dropdeadlegs Posted June 12, 2007 Posted June 12, 2007 Obviously your inability to forgive your H is because he is NOT being totally honest about what happened. He may think it is more painful for you to hear, but I believe you have the right to ask any question about the A and get completely honest answers. Until you could get the answers you need, and there has to be something more substantial than "I don't know" or "I was a stupid f**k", it will be harder for you to forgive him. I'm not sure he understands that. Of course he just wants to forget the whole thing, and he wants you to forget, too, but he owes you an explanation to anything you wonder about, and he has to be honest no matter how hard it is to do so. I don't see how it can be put in the past without that.
Author Melissa277 Posted June 12, 2007 Author Posted June 12, 2007 THANK YOU dropdeadlegs. That's exactly how I feel. If he can't be honest about A, how can I ever begin to trust him again? I think he's afraid of the truth. He's lied so many times since D-day that he thinks if he tells the whole truth, I will leave again. And I might, but I think I have a right to know when this all started. He won't even tell me that. He says he "can't remember." Yeah, right. On D-day, I asked him how many times he slept with her. He was bawling and said "just once." Three weeks later, it was "twelve." Then a couple of months after that it was "seven." He denies all of this ... because he was so "upset" that he said whatever came to mind. Now, he says it was only "six." ONLY SIX? Is that supposed to make me feel better. I keep asking because he keeps telling me something different. He's still lying and that's why I haven't been able to move on. I don't believe a d*mn word that comes out of his mouth and I supposed to believe that he loves me, always did and this was all just a "stupid f*cking mistake?" He's a lunatic.
Lynna Posted June 12, 2007 Posted June 12, 2007 Yep, he does not want to admit to how bad it was. You are right, he wants to avoid talking about it at all. He wants to put it behind him as if it never happened. My husband lied to me too when I first found out. First he tried to tell me it was a one night stand with a stranger, then he said it happened, but only the one time, then I found the additional proof in his own words, so he could not deny it anymore. My H says he can't remember when the A started. I don't have an exact number for how many times they were together, and don't really want to know that, but I know from the proof I found that it was a lot, though fortunately it only lasted a few months before I found out. I am half debating confronting her again and asking her when it all started. I think women are better at remembering anniversaries and things like how often they were together, stuff like that. I just want to know whether it started before or after our first anniversary. It takes two to allow this to happen, the cheater and the person they cheat with. While he may want to say it is all the OW's fault, it is not. Especially when it happened multiple times. If he REALLY did not want to do it then he would not have. He would have said damn the consequences I am loyal to my wife. If there had been no inappropriate behavior between them then she would not have had ammunition to use against him at work. They are BOTH at fault! He needs to accept that. My husband did, that is one of the reasons I am willing to work on our M, because he acknowledges how badly he screwed up. He recognized how much he hurt me and at the time of dday was willing to do whatever I wanted/needed. We have not really talked about it during the separation time, but as you know with my other post it will have to be talked about again.
dropdeadlegs Posted June 12, 2007 Posted June 12, 2007 Maybe he IS afraid that by telling you every detail that you will leave him, but I think that without knowing everything the chances of you leaving are even higher. Besides that, he is the one who needs forgiveness and he should do whatever it takes to atone for his actions, in any way you feel is necessary. I totally see your side of this quandary. How can you achieve forgiveness if you still feel you are being lied to? I'm sure he does love you, Melissa277, but he is likely feeling so much guilt and shame about hurting you, himself, and destroying all those building blocks of trust and financial security. Still, that is his cross to bear and a lot of humility is what it takes to earn the trust and love you shared before the A. He probably feels like a big pile of $hit, but he might be surprised at how freeing the truth can be. Accepting the scrutiny of your families, and especially you, is the best way to atone. People can be remarkably forgiving when they feel someone is making every effort to accept the responsibility for their error(s.) I'm not sure how to get him to see this. If he could spend time with those who have been betrayed, both those who have forgiven and those who haven't, it would be very beneficial. I guess that's not likely, though, eh?
Mr. Lucky Posted June 12, 2007 Posted June 12, 2007 On D-day, I asked him how many times he slept with her. He was bawling and said "just once." Three weeks later, it was "twelve." Then a couple of months after that it was "seven." He denies all of this ... because he was so "upset" that he said whatever came to mind. Now, he says it was only "six." ONLY SIX? Is that supposed to make me feel better. Please understand that I'm not defending your H, but... Under the present circumstances, what answer could he give to "How many times did you sleep with her?" that would work for you? Mr. Lucky
Author Melissa277 Posted June 13, 2007 Author Posted June 13, 2007 Please understand that I'm not defending your H, but... Under the present circumstances, what answer could he give to "How many times did you sleep with her?" that would work for you? Mr. Lucky Don't make me laugh, it's not funny. LOL. Just the damn truth. That's all I want. On D-day, when he said "only once" I knew he was lying because of the reason he lost his job. (I haven't given the gory details of the lost job thing because I've kept that juicy little tidbit from my kids. I don't want them hurt anymore than they've already been hurt by this, but let's just say that the reason they got fired is totally humiliating for him and her.) Then during a fight several weeks after D-day, he said it was only seven times. He had forgotten that in between those two numbers, he had told me twelve times. I called him on it and that's when he said "he didn't say that (one or twelve or whatever number popped into his head at the time) and if he did "he was upset" or some BS like that. I guess it's not how many times, it's that he just can't seem to bring himself to tell the truth no matter what.
Author Melissa277 Posted June 13, 2007 Author Posted June 13, 2007 First of all, you are a great writer. The whole "trip and fall" bit had me in hysterics. And I can totally relate to the quote above and the "stranger in a strange land" description...or fog...or feeling like I surely must have brain tumor because my head hurts all the time (knowing full well it is just tension). And my H has only broken my heart with an EA...for the second time, however. Hopefully your outlet and discoveries here on LS will bring about the best choices for you... Why, thank you mountain girl. You know, I do what I can. It's funny you mention having a headache all the time ... I've had one for like four days. Maybe I do have a brain tumor. God, I hope so. I could use a good brain tumor ... maybe break up the day a little bit.
Lynna Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 Wow, things must be bad if you are wishing a brain tumor on yourself! Hmmm, if you are starting to think about ways to break up the day, that is a pretty positive sign! Shows you are starting to break out of the glums I think!
Mr. Lucky Posted June 13, 2007 Posted June 13, 2007 Don't make me laugh, it's not funny. LOL. Just the damn truth. That's all I want. On D-day, when he said "only once" I knew he was lying because of the reason he lost his job. (I haven't given the gory details of the lost job thing because I've kept that juicy little tidbit from my kids. I don't want them hurt anymore than they've already been hurt by this, but let's just say that the reason they got fired is totally humiliating for him and her.) Then during a fight several weeks after D-day, he said it was only seven times. He had forgotten that in between those two numbers, he had told me twelve times. I called him on it and that's when he said "he didn't say that (one or twelve or whatever number popped into his head at the time) and if he did "he was upset" or some BS like that. I guess it's not how many times, it's that he just can't seem to bring himself to tell the truth no matter what. I hate to rub salt in the wound, but, in a 11-month A, the answer might be "more times than he can accurately remember". What I still don't understand is, once you've established that he cheated once, why is the number beyond that (6? 7? 12?) important? Does it make his crime lesser or greater in your eyes? Once I found out that my wife had cheated, I never asked her how many times. I didn't want to know and ultimately it didn't matter... Mr. Lucky
Author Melissa277 Posted June 14, 2007 Author Posted June 14, 2007 I hate to rub salt in the wound, but, in a 11-month A, the answer might be "more times than he can accurately remember". What I still don't understand is, once you've established that he cheated once, why is the number beyond that (6? 7? 12?) important? Does it make his crime lesser or greater in your eyes? Once I found out that my wife had cheated, I never asked her how many times. I didn't want to know and ultimately it didn't matter... Mr. Lucky Jesus Mr. Lucky, you're killin' me here with these numbers. I know what your saying but when he had to come home and tell me that he had gotten fired and why, he said it was all his fault. And when he told me what the reason was, I was in total shock. I said to him "Oh, my God, did you f*ck her?" And he said (bawling and sobbing) "Once, only once." And then I said "I am so effing outta here" and I packed up and left and drove five hours home to my sisters. Then a couple of weeks later, when I talked to him for the first time, more of the details of the firing came out and that's when I asked him how many times he had really been with her because his story did not make any sense and he said "not many, maybe twelve." And I said "twelve?" and I hung up. And then when I talked to him again maybe a week later, he tried to make it seem like it was a one-night-stand-drunken-stupor thing again and I said "I don't believe you, you already told me you f*cked her twelve times." And then he denied saying that and then told me it was only "seven." So, my point is, he's a certifiable liar and wouldn't know the truth if it slapped him in the face. That's why the number means so much, because he keeps changing his story. But you're right, no matter what the number is he's a lyin', cheatin', job losin', betrayin' SOB.
Mr. Lucky Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 I guess my realization (and this was just in my case, I understand each situation is different) was that an extra-marital affair is just one big lie in itself. It's based on betrayal, deception, half-truths and outright lies. So, even though every BS (initially, myself included) goes down that road of looking for nuggets of truth (When? Where? How Many Times?), it's ultimately a worthless exercise along the lines of arguing how many angels fit on the head of a pin. And the search for the "truth" really doesn't have a whole lot to do with where your marriage is now. One time or a hundred, your challenge is still the same - forgive or not? Go or stay? I hope you figure it all out in a way that works for you... Mr. Lucky
Author Melissa277 Posted June 14, 2007 Author Posted June 14, 2007 I guess my realization (and this was just in my case, I understand each situation is different) was that an extra-marital affair is just one big lie in itself. It's based on betrayal, deception, half-truths and outright lies. So, even though every BS (initially, myself included) goes down that road of looking for nuggets of truth (When? Where? How Many Times?), it's ultimately a worthless exercise along the lines of arguing how many angels fit on the head of a pin. And the search for the "truth" really doesn't have a whole lot to do with where your marriage is now. One time or a hundred, your challenge is still the same - forgive or not? Go or stay? I hope you figure it all out in a way that works for you... Mr. Lucky You know what? You are absolutely right. I have wasted so much time and energy trying to get at the truth ... because I wanted so much to believe his version of what happened and yet in my heart knowing full well that he is a liar and a cheater who is never going to tell me why or what exactly happened. He (was/is/will) do anything to protect his own *ss. I now realize that he ever cared about me at all and by taking him back, I just eased his guilty conscience. I guess that says it all, doesn't it? I've got to start thinking about getting the H-E-DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS out of here.
Lynna Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 If he consistently refuses to talk about it or to give you a reason why it happened, maybe he is refusing to examine himself. My H at least was willing to discuss why he did what he did, and most of it was a result of self-esteem issues and problems from the past. Part of it was lack of communication between us, we had gotten into a kind of a rut. His acknowledgement of what drove him to have the A made it possible for us as a couple to heal what was wrong in our relationship and for him as an individual to begin to heal what issues he has. Ultimately we will be stronger for this I believe. But that only came from both of us talking and wanting to work on fixing things. Since your H is not helping heal the relationship, if he is not willing to do marriage counseling with you, then maybe you are right, maybe you need to start thinking about all your options as hard as that is. Maybe it is time that you start looking after you. Start looking for jobs. Start getting out of the house more, join a local group or volunteer somewhere. Do things that make you feel good. Treat him like a roommate. Be polite but nothing more. Don't argue with him anymore. Be distant. See how he reacts.
Author Melissa277 Posted June 14, 2007 Author Posted June 14, 2007 That's why I'm finding my freakin' life so hard. He says he was always happy and has never stopped loving me. That he got drunk, she came on to him and he f*cked her (his words, not mine) and that's all there was to it. He felt terrible about it the next day but, unfortunately for him, when he tried to explain it to her, she wouldn't take no for an answer and kept pursuing him. He said she acted like a lunatic at work every time he told her it was over, that he loved me and not her, and that people at work kept coming to him complaining and asking what her problem was. He says he was just so afraid that she would tell and he that would lose me and his job (both ended up happening) that he couldn't end it. (BTW, they were both upper management, but he was her boss.) He says there was no reason why he did it other than he was stupid and then he couldn't get out. I don't know if he's telling the truth, that it was just a terrible, terrible mistake on his part or if he is refusing to face whatever drove him to this. If he was so unhappy in the M, why would he spend a year trying to get me back? Why wouldn't he tell me why he was unhappy in the first place? He says there was absolutely nothing wrong with our M, that he was never unhappy. So, what do I do? Do I believe him and forgive? I've tried, but so far I haven't been able to that even though we are technically back "together." (I sleep in the guest room, so I am actually a roommate.) Or, do I leave him for good, get a D, and try to live my life without him? God, give me strength ... As Mr. Lucky pointed out though ... the truth really doesn't matter because he did lie and he did cheat and I couldn't see that before.
bish Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 You need to stay away from him. He destroyed your life in more ways than just cheating on you. He ruined you all financially, and destroyed the trust from a loving faithful wife. You might just think about cutting your losses, getting out on your own and making your own way. Because he sure isn't going to do you any good. I don't know if you have to share in the losses and debt in a divorce, but I'd say since there isn't anything left of the 401K to take your half off, I'd leave him and let him deal with the debt. Save yourself financially and emotionally. Lance this boil.
mountain girl Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 Why, thank you mountain girl. You know, I do what I can. It's funny you mention having a headache all the time ... I've had one for like four days. Maybe I do have a brain tumor. God, I hope so. I could use a good brain tumor ... maybe break up the day a little bit. Now you just stop that...I am laughing hysterically which makes my tumor hurt worse!!!!
Darth Vader Posted June 14, 2007 Posted June 14, 2007 That's why I'm finding my freakin' life so hard. He says he was always happy and has never stopped loving me. That he got drunk, she came on to him and he f*cked her (his words, not mine) and that's all there was to it. He felt terrible about it the next day but, unfortunately for him, when he tried to explain it to her, she wouldn't take no for an answer and kept pursuing him. He said she acted like a lunatic at work every time he told her it was over, that he loved me and not her, and that people at work kept coming to him complaining and asking what her problem was. He says he was just so afraid that she would tell and he that would lose me and his job (both ended up happening) that he couldn't end it. (BTW, they were both upper management, but he was her boss.) He says there was no reason why he did it other than he was stupid and then he couldn't get out. I don't know if he's telling the truth, that it was just a terrible, terrible mistake on his part or if he is refusing to face whatever drove him to this. If he was so unhappy in the M, why would he spend a year trying to get me back? Why wouldn't he tell me why he was unhappy in the first place? He says there was absolutely nothing wrong with our M, that he was never unhappy. So, what do I do? Do I believe him and forgive? I've tried, but so far I haven't been able to that even though we are technically back "together." (I sleep in the guest room, so I am actually a roommate.) Or, do I leave him for good, get a D, and try to live my life without him? God, give me strength ... As Mr. Lucky pointed out though ... the truth really doesn't matter because he did lie and he did cheat and I couldn't see that before. Enough about HIM, What do you want? Do you want to leave him, and find someone else, or do you want to make this marriage work? Simple as that, those are your choices.(Notice how I left cheating on him out, don't lower yourself like that!) I know, as well as others here know, that you've had your fair share of chances to cheat, but didn't, because you didn't want to hurt your husband, I wish he would've done the same.
Author Melissa277 Posted June 15, 2007 Author Posted June 15, 2007 Enough about HIM, What do you want? Do you want to leave him, and find someone else, or do you want to make this marriage work? Simple as that, those are your choices.(Notice how I left cheating on him out, don't lower yourself like that!) I know, as well as others here know, that you've had your fair share of chances to cheat, but didn't, because you didn't want to hurt your husband, I wish he would've done the same. I don't know what I want. That's the problem. One day I love him and want the marriage to work. The next day I hate him and think he's a fraud and a liar whom I can't trust. I do know I'm scared I'm going to get hurt again. And I will never, ever go through this kind of pain again. EVER. I won't cheat on him, not as long as we're still married. Believe you me, I've thought about though. I would love a little revenge on him but fortunately (or unfortunately depending on how you look at it) I haven't seen or spoken to one man since this sh*t happened that I would even consider sleeping with. Do I have problems or what???? I think he truly is sorry, I'm just not sure if he's sorry he cheated or sorry he got caught. But either way, he's definitely sorry.
Lynna Posted June 15, 2007 Posted June 15, 2007 It is okay to not know what you want. It still has not been that long, though in some ways I am sure it feels that way. But you have been through so much since then that it is making it even harder to get through it all. Keep looking after yourself, do things to make yourself happy and fulfilled in every other way except your marriage. If you can feel strong and good personally then it should make it easier to deal with this, hopefully! I know financially you might not be able to get formal counseling right now, but there are some places, espcially churches that have counseling available for free or for a very small donation. I would not go to a strict one however, you need to find one where they are supporting of your needs and won't just take a black and white approach.
Author Melissa277 Posted June 15, 2007 Author Posted June 15, 2007 You need to stay away from him. He destroyed your life in more ways than just cheating on you. He ruined you all financially, and destroyed the trust from a loving faithful wife. You might just think about cutting your losses, getting out on your own and making your own way. Because he sure isn't going to do you any good. I don't know if you have to share in the losses and debt in a divorce, but I'd say since there isn't anything left of the 401K to take your half off, I'd leave him and let him deal with the debt. Save yourself financially and emotionally. Lance this boil. Geez, Bish. Don't beat around the bush. Just come out and say what you feel. And you know, I've called him a lot of things in the past year, but "boil" wasn't one of them. I'm looking forward to adding that to the many *sshols, SOBs, cheaters, liars, etc. Seriously though, thanx. I needed to hear the absolute bottom line. I just don't know about the $, maybe that is what's holding me back. I'm so afraid I'm gonna be homeless because of what he did. Especially after working my whole freakin' life. Melissa
bish Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 Geez, Bish. Don't beat around the bush. Just come out and say what you feel. And you know, I've called him a lot of things in the past year, but "boil" wasn't one of them. I'm looking forward to adding that to the many *sshols, SOBs, cheaters, liars, etc. Seriously though, thanx. I needed to hear the absolute bottom line. I just don't know about the $, maybe that is what's holding me back. I'm so afraid I'm gonna be homeless because of what he did. Especially after working my whole freakin' life. Melissa I know. Been through those emotions myself. But really, you can only improve your financial situation by leaving him. And leave him with all the debt.
Lynna Posted June 16, 2007 Posted June 16, 2007 I just don't know about the $, maybe that is what's holding me back. I'm so afraid I'm gonna be homeless because of what he did. Especially after working my whole freakin' life. It is okay to be afraid. You have been together for a very long time. Change is hard, especially when it is so life-altering as this. You are not rushing into things, so that is good. And given your financial situation, you are justified in having another level of fear. You have a few options (and I am sure there are others I have not thought of). First, if you do decide to break things off you have to decide where you want to live. If you want to stay nearby, move to be close to your family and friends, or move back to where you were before. Possibilities: 1) he should give you alimony and support you since you are not working right now and since he caused your current situation (but you know what the financial situation is so there might not be all that much support even if court ordered) 2) you could move back to your old house that you still have and are still paying for and find a job back in your old town (that may bring back bad memories - but maybe you still have a lot of good friends there?) 3) you could move back in with family or friends and start looking for a job in that area, or 4) you can find a good job where you are now before kicking him out (or moving out yourself) and then you will know you can support yourself.
Mr. Lucky Posted June 17, 2007 Posted June 17, 2007 I just don't know about the $, maybe that is what's holding me back. I'm so afraid I'm gonna be homeless because of what he did. Especially after working my whole freakin' life. I'm sure it's occurred to you, but all this moving around (deposits, moving bills, turn this on, turn that off, etc.) is putting you in an even deeper financial hole. Why not take control yourself and go back to whatever locale worked best for YOU financially? Your H can then decide (assuming you want him) to follow you for a change... Mr. Lucky
Seen_It_All Posted June 17, 2007 Posted June 17, 2007 You know, I was under the impression that all these "slobbering" married men were cheating with a partner. Typically a female and oftentimes a married female partner. So if that makes him "a jack-ass and letting his genitals think FOR him", what description do you have for the other half of the tango (as in "it takes two") couple? Mr. LuckyHey, I'm not sticking up for the women who are just as eager to jump in the sack WITH these cretins. The point I was making is that sometimes you don't have to over-analyze WHY a MM has an affair - it's not always about him being unhappy or miserable. Sometimes it's simply because he wanted to bed down someone he finds sexually attractive and nothing more than that. Melissa was saying that she's going crazy trying to figure out why her H did what he did and he keeps saying "I don't KNOW." Sometimes the simplistic - but truthful - reason is simply because he was thinking with his nether-regions.
Mr. Lucky Posted June 17, 2007 Posted June 17, 2007 Hey, I'm not sticking up for the women who are just as eager to jump in the sack WITH these cretins. The point I was making is that sometimes you don't have to over-analyze WHY a MM has an affair - it's not always about him being unhappy or miserable. Sometimes it's simply because he wanted to bed down someone he finds sexually attractive and nothing more than that. Melissa was saying that she's going crazy trying to figure out why her H did what he did and he keeps saying "I don't KNOW." Sometimes the simplistic - but truthful - reason is simply because he was thinking with his nether-regions. What you say is true - my point was simply that it applies to both sexes. For many women also, the reasons they cheat don't have much to with their spouses or the quality of their marriage... Mr. Lucky
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