IfWishesWereHorses Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Fire and Ice, I like the fact that your man acted when he saw that you were upset, I like the fact that he came clean and that he returned the money in front of you. I think that coming to you with a desire to fix things says alot for him. Hope you have a great day at work.
Author FireandIce Posted June 20, 2007 Author Posted June 20, 2007 Isn't that funny!!! What, is he dumb or what? He couldn't think about that by himself... duh... I have my doubts... sorry but I think he's playing dumb... He didn't think he should have to pay her the money and he was pissed off that she even asked him for it. It was the type of situation "Let's go out." "I have no money" "Here's $30, let's go". She never once asked him for the money until she called on Mothers Day (and she called plenty of times before then). That was her excuse for calling. Then of course after he said "we used that money together" she then told him that she really didn't care about the money (which she also told his friends girlfriend) and proceeded to tell him how much she loved and missed him, blah, blah, blah. It was all just a stupid little game. Anyways like I said, we'll just have to wait and see what happens. I doubt she'll go away but now I'm interested to see what other excuse she can find in order to call him.
Author FireandIce Posted June 20, 2007 Author Posted June 20, 2007 Fire and Ice, I like the fact that your man acted when he saw that you were upset, I like the fact that he came clean and that he returned the money in front of you. I think that coming to you with a desire to fix things says alot for him. Hope you have a great day at work. Yeah I guess what I said to him the night before kind of sunk in (about him caring more about her feelings than mine). He said he didn't want to tell me about the money because, 1) he knew it was just an excuse she was using and he really didn't owe it to her and 2) because he didn't want to go into details of things he did with her (they went to a movie that night) because we both decided that after our initial talk when he came back that we would no longer discuss the "details". He knew I'd want to know what the money was for and well, I don't know, I guess he was ashamed about it or something. I really don't know but he was very honest about it last night and when I said "let's go" he didn't try to talk me out of it or anything. When we got to her house he asked if I wanted to come up but I said no. I could see and hear what I wanted to from where the car was parked so there was no need to confront her again. She saw that I was there so that was enough.
Author FireandIce Posted June 20, 2007 Author Posted June 20, 2007 F&I I can totally empathise with your frustration. While your H is telling you that he wants to be with you and at least he is not a heartless prick and he still cares about the OW's feelings, his main duty and caring should be for you right now. I think he is still not living up to the extend of what he rightly OWES you for this trust to be gained again, for your intimacy to improve for life to be back on track. While you do not want to play the chastizing school principal role (well maybe in the bedroom for some added spice down the road sorry I coulnd't resist...) while you don't want to play the mom role he has to understand that the dynamic for now between the two of and has changed indefinitely. What this means is that a lot of the privacy that he was privied to in the trusting rel. you once had is no longer going to be granted so freely until you feel you can trust him even somewhat again. So: 1. No more phone calls in the other room or in private from you, his is no longer having the A, why should he talk to his OW in private? You are a team, she is the outsider he talks to the OW if he feels the need because he feels badly about what he also did to her but no more hiding it from you. Don't allow him alone time to communicate with her, he should have absolutely nothing more to hide and if he wants to make one more phone call or email to let her down easy but let her down nonetheless fine but it must be done in your presence. 2. Make sure it is the OW who is still trying to contact him and not the other way around, who knows maybe he is secretly emailing her etc. be very careful. With having been the "OW" myself not while we were going out there was no sneaking around but now that he is back home living with his W he tries to contact me periodically from new email accounts he takes out, fake profiles online or from weird phone # that I will not know it is him calling. So just be careful that he is not indeed the one who is initiating contact with the OW and this is why she still calls. 3. As much as he hates confrontation, tough cookies, he NEEDS to call this OW say to her clearly and firmly that the A is done, that there is no more hope for them that he is 100% commited to you and the marriage and that there will be no more A, and he needs to do this right infront of you. No hiding. And NO it is not unreasonable of you to demand this, it's the LEAST that he owes you to put your mind at ease. 4. Lastly it's fine for you to confront the OW but if he is going back on his word to you and speaking to her behind your back, your talking to her is completely futile. In order for it to hit home it has to come straight from the source. 5. when she calls answer the phone and if you have to tell her you will call the police do so. Do what it takes to let her know you are serious. OF course that statement coming from him has much more weight, but your guy sounds like he is acting sort of whimpy now, Don't fret it though....a lot of WHs are whimpy in the end....they have huge cojones to get the A rolling but when it comes down to ending it all they might as well be eunuchs.... He pretty much agreed to all of what you just said. He knows that I don't trust him and he hates that but he knows that he did this to himself and only he's to blame. As for making sure he's not emailing her, LMAO he doesn't even know how to use email so I don't have to worry about that.
Author FireandIce Posted June 20, 2007 Author Posted June 20, 2007 Fire, If your husband is not fully committed to you, rebuilding the marriage, and being trustworthy, it would bother me too. There is something that constantly confuses me (which may be why I have been single the past 7 years!). When men do something really shortsided and stupid (like your husbands affair), they want it to just "dissappear" put it behind them, announce they made a wrong choice at first be eventually came to the correct decision, and get back to normal. This doesen't seem realistic to me, but I have seen or read of it over and over. When a woman does something stupid or shortsided.. like an affair, they want to be "understood", and forgiven. My ex is an example of that. She still would like to be "understood, and forgiven". That's not reasonable either. IMO (which may well be flawed) is that men want to be judged more on current events than women. "Shorter memories" I guess. This doesen't work well for their women. My guess is that your husband wants to be judged on his current actions not past ones, which isn't really the answer you want. It wouldn't set well with me either. Clearly he shouldn't be in contact with his affair partner. IF I did something as wrong as he did, I absolutely wouldn't want anything to do with the situation (OW) ever again. It would be like picking up a burning log barehanded, you don't do it twice. The fact that he continues to be in even limited contact is troubling. I hope you find a way to solve the problem that works! The part that I bolded is exactly what my husband thinks. He has constantly said "I'm here with you", "Can't you see how much I love you" blah blah blah. Yes, I know all of that but it doesn't erase the affair. His actions (when he's not keeping stupid crap from me) does make it easier but it doesn't make it go away. I really think time is the only way to cure that. I can't blame him for not telling you .. he knew he'd be in for a world of yelling and bad feelings if he did. Especially if it's a nothing phone call. The OW is just obsessing for awhile. If he stopped answering her calls, she may start acting crazy. There would have been a heck of a lot less yelling and bad feelings if he had told me right from the start about the phone call. I wouldn't have been as angry with him (although I would have still been angry about him not being forceful when he tells her to leave him alone) and most of my anger would have been directed towards her. I explained that to him last night when we talked. He said he didn't want to tell me because I was already upset and when I asked why he didn't tell me last week when I asked if she had contacted him he didn't want to deal with me being angry or upset about it. He knew that since he didn't tell me right away that I'd be more angry about him keeping it to himself. He's right. I agree with Lizzie. He needs to convince you that YOU come first and to convince her that she is out of his life forever. To make some headway towards this, he should get on the phone with her, while you listen to at least his side of the conversation, and to tell her that it is completely over, that she must not call anymore at any time or place, and that he loves you. He must be firm. His choice is clearly now between hurting her or hurting your marriage. She is interfering with your serenity and his. She is relentless. She is putting herself in harms way by hounding him after she was told it was over. So, she must be hurt. She will live. He is NOT responsible for taking care of her, but for taking care of you and the marriage. If he is smart and wants to earn some credits towards regaining your trust, he should let you "write the script" for this call (if you want to do that). Well when we went to her house he did write a letter to her incase she wasn't there. Everything he put in it (I didn't tell him what to write) is what I would have told him to say anyways. She was there though so he just said it in person which IMO is better than leaving a note anyways, especially since she saw me sitting there waiting. I'm sure she'll just blame me for it anyways (for what he said) but at least I know myself that he said it. That's all I can really do at this point.
Sheba Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 FireandIce I am very happy for you! That issue was handled perfectly! Your husband has gone some distance towards proving himself. Good for him for doing it and good for you for giving him this chance. I am sure that there is still a long way to go, but you must feel a lot better having taken away her "excuse" and have put on a performance of marital solidarity before her. I hope she turns her stalking attentions on some poor single fellow. I wish you well!
smartgirl Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 F&I - you have been getting some good advice - esp the list from TomCat. Just a couple of comments. Don't underestimate the lengths that a conflict avoider will go to to avoid conflict. And the problems this causes are frustrating as hell. He will never be as blunt as he should with OW because he doesn't want to hurt her, he doesn't want to be yelled at, he doesn't want her to hate him, etc. The conflict avoider wants to avoid all of that - the stuff that hurts him and the stuff that hurts other people. But that often means they are not clear with their intentions and they lie to avoid a difficult situation. I am married to a self confessed conflict avoider. A manly man, don't get me wrong, but big time conflict avoider. For months he wasn't as emphatic as he should have been with OW about how over the A feelings were for him and how committed he was to rebuilding our marriage. He didn't want to hurt her more than she was. She's an adult and knew what she was doing - no sympathy from me. But he felt responsible. But, she was being pretty hard headed about it. She just kept pushing him for about 8 months until he finally snapped, told her he needed to be honest with me for the sake of our marriage (she wanted him to keep concealing information) and suggested they go tell her H all about it. That finally got her attention and she finally stopped. I don't think she really understood until that moment how changed he was. He lied to me for months about her confrontations and the conversations. He felt like he was "dealing with it", that it was his cross to bear and I should be spared the pain of hearing about it. Plus, he didn't want to have to talk about it. Avoid, avoid, avoid. I still don't know if he would tell me if she confronted him again no matter how important I've told him the truth is to me. They don't realize how hard it is to trust what they say because they beat around the bush and lie to avoid the conflict. This confuses, misleads and causes more of the pain they say they are trying to avoid. Keep in mind too, this is how they get involved in A's in the first place. They don't tell the W when something is bothering them because they don't want to hurt her feelings. They let themselves get closer to another woman and don't put a stop to it for fear of being rude or hurtful. Then they are in two relationships and don't have the guts to go one way or another until one of the women puts a stop to it. You think your H is a nice man. The traits that make him that way also cause him to do things that drive you crazy. It makes sense, even though it is frustrating.
Lynna Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 He will never be as blunt as he should with OW because he doesn't want to hurt her, he doesn't want to be yelled at, he doesn't want her to hate him, etc. The conflict avoider wants to avoid all of that - the stuff that hurts him and the stuff that hurts other people. But that often means they are not clear with their intentions and they lie to avoid a difficult situation. Keep in mind too, this is how they get involved in A's in the first place. They don't tell the W when something is bothering them because they don't want to hurt her feelings. They let themselves get closer to another woman and don't put a stop to it for fear of being rude or hurtful. Then they are in two relationships and don't have the guts to go one way or another until one of the women puts a stop to it. Are we married to the same man??? What a perfect description!!! This is my husband and his situation almost exactly! There are probably a lot more like that out there than we know.
Lynna Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 F&I, Good for you and good for your husband! That was totally the right thing to do. Nothing is better than a united front!
Author FireandIce Posted June 21, 2007 Author Posted June 21, 2007 FireandIce I am very happy for you! That issue was handled perfectly! Your husband has gone some distance towards proving himself. Good for him for doing it and good for you for giving him this chance. I am sure that there is still a long way to go, but you must feel a lot better having taken away her "excuse" and have put on a performance of marital solidarity before her. I hope she turns her stalking attentions on some poor single fellow. I wish you well! Oh I'm sure it won't matter if the guy is single or not. This is her second married man. But taking away her excuse was number one on my list and hopefully this will be the end of it. F&I, Good for you and good for your husband! That was totally the right thing to do. Nothing is better than a united front! Both of you are so right and that's exactly why I told him that I needed to go. I wanted her to see me there and see that he had told me what was going on. As he walked away she was watching him and that's when she saw me. She was in tears and I just sat there and smiled. It felt good.
Author FireandIce Posted June 21, 2007 Author Posted June 21, 2007 F&I - you have been getting some good advice - esp the list from TomCat. Just a couple of comments. Don't underestimate the lengths that a conflict avoider will go to to avoid conflict. And the problems this causes are frustrating as hell. He will never be as blunt as he should with OW because he doesn't want to hurt her, he doesn't want to be yelled at, he doesn't want her to hate him, etc. The conflict avoider wants to avoid all of that - the stuff that hurts him and the stuff that hurts other people. But that often means they are not clear with their intentions and they lie to avoid a difficult situation. I am married to a self confessed conflict avoider. A manly man, don't get me wrong, but big time conflict avoider. For months he wasn't as emphatic as he should have been with OW about how over the A feelings were for him and how committed he was to rebuilding our marriage. He didn't want to hurt her more than she was. She's an adult and knew what she was doing - no sympathy from me. But he felt responsible. But, she was being pretty hard headed about it. She just kept pushing him for about 8 months until he finally snapped, told her he needed to be honest with me for the sake of our marriage (she wanted him to keep concealing information) and suggested they go tell her H all about it. That finally got her attention and she finally stopped. I don't think she really understood until that moment how changed he was. He lied to me for months about her confrontations and the conversations. He felt like he was "dealing with it", that it was his cross to bear and I should be spared the pain of hearing about it. Plus, he didn't want to have to talk about it. Avoid, avoid, avoid. I still don't know if he would tell me if she confronted him again no matter how important I've told him the truth is to me. They don't realize how hard it is to trust what they say because they beat around the bush and lie to avoid the conflict. This confuses, misleads and causes more of the pain they say they are trying to avoid. Keep in mind too, this is how they get involved in A's in the first place. They don't tell the W when something is bothering them because they don't want to hurt her feelings. They let themselves get closer to another woman and don't put a stop to it for fear of being rude or hurtful. Then they are in two relationships and don't have the guts to go one way or another until one of the women puts a stop to it. You think your H is a nice man. The traits that make him that way also cause him to do things that drive you crazy. It makes sense, even though it is frustrating. Your husband sounds a lot like mine and our situation. It's very frustrating because I'm not a conflict avoider at all. I'd rather just get everything out in the open, deal with it and then move on. He'd rather keep it in and hope he doesn't have to deal with it. I was quite impressed about how he dealt with her the other night. Like I said, he didn't scream or anything, he just said in a tone that I rarely hear from him (lol) "Here's your money. Now I don't want you to call me, drive by my house or send me messages through my friends. It's over. I'm back with my wife and we are very happy. You need to move on." She just said "okay" and he then walked away. He actually said while we were driving away that it was a sort of closure for him and he felt that she would now be out of our lives. I told him that I was proud that he finally confessed and how he dealt with it. It was a good turning point I think because IMO there wasn't any real closure with her. She just continued to pursue him and he was so worried about hurting her that he'd rather just ignore the whole thing and hoped it would go away. I think our talk that night really helped as well because he told me last night that he didn't see it as though he was caring more about her feelings than mine until I explained everything to him. He said he was trying to protect me from hurting anymore and he knew if I knew she was still contacting him then I would be hurt.
smartgirl Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 I've read enough posts from BS and OW to see the common theme of conflict avoiders getting into As. They are one of the chief types that get into them without really being the aggressor. When women talk about men who get involved semi-reluctantly with women who come onto them, many OW scoff. They see the man as being highly involved. But often the conflict avoiders are the one's that do slip into the As with some degree of hesitation. They know they shouldn't, but they aren't willing to stand up and tell the other woman that it has to stop. They also generally tend to have the single A and aren't serial cheaters. BS and OW find them equally maddening. Both want action and straight anwers from the man and both are disappointed.
Author FireandIce Posted June 22, 2007 Author Posted June 22, 2007 I've read enough posts from BS and OW to see the common theme of conflict avoiders getting into As. They are one of the chief types that get into them without really being the aggressor. When women talk about men who get involved semi-reluctantly with women who come onto them, many OW scoff. They see the man as being highly involved. But often the conflict avoiders are the one's that do slip into the As with some degree of hesitation. They know they shouldn't, but they aren't willing to stand up and tell the other woman that it has to stop. They also generally tend to have the single A and aren't serial cheaters. BS and OW find them equally maddening. Both want action and straight anwers from the man and both are disappointed. I know what you mean but my husband knew full well what he was doing and I don't think she had to twist his arm to sleep with her. He was unhappy at home and like you said, instead of dealing with the issues here (although he did try a couple of times) he just stepped out. Frustrating as heck if you ask me. I know it was all about the sex because he wasn't getting it here. That is probably 75% my fault (maybe a bit higher...lol) and I know that and have worked on it. But even when I kicked him out he was still trying to avoid the real issue-- the affair. I remember when I confronted him with the A once he was gone he still tried to deny it. I told him that he wasn't living here anymore so why is he still lying? He finally spilled his guts. Avoid, avoid, avoid....
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