Author serial muse Posted June 19, 2007 Author Posted June 19, 2007 After thinking about this a bit more, I think I've sorted out what's driving him, and it's completely in character, now that I think about it. He's always been the kind of person who saw himself as a "nice guy" - and outwardly, he was: everybody's buddy, the life of the party, the guy who made people laugh. He talked smack about people behind their backs, though, and had cheated on people before me. But somehow he managed to escape any taint - the people he screwed over forgave him, or had done reprehensible things too, or didn't take it too seriously, or whatever. Basically, he never felt accountable. (One of my friends asked me later whether I thought he was a sociopath, because he had us all so fooled. ) After I found out about his cheating on me, he started out both compartmentalizing (I didn't think about how you'd feel) and blaming me (you neglected me) - a one-two punch designed to shift the blame away - but in the end, he was forced to face a side of himself that he doesn't like and doesn't want to think is really there. Having that self image of the "nice guy" destroyed - and, even worse, having his family's image of him as the stand-up family guy shattered - is what's really bothering him here, I think. And now he wants me to give that back to him. That self-image. I think he really can't stand thinking of himself as a guy who would do all the crap he did. I'm sure he'd rather pretend it all never happened. It's so twisted. I'm not generally a grudge-holder; if he were to say to me, as Sheba suggested, that he wishes he had never done it and is sorry and hopes to live a life that makes up for it - I'd forgive him in my heart, be glad he owned up to it and accepted responsibility, and that would be that. But I guess what bugs me about this email is that he hasn't changed - just like Herzen said. He isn't planning to examine himself and think about why he did what he did. He just wants it to go away so that he can reclaim a self-image that he's comfortable with. And it's like he's asking me to shortcut that process for him, instead of doing the hard work himself. Even knowing this, I am toying with the idea of saying, "move on - I have." I think that would ease his mind, even though it's not strictly saying that it's all okay. But I think I won't. Basically, he's not part of my life now, and I don't want to reconnect. For myself, I pity him, and I suppose in a way that is forgiveness - I'm not expecting anything from him and I don't hate him. I don't think he's capable of becoming someone that I could respect more or consider friendship with, and I don't want to hold onto anger just for the sake of revenge or to hurt him. I just want to move on, and therefore I won't let him back in.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 It's so twisted. I'm not generally a grudge-holder; if he were to say to me, as Sheba suggested, that he wishes he had never done it and is sorry and hopes to live a life that makes up for it - I'd forgive him in my heart, be glad he owned up to it and accepted responsibility, and that would be that. But I guess what bugs me about this email is that he hasn't changed - just like Herzen said. He isn't planning to examine himself and think about why he did what he did. He just wants it to go away so that he can reclaim a self-image that he's comfortable with. I think its called a split self. These types care only about how THEY LOOK, not who they are. They are not capable of self intropsection because they cannot get intouch with their "true self". They live as for how they look in others eyes and detest and devalue anyone who they know sees through their act. They have no ability for remorse or for ever changing and becoming a REAL stand up guy yet they want more than anything to make people BELIEVE that they are.
Melissa277 Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 After thinking about this a bit more, I think I've sorted out what's driving him, and it's completely in character, now that I think about it. He's always been the kind of person who saw himself as a "nice guy" - and outwardly, he was: everybody's buddy, the life of the party, the guy who made people laugh. He talked smack about people behind their backs, though, and had cheated on people before me. But somehow he managed to escape any taint - the people he screwed over forgave him, or had done reprehensible things too, or didn't take it too seriously, or whatever. Basically, he never felt accountable. (One of my friends asked me later whether I thought he was a sociopath, because he had us all so fooled. ) After I found out about his cheating on me, he started out both compartmentalizing (I didn't think about how you'd feel) and blaming me (you neglected me) - a one-two punch designed to shift the blame away - but in the end, he was forced to face a side of himself that he doesn't like and doesn't want to think is really there. Having that self image of the "nice guy" destroyed - and, even worse, having his family's image of him as the stand-up family guy shattered - is what's really bothering him here, I think. And now he wants me to give that back to him. That self-image. I think he really can't stand thinking of himself as a guy who would do all the crap he did. I'm sure he'd rather pretend it all never happened. It's so twisted. I'm not generally a grudge-holder; if he were to say to me, as Sheba suggested, that he wishes he had never done it and is sorry and hopes to live a life that makes up for it - I'd forgive him in my heart, be glad he owned up to it and accepted responsibility, and that would be that. But I guess what bugs me about this email is that he hasn't changed - just like Herzen said. He isn't planning to examine himself and think about why he did what he did. He just wants it to go away so that he can reclaim a self-image that he's comfortable with. And it's like he's asking me to shortcut that process for him, instead of doing the hard work himself. Even knowing this, I am toying with the idea of saying, "move on - I have." I think that would ease his mind, even though it's not strictly saying that it's all okay. But I think I won't. Basically, he's not part of my life now, and I don't want to reconnect. For myself, I pity him, and I suppose in a way that is forgiveness - I'm not expecting anything from him and I don't hate him. I don't think he's capable of becoming someone that I could respect more or consider friendship with, and I don't want to hold onto anger just for the sake of revenge or to hurt him. I just want to move on, and therefore I won't let him back in. I don't blame you for not wanting to let this person back in, he sounds like a real head case ... and unfortunately, most people who screw up like to pretend "it never happened" in order to shield themselves from their own demons. But in ignoring him, isn't it like acknowledging to him that he still has some weird power over you? Not power in the "power" sense, but if he's as twisted and self-involved as you say, (and I don't doubt you for a minute), don't you think he'll see it this way? I don't know, does this make any sense at all?
Herzen Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 After thinking about this a bit more, I think I've sorted out what's driving him, and it's completely in character, now that I think about it. He's always been the kind of person who saw himself as a "nice guy" - and outwardly, he was: everybody's buddy, the life of the party, the guy who made people laugh. He talked smack about people behind their backs, though, and had cheated on people before me. But somehow he managed to escape any taint - the people he screwed over forgave him, or had done reprehensible things too, or didn't take it too seriously, or whatever. Basically, he never felt accountable. (One of my friends asked me later whether I thought he was a sociopath, because he had us all so fooled. ) After I found out about his cheating on me, he started out both compartmentalizing (I didn't think about how you'd feel) and blaming me (you neglected me) - a one-two punch designed to shift the blame away - but in the end, he was forced to face a side of himself that he doesn't like and doesn't want to think is really there. Having that self image of the "nice guy" destroyed - and, even worse, having his family's image of him as the stand-up family guy shattered - is what's really bothering him here, I think. And now he wants me to give that back to him. That self-image. I think he really can't stand thinking of himself as a guy who would do all the crap he did. I'm sure he'd rather pretend it all never happened. It's so twisted. I'm not generally a grudge-holder; if he were to say to me, as Sheba suggested, that he wishes he had never done it and is sorry and hopes to live a life that makes up for it - I'd forgive him in my heart, be glad he owned up to it and accepted responsibility, and that would be that. But I guess what bugs me about this email is that he hasn't changed - just like Herzen said. He isn't planning to examine himself and think about why he did what he did. He just wants it to go away so that he can reclaim a self-image that he's comfortable with. And it's like he's asking me to shortcut that process for him, instead of doing the hard work himself. Even knowing this, I am toying with the idea of saying, "move on - I have." I think that would ease his mind, even though it's not strictly saying that it's all okay. But I think I won't. Basically, he's not part of my life now, and I don't want to reconnect. For myself, I pity him, and I suppose in a way that is forgiveness - I'm not expecting anything from him and I don't hate him. I don't think he's capable of becoming someone that I could respect more or consider friendship with, and I don't want to hold onto anger just for the sake of revenge or to hurt him. I just want to move on, and therefore I won't let him back in. Bingo! You got this man pegged. I couldn't have said it any better myself. And didn't. Let this Judas find grace elsewhere. You're not his Priest.
Lynna Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 I think you are doing the right thing in ignoring his messages. The fact that he emailed twice indicates that he IS asking for your forgiveness, but yet he can't seem to bring himself to ACTUALLY ask for it based on the way he phrased the messages. Of course, the chance is that he will continue to email you. Then you may have to respond. If it were me, even if I had already forgiven him, I would not tell him that until he actually asks for it, flat out.
Storyrider Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 I don't know...just to play devil's advocate, what if he were sincerely repentant? If you thought he was 100% sincere would you be willing to forgive him? Why or why not? Do you think that he can be absolved through a priest/God if the person he wronged doesn't forgive him? Not trying to be a trouble maker, just food for thought.
Trimmer Posted June 19, 2007 Posted June 19, 2007 I don't know...just to play devil's advocate, what if he were sincerely repentant? If you thought he was 100% sincere would you be willing to forgive him? Why or why not? As I read it, she kind of addressed this here: ...if he were to say to me, as Sheba suggested, that he wishes he had never done it and is sorry and hopes to live a life that makes up for it - I'd forgive him in my heart, be glad he owned up to it and accepted responsibility, and that would be that. Do you think that he can be absolved through a priest/God if the person he wronged doesn't forgive him? Interesting question, but I think that proposition is unfair to the wronged party. Doesn't it burden wronged parties with a responsibility to forgive, or else prevent an otherwise repentant person from absolution? Again, it turns forgiveness into something that is pulled from someone with leverage - something to get, instead of something that is offered. I think true forgiveness is something that is given freely, sometimes without even the wronged party knowing it. It is more a spiritual journey for the giver than it is a component of absolution for the recipient. The wrongdoer (for lack of a better term) has his/her own spiritual journey to undertake. Just "getting" forgiveness isn't enough. Victims sometimes find peace by forgiving - in their own hearts - their wrongdoers in situations where the wrongdoers don't yet deserve absolution because they haven't completed a journey of self-realization, growth, and change. I don't think getting forgiveness is sufficient to accomplish that goal, nor do I think it is necessary. Someone who has done wrong can learn, grow, change and become a better person without having to "get" forgiveness. Sometimes the most honorable course would be to just leave the victim alone, stay away, and move on. So forgiveness - first offered, maybe received - may be the icing on the cake, but I don't think it should be asked for (except from your God; local restrictions apply, void where prohibited...), and I don't believe that victims should be burdened with the idea that they are somehow holding things up by not offering it... Not trying to be a trouble maker, just food for thought.
Storyrider Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 I dunno. Is it her place to forgive him or not? There is a strong argument that it is. She was the one who was wronged; therefore, she has the power to forgive the personal injury she was done. As for any "sin" he committed in the process, yes, that is up to his God. I'm not saying she should feel obligated to forgive him just because he asked. However, she should consider in her heart whether she does forgive him, IMO, and answer based on that, rather than based on any power struggles or not wanting to give him the satisfaction. Either she has forgiven him, or she hasn't. Her heart will tell her what to say. I also don't agree with your statement that the offender shouldn't ask. If he doesn't ask, there is no way to know that he is repentant. Repentance comes first, then forgiveness. I am not at all trying to get preachy here. Again, just stuff to think about.
Sheba Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Trimmer, Storyrider - you are both right, I think. Absolution is not a duty that should be imposed upon the wronged. The wrongdoer might just have to figure out another way to overcome his guilt. For me, repenting must come first. I believe that I could forgive the wrongs done to me if only the wrongdoer would admit and regret. The trouble with this case, I belive, is that the wrongdoer did not write to the OP simply saying "I admit I did wrong and regret it profoundly". He tacked on his selfish little request for absolution, and put it in terms that suggest that serial muse WOULD give absolution IF she were a nice person.
Storyrider Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 and put it in terms that suggest that serial muse WOULD give absolution IF she were a nice person. Yes, if this is the case, he is pushing his luck. "The quality of mercy is not strained...etc."
Author serial muse Posted June 20, 2007 Author Posted June 20, 2007 That's exactly it, Sheba - I did feel like he was placing an obligation on me, rather than simply apologizing. And I don't think I need to accept that burden - he has framed the question a way that is most convenient for him, but I prefer to reframe it in mine. I don't think you're a troublemaker, Story , but I guess I don't entirely agree that the wronged person has an obligation to forgive...at least, there's no obligation to anyone but him- or herself. Like Trimmer said here - I think true forgiveness is something that is given freely, sometimes without even the wronged party knowing it. It is more a spiritual journey for the giver than it is a component of absolution for the recipient. I have searched my heart, and I know I'm not there yet. I have some work of my own to do, and I'm still working on forgiving myself for not being smarter/stronger/better/etc. The thing is, I think he is sincerely repentant, in his way. He is embarrassed (he said as much in his email), and I’m sure he feels sorry that he hurt me. But is he a different man now, as a result of this? Would he do it again? I think it’s possible he’ll never do such a thing again (although he did, as I mentioned above, have a history of cheating). But I also think that that is because this is the first time he had to take the fall for his actions, and it clearly stung. That’s a lesson learned, in a way, but it’s a simple lesson any child could learn – fire burns! – rather than a deeper, more soul-searching kind of lesson about empathy and causing harm...the kind of lesson a person takes in so deeply that they will choose to recall it, will choose to access it, even in moments of pure anger or pure lust. I do not see that in him, and I don't know if it'll ever happen. He is far too afraid to be honest with himself...hence why he asked me to release him from his embarrassment, rather than walking through it and accepting it. He wrote that he didn't know where to put his face - four years later - and I don't doubt it. He can't face himself, and I can't do that for him. But I think I will come to a point of true, benign forgiveness someday - and I'm glad of it. It will come when I am able to accept that whether or not he will ever move beyond this point, I do not need to have emotions about it - and that I am able to remove myself from any desire for any different outcome than what is. But as it is, I still want to feel like it meant something, and that is the last, most resistant barrier to true forgiveness. I was a bit too flippant about saying that it’s between him and his God, but what I should have said – what I feel, at the moment – is that if forgiveness is what he wants, he should figure out how to live a life that is less selfish and more empathetic, in which he takes full responsibility for his past and chooses to turn that into something positive in the future. Then he could really forgive himself. And that is what would make me feel happy now, like my pain was worth something, particularly if it perhaps saved someone else future pain. But that need for meaning is also keeping me from fully letting go. It will happen someday, I'm sure. But it hasn't happened yet. And until it does, I won't lie for him or to him; my healing is going on internally, and that's where it'll stay. But in ignoring him, isn't it like acknowledging to him that he still has some weird power over you? Not power in the "power" sense, but if he's as twisted and self-involved as you say, (and I don't doubt you for a minute), don't you think he'll see it this way? I don't know, does this make any sense at all? I did wonder what message my replying, or not replying, would send - and yeah, I’m not crazy about the idea that he might feel like he can still get to me. But, sigh…if it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t, then I might as well do what I’d prefer to do anyway.
Storyrider Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 I don't think you're a troublemaker, Story , but I guess I don't entirely agree that the wronged person has an obligation to forgive...at least, there's no obligation to anyone but him- or herself. I have searched my heart, and I know I'm not there yet. I have some work of my own to do, and I'm still working on forgiving myself for not being smarter/stronger/better/etc. The thing is, I think he is sincerely repentant, in his way. He is embarrassed (he said as much in his email), and I’m sure he feels sorry that he hurt me. But is he a different man now, as a result of this? Would he do it again? The sticking point for me was the idea that you might dismiss his request without considering it, simply to hurt him. But based on the above, you have done what (I believe) is ethically required; you asked yourself whether he is sincere and whether you are ready to forgive him, and the answer is no. As your LS friend, I can live with that.
Author serial muse Posted June 20, 2007 Author Posted June 20, 2007 Thanks. And thanks to everyone on the thread for helping me work this out for myself; talking it out has really helped me understand my own feelings better. Y'all rock. :bunny:
Herzen Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Thanks. And thanks to everyone on the thread for helping me work this out for myself; talking it out has really helped me understand my own feelings better. Y'all rock. :bunny: Thank-you. Your issue was heart felt, very interesting and well presented.
Mr. Lucky Posted June 20, 2007 Posted June 20, 2007 Late to the dance here, but I had a similar conversation with my exW. Ten years after our divorce and 6 years into my 2nd (happy!) marriage. I gave her half and half - told her that here was nothing she could say to me that would change my regard for her as the mother of our son OR my disregard for her as a person. She never brought it up again... Mr. Lucky
Recommended Posts