Responsibility and Blame

[Pilgrim]

I've just been reading some posts that come down to the issue of "who is to blame"

 

I'm currently fighting my way through a tough situation, forgiving and wooing an unfaithful wife for almost a year when it has felt pretty much like one way traffic with all the effort and change coming from me.

 

One of the things I'm observing is this. Of the people who are standing with me to help me through it they fall into 2 camps. Either horrified at what was done to me and the resulting response that I am dealing with (Empathisers) or keen to stress the mutual nature of any marriage problem (Neutrals).

 

I understand both, and probably need both to keep me sane. But here is the insight which is really helping me.

 

We tend to think of responsibility as something of which there is only a fixed amount that is shared out e.g. She was 80% responsible, I was 20% responsible.... or 90%/10% etc.

 

So what it feels like the neutrals are doing is reducing the severity of what has been done and the responsibilty for it, by stressing my part in what was not good in the marriage before all this happened.

 

However, what I am beginning to see is this. Responsibility isnt a fixed amount. If I take more of it, it doesnt lessen the amount someone else has. No relationship is perfect, but there is never ANY justification for the decision to destroy people's lives the way that infidelity does.

 

So, I can take a degree of responsibility for the imperfections - it does not make my wife any less responsible for the calculating decision to do what she did. But this frees me to not be so much a victim, and tackle the things I can, to make things better than they are in the areas that are down to me.

 

What do others think? How do "the neutrals" make you feel? Same as me or different?

[mountain girl]

Neutral shruetral. When we get married we pronounce our vows. Nothing is said like "I promise to honor but if my partner starts to not be what i want i get to look elsewhere."

 

when I got married I took it to mean that was the person I was to spend the rest of my life with. Sure, it's not always easy...but bottom line is the golden rule applies at the end of the day.

 

That being said, when a cheating partner knows that their actions will hurt the other...they are being 100% selfish and evil. there is no neutral about it.

 

If a partner is not happy, why is there so little communication before they decide to open themselves to an affair.

 

All the communication comes afterward when it might just be too late.

 

I've experienced the neutral friends - especially since my H has only (apparently) had an EA. I'm not talking to them much these days.

[Trialbyfire]

I'm currently fighting my way through a tough situation, forgiving and wooing an unfaithful wife for almost a year when it has felt pretty much like one way traffic with all the effort and change coming from me.

I'm not even going to get into the psychology of the neutrals except to say that it's a form of control. If it's more your fault in the relationship, you have control to fix it.

 

As you can see, no matter how much "blame" you accept in the relationship, you can't control her actions. She is an adult and has to step up to her own responsibilities in the relationship. This means experiencing remorse, wooing you back and then providing you with the consistency that you need.

[Mr. Lucky]

forgiving and wooing an unfaithful wife for almost a year when it has felt pretty much like one way traffic with all the effort and change coming from me.

Your description of her post-A attitude doesn't surprise me. It's that same narcissistic sense of self-entitlement that makes many people cheat in the first place. They see their spouse's job as delivering happiness to them - if they aren't feelin' it at any given time, in their mind, all fidelity bets are off. I feel for you...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Melissa277]

I've just been reading some posts that come down to the issue of "who is to blame"

 

I'm currently fighting my way through a tough situation, forgiving and wooing an unfaithful wife for almost a year when it has felt pretty much like one way traffic with all the effort and change coming from me.

 

One of the things I'm observing is this. Of the people who are standing with me to help me through it they fall into 2 camps. Either horrified at what was done to me and the resulting response that I am dealing with (Empathisers) or keen to stress the mutual nature of any marriage problem (Neutrals).

 

I understand both, and probably need both to keep me sane. But here is the insight which is really helping me.

 

We tend to think of responsibility as something of which there is only a fixed amount that is shared out e.g. She was 80% responsible, I was 20% responsible.... or 90%/10% etc.

 

So what it feels like the neutrals are doing is reducing the severity of what has been done and the responsibilty for it, by stressing my part in what was not good in the marriage before all this happened.

 

However, what I am beginning to see is this. Responsibility isnt a fixed amount. If I take more of it, it doesnt lessen the amount someone else has. No relationship is perfect, but there is never ANY justification for the decision to destroy people's lives the way that infidelity does.

 

So, I can take a degree of responsibility for the imperfections - it does not make my wife any less responsible for the calculating decision to do what she did. But this frees me to not be so much a victim, and tackle the things I can, to make things better than they are in the areas that are down to me.

 

What do others think? How do "the neutrals" make you feel? Same as me or different?

 

First of all, your W chose to cheat. She chose to lie. She chose to betray. Why the hell are you "wooing" her?

 

And secondly, who are these "neutrals" you speak of? Family? Friends? Acquaintances? Whoever they are, you should tell them to take a long walk off a short pier. If I'm understanding what your point is, they feel that because the marriage wasn't perfect, your W had a valid reason to cheat and they are justifying her actions to you by pointing out your "part" in all this? Are you an axe murderer? A child molester? Did you physically abuse her? I'm thinking no ... so why on earth would you listen to someone stress what was your "part" was that was "not good?" If we use that reasoning, everyone gets a free pass. "Well you did/didn't do this/that so I felt I had a right to cheat." C'mon now.

 

The so-called "neutrals" is my situation were H's sisters. I don't know if you would call them "neutrals" per se, but both of them called me when the sh*t hit the fan and both said (I'm sure they had rehearsed it before they called) "Well, I know how hard this must be for you, but he's our brother, so ..." So? So what? So it's okay that he lied, cheated and betrayed? Neither stressed "the mutual nature of any marriage problem" but their reaction said it all for me. This is how I was treated after being a member of their family for twenty-four years. I don't talk to either of them much any more.

 

I'm sorry you are going through this. Believe me, I feel you.

[Curmudgeon]

A marriage is not a matter of two halves coming together to make a whle. It's a matter of two wholes coming together to enhance one another and the relationship.

 

That makes each of them 100% responsible for their individual actions as well as the marriage. Assigning blame or responsibility by degrees and percentage points just doesn't work.

 

What happens, or fails to, in a relationship is less important than how the partners each react to it on an individual basis. The "empathizers" and "neutrals" don't cunt. Only you and your wife do.

 

"What's in your wallet?"

[Cobra_X30]

A marriage is not a matter of two halves coming together to make a whle. It's a matter of two wholes coming together to enhance one another and the relationship.

 

That makes each of them 100% responsible for their individual actions as well as the marriage. Assigning blame or responsibility by degrees and percentage points just doesn't work.

 

What happens, or fails to, in a relationship is less important than how the partners each react to it on an individual basis. The "empathizers" and "neutrals" don't cunt. Only you and your wife do.

 

"What's in your wallet?"

 

 

Not true at all.

 

Marriage is two people becoming one shared family and future. An adulterer gets to own 100% of the responsibility for thier own actions. Every marriage will go through rough spots its no excuse to run around.

 

Cheating reveals more about the cheater than the relationship.

[Curmudgeon]

Not true at all.

 

Very true. People who are only half people should not get married. They're missing half themselves. Therefore they'll lean on the other person to make up for it. That's a horrible burden to place on their spouse. It's all or nothing at all!

 

Marriage is two people becoming one shared family and future.

 

Yes! Two WHOLE people! Each can still have their individual goals and aspirations but they take the other into consideration and enhance both in the process.

 

An adulterer gets to own 100% of the responsibility for thier own actions. Every marriage will go through rough spots its no excuse to run around..

 

Right back to my original premise. A whole person takes 100% of the blame for their transgressions and mistakes. Half a person would be incapable of doing so.

 

Cheating reveals more about the cheater than the relationship.

 

Absolutely! It defines them, not the marriage.

 

By the way, Cobra, welcome aboard!

[Pilgrim]

Hey Melissa (and others)

 

Thanks for the posts. I appreciate them. It's nice not to feel alone in tackling all this stuff. A quick post to answer - as it was HER that chose infidelity why am I doing the wooing?

 

Good question. Not because I think it should be up to me.

 

I'm wooing because I can. I made vows for life, and her UNfaithfulness will not cancel out my faithfulness. I'm acting out of MY values, not out of a sense of contract or any entitlement on her part.

 

I dont want out - a split is not an option for me given my values. But neither do I want the status quo. So forward, and different, is the only option despite the impasse in her response.

 

I do want her to change. I know she has to change for it to work. It costs me nothing in the long run to go first and set an example - with the proviso (vitally) that she DOES change. And if she doesn't I've still lived out what is important to ME, and been the kind of person I know I can be.

 

I think my view is somewhere in between empathy and neutrality i.e. It is 100% her responsibility to do all the things that Trialbyfire said, but equally it can't hurt to change some of the patterns of how we relate to each other that had led her to be unhappy (not that unhappiness is ANY excuse)

 

But I REALLY appreciate the solidarity

 

Is past midnight in my part of the world, so I'll sign off now.

[Frances]

Very true. People who are only half people should not get married. They're missing half themselves. Therefore they'll lean on the other person to make up for it. That's a horrible burden to place on their spouse. It's all or nothing at all!

 

 

 

Yes! Two WHOLE people! Each can still have their individual goals and aspirations but they take the other into consideration and enhance both in the process.

 

 

I certainly agree, I hate the expression "your other half".

[shellys-trying]

Let me tell you, I begged my H to stay with me and the kids on dday. He acted like he couldn't decide which one was the best choice (me or whore). I talked with him till midnite and he finally decided to break off the A.

 

the reason I'm telling this is simple.

Don't woo your W. She cheated on you. You don't owe her anything. Maybe a chance to prove to you how worthy she is to get a 2nd chance with you, but you don't have to run after her.

She F'd up.

I kept my trap shut for about 2 weeks pretending I was the one trying to work on my M. I kept my opinion of the 2 bit skank he'd cheated with and even listened to his opinion that she had engineered the 2 calls from the "good samaritan" who'd told me about the A. His opinion was the whore wasn't like that. She wouldn't do something like that.

I nearly blew a fuse trying to "be nice" until I bnroke down and gave it to him. I didn't give a crap if he left me for that trash or not after 2 weeks of my own sucking up.

I realized I hadn't F'd up. He had. I'd spent 12 yrs being a good W and a damn good mom to our kids. I was his accountant, bill payer, cook, housekeeper and here he sat like a king on a throne acting like I had done the wrong.

Hell no!

When my attitude changed, my H got scared and he knew then who was to blame. HE WAS.

 

You don't owe it to anyone but you, Pilgrim. Your W needs to suck up to you. If you let her think you're the wooer, she'll know she's got away with her cheating and could possibly do it again.

JMO

[Curmudgeon]

I made vows for life, and her UNfaithfulness will not cancel out my faithfulness.

 

BUT, I've always believe there are two ways out of them. You can break them or you can be released from them. I felt the ex's infidelity released me from my vows with her and I've never looked back.

[shellys-trying]

To bring the Good Book into it, it does say you cannot D your spouse, save fornication. your spouse did the fornicating, therefore releasing you from your vows, should you choose to D her.

If your spouse wants you to work on the M, then it's your choice.

Just a thought.

I believe in trying to work out your probs with your spouse, but you do have that choice.

[Melissa277]

Pilgrim, that's a great attitude to have. I, too, have values that I have tried to live by, but at this point, I'm thinking of tossing them all out the window. Unfortunately and obviously, our cheating spouses do not share these values which makes it kinda hard. That being said, does W want the marriage to work? I'm just asking because you said in your original post that you feel like your the only one who's putting in the effort and working on changing. As Mr. Lucky said, and I agree with him 100%, sometimes WS's feel it's their partners "job" to provide them with happiness without giving anything in return.

 

I don't want to make you feel worse, but is she in NC?

[Pilgrim]

Thanks. A week ago I'd have said no progress despite everything, with her no more than neutral. However (and I take my victories however small) since last week there is a change and she has come to wanting it to work. Of course "one swallow doesn't make a summer", so (to mix my metaphors) I'm not counting my chickens before they're hatched, but we'll see where it goes.

 

You didnt worry me about NC because I dont know what NC stands for! (These abbreviations drive me nuts!) . So what is NC then?

[Melissa277]

Oh gosh, I know. NC stands for "no contact" as in with OM/OW (other man/other woman). If you go to FAQ (frequently asked questions) there's a link at the bottom of the page that lists all the acronyms and their meanings. I know I've gone to it a lot. I'll be reading and thinking WTH

(what the hell) or WTF (what the f*ck) does that mean? Sorry, I used so many in this post ... I just couldn't resist. LOL (Lauging out loud)!

 

From what you said, you seem to have some hope for your marriage. Hang in there.

[reservoirdog1]

Pilgrim:

 

First of all: you were 50% responsible for whatever state the marriage was in at the point at which she decided to cheat. However, she was 100% responsible for cheating. At any point she could have chosen to do the right thing and honour the vows she swore, and she chose to forsake them. Nobody had a gun to her head.

 

Secondly: With respect to whether or not YOU should be trying to woo HER, I understand what you're saying about wanting to uphold your vows, even for the benefit of a spouse who chose to not show you that same respect.

 

However, there are limits. By all means, as long as you're trying to fix the damage, stay faithful to her and do what you can to make staying in the marriage an appealing option for her.

 

But, simultaneously, take care of YOURSELF. If you're like most of us betrayed spouses here, right now the idea of life without her is painful to contemplate. Maybe you even can't contemplate it.

 

To whatever degree you're feeling that, however, one thing you need to subtly convey to your WW is the sense that, whatever happens to the marriage because of her actions, you're going to be okay. In fact, better than okay. Your life will thrive and flourish, even without her, and if she wants to be part of that, she'd better get her ass in gear.

 

If you're not already, start going to the gym. Lose weight if you have to. Update your hairstyle, wardrobe, etc. Take up a new activity or interest or two. Invite her to join you but don't make her participation the determinant as to whether or not YOU do it.

 

This may all sound a bit counter-intuitive, but trust me -- it works. We all instinctively want what we can't have, and especially those things that everybody around us covets. And if you're looking good, projecting confidence, and clearly jazzed about YOUR life (read: not specifically your life WITH HER, but your life whether she's in it or not), not only will she be all the more interested and intrigued by you, but she will start to actively dread the prospect of losing you. That, if anything, will spur her into action.

[Darth Vader]

Let me tell you, I begged my H to stay with me and the kids on dday. He acted like he couldn't decide which one was the best choice (me or whore). I talked with him till midnite and he finally decided to break off the A.

 

the reason I'm telling this is simple.

Don't woo your W. She cheated on you. You don't owe her anything. Maybe a chance to prove to you how worthy she is to get a 2nd chance with you, but you don't have to run after her.

She F'd up.

I kept my trap shut for about 2 weeks pretending I was the one trying to work on my M. I kept my opinion of the 2 bit skank he'd cheated with and even listened to his opinion that she had engineered the 2 calls from the "good samaritan" who'd told me about the A. His opinion was the whore wasn't like that. She wouldn't do something like that.

I nearly blew a fuse trying to "be nice" until I bnroke down and gave it to him. I didn't give a crap if he left me for that trash or not after 2 weeks of my own sucking up.

I realized I hadn't F'd up. He had. I'd spent 12 yrs being a good W and a damn good mom to our kids. I was his accountant, bill payer, cook, housekeeper and here he sat like a king on a throne acting like I had done the wrong.

Hell no!

When my attitude changed, my H got scared and he knew then who was to blame. HE WAS.

 

You don't owe it to anyone but you, Pilgrim. Your W needs to suck up to you. If you let her think you're the wooer, she'll know she's got away with her cheating and could possibly do it again.

JMO

 

 

She's right. Your wife's playing you. Your wife knows that you have morals, and she's playing you on your own morals. No consequences for her actions, no motivation to change, period! She has nothing to lose, she rode another man and got off scott free, do you thing she would let you have sex with another woman? Ask her that, and see her reaction, I'm sure she'll be mad that you even brought that up..............

[Trialbyfire]

To whatever degree you're feeling that, however, one thing you need to subtly convey to your WW is the sense that, whatever happens to the marriage because of her actions, you're going to be okay. In fact, better than okay. Your life will thrive and flourish, even without her, and if she wants to be part of that, she'd better get her ass in gear.

 

This is excellent advice. She had better meet you more than halfway, if she wants your marriage to work. If not, you leave her behind, eating your dust...

[Pilgrim]

Thanks, RezDog. Appreciate the comments. Being authentic is key isnt it.

[bish]

I've just been reading some posts that come down to the issue of "who is to blame"

 

Thats easy, the cheater, the unfaithful spouse. Hands down. No ifs ands or buts.

 

I'm currently fighting my way through a tough situation, forgiving and wooing an unfaithful wife for almost a year when it has felt pretty much like one way traffic with all the effort and change coming from me.

 

I'm sorry you have to go through that. I know exactly how you feel.

 

 

We tend to think of responsibility as something of which there is only a fixed amount that is shared out e.g. She was 80% responsible, I was 20% responsible.... or 90%/10% etc.

 

Actually, its none of that. She is 100% responsible for her actions. and I don't care what anyone says, you are not to blame for her cheating.

Her selfish act is owned completely by her.

 

No relationship is perfect, but there is never ANY justification for the decision to destroy people's lives the way that infidelity does.

 

Exactly right. I agree 100%

 

So, I can take a degree of responsibility for the imperfections - it does not make my wife any less responsible for the calculating decision to do what she did. But this frees me to not be so much a victim, and tackle the things I can, to make things better than they are in the areas that are down to me.

 

Thats a good way to look at it. But don't see this or do this in an effort to keep her from cheating. Effort to have a healthy marriage is the desired outcome. One should not have to make an extra effort to keep a spouse from being unfaithful.

[bish]

First of all, your W chose to cheat. She chose to lie. She chose to betray. Why the hell are you "wooing" her?

 

 

Exactly!!!! She should be kissing his feet everyday and thanking god he didn't dump her on her cheating rear end.

[believinZ]

Thanks. A week ago I'd have said no progress despite everything, with her no more than neutral. However (and I take my victories however small) since last week there is a change and she has come to wanting it to work. Of course "one swallow doesn't make a summer", so (to mix my metaphors) I'm not counting my chickens before they're hatched, but we'll see where it goes.

 

You didnt worry me about NC because I dont know what NC stands for! (These abbreviations drive me nuts!) . So what is NC then?

HA... I'm having a difficult time as a newbie figuring out the acronyms as well. Can someone start a starter threat for us newbies explaining them?

 

As for this thread. I understand you Pilgrim. I find myself wooing my husband or trying to be a "better" wife. I was already a good wife I think because ppl in his family would always tell me.."we dont know how you put up with him..or you are such a saint." maybe I am just sadistic or something... or maybe I made vows and believe in them... "for better or worse"... however the A(affair) has left me wounded and hurt and I'm reaching for ...I'm not sure what... reassurance that I am a desirable woman... i dont know. so i woo... but then I get resentful because he acts like this is all in the past and since he has forgiven himself... it should be just as easy for me. I feel obligated for some reason to listen to the 'neutrals" and look at "my part" but then inside of me... I think... why should I... HE DID THIS... i managed to stay faithful even though I was miserable... adn I was honest w/him about how unhappy I was ...he lied and just kept telling me I was dillusional and that he loved me... weird way of showing it. Sure he is a "changed man" now... or is he? I am starting to see old habits reappear and this scares me... so I am not so sure wooing is good... i need to woo me and so should he. THere should be something more... maybe... I dont know...

[shellys-trying]

My H, after dday, thought all he had to do was come home and that was it.

He didn't really want to talk about it (the A & her), and it took some time, but H started to see that what he did hurt me and the kids, and he began to come around and in the last couple yrs it's all come out and been dealt with.

I think if the H is committed to the rebuilding of the M, he'll do whatever you need him to to make you feel safe and secure again.

That's the bottom line. If he doesn't do HIS part and after dday, he's got one helluva chunk, then it won't work out.

If he's not willing to talk to you, work with or if he expects you to do all the M work, then the reconciling is doomed.

He has to do his part. He has to. If he doesn't, then he obviously thinks he got away with the cheating with no reprecussions.

My H found out that I CAN live without him and that I didn't care whether he changed or not, after the first couple yrs after the A ended.

 

He always knew where the door was and when he realized that, he woke his ass up and straightened his part of the M up.

[shellys-trying]

Another thing is, if the H doesn't see what his cheating has done to his W and kids, then he has a good chance of not doing his part in working on the M.