Getting through the "nice guy" barrier. Putting one's foot down, how do you do it?

[Vertex]

This is something I just cannot bring myself to understand. In all my relationships, I have become a doormat. I receive little to no respect, my needs never get met, I don't get taken seriously, my concerns always get discredited and undercut, and I am constantly taken for granted, even though I bend over backwards to meet a girl's needs. People always say, "At some point you have to put your foot down. She will respect you more for it and things will get better," but this never makes any sense to me. Are girls wanting me to simply turn down their requests? Am I supposed to be self-centered? I don't understand this "Don't do what I say and I will love you more" notion, which is so counterintuitive to me.

 

So, I make this thread asking for EXAMPLES. Not abstract notions or advice, but EXAMPLES that of how you put your foot down in some given situation and set a boundary and how your significant other respected you more for it. I need to see what people are doing so I can emulate it. I need to know how to set boundaries without being an overly arrogant *******, as I want to have my needs met for a change. Whenever I feel like I am trying to be firm, it results in a lot of fighting. This result cannot possibly lead to someone wishing to be more reciprocal -- it just makes them angry when I don't do what they want! But this is apparently what I must do? I don't understand it at all.

 

So, in short (in case you just skip to the end of posts for the gist of things), I would love some examples of how you were assertive and firm by putting your foot down, and avoided being the "nice-guy-doormat," and what positive conclusion came as a result.

[Krytellan]

I suppose I can speak from some experience here. Examples:

 

Don't give a backrub every time. You very much can and should say you are too tired sometimes.

 

Don't drop everything to go meet her at her request.

 

Make sure she comes to your place at least 33% of the time (contrived number, but good measuring stick) to avoid the "you always going to her" thing.

 

Don't buy her a bunch of things early in the relationship. Before the 6 month mark, there's no reason to have spent more than a modest amount in sundries (flowers, small but meaningful gifts). IMO, stay away from jewelry and such until at least this time.

 

Ask for and expect sexual favors that you enjoy. It's OK to look out for her needs, but you need to have expectations too.

 

Don't fall into the "I'll say anything to avoid a fight" routine. It only delays the inevitable and she will walk all over you en route to a bigger fight anyway. A woman respects a man who stands his ground when necessary.

 

Do not put her above all else. Never forget about your life and your plans.

 

That's all I can think of at the moment. Notice that at no time did I say treat her like crap or as the enemy. Just never lose yourself or forget who you are. If you are ever unsure whether you should be responding in a particular way to her, ask yourself what you would do if it was a really good friend of yours rather than a girlfriend. It shouldn't be much different.

 

Good luck, and ditch the superlatives. Nothing "always" happens. And you are not a victim.

 

OH!!! "always treat your bird like you treat your kite. Get inside of her three times a day and take her to heaven and back" -Lord Flasheart

[monkey00]

The simplest thing you can do is act on your needs, dont try to rationalize it in the fashion of: "if I do X, she will have Y reaction."

 

Y reaction may be negative, but I think you just have to learn to deal with it. You cant run from your problems forever, you just have to say 'no' sometimes but be reasonable as well.

 

And if the girl continues being unreasonable like a baby, then she'll have to learn being reasonable. If she's incapable of it, then I think its best to move on and find someone who can.

 

her: Lets meet up after work!

you: I cant tonight I have to work overtime.

her: you dont care about me, I thought we made plans to eat at X tonight.

me: I'll tell you what, Ill make it up to you this weekend...come over and I'll cook you the best spaghetti you're ever tasted!

her: you suck, but OK.

 

Thats a hypothetical situation, every person reacts differently. Why dont you discuss one of your situations so we can find a way around it?

[Krytellan]

Oh, and as to the positive benefits of this behavior. I have a failed marriage and a recent break-up to show for it, but they weren't my thing. It's just so damn difficult to find a woman who can acknowledge and appreciate a good thing when they have it. But I have to believe they exist.

[tanbark813]

This is the problem:

 

I bend over backwards to meet a girl's needs.

 

I remember your post about your girl not being appreciative of stuff you do for her. So first and foremost, stop doing things for her when she's a bitch to you. Only do stuff for her when she's cool to you.

 

This isn't the same situation you're in but here's an example:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t74299

[monkey00]

I think before anything, it is essential to possess a certain amount of self-worth in oneself. If you have any of it at all. Then honestly, i dont think you need our advice.

 

Can you be the type of guy who can be happy with life if you're not in relationship? Or must you always have a woman in your life to make you happy? Think about it. But personally I think the former must exist in order for a proper relationship to function.

[jcster]

How to get through the "nice guy barrier."

 

1. Learn to be alone and enjoy it.

2. Learn to love yourself.

3. Learn to say "no."

4. Learn to ask for what you need.

5. Learn to leave if you don't get it.

 

When you learn to be alone and to love yourself, then you will have no patience at all for the crap you've been putting up with. You would RATHER be alone than be unhappy. If a relationship doesn't make your life better, it's not worth it - and you have to learn to value your life on your own terms to make that judgement.

[jcster]

"Nice" guys/girls are "nice" because they feel that they have no intrinsic value. They feel like they have to add something to the bargain in order to be loved. They also require being needed in order to have self-esteem and a sense of relevance (codependency). People without this problem offer only themselves, not their goods and services.

[Yamaha]

You give away your power to soon and become a doormat because you are afraid she will leave you if you are yourself. Nice guys are insecure because they put their needs on the shelf and cater to the women they desire. If you do this early in a relationship she just feels smothered unless she is at the same point as you. Never let your feelings out until you know that she feels the same way. You can do nice things but don't let her think she can treat you as a piece of furniture. Take your time in doing so many things for her and make her earn your respect and love.

[My Fair Katie]

I'm not sure if you're looking for a female perspective, but being one of the anti-nice guy women, I thought I might be able to add some examples. (I'm also anti-jerk for the record).

 

1. Keep separate friends and activities. If you have a particular night you play poker on, keep it without any apologies.

 

2. You shouldn't always have to pay for dates, if she offers, take her up on it.

 

3. Also dates shouldn't always be something she'll enjoy at your cost. In other words, if you hate flea markets for the love of all that is holy DO NOT go.

 

4. Ask for things. Don't always give a backrub, ask for them when you want them.

 

5. Don't go shopping with her, if she needs a shopping buddy to go try on dresses she can find another female. And for the love of god, never hold her purse.

 

6. Take the relationship slow. Don't be too quick to "fall in love." As I understand it men tend to fall in love much faster than women, try to guard your heart a little longer and really get a feel for any woman.

 

7. This may seem counter-intuitive to most, but I think sleep overs are okay now and then, but I think it's good to remain strong and limit the amount of time she sleeps over. If she starts needing a drawer that comes too close to her invading. Since you have a tendency to be a doormat/nice guy you gotta make sure you retain YOUR space. If you gotta work the next day she can go home.

 

Lastly, this is something I do with everyone. When I put a boundary in place, it's not up for argument. So if she starts to push, you need NOT engage in a debate. As long as you are not asking the unreasonable (like say in number 7 above it's 3 am and you want her to drive home, that could be a bit too much), you do not need to justify yourself. "I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's really best for me if _______________." (fill in the blank with "we don't go out Thursday night," "you sleep at your own house tonight," "I go play pick up basketball with the boys tonight," etc.).

 

Good luck!

[Vertex]

But how do you say no without sounding like an *******? Like if my girlfriend asks me to hold her purse, for example. There's no way to say "No" to this without coming off the wrong way. Also, how does one ask for things (I mean, I still haven't found the right way to ask for oral sex, for instance) without sounding like you are begging/looking to start a huge debate?

[jcster]

You have to lose your fear of sounding like an ass. There are always going to be people out there who will make you feel like crap for denying them anything. A good friend of mine told me this after I asked her the very same question: "your mean is the same as other peoples' nice." Remember that, and if you really don't want to do something, don't do it. As for the blowjob - just ask for it (at the correct time, of course).

 

Seriously though, are you going to continue going out with this chick? She sounds just awful.

[My Fair Katie]

But how do you say no without sounding like an *******? Like if my girlfriend asks me to hold her purse, for example. There's no way to say "No" to this without coming off the wrong way. Also, how does one ask for things (I mean, I still haven't found the right way to ask for oral sex, for instance) without sounding like you are begging/looking to start a huge debate?

 

Well for one thing, don't be available for holding her purse (ie don't go shopping for clothes with her). If you're out and she sees a cute dress she *must* try on and she asks you to hold her purse just say, "Sorry, I'm gonna go look at big screens at the electronic store while you browse clothes, let's meet up in a half an hour at the bookstore."

 

As for oral sex, I dunno, the men who I've been with usually gently lead me down there after making out for awhile. A strong (but not forceful) hand on the shoulder applying light pressure. And you can ask in the moment without begging or looking like a jerk, but it's hard for me to convey here without coming across as a perv.

[searchingforanswers]

I think there has been some good advice here, but I'm going to play a little devil's advocate for a minute on this idea of purse holding. Chivalry isn't dead, so if you are comfortable holding your girl's purse while she gets out of the car or while she tries on a dress then do it. But don't do things like carry it around for the entire afternoon while she's flipping through the racks. Just hand it back to her after a minute or two or whatever is appropriate for the situation. It shouldn't be made into a big deal. Personally, I feel there is nothing wrong with being a nice guy, holding doors open, paying for dates in the beginning, etc.

 

I'm a nice guy, good guy whatever you want to call it. If that's who you are, it's who you are. There is nothing wrong with being respectful to a woman, but you do have to maintain a sense of self and have respect for your own needs. I do think if you give away too much then it is easy to become a doormat. The problem comes when you don't ask for things in return or get your needs met in return. Like I said, I think it's about respect. If you are respectful to her, if you respect yourself and don't lose yourself in her you will find that you can be nice, but not be a doormat.

 

I'm no therapist, but I think you need to be honest with yourself and question how you respond to conflict more than how to be nice without being a jerk. Remember there is a difference between assertive and aggressive. Be assertive. It's OK to pick a movie you want to see. Its OK for you to say you don't like something. If she explodes that is a her problem, but if she can respond calmly then your concerns get taken care of and, while she might not like it at that moment, she'll be pleased that she isn't mothering you or that you don't bend to her every demand.

 

I will say that if you are not used to saying "no," it may be a challenge and uncomfortable for awhile, but if you have good reason to say "no" she will ultimately respect you more and you'll both be happier when you learn to communicate what you want and need.

[katiebour]

My boyfriend is a nice guy, and he holds my purse when I'm driving or when I need him to.

 

But I take it back at the first opportunity because it's MY purse, and I'm a nice girl.

 

Seriously though, I have been the doormat in previous relationships, doing everything that I could to focus on my SO's needs, ignoring what I wanted because I felt like I was being "needy." I built up a lot of resentment in those relationships because I never felt like I got back what I was giving, and instead of being grateful, those SOBs starting taking all of my services for granted.

 

After the breakup of the last relationship, I had an epiphany when I went camping with some friends. I stayed one day and one night, and as I slept on the chilly, hard ground with a swiftly deflating air mattress, contemplating how bored I had been the previous day, I started guiltily thinking that I wanted to go home.

 

Oh no! Going home? Pleasing myself instead of my friends, who were having such a blast and wanted me along? God forbid I do anything to disturb their happiness!

 

I thought about it for hours, agonizing before I finally realized I wanted to be home, having a hot cup of tea, playing a silly game on my computer and petting my kitties. And I figured out that life was too short to spend miserably camping when I could be more happily ensconced at home.

 

Long story short, I caught a ride home with a few friends who were going back, and resolved firmly from then on to listen to my inner voice when it starts to chime in that I'd really rather be doing something else.

 

I started to have similar feelings at marathon get-togethers of my boyfriend's family, where we'd be there for 9 hours and they'd beg us to sleep overnight, stay another day. I'd want to be going home, but feel guilty about cutting my b/f's time with his family short. After being "the nice girl" and biting the bullet for a year's worth of gatherings (they only live a 1/2 hour away, so it was a lot of get-togethers!) I stood up for myself, we had an argument/discussion where we finally compromised- I wouldn't nag him to leave every five minutes, and we wouldn't stay longer than 4 hours. We are both much happier as a result.

 

I've resolved to speak up when I want something, and to not feel guilty about trying to fill my own wants. I also am very conscious of my boyfriend's contributions in this house, and I thank him every time he does the dishes or picks up. I don't take what he does for me for granted, so he doesn't have to feel like a put-upon "nice guy." Plus I pay him for back and foot-rubs, $1 for 5-10 minutes (yes, seriously I do!) It's my way of keeping myself conscious and grateful for the things he does for me.

 

Listening to your inner voice prevents the build-up of feelings of resentment and martyrdom. You feel like you're getting your share of wants in the relationship, and as a result, you feel like giving more. It's the magic penny syndrome, if you will. This cuts down on unhappiness and fights in the relationship.

 

It's not that a girl doesn't want a "nice guy." She just doesn't want that "nice guy" behavior coming back to passively-aggressively haunt her in the next argument that comes along.

 

For example:

 

Girlfriend: Where would you like to eat?

Nice Guy: Wherever you want to go is fine with me. I don't care. I live to please you!

 

Girlfriend: Ok, let's go to Big Ted's Buffalo Steakhouse!

 

(later that night)

 

Girlfriend: You seem upset. What's wrong?

Nice Guy: You never care about what I want. It's always "you, you, you!"

Girlfriend: What are you talking about? I asked you where you wanted to go to eat!

 

Nice Guy: Yeah, but I wanted to go eat at Dairy Queen! I just went to the Steakhouse because you wanted to!

[JCD]

If there is something you have a problem doing then you need to discuss it with her and come to a compromise. That's really the best way. You then don't sound like she doesn't matter and that you're a king and what you say goes. That's being rude for no good reason, only to get back at her. Whoever said that you need to find out who you are by living and being happy alone before getting involved in a relationship is right. You then know that you don't need her to be happy and won't put up with lot of crap only to appease her so she keeps making you happy.

[directx]

But how do you say no without sounding like an *******? Like if my girlfriend asks me to hold her purse, for example. There's no way to say "No" to this without coming off the wrong way. Also, how does one ask for things (I mean, I still haven't found the right way to ask for oral sex, for instance) without sounding like you are begging/looking to start a huge debate?

 

How do you say no? Say no and give an explanation.

"What? We agreed on this movie and you want us to go this one at the last minute? No way. You wouldnt like it if i did it to you, would you? Plus, I got my mind all set for this one!"

 

Asking for oral sex? In the moment, just say 'hey, put your mouth on it!" if she refuses, you cant win this one. So this one is just fear of rejection.

I'd jerk her chain though if she says no. Just say "Yeah, you probably shouldnt. There is no way your gonna top what I had last night anyway."

[halfarock]

5. Don't go shopping with her, if she needs a shopping buddy to go try on dresses she can find another female. And for the love of god, never hold her purse.

You take all the fun out of it. Whenever a woman has ever handed me her purse I’ve just taken it with gusto, started walking like a woman, talking all gay like, start going through it, publicly announcing what I found inside, even if I had to make stuff up. Tampons are always fun to play with. Most women don’t ask a second time or if they do, with great hesitancy.

 

I actually enjoy shopping with my girlfriend.

[FormerNiceGuy]

Nice guys VS. GOOD MEN.

 

This article was the first article that changed my life, so you might want to give it a read. I googled it a long time ago. It talks about the difference between a GOOD MAN and a "nice" guy. Read it.

 

"NICE GUYS"........

 

 

1) ...Capitulate to Women's Whims.

"Yes Dear." "Whatever you want, honey." Men only say this to avoid conflict (at best) or (at worst) because they pathetically think that their efforts will somehow impress a woman. Women smell insincerity a mile away. Sorry.

 

2) ...Is Afraid to Lose the Woman He Is With.

Therefore, he literally bends over backwards not to "upset" her or say the wrong thing. Despite the obvious desperation involved here, arguably the most unattractive aspect of all this to a woman is how BORING it is.

 

3) ...Has Zero Leadership Ability.

Guys often hear that "if Mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy". So the thought process is geared toward letting them make decisions and letting them get what they want. Unfortunately, women have a level of respect for a man that correlates to his level of leadership in a relationship. Zero leadership equals zero respect...which, logically, equals zero second dates.

 

4) ...Lacks Confidence.

If you are worried she won't like you she probably won't. And similarly, if you act "nice" because you haven't the courage to stand up for yourself, she'll likely walk all over you...disgusted by every second of it.

 

5) ...Has Thinly-Veiled Ulterior Motives.

Nobody likes to be "brown nosed" or "buttered up". There is no more blatant display of viewing a woman as a purely sexual object than to go overboard being "nice". She knows, you know and the rest of the world knows you wouldn't be so "nice" if she wasn't so sexy. Consider how weak this appears to a woman. End of story.

 

 

Meanwhile,

THE GOOD MAN WHO WINS

(Having Come from a Position of Strength)

 

 

1) ...Treats All Women Well, Regardless of Sexual Attractiveness.

Guys, take this test for yourself: Do you open doors for ALL women, or only for the ones who look good. If the latter, don't be so shocked that your dates slot you in the JBF zone so much. Your "nice" behavior is all about manipulating women into giving you what you need. Start appreciating women more genuinely, and you will begin to be more genuinely appreciated. Is this really so difficult to get?

 

2) ...Is Not Focused on "Getting Some".

Sex-starved men stay hungry. Men without pressing sexual needs cause women to feel more comfortable in their presence. Ironically, women who are comfortable around a man are more attracted...and ultimately more sexual. So the pattern operates.

 

3) ...Takes Charge.

Such a man does not sheepishly ask a woman her preference and thereby let her dictate the flow of a date. A Good Man has paid attention and learned what makes the woman tick. When the date comes, he has the plan completely handled. At the end of the evening, the woman is often flabbergasted at how "perfect" her evening full of surprises was. But the Good Man with leadership ability knows it was all no accident.

 

4) ...Has Options.

Therefore, he succeeds in causing the woman he is with feel to particularly valuable and special. She views herself as the "winner", and rightly so. Other women want this guy, but she is with him. That feeling is a good one to have. If a man can inspire a woman to feel valuable OR special he's on the right track, but getting both right is an unbeatable combination. By the way, contrast this scenario with the weak man's cavalcade of compliments and/or gifts designed to help him somehow manipulate a woman's attraction.

 

5) ...Has High Standards.

This means the man is EVALUATING the woman he is with rather than attempting to impress her. He has complete control over his dating life, and as a good man is confident enough in his character to realize that women worth his time and effort will recognize that and be impressed without his having to press the issue.

 

 

This is advice you probably won't get from women. It's mainly a guy's perspective, but trust me...it's sound advice.

[Steveto]

FormerNiceGuy

 

Very well said. You need to frame that. I'm the type of guy that learns the hard way. I think Focusing on being yourself (A GOOD PERSON), then you should really be ok. Good and Nice are ambiguous, so it's knowing where that fine line is.