Constant Refusal equal to cheating

[lonelybird]

I could never understand why fellow Christians act this way. I've been a Christian since age 4. God wants us to have a healthy sexual relationship with our spouses. He created us with the ability to enjoy sex and that level of intimacy. How else would we know what heaven is going to be like?

Moose, I agree with you. Do your wife talk to Lord very often? If she talk to Lord, Lord must tell her what she should do. Communication wasn't flowing between Lord and she; between you and she?

[Herzen]

RP, Your whole post is depressing. To know what this world has come to, and where's it's headed.My, "need, should, must", implications are easy to understand. It's called, "MORAL STANDARDS". It really doesn't have a lick to do with religion RP. 50 years ago, you'd never hear, "I'd get a lover", or "I'd remain married and find a lover.", or anything of the like. People, (men AND women alike), used to have good moral values. That's all gone now.

 

As far as living without romance or sex with ease.......yeah.....what EVER!

 

My suspicion is that 50-100 years ago more lip service was paid to "moral values." People often acted in conflict with their stated "moral standards."

 

Now, many people no longer pretend to be one way and act in another fashion.

 

In my view, a spousal strike--the chronic withholding of sex and affection--can be as bad, if not worse, as infidelity especially when minor children are present.

 

I view things pragmatically,and my goal is to keep mom and dad reasonably together while the kids are still young.Therefore, if my spouse stopped having sex with me because she found sex or sex with me repugnant rather than deserting her and my children, I'd find a lover outside of marriage.That way, I stop resenting her because my affectional needs are being met and I'm more likely to remain a parent at home.

 

Everyone is taken care of: my spouse is off the hook over sex, I'm getting laid and the family unit carries on. Is that a perfect arrangement? Of course not. It's just life.

[Trialbyfire]

In reality, nothing condones cheating. Not only is it the lowest form of passive-aggressive retaliation, it's also exposing your partner to the possibility of disease.

 

Unless the partners can come to an agreement with an open marriage, the cheater's argument is moot. Address the underlying issues, rather than layering wrong over wrong, risking innocent parties to STDs and from the cheaters perspective, risking a war torn family with the strong possibility of financial analization affected by the betrayed spouse.

[Moose]

How do you know that this is what God wants?

Genesis 2:24:

For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

 

Genesis 4:1:

Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the Lord I have brought forth a man."

No, the main benefit of marriage is to provide a (relatively) safe and secure environment to raise our offspring.

That's VERY debatable.

Marriage is the most effective way that the human race has come up with to propagate the species.

Funny, I thought pre-maritial sex, promiscuity, and debauchery were the most effective ways.....

Evolution at work?

AH HA! That's where you're getting all of these ideas.

or are we making a huge mistake in putting so many expectations on what marriage should be like?

In my opinion, God created marriage. It's HIS expectations we should pay attention to. And we have no place to add or take away from it.

Has your wife been a Christian all her life, or did she become one around the time you married?

Yes, she has. And she was raised in a very sheltered home. I met her while we were both away from God, and partaking in worldly pleasures. We dated off and on for a couple years before we married. Back then, we had no problems in the bedroom.......

Do you think your wife is angry at you and feels unable to express that anger?

Not sure on that one. I know she does have a problem expressing herself, (to me). I used to be a really heavy drinker, I stopped doing that and have been flying relatively straight for the past 5 years. I think that she's waiting for the other shoe to drop, (so to speak), and she's not sure what to do.......maybe?

Do you think she feels comfortable disagreeing with you, or saying that she is right about something and you are wrong?

Not at all. She's a major control freak. Now that I've got the reigns back in my own hands, I don't think she can handle me, having a good grip on myself...hope that makes sense. Sex is about the only thing she has control of right now, and that's probably the crux of it all....

Living in an unhappy marriage is one of the worst spells that someone can put on you.

How does a, "spell" work into one's personal decision? If a person is in an unhappy marriage, it's by choice.....not because someone, "tricked" you into it.

Staying for the sake of the children may be safe and correct in your book of (rigid) moral standards, but it makes a very sad life.

I'm staying First because God says to. I'm staying Second because I'm in love with my wife. That's where it stops. I asked earlier, "what about the children" because divorce is very detrimental to them, no matter what age, and I wanted to see what TBF had to say about it. I can tell that most everyone who's posted don't really think or care about that. It's all about, "Me, Me, Me".....

If you don't mind my asking, what actions would justify (in your mind) leaving your marriage? Your wife's infidelity? Her physical abandonment of your home? Abuse of you or your kids?

I had to think about this one. I would have to say immoral activity. That doesn't include infidelity, and you might be asking yourself why. Infidelity could be a one night stand and mean nothing to her, and I would have to examine myself to see if I had anything to do with driving her into it. BUT, if she had an affair, is having a sexual relationship, or an emotional relationship with another man.....that would be cause for leaving.

Did you tell your wife how you feel? Do you communicate often?

Oh yes. And it's insanity. Literally. It's the same problem, I try the same things, and it's the same results. I keep telling myself to have patience.....

Do your wife talk to Lord very often? If she talk to Lord, Lord must tell her what she should do. Communication wasn't flowing between Lord and she; between you and she?

She's well aware of what she needs and should do. She just doesn't......I still subscribe to the, "control" issue...

[StayClose]

Let's take a broader definition of the work "cheat." It means to use serruptitious means take something you're not entitled to, such as by cheating in a card game.

 

When applies to marital fedelity, when soemone promises to give their sexual affection exclusively to one person, and they give it to someone else, that is cheating.

 

Now lets go back to a business transaction. If you hire a roofer to replace the roof on your house, and he does a crappy job and it leaks the first time it rains, then he cheated you. OTOH, if he replaces your roof, and you refuse to pay him, then you are cheating him. The both parties in the agreement have responsibilies to live up to.

 

Now back to marriage, when you get married, you agree to be sexually exlusive in exchange for the other person to sexually available. Either party who breaks this agreement can be said to be cheating.

 

Another thought... If someone's spouse refuses to have sex at all, you could argue that the cheating spouse isn't really cheating because the spouse DOESN'T WANT the sexual attention that the OW/OM is getting. Your spouse may have first dibs on your sexual attention, but if the spouse doesn't want it is it really cheating to spend your sexual attention eslewhere?

 

If you agree to sell your car to a friend once you buy a new one, and when you finally buy a new car and are ready to sell the old one, and the friend no longer wants the car, can oject to you selling the car to someone else?

[Trialbyfire]

To play devil's advocate, could someone please tell me where in the marriage vows that you state during the ceremony you agree to always have sex with your partner? There are clauses regarding fidelity though.

 

This is a blanket question from a legal perspective, not religious requirements.

[Moose]

Let's take a broader definition of the work "cheat." It means to use serruptitious means take something you're not entitled to, such as by cheating in a card game.

 

When applies to marital fedelity, when soemone promises to give their sexual affection exclusively to one person, and they give it to someone else, that is cheating.

 

Now lets go back to a business transaction. If you hire a roofer to replace the roof on your house, and he does a crappy job and it leaks the first time it rains, then he cheated you. OTOH, if he replaces your roof, and you refuse to pay him, then you are cheating him. The both parties in the agreement have responsibilies to live up to.

 

Now back to marriage, when you get married, you agree to be sexually exlusive in exchange for the other person to sexually available. Either party who breaks this agreement can be said to be cheating.

 

Another thought... If someone's spouse refuses to have sex at all, you could argue that the cheating spouse isn't really cheating because the spouse DOESN'T WANT the sexual attention that the OW/OM is getting. Your spouse may have first dibs on your sexual attention, but if the spouse doesn't want it is it really cheating to spend your sexual attention eslewhere?

 

If you agree to sell your car to a friend once you buy a new one, and when you finally buy a new car and are ready to sell the old one, and the friend no longer wants the car, can oject to you selling the car to someone else?

Every scenario you've just used is based on a contractual agreement. (If you, then I)

 

Marriage is a covenant. (I will, I will)

 

There's a big diff.....

[directx]

The only thing equal to cheating is cheating (with sex).

 

If my SO refuses sex with no good reason, I'll tell her straight up I'll be going out to get some.

[PandorasBox]

The only thing equal to cheating is cheating (with sex).

 

If my SO refuses sex with no good reason, I'll tell her straight up I'll be going out to get some.

 

 

Just out of curiosty, if you make it clear you'll be heading out to get some, and lets say she doesn't want you to that, (even though shes been witholding), if she were to give you sex after you told her that, would that be ok or do you feel she would be doing it out of obligation to you telling her you'll be heading out to get some?

 

I have heard of some who would rather get obligation sex than no sex at all. I would think one would be about as worse as the other but thats just me.

[directx]

Just out of curiosty, if you make it clear you'll be heading out to get some, and lets say she doesn't want you to that, (even though shes been witholding), if she were to give you sex after you told her that, would that be ok or do you feel she would be doing it out of obligation to you telling her you'll be heading out to get some?

 

I have heard of some who would rather get obligation sex than no sex at all. I would think one would be about as worse as the other but thats just me.

 

Yeah, I probably don't have the guts to do what I said, but I would definitly say it in the hopes it wakes her up a little bit.

In reality when you think about it, if something like this is happening, there is something else going on.

I'd probably go out and see a movie or go shopping without telling her just so she can actually experience the effect of her inaction.

 

But I can't believe people that like sex suddenly stop for no reason other than its not their thing anymore.

[csaswift]

Moose I dont want to sound rude by any means, but are you any good at sex, its not just about you when it comes to sex, have you really satisfied her or have you never asked or is she not truthful, I have come to realise that over a number of years i have been turned off and most times eventually did it because i knew he needed it, but it did nothing for me, i got nothing out of it because he just isnt good at it, i have never told him i would never like to hurt his feelings in that way, but a rampant rabbit can do a better job by far, i stll love my H and I always said if he became impotent i would not love him any the less, but in early years this was a statement he could never understand, well he does now.

[Moose]

Moose I dont want to sound rude by any means, but are you any good at sex

I can't answer that for myself. I can say that I've never had any complaints, in fact, most of the women I've been with in that way, "heard it from a friend who".......if you get that meaning.....

[Mustang Sally]

I gotta say.

 

It is highly unlikely that any woman is going to actually tell you if you are terrible in bed. Doubt that any man would tell a woman that she was terrible in bed also. Unless they (man or woman) are just a nasty, mailcious person.

[Cobra_X30]

To play devil's advocate, could someone please tell me where in the marriage vows that you state during the ceremony you agree to always have sex with your partner? There are clauses regarding fidelity though.

 

This is a blanket question from a legal perspective, not religious requirements.

 

"To HAVE and to hold"

 

wedding vows are subject to legal to legal interpretation. Vows not valid in CA, NY or NH. LOL

[EnigmaXOXO]

I can absolutely understand why someone would contemplate exiting a marriage for lack of and/or infrequency of sex. I suppose “sex” becomes a big deal, or the very center of one’s existence, if they’re not getting any ... or near as much as they’d like.

 

But I also have to wonder, if they suddenly found themselves single again, could one really expect to get “sex” more than once a month anyway, if out there prowling the meat markets searching for qualified participants given all the competition that’s out there? It can be just as much work (more so for men than women) ... unless you paid for it, of course.

 

I think when you’ve been married for years and years, it’s easy to forget that when you were young and single, the free putang wasn’t exactly falling into your lap. You still had to work for it one way or the other. There are plenty of posts here from single guys who seem just as frustrated as the married guys.

 

I don’t know. I guess it’s different if there’s a whole lot more going wrong in your marriage than just getting a blow job or sex only once or twice a month. I can absolutely understand, having been there myself, why it would be a better proposition to be alone and single for the rest of your life than remain one more day in the situation you’re in. BUT to risk throwing away your family and everything you took a lifetime to build for a 15 minute blow job seems like a really high price to pay for a few moments in Big “O” Heaven. And I have to wonder, once it was all over and done with, and you’re looking back on all you’ve lost in retrospect, would it have really been worth it?

[StayClose]

But I also have to wonder, if they suddenly found themselves single again, could one really expect to get “sex” more than once a month anyway, if out there prowling the meat markets searching for qualified participants given all the competition that’s out there? It can be just as much work (more so for men than women) ... unless you paid for it, of course.

 

I think when you’ve been married for years and years, it’s easy to forget that when you were young and single, the free putang wasn’t exactly falling into your lap. You still had to work for it one way or the other. There are plenty of posts here from single guys who seem just as frustrated as the married guys.

 

Excellent point. When I was single, I certainly didn't have sex every month. The sexless periods lasted longer. But when I was sexually active, it was much better, due of course the excitment of being with a new person.

 

Here's an interesting question: Which is better: Have boring sex 12 times over one year at one month intervals, of have great sex 12 times in a single month, and be celebate the other 11 months? That's what my single life was like.

 

I'll tell you the difference between married & single: when your single and someone you're interested has no interest in you sexually, you are free to look elsewhere, and maybe you'll find it. When you're married and your spouse has no interest, you're essentially banned from sex.

 

I don’t know. I guess it’s different if there’s a whole lot more going wrong in your marriage than just getting a blow job or sex only once or twice a month. I can absolutely understand, having been there myself, why it would be a better proposition to be alone and single for the rest of your life than remain one more day in the situation you’re in. BUT to risk throwing away your family and everything you took a lifetime to build for a 15 minute blow job seems like a really high price to pay for a few moments in Big “O” Heaven. And I have to wonder, once it was all over and done with, and you’re looking back on all you’ve lost in retrospect, would it have really been worth it?

 

And that's why a lot of people stay married. What we seek is a balanced life, and for many of us, a balanced life includes decent sex with an adequite frequency. Why should that not be available?

[Trialbyfire]

"To HAVE and to hold"

 

wedding vows are subject to legal to legal interpretation. Vows not valid in CA, NY or NH. LOL

That is subject to interpretation. "To have and to hold" may just mean physical possession of each other. It doesn't make direct reference to a requirement for the marital bed or penetration.

 

Apparently vows are not valid anywhere...if you look at the amount of cheating going on...

[EnigmaXOXO]

Here's an interesting question: Which is better: Have boring sex 12 times over one year at one month intervals, of have great sex 12 times in a single month, and be celebate the other 11 months?

 

Thought about it long and hard. Yeah, lust is a real rush, but that chemical high doesn’t last forever. I don’t care who you’re with. And that 11 months in between can be real difficult if you’re not getting any human “touch” at all. You see ... it was never really the “sex” I missed, but rather affection and the deeper intimacy that comes from really bonding with someone on an emotional level.

 

I’ll take sex with same person year after year after year (even if only once a month) if all the love, affection, and mutual appreciation for one another is still there. It just feels more fulfilling and gratifying to me. Then again, if everything else in the relationship is going well, than it really wouldn’t be an issue. Unless there were some underlying medical problems (such a depression or stress) that weren’t being addressed.

 

I think if I felt my partner pulling away from me, I’d have to step back and really try to examine what else was going on in our relationship. What’s causing the distancing? ... Are the two of us as affectionate with one another as we use to be? ... Have the resentments between us escalated to a point where it’s difficult to connect physically with each other without it feeling awkward or uncomfortable?

 

I don’t think our “married” game should be any different than our “single” game. The same strategies you would use to attract the interest of single partners can also be used to get your current relationship back on track. Unless you’re both so out of touch and rusty at it, that you’ve forgotten how.

 

Then again, if you’re just the type of person who gets bored easily and prefers the excitement of lust to anything more deeper or substantial ... OR if you’re relationship has reached the point of “no return” where you are literally repulsed at the idea of being intimate with your partner ... then you ARE better off getting out and remaining single.

 

Sometimes it takes being in a relationship before you realize you’re just not cut out for one. And sometimes it takes being single again before you really begin to appreciate what you use to have.

[Storyrider]

Moose, I have been thinking about this a lot lately in my own marriage, and I would strongly suggest that your wife has long-term, deep seated anger at you that she has not resolved, and which she may not know how to resolve.

 

When she gets physically close to you it brings this anger to the surface, and not only does she feel turned off by your closeness, she feels terribly guilty about the negative thoughts and anger, making it almost impossible for her to enjoy the sex or even really focus on pleasure for herself or you.

 

That is my theory about why she's avoiding sex, but I may be projecting my own situation onto yours. It is just that there quite a few similarities.

[Trialbyfire]

There is one more possibility. Is birth control a religious concern? If so, perhaps she doesn't want another child.

[Hyperpen12000]

I have a good friend who has a wife who has continually refused him sexually. He tried to talk with her starting out understanding and over a few years it progressed to more fighting. He said that she has a hard time getting the idea that sex is somehow dirty out of her mind. She and he both have grown up evangelical Christians and she refuses to go to counseling about this with or without him. He and I have separately come to the conclusion that refusal for no good reason on a continuous basis should be considered the same as cheating as in a legal sense it denies due affection to the person to whom it is owed in the relationship. I have done some reading about marital relationships and even Dr. Laura Schlessinger seems to lean that way to my suprise. I know she is controversial and many of you may or may not agree with her and I have my issues with her on a few things myself. What do you all say?

 

Well if he's a religious guy and he believes in the values of intimacy in a marriage, then she's committing sin. Like it or not, sex is a big part of a healthy marriage (relationship). If you don't want to have relations with your spouse, you probably shouldn''t have gotten married.

 

Society wants us to believe that sex should not make you end a long time relationship. I beg to differ. Deprivation of either Physical or mental affection is a good reason to end a relationship (unless your partner enters the relationship practicing celibacy). It's been desensitized for a women to end a relationship/marriage due to lack of intimacy but a social stigma for men. Your friend needs to sit down and talk to his wife. If he's not getting what he needs physically, He should end it. If he's accepting of the lack of sex then, hey!

 

I don't think Constant Refusal is equal to cheating.

[lonelybird]

i stll love my H and I always said if he became impotent i would not love him any the less, .

this kind of negative statement better not say, words can become reality.

 

If couples learn to speak more positive to their spouse, marriage would be sweet.

 

I still think wife hold back sex because of resentment, bad communication, fear of rejection after communicating true feeling....

 

Bible teach "husband and wife should be submitted to each other", that means husband should be submitted to wife as well

[RecordProducer]

God created marriage. It's HIS expectations we should pay attention to.

Moose, without me commenting everything you said, because we apparently agree to disagree about everything, I see that you have strongly determined moral constraints (I'd rather call them constraints than standards, because they clearly limit your choices in life). You have decided to follow God's rules and please God... but what about you? Are you happy?

To play devil's advocate, could someone please tell me where in the marriage vows that you state during the ceremony you agree to always have sex with your partner? There are clauses regarding fidelity though.

 

This is a blanket question from a legal perspective, not religious requirements.

It's not about "always" having sex. We're discussing marriages where sex happens anywhere from once a year to once-twice a month) and the partner who dictates this infrequency is basically reluctant to make love, unsexy, and non-affectionate. The other partner is constantly craving sex and going out of their way to make it happen.

 

While I do think that people who deprive their spouses from sex for years DO deserve to be cheated on (it's not cheating if somebody is faithful to their extra-mariatl lover ), I don't think that the deprived party deserves to become a cheater and not be able to freely enjoy love and sex.

 

Non-sexual people who have low libidos should connect and practice their sexless lifestyles. Or they could make love once a month and be content with that. Those who are horny and passionate should be with similar partners. Unfortunately, many people discover that their partners are not what they thought they were, only after they get married or much later. When all the excuses wear out (kids, stress, time, work, problems, medical issues), one partner finds him/herself trapped in a loveless marriage. To me no sex equals no love.

 

Society wants us to believe that sex should not make you end a long time relationship. I beg to differ. Deprivation of either physical or mental affection is a good reason to end a relationship

And I agree with you.

[JamesM]

As a man who also lives in a near sexless marriage, I disagree with most here.

 

I agree with the poster who talked about the roofer. When I said that I will be faithful to my wife, the it implies that she will do all that she can to keep me faithful Nothing specifically says that she will have sex...of how often, but when it says that her body is now mine and mine is now hers...then she is saying that she will willingly offer her body to me for a sexual expression of her love. Now, of course, this does not mean that sex is when I want it only, but it also means that she will do everything when physically capable to keep me satisfied. She has her expectations in marriage. She wants conversation and friendship from me...as an example. If she does not get it, she will be sure to tell me that she thinks that I am neglecting her.

 

For her to say to me that "you may have sex with no one else, but I am never willing to be in the mood for you (or figure out why I am never in the mood)" is giving me no alternatives. I have said it before...

 

When a man has a wife who won't cook, he can hire a cook or do it himself. This is admirable.

 

When a man has a wife who won't clean the house, he can hire a maid or do it himself. This is honorable.

 

When a man has a wife who does not want to take care of her children, he can hire a nanny or do it himself. This is being caring.

 

When a man has a wife who does not do the laundry, he can hire a maid or do it himself. This is being compassionate and kind.

 

But...when a man has a wife who does not like sex, he cannot hire anyone else to fill that position. And doing it with himself is truly not sexually fulfilling. Any other option besides becoming abstinent and non-sexual labels him as an adulterer and a cheat.

 

So..I say it again, a woman who denies her husband sex is cheating and breaking the vows that she stated before God and the people at her wedding.

[Mr. Lucky]

James:

 

If you're wife is cheating on you and breaking her marital vows, why would you stay in the marriage? I'll ask you the same question I asked Moose - if denying you love and intimacy isn't enough, what would it take to be a dealbreaker for you?

 

Mr. Lucky