whichwayisup Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 Funny thing is, a wife owes it not only to her children, but to herself and her marriage vows to try until there no other option BUT to separate/divorce, so there IS an obligation. The OW has NO real ties or obligation to stay and put up with the crap MM feeds her. Other than an emotional/sexual bond, there's no real history, no real sharing of their lives that is honest and open to the rest of the world. DISCLAIMER: This isn't about any OW on here, I'm generalizing and hoping that maybe an OW who is on their way OUT of an affair will see this as a positive, a reality check and help her make the transition of leaving easier...
mustbcrazy Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 I wouldn't call the BS a "fool" for forgiving. I do, however, think that a relationship has to be held to certain standards. In other words, there are some things that are deal-breakers. In my mind, cheating is one of them. Having been a BS myself (and now an OW...I know, I'm the fool), I know that there is NO WAY I could have forgiven my ex-H. Every situation and every person is different. I know that my ex would have lost respect for me if I had "forgiven" him and that he would have done it again.
whichwayisup Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 ITA with you! Yeah it took me about 5 minutes () to figure out what ITA meant. Duh!!!
Author silktricks Posted June 14, 2007 Author Posted June 14, 2007 Quote from Smartgirl on the "are you better looking than W" thread: I meant the for better or worse part of my vows. I at least owe my marriage the chance for recovery because it was a great relationship and marriage for the 31 years before this woman came into the picture. Because he is willing to repent and put the work in, I am willing to work on forgiving him. Getting over the pain is the single hardest thing I have ever had to do, but that would be true even if he was no longer in the picture. I think that under the circumstances Smartgirl describes, W is absolutely no fool at all. And that in a nutshell is why most BS who forgive are hurt when we are then accused of being foolish. SG is a very smarthurl indeed and explains well how many of is feel. Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to look up the actual definition of "fool" here it is: fool Pronunciation: 'fül Function: noun 1 : a person lacking in judgment or prudence Well, in many cases including my case where W continues to be married to my xMM who has cheated on her for years and continued to lie to her after D-day, I would have to say that yes, she lacks judgment and is a fool. She knows she is married to a cheater but refuses to see him for what he really is and this makes her a fool. I think the key here how MM acts after D-day. If his life becomes an open book and the lies and cheating stop then W is smart to keep him around and their M is probably better for it. Exactly! When a orson makes a stupid mistake, and does something which is completely out of character, then if they show they both want and deserve forgiveness, then to not forgive seems far more foolish than to forgive. Not everyone can forgive, though, and that is sad, too.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 Funny thing is, a wife owes it not only to her children, but to herself and her marriage vows to try until there no other option BUT to separate/divorce, so there IS an obligation. I would also add extended families and friends to that. I took my vows seriously, I never expected things to be perfect or easy or go my way all of the time. I also never expected that he didn't feel the same way about things. I consider this a "god given" responsibility. Does that make me a fool, heck no, he made the choice he's the fool. It hasn't changed me, but made me stronger in my convictions and WHO I am, I have learned much about myself and alot I didn't want to know about him! The OW has NO real ties or obligation to stay and put up with the crap MM feeds her. Other than an emotional/sexual bond, there's no real history, no real sharing of their lives that is honest and open to the rest of the world. Exactly, and I don't know why this might need a disclaimer. This is simply a FACT. THIS MARRIAGE AND MY FAMILY ARE MY LIFE, ok maybe not the perfect life but I made an personal commitment to it and whether someone else (WH) doesn't take it seriously doesn't mean that I do not, doesn't change my stance on MY LIFE and how devoted I am to my family. His actions caused his place in my heart and my life to change, I grieved that for a very long time but have finally accepted it. His loss actually whether he cares or not. Tough Tits, that's what I got, through no choice of my own. It will not change who I am though, which is dedicated, selfless, loyal to a fault, and only now undependant on another person for my happiness. That last part was the gift I got out of this. My silver lining! I believe that the attitude though that a MM cheats because something is wrong in the marriage is held mostly by people who need to blame shift, its kinda like saying, "well my tire was flat so I had to steal that car". In any marriage where two people are working at sooo many things that seem so important at the moment, careers, family, home maintenance, history projects, ect... it is easy to become complacent but THAT is expected in marriage, if one person is unhappy they certainly have the opportunity to fix it or to leave, cheating though, says so much more about the cheater than it does about the marriage. What they think of themselves (entitled) and what they think of OW and BS (deserving of their misuse or abuse). Is the wife a fool for fighting for her life? I really don't think so, even in my situation, its not me that anyone thinks is the fool, not the people that matter in my life and love me. Who is really the fool... the man that threw that all away.
whichwayisup Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 Yes, an OW who ends things with a MM, it hurts her. She misses MM and how he made her feel, that's it!! A wife who ends the marriage due to a cheating spouse has ALOT to give up, good point about family, inlaws and friends - ALL of which are entwined into the life MM and his wife have created together. OW and MM are based on selfish feelings, sex, lust and dishonesty. How can it be compared to what a MM has with his wife? .. It just can't. Yes, the MM is the fool. Or a MW, depending on who the cheater is.
PoshPrincess Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 [Who is really the fool... the man that threw that all away. Almost always! However, I feel that if an MM chooses to stay in an unhappy M for the wrong reasons, if he seriously believes that he can never be happy with his W and that he truly loves his OW, then he is also a fool. But that's just MO. This is because I don't believe in 'staying for the sake of the kids' and I believe that we all have a right to be happy. Sadly sometimes this IS at the expense of someone else. SilkTricks: Thanks for enquiring about my well-being. I'm not too bad thanks. Am in a new R with SG at the mo but not sure if it's the right thing to do. Long story which I have posted at some time or other. Slowly trying to get over MM. Have a new therapist who I feel I am getting more out of. I know I will get there in the end but it does seem to be taking a lot longer to get over things than I thought it would.
BurriedAlive Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 So I guess the feeling is unanimous - the biggest fool of all is the MM!!!
bish Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 There has been a lot of discussion on another very long thread about the BS. I obviously do not think I was a fool for forgiving my husband, but the implication has been made many times that the BS is a fool. So feel free to give your opinion! I think the BS might be a fool if you COMPLETELY forgive. To me, completely forgiving means dropping your guard and putting 100% trust back in them. To me, 100% trust is not possible. People may say they trust 100% again, but be honest. If you have a problem with a cheater doing things they use to do when cheating, then you haven't developed 100% trust. So I think you can forgive, but not so much that you are being played for a fool. Never let your guard down and don't be a doormat.
bish Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 I also feel that, often, the BS has a lot to do with the cheating. Thats it, blame the BS. Its their fault. I guess the cheaters don't have a will of their own.
Tomcat33 Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 I think the BS might be a fool if you COMPLETELY forgive. To me, completely forgiving means dropping your guard and putting 100% trust back in them. To me, 100% trust is not possible. People may say they trust 100% again, but be honest. If you have a problem with a cheater doing things they use to do when cheating, then you haven't developed 100% trust. So I think you can forgive, but not so much that you are being played for a fool. Never let your guard down and don't be a doormat. thank you very much for this statement this is EXACTLY my sentiment and what I have said all along but for some reason people TWIST my words around and make me out to say something I HAVE NOT SAID! What I have been saying all along is you would have to be FOOLISH to trust 100% again, to think that a cheater will NEVER lie to you again. Notice the words "NEVER and 100%" and how the word FOOLISH modifies them? I don't even think people should trust `100% even before a betrayal exists. To me trusting 100% is letting down your guard. trusting 99.9% is leaving room for possibility that it could happen, and what this does is it keeps one on their toes to try their best to work hard enough to keep the rel. on track so that there is no room for the 1% to happen. Because let's face it available single people will ALWAYS be out there for us or our partners to become attracted to. The question is how we (as in the two people in the rel.) are willing to let your rels go (especially when you see it is slipping through your fingers) in order to allow what's on the outside suddenly to become more appealing than what you have at home. And I am not talking about a sexual fling I am talking about a full on lengthy A that involves a lot of time and vested emotions. Furthermore, when a cheater decides to stay and work on the marriage a lot of untruths or half-truths are told about the OW within the "tell-all" part of the comming clean in order to lessen the blow of what has already been done. It's the very people that say "why would you (OW) believe everything the married man tells the OW about the problems with the marriage/wife afterall he is lying to the W to be with you? Fair assessment no? So I would like to turn the tables around and ask, how could you now believe everything your H tells you about the OW if he was willing to decieve you, hide this long drawn out A from you for such an extended period of time, tell her initmate things about you, about your rel about your marriage. HOW COULD YOU beleive everything he tells you about the OW or even how he actually felt about her and how much of it was his doing as far as who pursued whom etc? To trust everything he says after the fact THAT TO ME IS FOOLISH. To take his word for gospel, knowing that he is 100% capable of lying TO YOU, that to me is foolish. Now to take everything in stride and to pick and choose what you want to take in about his confession THAT TO ME IS far smarter than to just take it all in. And given some of what I read on here sometimes, some people just choose to take it all in (on both ends of the spectrum of course) Ok hope my stance is clear!
shellys-trying Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 Like so many have already said, it all depends. If a man was good enough for a well-adjusted woman to marry in the first place, he's probably good enough to work things out with. If the marriage was going to break apart anyway, with or without the involvement of another woman, then obviously best to move on. The OW is just a symptom of something that needs to be fixed within the relationship, in my opinon. I'm not saying it excuses dicking around, of course. But it does seem that its often the thing that makes the couple address their problems. I can agree with this. I've always provided H and our kids with love and support and I think H didn't think about that thru the yrs before the A. He took it for granted and it wasn't a big deal. Now, when he dicked around(thanks for the word, Ripples) he had to look all that love and support in the face. he had to actually look at it and see it was at risk for being taken away, and I believe he slowly came to his senses. Slowly, yes, but he did. He'd never had those emotions from his own family before, the support the caring that we, his W & kids, showed him. I believe it was an eye opener.
shellys-trying Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 So I guess the feeling is unanimous - the biggest fool of all is the MM!!! No, he gets the BIGGEST JACKASS award. For thinking he can have 2 women.
shellys-trying Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 thank you very much for this statement this is EXACTLY my sentiment and what I have said all along but for some reason people TWIST my words around and make me out to say something I HAVE NOT SAID! What I have been saying all along is you would have to be FOOLISH to trust 100% again, to think that a cheater will NEVER lie to you again. Notice the words "NEVER and 100%" and how the word FOOLISH modifies them? I don't even think people should trust `100% even before a betrayal exists. To me trusting 100% is letting down your guard. trusting 99.9% is leaving room for possibility that it could happen, and what this does is it keeps one on their toes to try their best to work hard enough to keep the rel. on track so that there is no room for the 1% to happen. Because let's face it available single people will ALWAYS be out there for us or our partners to become attracted to. The question is how we (as in the two people in the rel.) are willing to let your rels go (especially when you see it is slipping through your fingers) in order to allow what's on the outside suddenly to become more appealing than what you have at home. And I am not talking about a sexual fling I am talking about a full on lengthy A that involves a lot of time and vested emotions. Furthermore, when a cheater decides to stay and work on the marriage a lot of untruths or half-truths are told about the OW within the "tell-all" part of the comming clean in order to lessen the blow of what has already been done. It's the very people that say "why would you (OW) believe everything the married man tells the OW about the problems with the marriage/wife afterall he is lying to the W to be with you? Fair assessment no? So I would like to turn the tables around and ask, how could you now believe everything your H tells you about the OW if he was willing to decieve you, hide this long drawn out A from you for such an extended period of time, tell her initmate things about you, about your rel about your marriage. HOW COULD YOU beleive everything he tells you about the OW or even how he actually felt about her and how much of it was his doing as far as who pursued whom etc? To trust everything he says after the fact THAT TO ME IS FOOLISH. To take his word for gospel, knowing that he is 100% capable of lying TO YOU, that to me is foolish. Now to take everything in stride and to pick and choose what you want to take in about his confession THAT TO ME IS far smarter than to just take it all in. And given some of what I read on here sometimes, some people just choose to take it all in (on both ends of the spectrum of course) Ok hope my stance is clear! I trust H 100% that he won't ever cheat on me again. EVER. I trust H 100% that he won't lie about some tramp coming on to him. I believe he will tell me when/if it happens. And not in a few days,weeks or months after the fact, either. I trust H 100% that he won't come on to any tramp. I trust H to be a good & faithful H for the rest of my & his life. 100% Am I a fool for feeling this way? Not in my book. I believe in second chances. I'm willing to take the risk.
Ripples Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 Shelly, I tend to think that if a couple can get through an infidelity, their relationship will be stronger than ever, certainly not the same as before, and you wouldn't want that! But even better. So, yes, I believe you when you say you can trust your H 100% because you've both learnt how to make your marriage an even better place to be for both of you. It's a crying shame that it took so much pain, but the saying what does not kill us makes us stronger, rings very true in these scenarios.
Tomcat33 Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 I trust H 100% that he won't ever cheat on me again. EVER. I trust H 100% that he won't lie about some tramp coming on to him. I believe he will tell me when/if it happens. And not in a few days,weeks or months after the fact, either. I trust H 100% that he won't come on to any tramp. I trust H to be a good & faithful H for the rest of my & his life. 100% Am I a fool for feeling this way? Not in my book. I believe in second chances. I'm willing to take the risk. Do you trust 100% he won't come on to another woman? or that he will tell you if another woman makes passes at him? In other words you trust him blindly?
whichwayisup Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 how could you now believe everything your H tells you about the OW if he was willing to decieve you, hide this long drawn out A from you for such an extended period of time, tell her initmate things about you, about your rel about your marriage. HOW COULD YOU beleive everything he tells you about the OW or even how he actually felt about her and how much of it was his doing as far as who pursued whom etc? To trust everything he says after the fact THAT TO ME IS FOOLISH. To take his word for gospel, knowing that he is 100% capable of lying TO YOU, that to me is foolish. I think it all depends on not only words, but the actions of the person who cheated, if they are showing how sorry they are, how full of regret they are due to cheating. It takes two to mend the marriage, not just the person who cheated. Sure, the betrayed spouse sooner or later has to get to the point of wanting to trust again. If that doesn't happen, the marriage will fail. Not all MM cheat continually after DDay and go looking for ANOTHER OW. Many unforunately cheat but are lucky enough to have a spouse who will give them a second chance. If a MM cheats again, he's an idiot for taking advantage and deserves to be thrown out on his bum-bum. Am I a fool for feeling this way? Not in my book. I believe in second chances. I'm willing to take the risk. Hell no! You're not a fool at all. Just shows what type of person you are, to allow a second chance, to allow him to make things right, to prove that HE can be trustworthy again. You've chosen to make it work and by choosing this, you gotta trust! Otherwise there's no point.
shellys-trying Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 Shelly, I tend to think that if a couple can get through an infidelity, their relationship will be stronger than ever, certainly not the same as before, and you wouldn't want that! But even better. So, yes, I believe you when you say you can trust your H 100% because you've both learnt how to make your marriage an even better place to be for both of you. It's a crying shame that it took so much pain, but the saying what does not kill us makes us stronger, rings very true in these scenarios. Yeah, it is a shame there even had to be an A. On my part, I know we could have become what we are now, without the A happening, but that's water under the bridge and I said that to myself for a long time. "Why couldn't he just change before the A happened..." It's a big waste of time to look at it that way. You waste your life doing that. I just got tired of wasting my time with that question. The A didn't kill me. I'm still alive, and I can be happy if I want to be. I want to be. With him.
shellys-trying Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 Do you trust 100% he won't come on to another woman? or that he will tell you if another woman makes passes at him? In other words you trust him blindly? You need to look at it any way you want to. I know what I mean. That's all that matters.
Tomcat33 Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 I think it all depends on not only words, but the actions of the person who cheated, if they are showing how sorry they are, how full of regret they are due to cheating. It takes two to mend the marriage, not just the person who cheated. Sure, the betrayed spouse sooner or later has to get to the point of wanting to trust again. If that doesn't happen, the marriage will fail. you gotta trust! Otherwise there's no point. I totally agree with the first part of the post. And even with the last sentence because you choose to work on the m after the betrayal it has to come from both sides. As the BP do you trust blindly though? Trusting 100% is trusting blindly, it's having beyond the shaddow of a doubt the certainty the person will never in any way shape or form lie about having feelings or being with another human being in any way again. In all honesty I don't think it's even possible to have 100% of anything let alone 100% trust for someone after they have deceived you. IT's so extreme to even try to say one can pull it off, well at least to me it wreaks of foolishness. 100%!! You'd have to be superhuman NOT to think "hmmmmmm things are going really well and he has won the trust back I wonder if he will try to pull it off again?" Ok an on the flip side, if the argument is you CAN trust blindly after an A then there is absolutely NO reason at ALL why any person should think OW who gets involved with cheaters will have them do it to them after because once a cheater always a cheater.
shellys-trying Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 I think it all depends on not only words, but the actions of the person who cheated, if they are showing how sorry they are, how full of regret they are due to cheating. It takes two to mend the marriage, not just the person who cheated. Sure, the betrayed spouse sooner or later has to get to the point of wanting to trust again. If that doesn't happen, the marriage will fail. Not all MM cheat continually after DDay and go looking for ANOTHER OW. Many unforunately cheat but are lucky enough to have a spouse who will give them a second chance. If a MM cheats again, he's an idiot for taking advantage and deserves to be thrown out on his bum-bum. {I believe I have one of those exceptions. I see how different he is now than how he was even when we first M, up till he cheated. He is a different man.} Hell no! You're not a fool at all. Just shows what type of person you are, to allow a second chance, to allow him to make things right, to prove that HE can be trustworthy again. You've chosen to make it work and by choosing this, you gotta trust! Otherwise there's no point. {So right! If I continued and sat on my 'victim' seat, where would we be? I'm not a victim of being cheated on, I'm a survivor.}
Tomcat33 Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 You need to look at it any way you want to. I know what I mean. That's all that matters. Trusting 100% = trusting blindly. There are no two ways of looking at it. Trusting blindly = foolisheness
shellys-trying Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 Ok an on the flip side, if the argument is you CAN trust blindly after an A then there is absolutely NO reason at ALL why any person should think OW who gets involved with cheaters will have them do it to them after because once a cheater always a cheater. I don't worry about my H having that label on him, the "once a cheater always a cheater" doesn't and won't apply. I have faith and confidence in him.
shellys-trying Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 Trusting 100% = trusting blindly. There are no two ways of looking at it. Trusting blindly = foolisheness In my marriage's case, I take that as a compliment. Whether it was meant as one or not. I don't care what you think, TC. You became a fool yourself for even having an A with a MM. With all the guys in the world and you ent for someone else's? What were you thinking? Trusting blindly, perhaps?
whichwayisup Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 TC, noone is actually saying they trust 100% blindly here, but I think being cautious at times is a good thing. You'd have to be superhuman NOT to think "hmmmmmm things are going really well and he has won the trust back I wonder if he will try to pull it off again?" Recognizing triggers, negative thoughts and fears are all stinkin' thinkin', just like what I learned when dealing with my anxiety disorder, one can apply it in this situation as well. Keeping things in perspective and having faith. Just take a read at Thumbingmyway's threads. That man went through hell and back, and still after EVERYTHING his wife put him through, he has faith, trust and love inside of him he's willing to still share with his wife. If two people want to make it work, it WILL work. Positive thinking, good energy and faith goes a long way.
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