultural stereotype that men always separate the two is false. They may be able to enjoy sex without love but love without sex doesn't make sense to them. In a man's mind if you love someone you automatically want to have sex with them. I'm not saying that they're right, I'm just saying that their motives aren't as suspect as popular culture would have us believe.
Ladyjane14 Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 For a man...at least for me, it is an expression of love, a reassurance that I am HER man, an affirmation of my manhood in general, and the knowledge that she loves me enough to surrender herself to me. It has everything to do with the result but yet it has nothing to do with it. That is why pity sex is okay but never fulfilling. That is why she can give in once in awhile yet never understand that she has only physically satisfied me Inwardly I am still uncertain and unfulfilled. Sex with a woman is good, but sex with my wife is awesome. That's a brilliant explanation, James.... a peek through the male lens. And it's the crux of the whole problem, IMO. Too many people just can't seem to wrap their minds around the idea that their mate's perception is different than their own. They can't see clearly through the opposite sex lens and so don't bother to try stretching their imagination. Hence, these folks, steeped in their own brand of "truth" can't accept on faith that THAT TOO is a version of reality. The view through the male "lens" is just as viable as the view through the female, and vice versa. I know you've told all this to your wife until your face and your balls were blue, but the problem and frustration is that she just can't seem to bring herself to true acceptance of your position as your reality, the one you are LIVING in. It's an "a-ha" moment, where we have to release ALL our previous hypnosis and SEE a world which was invisible to us before. But... as we've often discussed before, I just don't know how to MAKE people see this without invoking marital crisis and risk; putting their feet to the fire as it were. Lord knows, I'm stubborn enough that THAT's what it took for me.
Herzen Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 One of the problems is that most women don't know that men actually equate sex with love. The cultural stereotype that men always separate the two is false. They may be able to enjoy sex without love but love without sex doesn't make sense to them. In a man's mind if you love someone you automatically want to have sex with them. I'm not saying that they're right, I'm just saying that their motives aren't as suspect as popular culture would have us believe. Well said, JamesM. On target.
Kislette Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 Well said, JamesM. On target. That was actually me I understand the male mind in this matter because my husband is also my best friend and my second best friend is a man who likes to share his innermost thoughts and feelings with me.
Trialbyfire Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 This is interesting and high irony, in a very sad way. The advocates of cheating in a marriage saying that sex is love. If so, then why cheat unless you no longer love your spouse or love someone else. Isn't it high time you left?
Moose Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 This is interesting and high irony, in a very sad way. So is this:Once again, so people don't blast me for open marriages, I wouldn't do it myself.Why do you advocate sexual relations outside of marriage if you're not willing to do so yourself?
Trialbyfire Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 So is this:Why do you advocate sexual relations outside of marriage if you're not willing to do so yourself? Because it's a possible solution to people who want to be honest with their spouses and are wired in a different manner. I advocate honesty.
CynicalP Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 JamesM did a fantastic job of relating a man's point of view regarding sex. Far better than I could ever put those thoughts into words. It's also encouraging to read the Ladies receptive responses to his post. To me, it seems our society is very quick to disregard men's wants and needs. Too many time a sexless marriage is thrown back into a man's face with the accusation that the men failed to provide emotional support or not arrousing the woman's libido enough. What is frustrating to me is when you are there for her when she needs emotional support, the cuddling, the hand holding, an inviting kiss, or hug of encouragement, a soothing neck/shoulder rub, etc. and those actions are never enough to illicit an reciprocal response. What's frustration is initiating sex only to get an excuse, flat out rejection, or a never fullfilled promise for a later time or date. You get to a point where the effort just isnt worth the frustration. You know your partner is aware of your frustrations ( you have communicated it to her ) but just doesn't seem to phase her enough to act. As other men pointed out you have a family to maintain so walking usually isnt in the best interests for everyone involved. You can't find another outlet because that is infidelty and you become the villian. So you just grin and bear it the best you can while you sit in bitter silence pretending it doesn't really bother you. I joke with my male friends in similiar situations and we relutently feel we been duped by bait and switch tactics. Before the marriages we all enjoyed healthy passionate sexual relationships with our wives only to find ourselves in sexless marriage after few years of marital bliss. The joke is on us. That is why whenever I get a chance to talk to anyone young man contemptating marriage I tell them in the long run it's just not worth it and your return in investment is horrible. That's how I truely feel regarding marriage.
JamesM Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 This is interesting and high irony, in a very sad way. The advocates of cheating in a marriage saying that sex is love. If so, then why cheat unless you no longer love your spouse or love someone else. Isn't it high time you left? I think you misunderstood me. I do not advocate cheating. Far from it. But I can understand why many men and women do it. While sex with my wife is awesome, the realization that she no longer feels that sex with me is necessary brings many feelings of anger, frustration and sadness. It also damages the "ego" and self-esteem more than can be explained to a woman. It creates an uncertainty regarding my ability to even satisfy a woman...actually, all that matters is that I can no longer satisfy her. (And yes, as LadyJane has said, she knows very well that I am interested in more sex, but what she never has seemed to realize that I miss much more than the climactic release of the act itself.) At some point many men find it "necessary" to find someone else to boost that ego and self-esteem. He feels that maybe if he can at least satisfy himself that he is not the reason for her low libido, then he can handle it better. Unfortunately, this does not occur. Rather he feels even lower knowing that although he may have satisfied another woman physically, he himself still does not have the love and passion of the one woman he cares most about. Now he also carries the guilt of knowing that he betrayed her trust and love EVEN when he feels that she "caused" him to cheat. I believe this is another reason why so many married men here that have affairs (as witnessed on the OW/OM Board) will run back to their wives at the first indication that she is willing to reconcile. For most, no matter how much they care for the OW, she can never measure up to his true love...his wife. And until that connection has been permanently damaged, that bond will remain stronger than a bond with any other woman. While women realize that they have the "Power of Sex" over men, very few realize how much it effects their husband's life.
JamesM Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 I joke with my male friends in similar situations and we reluctantly feel we been duped by bait and switch tactics. Before the marriages we all enjoyed healthy passionate sexual relationships with our wives only to find ourselves in sexless marriage after few years of marital bliss. The joke is on us. That is why whenever I get a chance to talk to anyone young man contemplating marriage I tell them in the long run it's just not worth it and your return in investment is horrible. That's how I truly feel regarding marriage. There seems to be a lot of truth here unfortunately. Many women DO feel that once they have been married awhile and have birthed their children, sex is no longer necessary. And yes, has any man dated a woman with a low libido and knew going into the marriage that she had one? Or is the usual case...she is passionate for dating and early marriage, then she suddenly feels that sex is just that...sex. The question is why. And there are many reasons. Quite often the man has something/a lot to do with it. But many other times, he does not. It comes down to priorities. My wife feels that when she does little things for me, this shows her love for me. But in her mind since sex is not exciting, how can that be a reward of her love...even though she knows in her mind that I feel differently? So, it comes down to...how can I turn HER on? It never is that her low libido has nothing to do with me....no, it always is that her libido has EVERYTHING to do with me.
Herzen Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 I agree. I think it's more likely a lop-sided libido issue in the majority of cases rather than a "true boycott". That said, I do remember one guy posting who hadn't had marital relations in EIGHT YEARS. The alternative though is to introduce the potential for even more devastation and acrimony upon discovery of the infidelity. Divorce isn't easy, but you yourself are divorced, correct? Is your life horrible? Are you in constant misery? And I would argue that a withholding spouse has lost his/her right to the marriage itself rather than his/her right to the truth. Otherwise, the mere circumstances surrounding our lives determine 'who we are' and our choices no longer honor our substance. Nope. But your writing style is distinctive with superior vocabulary, and I believe I can count at least 3 other previous incarnations. If I'm mistaken, do correct me. No corrections needed my perceptive one.
Trialbyfire Posted July 6, 2007 Posted July 6, 2007 I think you misunderstood me. I do not advocate cheating. Far from it. But I can understand why many men and women do it. While sex with my wife is awesome, the realization that she no longer feels that sex with me is necessary brings many feelings of anger, frustration and sadness. It also damages the "ego" and self-esteem more than can be explained to a woman. It creates an uncertainty regarding my ability to even satisfy a woman...actually, all that matters is that I can no longer satisfy her. (And yes, as LadyJane has said, she knows very well that I am interested in more sex, but what she never has seemed to realize that I miss much more than the climactic release of the act itself.) At some point many men find it "necessary" to find someone else to boost that ego and self-esteem. He feels that maybe if he can at least satisfy himself that he is not the reason for her low libido, then he can handle it better. Unfortunately, this does not occur. Rather he feels even lower knowing that although he may have satisfied another woman physically, he himself still does not have the love and passion of the one woman he cares most about. Now he also carries the guilt of knowing that he betrayed her trust and love EVEN when he feels that she "caused" him to cheat. I believe this is another reason why so many married men here that have affairs (as witnessed on the OW/OM Board) will run back to their wives at the first indication that she is willing to reconcile. For most, no matter how much they care for the OW, she can never measure up to his true love...his wife. And until that connection has been permanently damaged, that bond will remain stronger than a bond with any other woman. While women realize that they have the "Power of Sex" over men, very few realize how much it effects their husband's life. It's all tied into self, isn't it James? Can a cheater not work on self, strengthen self and then self-empower honestly, and not at the expense of others? It's not as if I haven't been in a relationship whereby it's on the decline. When this happened, I left, instead of remaining in something that would have eroded into me. At least this way, he was also free to find what he wanted. I'm happy to say that he did because over the years, he continued to contact me as a friend. Btw, this was not my cheating ex-h. I don't have a use for someone as pathetic as that, in my life.
tommyr Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 I'll tell you honestly though... sometimes a woman doesn't reevaluate her mindset until she sees your tail lights in the driveway. Marital crisis can be a powerful motivator if you can tolerate the risk. Irony! A day before LJ's post, I had a fullblown "tail lights in the driveway" event with my wife over sex (or lack thereof). Actually it was mutual (both of us rushing to be first out the driveway) so maybe not exactly like LJ stated but the upshot is we spent the 4th of July apart, each planning our lives after the divorce. I broke down the next day and brought her a $100 vase of flowers, and in the ensuing conversation I think some lightbulbs finally went off in her head. We had been making progress on the sex issue (averaging 3X per month) yet we also keep having frequent 2+ week droughts that drive me insane. Time will tell if this was the Ah-Ha moment of which LJ speaks, but major parts of my message did appear to get through. First, how crazy is it that me wanting sex with my wife should be grounds for divorce? Of all the ridiculous things to end a marriage!! Next, my oft stated goal (1X or 2X per week) is NOT me being a sex crazed maniac, but many research reports (google for "sex marriage times per week") indicate that 1X or 2X per week is in fact considered normal or average (whatever that means) for married couple. Last, my desire for regular sex with wife is because I am totally attracted to her and want to be together physically - she always thought I was just being mean, another ToDo upon her busy day. Will keep you guys posted. While I am totally in love with wife, and am willing to do anything to meet her needs, I am also firmly resolved that if we do not reach a compromise on the sex, that I must leave our 12 year marriage. Although most things in our marriage are fantastic, long term, my kids would be better off not having parents who are resentful (either openly or not) to each other: me for no sex, her for having to constantly think up excuses. Folks, one way or the other, we will get to a mutually agreeable solution on this. I feel bad for other men on here in sexless marriages, but many of those men do not seem to be willing to take the risk / rock the boat a little. My wife now knows that I love her beyond words, yet I will not stay in a marriage with sex only on her low-libido terms.
JamesM Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 It's all tied into self, isn't it James? Can a cheater not work on self, strengthen self and then self-empower honestly, and not at the expense of others? Yes, it is. Cheating is selfish, and withholding sex is selfish. And to make a marriage work, one has to figure a way of being giving yet not doing a the expense of self. Marriage requires one to make sacrifices without sacrificing one's self. And that is where marriage is so simple yet difficult. A woman may not find it easy to understand why a man needs sex for his love in a marriage to be affirmed. This is not about his self esteem in his job or his career or his hobby or even his parenting. This is about his self esteem when it comes to women. And he has only one person he can look to for that...once he is married. A woman when married likes her man to listen to her, cuddle her, and show her that he appreciates the many things SHE does. He does this through spending time with her. He does this by buying her flowers or growing special flowers for her. he does this by saying that he notices her new hair style. A woman looks for certain things in a relationship to fulfill her self. And so does a man. He looks for that affirmation that his wife thinks he is still her man, a man, and worthy as a man. How? When she surrenders herself to him as her man in the way of sexual intimacy. If she refuses, she communicates exactly the opposite of when she gives herself to him. And when he engages in an affair with another woman, he communicates to his wife that she is unacceptable to him for many reasons. Why does an affair hurt a woman if she does not really see the importance of sex in a marriage? If sex is just about the husband "getting off," then why should she care if he cheats? Because sex IS much more than simply getting a physical release. It is the surrendering of two people to each other by way of sex. It is that time when two people who love each other communicate in a special way how much they love each other. SO, withholding sex is cheating...and seeking another woman is cheating. Why do we get married? For companionship and the security of knowing we are loved. Women seek it in one way...men seek in another. When one person decides to be selfish (for example...withholding sex for whatever reason but when he or she CAN have sex...no physical reasons), then it becomes very difficult for the other person to be giving for a great length of time. The selfish choice is exactly that selfish, but yet many times an affair is simply a cry for help or a yell of anger and frustration. (I am aware that there are many men who also simply cheat because they don't value the commitment to one woman. These men get plenty of sexual intimacy at home yet feel that they need affirmation from many women. I am not speaking of this kind of "man.") What? That is immature! Yes, it is selfish and immature. It speaks of someone who has not learned to assertively speak his mind so that action is taken. But guess what? He has done that. And still his partner...who may agree with him...does not see the urgency in what he says. To walk away from a marriage or relationship in many ways is not only selfish, but it is quitting. Many times the solution may be just around the corner. Many times it does take that partner who says, "Ya know, my needs are not being met. I have said what they are, yet he or she continues to be selfish and ignore them. It is up to me to be mature. I need to step back and see what I can do differently to change the situation." This is not easy, or is it always successful. But when there are children involved, then EVERY possible solution must be looked at. Just as there are men and women who successfully resolve their problems after an affair (which does not make any affair okay), so there are many men and women who through the actions of one, resolve the problem of low libido and sexlessness. A couple of years ago, my folks celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary. Has their marriage been perfect without its problems? No. Are they happier today than in the past? Yes. Are the children happy to have their parents together for these more than 50 years? Yes. And that is my motivation as well. As I stated before, where there is hope, there is a possibility for solutions. Having completed almost eighteen years of marriage, I have many years ahead before I may be in their position. Here is something I tell myself. What if I knew that in one year, we would have a great sex life. Could I make it that long? What about two years? And so I go. Am I willing to keep trying to resolve this issue for the sake of our marriage, and more importantly for the sake of our children? My answer is still yes. May that answer change one day? Yes, but until then, I keep seeking and will not run. Walking away from a relationship or a problem is quitting...in my book. Cheating is passively showing anger. Quietly looking for solutions helps but may never find an answer. For most of us what is needed is the "Aha!" moment mentioned by LadyJane. We need to send that wake up call. And this is why most of us in a sexless marriage are on this Board....we are looking for the correct number to call to wake up our sleeping partner..
Mr. Lucky Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 It's not as if I haven't been in a relationship whereby it's on the decline. When this happened, I left, instead of remaining in something that would have eroded into me. When you left, did you also leave behind most of your parental rights with your children? A set of In-laws that had become a second family to you? The financial future and security that you had worked so hard together to build? A house that you had poured your own blood, sweat and spare time into? The structure and fabric of your entire adult life? If it's BF and GF playing house, it's easy to throw your stuff in the back of your car and drive away. But with years of married life with kids and family, it's easy to choose what seems to be the lesser of two evils... Mr. Lucky
Trialbyfire Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 Walking away from a relationship or a problem is quitting...in my book. Cheating is passively showing anger. Quietly looking for solutions helps but may never find an answer. For most of us what is needed is the "Aha!" moment mentioned by LadyJane. We need to send that wake up call. And this is why most of us in a sexless marriage are on this Board....we are looking for the correct number to call to wake up our sleeping partner.. Then take a more assertive role, none of this self-entitlement passive-aggressive crap like cheating. She'll never wake up if she doesn't know what's going on. Then nut up and gamble, man. She has to realize you're serious or you continue to empower her. The risk is worth the reward. It doesn't mean that the reward will be her as a prize. It could also be the prize of regaining self-worth.
Trialbyfire Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 When you left, did you also leave behind most of your parental rights with your children? A set of In-laws that had become a second family to you? The financial future and security that you had worked so hard together to build? A house that you had poured your own blood, sweat and spare time into? The structure and fabric of your entire adult life? If it's BF and GF playing house, it's easy to throw your stuff in the back of your car and drive away. But with years of married life with kids and family, it's easy to choose what seems to be the lesser of two evils... Mr. Lucky Since when do you cease to be a parent when you cease to be in a marriage? Unless you use your children as a battlefield, they will be fine, maybe even better than fine. Don't fool yourself in believing that a dysfunctional marriage is good for them. Money can be made. Also, do you honestly value money over happiness and a sense of self-worth? Quality of life...
Mr. Lucky Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 Since when do you cease to be a parent when you cease to be in a marriage? That you would trivialize this issue tells me that you never experienced first-hand the pain involved. I guarantee you that, even if they are not sleeping in the same bed with their wives, sleeping under the same roof as their children is what is keeping these posters in sexless marriages... Mr. Lucky
Trialbyfire Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 That you would trivialize this issue tells me that you never experienced first-hand the pain involved. I guarantee you that, even if they are not sleeping in the same bed with their wives, sleeping under the same roof as their children is what is keeping these posters in sexless marriages... Mr. Lucky My main concern through all this is "DON'T CHEAT". Beyond that, the rest is their choice. If you read backwards, you would know that. You are correct. I've never experienced a sexless marriage. What I have experienced is relationship deterioration and also being cheated on within a marriage. I've also experienced divorce, which has made me incredibly happy, with the direct contrast of a dysfunctional marriage versus glorious personal freedom. Have you or any of these men ever been divorced?
JamesM Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 Then take a more assertive role, none of this self-entitlement passive-aggressive crap like cheating. She'll never wake up if she doesn't know what's going on. Then nut up and gamble, man. She has to realize you're serious or you continue to empower her. The risk is worth the reward. It doesn't mean that the reward will be her as a prize. It could also be the prize of regaining self-worth. I have taken a more assertive role. Through my research I have found a new medicine for her which restored some of her interest in sex. She had a lot of muscle aches, depression, and more. A new thyroid medicine a year ago changed most of that. She now does more than she used to do. And a year ago I had "the talk" with her. I told her exactly my feelings regarding our lack of sex. For four and a half months, things changed completely. We did have sex at least once a week. Then almost a year ago, it changed back to now maybe twice a month. What changed? I don't know. She says I haven't. She lost interest in sex. And boy, has that hurt. But this has actually given me hope since one solution did bring results...others may, too. So, Woman, this man has gambled and "nutted" up. And yes, she knew at that time I was serious. The 2 am talk brought a new woman to my house the next door. She said be patient with her..she was going to change. And she did. But as many ultimatums do, it brought temporary change. Now I am looking for the change that will bring more permanent. We have a host of issues that can be the basis for the low libido...so there are a number of stones to turn over. Should I do another "nut up and gamble" talk? (That is a rhetorical question...no need to answer). That is what I ask myself, but the fact remains that this will bring another ultimatum type talk and temporary change. Have I lost my self-worth? Not at all. I have lost weight this year...twenty pounds. I have done many things that have satisfied me and fulfilled. I can say that overall I am happier now than I was a year ago...even when I was having more sex. So, why do I talk about self-esteem? Because a man's self-esteem AS IT RELATES TO WOMEN is effected. That is all. And only she can fulfill that...because I gave her that "power" when I said "I do" so many short years ago.
lonelybird Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 Should I do another "nut up and gamble" talk? (That is a rhetorical question...no need to answer). That is what I ask myself, but the fact remains that this will bring another ultimatum type talk and temporary change. . Yes, ultimatum only bring temporary change, AND it is manipulating as well.
Mr. Lucky Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 Have you or any of these men ever been divorced? I am divorced and very happily remarried... Mr. Lucky
Trialbyfire Posted July 7, 2007 Posted July 7, 2007 I am divorced and very happily remarried... Mr. Lucky Why aren't you still in your original marriage?
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