White lies and jealousy

[luvstarved]

Getting ready for another counseling session...thinking about my side of the issues, one of which lately has been jealousy. Trying to understand where it came from, and how much is too much and how much is legitimate concern, etc.

 

I have always been a little jealous but lately more so...I finally figured out that it really started up about a year ago, when my H's sister came over and confessed that she had an affair. My H's VEHEMENT reaction was that you NEVER NEVER tell the spouse.

 

I was SHOCKED. I always had him pegged as the could-not-live-with-the-guilt and would be seen right through type. After almost 10 years, what a dope!

 

I've been hypervigilant since then and no evidence whatsoever of wrongdoing, but the catch-22 is that since then I have also noticed that my H just easily spews white lies and seems to have no conscience about it. When he is caught redhanded, he either continues to lie or excuses it as he HAD to lie because I couldn't handle the truth (would get angry or jealous, etc).

 

I have TRIED to tell him that at this point it is the lies that are really pissing me off because they are a barrier to any attempts we try to make toward intimacy. But it continues on...

 

EX: We were going to the gym. I had put on about 10 pounds over the winter so a particular pair of gym pants were a bit tight. Him: Are you going to wear those? Me: Why? Do they look funny? Him: No they look fine. Me: Well then why did you ask? Him: No reason, they look fine. Me: Well they might be a little tight since the last time I wore them. Him: Yeah they're really way too tight. Me: Well why didn't you just say so? I hate that you won't just come out and tell me the truth. Him: I DID tell you the truth and see, now it is making you mad!

 

Or, "I very rarely masturbate" Or, "I never interact with that woman at work" Or, "I don't know how your black panties ended up in the back of my drawer" Or, "That woman I just spoke to, that's Jackie. She's married to an old HS friend of mine" (whose name he can't remember) Or, "The porn just showed up on the screen, I did NOT seek it out" and on and on...always with the same "I knew you'd be mad if..."

 

I know there must be guys out in the crowd who have done this same thing, as it is practically a comic stereotype ("do these pants make me look fat?"), so I am asking...if you DO participate in this white lie crap like my H, what can you imagine your W could do to get you to STOP IT!!!!!! I mean, yes, I realize that the truth also can hurt feelings and expose anger, but SO DO THE LIES, so which is better? I am not talking about brutal honesty about everything, just that these damn too-easy white lies that are not necessary make me feel generally mistrustful of him, even though I know that at least so far there isn't anything big to mistrust him for.

 

The way I feel, if he would cut the s**t and get real, then maybe I would here and there get pissed about the truth, but not EVERY TIME like I do with the lies, and anyway, then isn't that MY problem if I can't "handle it"?

 

Grrrr...guys, please, tell me how I can get him to stop this.

[dbtmarley]

OK, his comment about not telling a spouse they cheated was stupid on his part. Does it mean he practices what he preaches? It may, but then again it may not. Us guys have a lot to learn when it comes to small talk. We will stick our foot so far down our throat and look at our wives to pull it out. Was this the case here? Of course not, but it was idiotic on his part. Did you call him on it? I would have right there on the spot, right in front of his cheating sister!

 

Reading the other parts of your story I gather that you are not a very trusting person and I also sense that you are a little insecure. Your husband seems a little insensitive which only makes your issues worse and in turn it causes these kind of problems to just get worse, ie.. You started getting worse when he made the cheater comment.

 

Oh boy!! Did you ever set him up with the quote below:

 

EX: We were going to the gym. I had put on about 10 pounds over the winter so a particular pair of gym pants were a bit tight. Him: Are you going to wear those? Me: Why? Do they look funny? Him: No they look fine. Me: Well then why did you ask? Him: No reason, they look fine. Me: Well they might be a little tight since the last time I wore them. Him: Yeah they're really way too tight. Me: Well why didn't you just say so? I hate that you won't just come out and tell me the truth. Him: I DID tell you the truth and see, now it is making you mad!

 

I hope to hell I never back myself in the corner with my wife. The whole shorts thing was headed down the road to destruction for him... and you knew it didn't you? If he would have said," I like the black ones on you" you most likely would have said ,"WTF DO THE WHITE ONES MAKE ME LOOK FAT!?!?!?!"

 

He was screwed!!

 

 

As far as the porn is concerned.... c'mon see through his sh&t!! You busted him and he is embarrassed. Does it excuse him from lying hell no, but realize this, do you have a problem with him looking at porn? If you do have a problem with him looking at porn and he happens to enjoy it, it may lead him to telling a "white lie".

 

"I very rarely masturbate"

 

No excuse to lie, but once again he is probably embarrassed and you most likely don't want him doing that. How is your sex life? At this point I would bet it is safe for me to assume it is lacking and if it is you are both partly to blame for the resentment causing it.

 

 

"I never interact with that woman at work"

 

 

Is there more behind this? Did he cheat on you with her? If not then WTF?!?! Remember you are not his mother.

 

 

You seem insecure with yourself and this is causing you to be insecure with your relationship, unless of course there is something you are leaving out.

 

There is one thing that concerns me though. It's this "I don't know how your black panties ended up in my drawer". Which leads me to the following questions:

 

1.Do you do his laundry?

 

2. Are his underwear folded?

 

3.Do the panties look worn? trying not to laugh sorry......

 

 

Seriously though... In my opinion you are being highly insecure and who or what has caused it is not important right now. The two of you are in a cause and effect type deal now... Who is the cause and who is the effect is not even important right now. What is important is that the two of you sit down and have a good talk... WITH A LOT OF LISTENING from both sides. Both of you seem to have a total communication break down. Maybe the counselor is necessary for this... I don't know.

 

Listen I am not saying that you are totally to blame her and he is not right for telling the "white lie".... but I also think the truth would have hurt you also and that of course would have just led to resentment.

 

You two are at the point where you are just feeding off each other and that is just not right... The two of you need to really sit down and listen to each other.. I hope the counseling goes well.

 

 

Thomas

(Who wonders if luv is leaving something out)

[Sheba]

I know where you are coming from, of course, luvstarved. I am willing to guess that it is a combination of some insecurity on your part and living with a man who has made you feel worthless to him due to his anger issues.

 

I know that I have felt that my husband does not love me because of the things he says when he is angry. That, combined with his flirting and my insecurity is a recipe for constant worry. If you throw some lying into the mix - well, it is a disaster, isn't it?

 

My husband has also said that a person should "never admit". Those words have haunted me like your husband's remark has haunted you.

 

We are working on the anger issue and the "flirting" issue with our counsellor. As for the insecurity, I try to work on that by myself. I try to bring myself up short when I am being purely imaginative, like the meaning of the "rule against admissions" - we don't know that they have a thing to admit/lie about, do we? It is strictly imaginative to think they do.

 

I think that you, like me, have enough real problems that we should not get caught up in imaginary ones. We need to try to resist inventing issues.

 

White lies about how shorts fit should be ignored, I think. Anyone might do that to save the feelings of someone they care about. The panties and the porn - well those could be bigger issues since they tie in with the "luvstarved" and are worth exploring with your counsellor. I would also discuss that comment about affairs with the counsellor. Thomas may be right - it could be meaningless - but your husband should reassure you if that is the case. He should also be told that your marriage is too fragile to withstand "little lies" (or big ones!) and he needs to avoid that childish habit.

 

I do want to ask the same question as Thomas about the woman at work...what is the issue there?

[StayClose]

How do you tend to react to minor infractions in general? Do you get very angry?

 

I've read that "people who have nothing to hide hide nothing," but I've found that not to be true for people with spouses who explode over minor things.

[luvstarved]

OK, his comment about not telling a spouse they cheated was stupid on his part... Did you call him on it? I would have right there on the spot, right in front of his cheating sister!

 

Yes I said I was shocked and that it made me wonder whether I should be worried.

 

Reading the other parts of your story I gather that you are not a very trusting person and I also sense that you are a little insecure. Your husband seems a little insensitive which only makes your issues worse and in turn it causes these kind of problems to just get worse, ie.. You started getting worse when he made the cheater comment.

 

Well we went through long sexless phase during which he gave every rationalization under the sun, often contradictory, but never would REALLY talk about it (we just don't have time, I would like to lead a celibate life, guys at the gym say wives won't do this or that, you're not nice enough to me, sex is just not important to me - meanwhile, looking at porn and masturbating frequently and totally denying doing so) We have improved there I guess as sex came back gradually on my insistence and quality is slowly improving but he still won't talk openly about it so I find myself wondering what he's really thinking and not being able to break down the wall just exacerbates the lack of trust - along with the white lies.

 

As far as the porn is concerned.... c'mon see through his sh&t!! You busted him and he is embarrassed. Does it excuse him from lying hell no, but realize this, do you have a problem with him looking at porn? If you do have a problem with him looking at porn and he happens to enjoy it, it may lead him to telling a "white lie".

 

The porn issue was him indulging IN LIEU of having sex with me while at the same time saying it was awful and he wasn't doing it and pretending that he was above sexual needs and implying that I was somehow "primitive" or "shallow" by having them. I admit I have never admired the porn thing, but I have accepted it in past relationships when it wasn't excessive or super secretive.

 

 

"I never interact with that woman at work"

 

 

Is there more behind this? Did he cheat on you with her? If not then WTF?!?! Remember you are not his mother.

 

She is attractive blonde, just divorced when she started there, younger, lives less than 2 miles from the work place, goes out on day trips for work with my H, on day one revealed her whole romantic history, is very "touchy feely", has almost identical professional background as H. Soon after she started, H went in with the white lies and contradictions about her...but also did things that suggested the attraction (blew me off on a lunch date because of her, toyed with idea of transferring to her dept, implied that I didn't understand his job at all after years of valuing my input on it, saying it would be so nice to be with someone who worked at the same place, picked fights with me and I would find out later it was because she "ignored him", etc). So occasionally something like this still comes up but he white lies because I am irrationally jealous. Footnote is that he admitted that the other two wives of his male coworkers also have a big problem with this woman. I know there is nothing actually going on, but it is still an irritant to know that he is with her all day.

 

 

You seem insecure with yourself and this is causing you to be insecure with your relationship, unless of course there is something you are leaving out.

 

He is also emotionally abusive, has huge anger issues and in total denial about them. One day he loves me, the next he would be SO GONE if not for our daughter. He says I am unkind and unsupportive and difficult. He tells me what I am thinking and insists that he is right. He tells me I am emotionally disturbed and what I SHOULD be doing, etc. When I try to talk to him, he discounts my feelings entirely. He has ALWAYS told me what I am thinking and when I say he is wrong, he just tells me I am delusional, etc.

 

The counselor today told him that he was blatantly abusive and grandiose and needed to quit diagnosing me and blaming me for everything and start listening to me and validating me. The counselor is now full of ****, apparently. Even when it was all explained to H (and it was a lot nicer than I just said it) he immediately responded with what a prince he was and reciting a litany of all the wrongs I have done over the years. He told the counselor he disagreed with his assessment. The counselor told him that he just didn't get it. Mind you the counselor also said that I have some passive aggressive stuff going on, which I am willing to cop to, but H's flat refusal to accept that maybe he has work to do, too, is seriously discouraging.

There is one thing that concerns me though. It's this "I don't know how your black panties ended up in my drawer". Which leads me to the following questions:

 

1.Do you do his laundry?

 

2. Are his underwear folded?

 

3.Do the panties look worn? trying not to laugh sorry......

 

Well it is funny, I discovered this early in the sexual renewal phase when I was just looking to borrow a t-shirt. He had ALL my black panties hidden away in there (I didn't pay much attention because socks and underwear have always disappeared on me) and I was both hurt and amused to think my underwear was sexier than me. BUT I did sort of ask and he just said "I have no idea!"

 

 

 

Listen I am not saying that you are totally to blame her and he is not right for telling the "white lie".... but I also think the truth would have hurt you also and that of course would have just led to resentment.

 

You two are at the point where you are just feeding off each other and that is just not right... The two of you need to really sit down and listen to each other.. I hope the counseling goes well.

 

YES you are so right and I much appreciate your input. I agree that I have to somehow prove I can "handle the truth" to get the white lies to go away but I am not sure how to do that. Trying desperately to open the lines but as I said very discouraged today. Even after counselor told him clearly that he was guilty of "mind reading", didn't H leave and proceed to tell me what the counselor was REALLY thinking? Argh!

 

 

Thomas

(Who wonders if luv is leaving something out)

 

 

Well I am sure that fleshed things out a bit! Though God knows there is more... Sigh...

[luvstarved]

How do you tend to react to minor infractions in general? Do you get very angry?

 

I've read that "people who have nothing to hide hide nothing," but I've found that not to be true for people with spouses who explode over minor things.

 

I never really did before, but I am hypersensitive to the lying now and so I admit that sometimes I have a strong anger reaction when it happens, especially when it is SO BLEEDING OBVIOUS and/or UNSOLICITED. I KNOW that I do this and that it just makes things worse but I just don't know how to break the cycle.

[luvstarved]

I know where you are coming from, of course, luvstarved. I am willing to guess that it is a combination of some insecurity on your part and living with a man who has made you feel worthless to him due to his anger issues.

 

I know that I have felt that my husband does not love me because of the things he says when he is angry. That, combined with his flirting and my insecurity is a recipe for constant worry. If you throw some lying into the mix - well, it is a disaster, isn't it?

 

My husband has also said that a person should "never admit". Those words have haunted me like your husband's remark has haunted you.

 

We are working on the anger issue and the "flirting" issue with our counsellor. As for the insecurity, I try to work on that by myself. I try to bring myself up short when I am being purely imaginative, like the meaning of the "rule against admissions" - we don't know that they have a thing to admit/lie about, do we? It is strictly imaginative to think they do.

 

I think that you, like me, have enough real problems that we should not get caught up in imaginary ones. We need to try to resist inventing issues.

 

White lies about how shorts fit should be ignored, I think. Anyone might do that to save the feelings of someone they care about. The panties and the porn - well those could be bigger issues since they tie in with the "luvstarved" and are worth exploring with your counsellor. I would also discuss that comment about affairs with the counsellor. Thomas may be right - it could be meaningless - but your husband should reassure you if that is the case. He should also be told that your marriage is too fragile to withstand "little lies" (or big ones!) and he needs to avoid that childish habit.

 

I do want to ask the same question as Thomas about the woman at work...what is the issue there?

 

Sheba, our stories are so similar!!! MOST of the issues with the white lies and secrecy have to do with our sex life and his interactions with other women in general.

 

One thing that happens a lot - and this is probably typical in our circumstance - is women will be very flirtatious with him IN MY PRESENCE in a way that sometimes seems directed more at me than him. Our circumstance is that while I am objectively speaking sturdily attractive, he is by all accounts gorgeous and when some women see that discrepancy for some reason they want to rub their relative physical superiority in my face. H SWEARS that this only happens when I am around and he is hip to the phenomenon but how do I really know? We were just on a trip to DC and a very beautiful woman at a ballgame insinuated herself next to him and at one point was LEANING ON HIS SHOULDER, giggly, etc!!!! I don't know what's up with women who do that, but it certainly doesn't help the situation. I know that stuff is not his fault but I have in the past gotten mad at him over it. We talked about this incident this time and I put the blame on her as I should (it was a more elaborate incident than I am telling here, very blatant) so I guess that is progress but...there is just a lot at play here to crank up my insecurity...beyond the pointed flirtations, I just see the "eye contact dance" between him and women a lot...he has a "tell" (like in poker when you can tell when someone is bluffing) when he finds a woman attractive - another part of my issue is seeing the 'tell' and the fact that the 'tell' is never directed at me anymore (sustained eye contact and a specific crooked smile is the 'tell')

 

So yeah OK I am jealous as hell. But...all things considered, who wouldn't be? Counselor today said the standard thing about being responsible for your own feelings and nobody "making" you feel a certain way and I was like, well that is great in superhumanland, but what about where I live???

[doiask42much]

Your husband sounds just awful. While I understand that he cannot help it if women flirt with him, he certainly could do a lot more to reassure you that he's not interested in them but you.

 

Based on what you've said (saying it would be so nice to be with someone who worked at the same place, picked fights with me and I would find out later it was because she "ignored him", etc.), his thoughts are with that blonde woman and probably any attractive woman who flirts with him. It seems very likely he's been unfaithful to you (people don't usually have such thoughts/feelings about people they haven't been intimate with, especially not men), and it seems to me that he's very facile at making everything your fault, not his, so he can certainly rationalize infidelity.

 

From the sound of your counseling sessions, he doesn't sound very interested in making things right. How old is your daughter? I realize that you can't make decisions without factoring her well-being in, but being the product of a dysfunctional relationship myself, I can say that watching two people who don't want to be together stay together can be just as damaging for a child, if not worse.

 

It sounds like there is a lot more going on here than just white lies and irrational jealousy. Your jealousy is VERY rational, and he seems to have a fundamental lack of respect for you and your feelings. I feel terrible for you and think you deserve better. This situation is seriously damaging to your self-esteem, and if anything I think you are underreacting, considering all the things he says and does.

 

With my parents as role models, I turned into a fairly dysfunctional adult and engaged in many behaviors similar to both your husband and the women who flirt with him in front of you. But I am trying to be different and think more carefully about how hurtful they can be, and reading your story helped underscore that for me.

 

I really hope you find a way to be happy. What would be the best possible outcome for you? Do you think things can get better? I know what I would do if I were you, but of course the decision has to be yours.

[Sheba]

I have trouble with that "no one makes you feel" thing too. I had my own little explosion during one counselling session when the counsellor started to go that route - how am I supposed to feel if I am told that "no one would put up with me", that I have "ruined his life", that I am "crazy, insane, stupid" etc...? Am I too feel loved and worthy?

 

It is a point of pride to me that I do not say these things to him. The worst I have said to him is that he is a "bad friend". That is a serious insult, of course, in my books. But, I don't tell him that he is worthless generally - just that he has been very hard on me.

 

I also have trouble with that "no one makes you feel" thing from the other direction. I USED to feel very loved and admired by my husband. This was because he said kind things to me (well, he still does, at times - but they get sort of canceled out). I make an effort to "make him feel" loved by me - by complimenting him, reassuring him, touching him.

 

I think we all have the power to affect how another person feels and it is a load of bullsh*t to pretend otherwise. That is not to say that our own inner voices have no effect, it is just that those voices are joined by the outside ones. Sometimes, if you are like me, and your own inner voice and his outer voice are both telling you you are unlovable - well, you end up in a very bad place indeed.

 

Ok, enough of that rant.

 

Luvstarved, my husband is not gorgeous but he is very funny and clever and charming. Happily, I don't have to deal with gorgeous strange women flirting with him - I might be off my rocker! Even though I, like you, could plainly see he bears no responsibility for their actions, it would feel like an additional threat in an already threatened relationship. I was annoyed that a saleswoman slapped him on the a** the other day and then got more annoyed when he defended her (telling me HE was not offended).

 

You say you are sturdily attractive and refer to a "discrepancy" but that may be more imagined than real. After all, you are married. We can all look around and see that most couples are more or less evenly matched in terms of the "usual standard" of attraciveness. So, I am willing to bet you are much more beautiful than you realize. I wish you would consider working on feeling good about that aspect of yourself - get a new haircut and makeup, buy some sexy shoes and wear them on the street, do whatever it is you do to make yourself feel attractive. Who know what ego boosts you may garner for yourself?

 

As for breaking your own anger cycle - perhaps a bigger fish to fry - consider doing what my counsellor asked me to do: turn it off for a week. Borrow the "one day at a time" principle, even. Make it a goal for yourself and see what happens. I did this for 2 weeks and it was hard, as I am now angry, too. But, I do think it helps to break the cycle. I am less angry now about petty things - though still plenty angry about the big issues. Maybe it will be easier to work on the big issues if the petty ones are not cluttering up your mind, his and the counsellors?

 

The woman at work? Well, I would dislike that situation too. I have no useful advice in that regard. I hope she quits!

[doiask42much]

I guess the other important question is, do you think he loves you? Based on what I have read about him, I would say no, but perhaps my definition of love is too narrow? Also, how exactly do you feel about him?

[luvstarved]

- Sheba, that's ok my H is not funny and clever

I have lately been trying to do things for myself, trying to lose weight (I am no tank but would like to lose maybe 10 pounds), exercise, new clothes (but not too many if I am trying to lose weight!!), manicures, etc. It helps a little but sometimes I feel as if I am pathetically trying to make myself more attractive to him to no avail and then I am right back where I started - under the rug!

 

He was surprised when I told him once that I thought in the grand scheme he was higher on the attractive scale than me (how stupid of me was THAT?) but I really do think so...I have seen women double take and coworkers can't resist commenting about it later when they meet him, etc (not "your H is better looking than you", but "wow your H is really handsome" with some undertone of incredulity). Sometimes I will joke "yeah but he's an *******, ya want him?"

 

I did more or less ask the counselor how I should act (we haven't even discussed sex or jealousy yet but more with the abuse and mind-reading stuff) and he just said that I can try to have a good day for me even if a bad day for the relationship, try to just tell myself "well it is not really working today, let it go" and keep my side of the bargain with regard to listening, respecting, validating even if he does not.

 

I am just so demoralized to think that no matter what I do to work on myself, I will always be wrong and no matter what he does, he will be justified. Sure the counselor sees through him, but what good does that do if my H won't take it to heart?

 

All night he has practically refused to talk to me. I suppose now the counselor and I are in cahoots against him or something.

[luvstarved]

doiask42much - Thank you so much for your support. To answer your question, no, I do not believe that he loves me, nor do I believe that he loves the blonde. My observation is that he does not really love anyone and is not capable of it at this point. He seems to want to preserve the marriage but he seems to want to preserve his reality just a bit more. The old he'd rather be right than happy scenario.

 

Since all of these red flags started flying, I confess that I have "spied" on him to some extent. There are no suspicious emails, calls, expenditures, trips to "store", etc. He has quit looking at the porn. For the most part, he is a goofy self-absorbed guy that just goes to the gym, reads, watches and plays baseball. A simple guy wanting a simple life.

 

On the other hand, the red flags, lies and apparent lack of guilt/remorse are still there. I do feel that he could go out and be unfaithful and not really think twice about it, where I used to think otherwise. I don't even think he would think about the woman's feelings, maybe jerk off thinking about the sex but nothing beyond that. He does go the gym a lot (always has), runs errands, and is on the road for work a LOT, so if he wanted to enough, he could make the opportunity. To be honest, though, I think it would be more "hassle" than it was worth to him and if he really did what he wanted, he'd just do the porn/fantasy/masturbation thing.

 

He has this insane insistence that he is an open book but is totally unwilling to talk about sex, gets angry, suggests I am making mountains out of mole hills when I try. I have not figured that one out yet, other than to guess that he knows that the truth is that he is not a real stand up guy in that regard and opening his mouth about it would just prove it.

 

He has gotten really out of control dead wrong raging about things and weeks later still thinks he was justified...

 

But, he has read the books the counselor has suggested and talks about relationships and all in general, and he did start making the changes I requested in the sex realm (i.e., having it with me!!).

 

I don't like to say "blame" but in the end I think that he wants to do right and be right and has no clue how. His parents spoiled him rotten, always deferred to him, made him the boss, told him he was always right, jumped when he said jump, etc. He lived with them until we married. He cites him and his mother as being right (of course, she agrees with everything he says) about me, that I am an unkind person, etc. There is this whole history of him taking innocuous words or actions as attacks and insults and I have heard her jump right on his bandwagon. I have tried to temper that and suggest that perhaps nothing was meant, etc but always get angry response that I am being unsupportive...even when later he himself realizes he misunderstood a situation.

 

Lately he keeps running to Mom to bitch about me and gets validated all over the place. He got mad today because he went over there and I arranged to go with him (right after counseling appointment, our daughter was there and he was "just going to pick her up") because I knew it would undo any potential there was for the counselor's message to sink in if he went there and was told that me and the counselor were full of crap by dear old Mom.

 

She is all over our lives, intrusive, disregards my requests for boundaries, gets snippy and judgmental...but in his mind, she is only trying to be helpful and when I get irritated because she violated some boundary (rearranging closets in my home, cleaning my kids' rooms when I have asked her not to, etc) then I am being mean and disrespectful to her.

 

He also said one time that he got "sexual signals" from her and asked me what I thought about it. He did not like my answer so never brought it up again, but the old ladies' site was a porn favorite. Coincidence????

 

God, I am blathering, there is so much weirdness and mystery here.

 

I am still here because I feel that if we COULD get to the point that we could open up and relate in an honest way that we would see how similar our wants and needs are and we could have a great marriage. This counselor is quite honestly my last hope. After the events of today, it is a pretty thin one.

[luvstarved]

Sigh....one last comment...truth is that he needs me WAY more than I need him, I take care of everything except mowing the lawn and taking out trash...and I feel that is his big motive for keeping me, that and our daughter. There is an inverse "intellectual discrepancy" (ie he is the good looking one and I am the smart one, believe it or not!) and he just could not handle things on his own and now Mom and Dad are getting too old to...but that just makes me feel used, especially since he feels entitled to command me to do things his way in his time frame, while not being willing to contribute.

 

Just keeps getting stranger...

[LucreziaBorgia]

Some people lie to avoid the inevitable fallout they will get from being truthful.

 

Imagine the 'truthful' scenario in answering these questions:

 

1. Why? Do they look funny?

 

2. "I very rarely masturbate"

 

3. "I never interact with that woman at work" Or,

 

4. "I don't know how your black panties ended up in the back of my drawer"

 

5. Or, "That woman I just spoke to, that's Jackie. She's married to an old HS friend of mine" (whose name he can't remember)

 

6. "The porn just showed up on the screen, I did NOT seek it out"

 

1. Yes, they make your butt look big, and the tops of your thighs bulge out in a way that is unattractive. I don't want to go to the gym and be seen by other guys with a girl who looks chubby in too tight gym pants.

 

2. I masturbate a lot because often I don't want to be bothered with having actual sex when I can get the same desired result in just a few minutes with no fuss.

 

3. I flirt with women at work because it makes me feel good to have that sort of attention.

 

4. I masturbated while sniffing your panties and rubbing them on my d*ck.

 

5. I slept with Jackie in HS, and would love to sleep with Jackie again if we weren't both involved with other people. Better say something to throw you off that scent!

 

6. I download porn all the time. It helps with the masturbation process, and I like how the women look, and what they do on the screen. It turns me on.

 

Imagine your reaction to that! It would be nuclear, and the fallout would poison you both for a long, long time. Why on earth would he be truthful about something when the punishment for doing so far outweighs the benefits? The only way he is going to stop lying to avoid your anger, is to find a way to control your anger.

[dbtmarley]

Luvstarved,

 

Thanks for replying to my post! I say this because I was a bit in the dark when I initially replied and you still took the time to explain. While the therapist may be right about your passive aggressive behavior I am kind of wondering what choice you have other than to be so. You have very little say in your marriage it seems and this is your husband's doing. He does not like counseling because he does not see a problem. The only problem he has is probably wondering why you are not satisfied with his pompous, grandiose behavior...

 

My mother married someone similar and she died with regret....

 

I am sure you have been told to leave him and that may not be feasible to you I know, but it may be something you may have to consider. It is either that or spend the rest of your life with this guy, that is if he does not decide if and when to end it himself. Personally from what I have read, I would not put it past him.

 

I really hope you can find a solution to all this.... good luck.

 

 

Thomas

[luvstarved]

Some people lie to avoid the inevitable fallout they will get from being truthful.

 

Imagine the 'truthful' scenario in answering these questions:

 

 

 

1. Yes, they make your butt look big, and the tops of your thighs bulge out in a way that is unattractive. I don't want to go to the gym and be seen by other guys with a girl who looks chubby in too tight gym pants.

 

2. I masturbate a lot because often I don't want to be bothered with having actual sex when I can get the same desired result in just a few minutes with no fuss.

 

3. I flirt with women at work because it makes me feel good to have that sort of attention.

 

4. I masturbated while sniffing your panties and rubbing them on my d*ck.

 

5. I slept with Jackie in HS, and would love to sleep with Jackie again if we weren't both involved with other people. Better say something to throw you off that scent!

 

6. I download porn all the time. It helps with the masturbation process, and I like how the women look, and what they do on the screen. It turns me on.

 

Imagine your reaction to that! It would be nuclear, and the fallout would poison you both for a long, long time. Why on earth would he be truthful about something when the punishment for doing so far outweighs the benefits? The only way he is going to stop lying to avoid your anger, is to find a way to control your anger.

 

Points taken. I have said I am not looking for "brutal honesty" but some lies are more understandable than others

 

-lying to avoid discussing relationship issues "I want a celibate spiritual life" while jerking off and lookng at porn, is that fair to me??

-obviously lying for no reason when any other offhand remark - "jackie is married to my friend but I can't remember my friend's name" when he could have said "oh she's just one of the moms I run into at parties" or something

-lying to avoid culpability; having a rage and calling me names and then "that never happened"

-lying because he knows what I am thinking Lying lying lying about practically every interaction with every woman when I have only ever reacted to red flags, like the woman at work who clearly seemed to attract him and had an agenda

 

When I first caught the porn it was right there in browser history and I only said, look if you want but keep it away from kids. he jumped right in with oh I didn't ask for it, I hate porn, when I did not solicit that from him. Of course as it got mixed in with our sex life and other lies I did get more sensitive to it...but who wouldn't?

[Sheba]

Luvstarved, don't let yourself fall into the trap of thinking your weight loss and self-care is about him. It is not for him or to spite him - it is for you. Give yourself a gift.

 

I am sorry to hear that your husband now finds the counsellor to be "up his a**" - you predicted this, didn't you? I guess that we will have to wait until next week to see if he will refuse to attend the next session. If he goes, try to take heart in that. My husband's continued attendance at the counselling sessions is all that I hang onto some days. Even though my husband has yet to admit to any wrong doing and has yet to apologize to me for a single thing - he comes to counselling and listens.

 

It seems to me when I read your posts that your husband really loves himself as a sex object more than anyone/anything else. Maybe he feels safest with himself as a love object? It is progress that you are having sex again. This is the second thing you can try to take heart in.

 

It also seems to me when I read your posts that you, like me, really adore your husband. Despite that there seems to be no earthly reason for this affection. This is why we put up with all of this, isn't it? This is also why it is so terribly painful. The constant hot/cold, push/pull, love/hate is so very difficult because these men have the ability to hurt us so deeply. I often think I would be better off if my husband did some foul thing that would give me the courage to leave, so I could grieve and finally be done with the whole torturous experience. I have learned that hitting me is not foul enough - never thought I would put up that.

 

You and I might both be what our husbands call us at this point - crazy and unkind - but I feel as if we have been trained and provoked and PAINED into becoming so. Against our better natures. This is not who we really are, luv. We need a mantra for ourselves, to help us get through this to the other side - whereever that may be. Perhaps the mantra should be a reminder to be our real selves, instead of the twisted b*tches they are telling us we are.

Instead of the insecure, angry, spiteful, sad people our marriages have made us.

 

Who are you, really?

[doiask42much]

luvstarved, I am glad to hear that it is a little more benign than I thought and that you two are having sex again. Marlena posted a thread called something like "Should we stop dating good-looking men?" and I thought it seemed sort of relevant to your situation. Maybe have a look at it? Many people on there seemed to think that attractive people rarely mature properly as they are used to being catered to and rewarded for simply looking how they do and therefore continue to act like children for most of their lives, if not all. It seems your husband has these traits from what you have said and doesn't see them as a problem and therefore won't change. I do get the impression you're a very intelligent woman and I'm not surprised to learn that you're smarter than he is. Aside from your daughter, why do you think you stay? I'm sure you're underrating your attractiveness as well. Ten pounds to lose is not very much. I feel confident you could find someone who would make you happier than you currently are.

[Darth Vader]

I never really did before, but I am hypersensitive to the lying now and so I admit that sometimes I have a strong anger reaction when it happens, especially when it is SO BLEEDING OBVIOUS and/or UNSOLICITED. I KNOW that I do this and that it just makes things worse but I just don't know how to break the cycle.

 

 

He may be cheating on you, I suggest that you find out, keylogger or whatever. Break the cycle? Divorce him. I'm really sorry for you, there's just something not right about this man.

[luvstarved]

Luvstarved, don't let yourself fall into the trap of thinking your weight loss and self-care is about him. It is not for him or to spite him - it is for you. Give yourself a gift.

 

I am sorry to hear that your husband now finds the counsellor to be "up his a**" - you predicted this, didn't you? I guess that we will have to wait until next week to see if he will refuse to attend the next session. If he goes, try to take heart in that. My husband's continued attendance at the counselling sessions is all that I hang onto some days. Even though my husband has yet to admit to any wrong doing and has yet to apologize to me for a single thing - he comes to counselling and listens.

 

It seems to me when I read your posts that your husband really loves himself as a sex object more than anyone/anything else. Maybe he feels safest with himself as a love object? It is progress that you are having sex again. This is the second thing you can try to take heart in.

 

It also seems to me when I read your posts that you, like me, really adore your husband. Despite that there seems to be no earthly reason for this affection. This is why we put up with all of this, isn't it? This is also why it is so terribly painful. The constant hot/cold, push/pull, love/hate is so very difficult because these men have the ability to hurt us so deeply. I often think I would be better off if my husband did some foul thing that would give me the courage to leave, so I could grieve and finally be done with the whole torturous experience. I have learned that hitting me is not foul enough - never thought I would put up that.

 

You and I might both be what our husbands call us at this point - crazy and unkind - but I feel as if we have been trained and provoked and PAINED into becoming so. Against our better natures. This is not who we really are, luv. We need a mantra for ourselves, to help us get through this to the other side - whereever that may be. Perhaps the mantra should be a reminder to be our real selves, instead of the twisted b*tches they are telling us we are.

Instead of the insecure, angry, spiteful, sad people our marriages have made us.

 

Who are you, really?

 

Hi Sheba,

 

Yes you make a lot of good points. I did predict the counselor problem but not much of a stretch, it is what he did before. Also, I AM trying to really self-care vs pathetically try to get his attention and it is a real back and forth feeling. Some days when I feel good about me, I feel like I just want to get away from him and be done with the whole thing, I get caught between feeling like I don't care enough and care too much.

 

But people ask me why I stay. Truth is, he was the first man that I both wanted and could have. I had been in a bad relationship before with "the man of my dreams" who had another girlfriend and ultimately chose her. Course, they married and then divorced 18 months later...but I thought after that I would be resigned to my previous situation of ending up with guys who weren't quite what I really wanted. That might sound mean but it is what it is.

 

I do adore him when he is "on" which he is as long as people comply with his wishes and meet his expectations. I am not able to be the "surrendered wife" but he had the "surrendered mom" so big time...in fact she was here today and kept jumping up to do things that he was being asked to do and I was getting really irritated.

 

He has been trained to my mind to be selfish and yes in love with himself basically. He does seem to want to be good but compared to his parents I must seem like a shrew. His romantic history seems to have only included brief relationships with women who either got fed up with his selfishness or he got bored with them sexually. That's totally a guess but a somewhat educated one. Outside of that, life has been him and his parents, or in other words, him.

 

I am on edge all of the time trying to please him and not set him off while at the same time I do refuse to go as far as mom and dad do. Meanwhile, I get a very negative vibe from him most of the time. Since the counseling yesterday, he almost acts like he hates me. Not saying anything but looking at me with what seems like contempt or disgust and being very distant.

 

I feel so confused that I really don't know how crazy and unkind I am being. But you are dead right that we should focus on getting back to our real selves...I am tired of walking on eggshells. And, it is true that the less attention I give him and the more I try to stay cool and do my own thing, the more insecure HE gets...what a tangled web we weave.

 

BUT SHEBA!!!! You said that your H HIT YOU???? I have missed this before in reading your posts. What is up with that? Is this something that happened once or any kind of a pattern? I know that emotional abuse can do real damage, but physical abuse is a whole different ball game. What is going on there?????????!!!!!!!

[luvstarved]

He may be cheating on you, I suggest that you find out, keylogger or whatever. Break the cycle? Divorce him. I'm really sorry for you, there's just something not right about this man.

 

DV, I have been checking on him for quite a while and there has been absolutely nothing. I think he did get bored with me sexually and his past reaction to that was to break up and just take care of himself until someone new came along. But he has genuinely tried and there have been improvements. Do I think that he fantasizes about other women, and some more than others, and at least slightly resents that he can't "go for it"? Sure I do. Is THAT abnormal? Not too much. To me, the problem there is that people have to realize that those sacrifices are not made for OTHERS but for ONE'S SELF. He can screw anyone he wants,he just can't keep me at the same time. He does have a bit of a stereotypical attitude toward marriage (yes the old ball and chain) but I have said many times, hey it's your life, pick your poison/manna.

 

I really really do believe that the problem is how he was raised. He just can't take criticism or disagreement because he has never had to. He can't take attention going to others because he has never had to. He can't invest in someone else's feelings and needs because he has never had to. He can't take being refused any request because he has never had to. On and on.

 

I could just let his "episodes" blow over for the rest of my life and HE would be QUITE happy. He DOES seem happy when he gets the attention and compliance he wants. But I CAN'T live the rest of my life like that so the quest now is to find out how good CAN this get? CAN it get "good enough". Of course I have grave doubts but I have not given up....yet!

[luvstarved]

luvstarved, I am glad to hear that it is a little more benign than I thought and that you two are having sex again. Marlena posted a thread called something like "Should we stop dating good-looking men?" and I thought it seemed sort of relevant to your situation. Maybe have a look at it? Many people on there seemed to think that attractive people rarely mature properly as they are used to being catered to and rewarded for simply looking how they do and therefore continue to act like children for most of their lives, if not all. It seems your husband has these traits from what you have said and doesn't see them as a problem and therefore won't change. I do get the impression you're a very intelligent woman and I'm not surprised to learn that you're smarter than he is. Aside from your daughter, why do you think you stay? I'm sure you're underrating your attractiveness as well. Ten pounds to lose is not very much. I feel confident you could find someone who would make you happier than you currently are.

 

I will look for that thread, That might be part of the problem. I don't think he has had trouble ever getting women, but keeping them or even WANTING to keep them has been a different story. In counseling and to me he has even given conflicting accounts of his "intentions" when we met. At the time he told me after dating for two months that he "wasn't looking for anything serious" (and I threw him out on his ear for saying it and refused to see him for a month) then when we did get back together he made it seems like he was overwhelmed with love for me and "never knew it could be like this" but now in counseling he sort of conveys that he married me because he and his parents "thought it was time" as though I just happened to be the one that showed up at the correct time and met the basic criteria.

 

I try to be realistic, I know I am not a dog! But I'm no supermodel either. I do happen to have a high IQ (Mensa, etc) but I don't take "credit" for that or try to brag-ass about it. My feeling is that we're all born with whatever we get and it's what you do with it that matters. If I spend my time chewing up brainpower over emotional confusion, that's not much of a hooray for me. I feel like this character Spock from Star Trek - half human/emotional, half Vulcan/rational who feels "thwarted" by the "human side" and those things that can't be methodically resolved.

 

But God knows, I'm still trying.

[Darth Vader]

I'm still wondering what's with the panties thing? I got to thinking, if he was cheating and covering it up really good, who says that it has to be a woman?

[Sheba]

Luvstarved - how is this week treating you?

[luvstarved]

Luvstarved - how is this week treating you?

 

Hi Sheba,

 

Well I responded to this last night after responding to your post but must have forgotten to hit Submit. Well, it was late...

 

Things are weird. I spent much of the weekend fantasizing about being on my own and imagining myself free of him and it felt strangely good. After a while, though, I started into imagining not knowing where he was every day and not having any right to know, and also practical stuff about having half the resources for retirement some day and well, you get the idea. More back and forth crap. My demeanor was distant...funny in my "withdrawn" times, I DO speak to him, am responsive, will discuss external things and all that but just am not affectionate...yet he will translate this to the counselor as "not speaking for days"...

 

We had our session yesterday. I started off by bringing in a piece of paper on blame and accountability he had given to my husband and in it it said something like "your abuser" and "you, the victim" and my H had said over the weekend that that PROVED that the Dr. thought I was the abuser, so I took it in to ask the Dr. for clarification. I presented it as calmy as I could, saying that H had mentioned that he interpreted it as meaning that I was the abusive one and that reading it, I could see why he thought so and that if I was indeed the abuser I would like to work on not being so. The Dr. said of course that was not what he meant, he just wanted him to focus on the parts that talked about how blame was never helpful, etc.

 

H went off a little on that - accusing me of being clever and calculated, etc. (Another of his common defenses/deflections is to claim that the counselor or whomever is taking my side because I am the clever and articulate one). I told him I had no such intention but was trying to clarify something that was ambiguous in intent. So that blew over...

 

All weekend long I thought about this stuff and also had fantasies about how I was going to go in this week and just blow the top off of all the bulls**t...but somehow by Tuesday after a long work day I don't have enough steam...anyway, he gave us a paper on boundaries and examples violating them. There was a list that basically summarized what my H does...and he at least SAID it hit home with him. Counselor said H's main thing was "grandiosity" and anger and mine was more sarcasm and withdrawal...and nobody disagreed on those.

 

But I was like...fine but you also talk about "subjective reality" and nobody really being right and having to validate each other's feelings, etc. What about when I say "you are violating my boundaries" and am told "reality is subjective and my reality is that I am NOT violating your boundaries". What about THAT?

 

He said that in that case you have to evaluate what you are being told, decide whether there is any truth in it for you and proceed from there. And so I nod my head and look attentive and thoughtful while thinking, "what the F**K do you think I have been doing for the last decade?"

 

I also ask how you reconcile conflicting statements of reality like "I am happier than I have ever been" and "You are the unkindest most difficult person I have ever met and I only stay because of our daughter". H jumped in and copped to saying things to hurt me because he was hurt and that the happier statement was the actual truth. THAT blew over.

 

So counselor talks more about when something occurs, you tell the other how you felt and all that nice-y stuff, day to day communication bumps...so I asked, well, how do you bring long standing conflicts into this equation. How do you deal with the issues that require discussion and negotiation and compromise? And he said that the short answer was to bring them into session for now. He blathered a little about give and take but told me to make a list of issues I wanted to talk about and we would address them.

 

Of course, I could have whipped such a list right off the top of my head:

 

1) his Mom

2) our sex life

3) the huge umbrella issue of his narcissistic traits

 

but didn't. That was about it. Then H said he thought it was good session. In the car, I brought up one of the issues - his Mom. He was more or less agreeing with what I was saying and said he was relieved that she was the issue and not him. I said that she was on the list, but not alone on the list...more on all that later I guess.

 

Another downer though is that I am on my tenth sex-free day. Actually he initiated Monday and daughter woke up and put the kibosh on that. Yesterday he tried and I refused because of being put off the previous day by his foreplay "technique" - hovering over me masturbating while idly stroking me in a pointless way (rubbing a crooked index finger two inches above my clit)- although I said "I just had a headache" when asked later. One lame excuse deserves another, I figured. This morning, he tiptoed around very quietly - nobody else was in the house and we could have had unbridled sex instead of the usual hushed quickie. He went into bathroom and I got up and went on back porch (from which view you can look into bathroom if you want). When he heard me, he tried to discreetly close the shade. Apparently that was supposed to prevent me from knowing what was going on in there.

 

So at the moment I am irritated about the sex thing...all the lies and evasions over the years. What really gets me is that I can understand to a large extent how he has gotten to prefer masturbation a) was his most prevalent sexual activity b) being incapable of intimacy, how can he sustain a good sex life after the initial thrill has worn off - it's just EASIER c) I hate to say but I think there is some Mommy issue in there - his mother and me being a mommy - the downslide did start with our daughter's birth. d) he's somewhat homophobic and probably has some latent gay feelings/fears although from all other evidence I don't think he is gay, just that I think the penis-centric nature of male masturbation brings some confusion like that into the mix. And other stuff I'm sure. The problem is I CANNOT get him to discuss it honestly with me. If he would ADMIT to this reality, then we could maybe reverse it, or at least try to find some compromise in which we could BOTH be sexually happy (or at least content) but he not only won't admit that HE has this issue, he claims that SUCH A PERSON (one who prefers masturbation) does not exist!! Talk about denial!!

 

It isn't that I am a lousy f**K or that I am prudish or anything like that.

I'd circled the block a few times before I met him and know better. He just is so repressed and has shame and embarrassment as well as stereotypical thoughts in his head. He CAN'T talk about it even though he claims he can.

 

My plan right now is to write little "position papers" on the three topics...get my feelings/side of the story down and bring it to counseling. H will probably say that it is to try to show him up or trap him or something. Actually,the intention is to be as thorough and honest and clear as I can.

 

We'll see how it goes...I am frankly not really optimistic right now but things are quiet and I am trying to keep a clear and open mind and heart...

 

I guess your counseling is today. Hope to see a good report later