Constant Refusal equal to cheating

[ntocitilop]

I have a good friend who has a wife who has continually refused him sexually. He tried to talk with her starting out understanding and over a few years it progressed to more fighting. He said that she has a hard time getting the idea that sex is somehow dirty out of her mind. She and he both have grown up evangelical Christians and she refuses to go to counseling about this with or without him. He and I have separately come to the conclusion that refusal for no good reason on a continuous basis should be considered the same as cheating as in a legal sense it denies due affection to the person to whom it is owed in the relationship. I have done some reading about marital relationships and even Dr. Laura Schlessinger seems to lean that way to my suprise. I know she is controversial and many of you may or may not agree with her and I have my issues with her on a few things myself. What do you all say?

[Moose]

And I am one who's in a sexless marriage. I have been married nearly 20 years, and 18 of those have been pretty much sexless. (Maybe once a month if I'm lucky).

 

The last couple of years I've just given up......and I've vowed not to be the one to make the first move anymore. It's just pointless.

 

We are both born again Christians, and have been most of our lives. The Bible tells us that once we're married, our bodies are no longer ours. They're intertwined, and we should be available to each other in that way regardless of our feelings about it.

 

However, when there are underlining issues causing one not to submit to their spouse, it's up to both partners to discover it, and fix it.

 

I've been struggling with that part of the deal, simply because my spouse chooses to ignore the problem, and go on as is. No matter what I try, say, or do....it's obviously not a major issue with her.

 

To say that her denial to be a submissive wife equates to infidelity isn't an accurate statement.

 

Her denial to work on the problem(s), is more of a refusal to work on our marriage. That is grounds for divorce.

 

I happen to be one that cares more for his character, and integrity than my comfort. If your friend is like that, he should be patient, and realize that God knows what's going on, and He'll deal with it accordingly. I say he needs to remain married, and quit looking for reasons to divorce.....my .02.....

[Enema]

I also disagree.

 

I don't think it's cheating, but I think it's very neglectful of your partners needs.

 

and as Moose said, if she's refusing to do anything about this then it's good grounds for divorce.

[Herzen]

I would take the position that my spouse's sex boycott is a material breach of her marital vows--one that would excuse my continued fidelity.

 

In many respects, being sexually rejected on a daily basis is as bad, if not worse, than extra-marital relations.

 

If young children were in the picture I'd remain married and find a lover. If the kids are emancipated, it's divorce.

 

This assumes that there are no physical reasons for nonperformance and safe sex is practiced outside the marriage.

[ntocitilop]

Thank you both for your quick response. For the record, I do not claim Christianity for myself. My friend told me that he had a talk with his wife one day and this was after dealing with this for 8 months. He told her that the way they were living was more as room mates, not husband and wife. They have 2 children and he would not leave while the children are still minors as he would not want to put them through a divorce. However, he told her that if things did not improve that he would strongly consider finding someone who would want action in the bedroom. He was very frustrated and from my prospective...Pissed off. I honestly cannot say as I blame him.

[Moose]

He was very frustrated and from my prospective...Pissed off. I honestly cannot say as I blame him.

Frustrated, pissed, emasculated, hurt, alone, confused and desperate.

 

He'll need to get used to it for a while......

[Trialbyfire]

Your friend is being very childish with his threats of infidelity and his wife is being just as bad. There's obviously a problem, one which the two of them should address through marriage counseling or a counseling session with some sort of Church elder. If either he and/or she is unwilling to go this route to resolve their issues, they don't have any basis to continue with the marriage.

[Moose]

If either he and/or she is unwilling to go this route to resolve their issues, they don't have any basis to continue with the marriage.

TBF, are you saying that my marriage should be terminated? Since she's unwilling to do anything to resolve this? What about the kids? Just curious....

[Trialbyfire]

TBF, are you saying that my marriage should be terminated? Since she's unwilling to do anything to resolve this? What about the kids? Just curious....

Moose, that's solely up to you since I don't know your complete story.

 

The composition of a marriage is two people who are committed to each other, including but not limited to the physical aspect of it. This expands to a family unit when children appear. Dissolution of a marriage doesn't mean that either one of you ceases to be a parent, unless you choose to make a battleground of your children.

[IpAncA]

Hmm...this is interesting.

 

In order for us to divorce according to what we both believe, it has to be either abuse (of any) or cheating. BUT if there is anything else, we go to counseling. If nothing can be solved and one wants to leave, then they can. I'll only leave if he abuses or cheats on me so if he wants out, he'll have to do it himself. Same with me. Way it goes I guess.

 

As for you friend OP, you just make sure you stay out of it.

 

He said that she has a hard time getting the idea that sex is somehow dirty out of her mind.

 

Well that's probably why she's not then.

 

I have 2 friends who is like that who did grow up in the same religion as me and let me say, they'll never get that out of her head.

 

You can't even say penis without them telling me to shush.

 

Has your friends W always been like that? If so then he should have known she'd be like that.

[Moose]

I have 2 friends who is like that who did grow up in the same religion as me and let me say, they'll never get that out of her head.

I could never understand why fellow Christians act this way. I've been a Christian since age 4. God wants us to have a healthy sexual relationship with our spouses. He created us with the ability to enjoy sex and that level of intimacy. How else would we know what heaven is going to be like?

[IpAncA]

I could never understand why fellow Christians act this way. I've been a Christian since age 4. God wants us to have a healthy sexual relationship with our spouses. He created us with the ability to enjoy sex and that level of intimacy. How else would we know what heaven is going to be like?

 

I don't know but I do agree.

 

I can't get a straight answer why some people are like that. I'm the opposite completely.

 

Maybe if they tried it they would like it.

[Lizzie60]

... I would definitely get a lover... Why should he be the one to move out, be away from his kids, lose the house, etc....

 

She deserves a cheater... simple! I have no patience with women like that.

 

Get me his phone number ...LOL

[Kwo-ne'-she]

While I don't think no sex is equal to cheating, when a spouse withholds that level of intimacy, for whatever reason, the other's needs are not being met. Sex isn't the most important thing, but it can become a huge issue if it is almost nonexistent.

 

Cheating/finding a lover? No. But if this is a "deal-breaker", then divorce is probably coming.

[Trialbyfire]

Oh, I forgot to answer the thread title. No, constant refusal doesn't equate to cheating, although both are grounds for the dissolution of the marriage.

[luvstarved]

I do not feel that someone who will not have sex because they think it is dirty, or just otherwise want nothing to do with it should be considered a "cheater" although I agree it is grounds for divorce.

 

However, when someone has a very strong libido and directs their sexual energy to other people rather than their spouse, to me that is cheating. It is a "lesser degree" of cheating but I think cheating nonetheless.

 

My H spent years looking at porn and ogling neighbors, etc and admittedly having lustful thoughts of them. I think he cheated. He devoted what should have been mine to other women, if only in his thoughts.

[RecordProducer]

I would take the position that my spouse's sex boycott is a material breach of her marital vows--one that would excuse my continued fidelity.

If young children were in the picture I'd remain married and find a lover. If the kids are emancipated, it's divorce.

 

This assumes that there are no physical reasons for nonperformance and safe sex is practiced outside the marriage.

I think this is reasonable.

 

He'll need to get used to it for a while......

 

TBF, are you saying that my marriage should be terminated? Since she's unwilling to do anything to resolve this? What about the kids? Just curious....

Moose, I don't understand your need-should-must implications. Not everyone is religious, not everyone can live without romance or sex with equal ease and most certainly, not everyone has five children with his high-school sweetheart.

 

Once you get a divorce, you kinda get a thrill out of it.

 

In order for us to divorce according to what we both believe, it has to be either abuse (of any) or cheating.

According to marriage counselors, neither infidelity nor abuse are the reason number one for a divorce; it's neglect. The saddest part is that when you are horny on Monday and don't get sex, you're horny on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Sat... and so on, every day, until you get sex. Then you're fine for a couple days and then the cycle repeats. So you end up feeling the same as when you were single: you are constantly horny, craving sex, and thinking about it 24/7. It shouldn't be that way in a marriage.

 

Deprivation from sex as a permanent way of life should be your own choice. Nobody deserves to be banned from the Paradise. If you're single, you're wrking on getting some; if you can't find anyone, you keep hoping or you sleep with the first person who wants you. It's like being unemployed; you know that you can get a crappy job or wait for the right job or go back to school and have more opportunities...

 

But being in a sexless marriage is like bveing a slave, if I use the analogy with employment. In both cases, you sacrifice something without getting the main benefit of the position. The main benefit of marriage is love; and love is nothing without affection, romance, and sex. By rule, partners in sexless marriages live like room mates. Some people imagine that these marriages can function perfectly well as romantic love boats, only the penis rarely penetrates the vagina.

 

No! In these marriages, nothing happens. No oral sex, no touching, no kissing, no sparks, no joking about sex, no teasing, nothing... When a person doesn't feel horny, when the libido is close to zero, anything from the love equation that's more than mere friendship - is dead.

 

I don't think rejection is equal to cheating, but it certainly most often leads to it. In a way, it's worse, because cheating you can hide - rejection you can't. Our fellow poster Boshemia said once "Nothing is as lonely as rejection."

 

As for you friend OP, you just make sure you stay out of it.

Good advice.

 

... I would definitely get a lover... Why should he be the one to move out, be away from his kids, lose the house, etc....

I actually agree with this to a certain extent, although cheating complicates many lives so it's not always the happiest option.

 

In any case, if there is no sex between a husband and wife - there is no cheating. As long as he is faithful to his mistress and doesn't cheat on her with his wife, that is!

[Moose]

RP, Your whole post is depressing. To know what this world has come to, and where's it's headed.

Moose, I don't understand your need-should-must implications. Not everyone is religious, not everyone can live without romance or sex with equal ease and most certainly, not everyone has five children with his high-school sweetheart.

My, "need, should, must", implications are easy to understand. It's called, "MORAL STANDARDS". It really doesn't have a lick to do with religion RP. 50 years ago, you'd never hear, "I'd get a lover", or "I'd remain married and find a lover.", or anything of the like. People, (men AND women alike), used to have good moral values. That's all gone now.

 

As far as living without romance or sex with ease.......yeah.....what EVER!

[OpenBook]

I could never understand why fellow Christians act this way. I've been a Christian since age 4. God wants us to have a healthy sexual relationship with our spouses. He created us with the ability to enjoy sex and that level of intimacy. How else would we know what heaven is going to be like?

 

How do you know that this is what God wants?

[OpenBook]

The main benefit of marriage is love

 

No, the main benefit of marriage is to provide a (relatively) safe and secure environment to raise our offspring. Marriage is the most effective way that the human race has come up with to propagate the species.

 

It's only in the last 150 years or so that we've put so many expectations on marriage - you should marry only for love; keep the passion alive in your M; you're both responsible for keeping the M on track and the marriage happy; etc.

 

Evolution at work? or are we making a huge mistake in putting so many expectations on what marriage should be like?

[Storyrider]

Moose, I am sort of in your wife's position. We have sex issues, with me being the reluctant partner. My H is a very religious Catholic, and I am a lukewarm Jew.

 

I'm curious about some of the parallels in our situation. I've posted about this recently in threads of my own.

 

A couple of questions if you don't mind:

 

Has your wife been a Christian all her life, or did she become one around the time you married?

 

Do you think your wife is angry at you and feels unable to express that anger? Do you think she feels comfortable disagreeing with you, or saying that she is right about something and you are wrong?

[RecordProducer]

RP, Your whole post is depressing. To know what this world has come to, and where's it's headed.My, "need, should, must", implications are easy to understand. It's called, "MORAL STANDARDS". It really doesn't have a lick to do with religion RP. 50 years ago, you'd never hear, "I'd get a lover", or "I'd remain married and find a lover.", or anything of the like. People, (men AND women alike), used to have good moral values. That's all gone now.

If you go even further in past, you'd recall that a few centuries ago you'd never hear something like "Blacks deserve equal rights as white people"! Less than a hundred years ago, women didn't have the right to even vote.

 

My point is: times change and thankfully we gain more freedom and self-respect. Does that yield with more selfishness? Of course, but when a marriage consists of constant sacrifice and stress, what's the point of being married? Because of the kids? Buy houses in the same street, share custody, stay friends, and choose your next partners accordance with the children. Too complicated? Living in an unhappy marriage is one of the worst spells that someone can put on you. Staying for the sake of the children may be safe and correct in your book of (rigid) moral standards, but it makes a very sad life.

 

No, the main benefit of marriage is to provide a (relatively) safe and secure environment to raise our offspring. Marriage is the most effective way that the human race has come up with to propagate the species.

 

It's only in the last 150 years or so that we've put so many expectations on marriage - you should marry only for love; keep the passion alive in your M; you're both responsible for keeping the M on track and the marriage happy; etc.

 

Evolution at work? or are we making a huge mistake in putting so many expectations on what marriage should be like?

I think your approach is quite flexible and correctly simplified. Marriage as an institution hasn't changed much in the sense that it always has and will evoke complex emotional inter-relations. Just because marital matters were predetermined by general rules regarding gender roles doesn't mean that people enjoyed marriages more in the past than now.

 

I would never trade the option to easily free myself from an unsatisfactory marriage for the option of unconditional security and certainty that my spouse would never abandon me. I would never accept to be obligated to do the "female" chores, raise the kids, and take care of my husband for the benefit of having a two-parent household. I do some of the "female" chores, but I would rather have fatherless children than go back to a society where a woman was completely dependent on a man.

 

There is no security in marriage nowadays. The dating phase is becoming longer than the marriage. The divorce gives the option to NOT cheat. In the past, many married people cheated, because it was socially unacceptable to get a divorce due to lack of affection. The remainder lived unhappily ever after...

[Mr. Lucky]

My, "need, should, must", implications are easy to understand. It's called, "MORAL STANDARDS".

First off, Moose, I admire your dedication to your family. Hanging in there when things are that tough takes character and backbone - two qualities in short supply today .

 

If you don't mind my asking, what actions would justify (in your mind) leaving your marriage? Your wife's infidelity? Her physical abandonment of your home? Abuse of you or your kids?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Suede O'Nim]

I vote not equal to cheating. It's hurtful and sad, but not equal in my opinion. I'm in a similar situation. My wife has sex with me once every month and a half to 3 months and it feels like she's doing it to keep tabs on whether or not I'm available to her. About once every 18 months or so she'll truly be passionate. We've been married for 17 1/2 years although it's easier to say nearly 20.

 

The beginning of the relationship was passionate. It just ended after a while. My wife's reasoning was that she didn't feel sexy because of her weight. She was overweight since the day I met her and she gained more weight. So, it's a valid reason. But, like your friend's wife, she won't really do anything about it. I cheated on my wife, but that was because that was my nature.

 

My wife and I just aren't compatible sexually now, but I don't think that her hang-ups are the equivalent of cheating. You never know if some kind of accident or disease might make your spouse unavailable sexually. So, lack of sex is always out there as a possibility in a relationship. Being in the same situation, I don't really have any advice. I'm still trying to figure out what I'm going to do. Just thought I'd throw my change in the bucket.

[lonelybird]

Frustrated, pissed, emasculated, hurt, alone, confused and desperate.

 

He'll need to get used to it for a while......

Did you tell your wife how you feel? Do you communicate often?