Sobri821 Posted June 4, 2007 Posted June 4, 2007 I see it everyday. Couples who live together, share apartments, bank accounts, and lives together. They are highly involved with each others families and share the same friends. They are a unit, but they are not married. Example, My mom and step-dad have been together for 28 years and are still not married. (He is the only father I know and love thus he is Daddy). In the eyes of God, law, and society they are not married, yet their lifestyle is that of a married couple. Some states even have health insurance policy for couples in these situations. My question is, if people can live basically as man and wife without saying “I do”, what are these “changes” that we all keep hearing about occur after getting married? I am all for marriage and hope one day to be married to my current partner. I keep hearing people say that so and so is not ready to be married and that they themselves are not ready for the change. “Marriage changes everything”. What does it change? If you and you partner live together already, and share EVERYTHING what can formally being married actually change? Is it a psychological phenomenon? What does being ready for married mean? Is financial? If so, aren’t couples supposed to grow with each other? Shouldn’t they start with an apartment and move on to bigger and better things? Or is it better to wait until BAM you have the career, house, and minivan and then get married?
quankanne Posted June 4, 2007 Posted June 4, 2007 I'd say that marriage is primarily psychological in nature (outside the obvious legal component) – that you start looking at things in terms of we and us, rather than you or I. Hard to explain, but your mindset definitely changes when you marry because of the we/us factor, and the commitment level often deepens. And I think the same goes for those folks like your parents, who, even though they are not legally wed, still have that emotional and psychological vow of marriage that they share. interestingly enough, there are some states (Texas is one) that recognize a union like your folks' as a common-law marriage, which I *believe* has the same legal "oomph" as does a regular marriage.
corazoncito Posted June 4, 2007 Posted June 4, 2007 Wow! This is a toughie but a goodie. I'm curious to see what others will post. From my part, I think commitment changes everything. For some people that means marriage, for others it may be a more personal agreement between a couple. To me, commitment is deciding to put the relationship first, often before your own needs, and being able to count on your partner to do the same. It also means truly accepting your partner for who they are, right this minute, not who you hope they will become in 6 months, 2 years, etc. Those are both huge steps and I don't think a lot of couples really think through what they mean before they move in together or get married. I think it is possible to live together without marriage and have a true commitment. I think it is great when committed couples get married. I think a lot of people get married without really thinking about what commitment means. I think cohabitating couples can make this same mistake. But simply living together, in my opinion, without thinking about and discussing these larger issues does not make you ready for marriage. I'm thinking specifically of couples who decide to move in together principally to save money and since they spend a lot of time together anyway. And after a few years go by, why not get married? Well, sure you do many things a married/committed couple do on a day to day basis, but what really matters is being willing to stick it out happily with your partner, make long-term decisions that are in the best interest of your relationship, and sometimes be willing to put your partner's needs first in the short-term, because it's the best thing for both of you in the long-term. It's at that point (when personal wants have to be put on hold for the long-term good of the relationship) that I've seen a lot of cohabitating and married couples break up/divorce.
LuminousZ Posted June 4, 2007 Posted June 4, 2007 “Marriage changes everything”. What does it change? quankanne and corazoncito sum it up pretty well!! your mindset definitely changes when you marry because of the we/us factor, and the commitment level often deepens. commitment is deciding to put the relationship first, often before your own needs, and being able to count on your partner to do the same. Make long-term decisions that are in the best interest of your relationship, and sometimes be willing to put your partner's needs first in the short-term, because it's the best thing for both of you in the long-term. I recently tied the knot (May 26, '07) and I've never felt closer to anyone in my life.., Its very exciting and I enjoy the comfort of making long term decisions / plans WITH her.
Mr. Lucky Posted June 4, 2007 Posted June 4, 2007 I think it is possible to live together without marriage and have a true commitment. I think it is great when committed couples get married. I think a lot of people get married without really thinking about what commitment means. I think cohabitating couples can make this same mistake. Without worrying about how this sounds, I think the real value of marriage is that it makes it harder to get OUT of the relationship. When a couple runs into problems - as most invariably do - marriage helps remove "cut and run" as one of the initial proposed solutions. The legal structure of marriage also helps protect the more financially disadvantaged parties (usually women and children) from the effects of separation, illness or death. Let me ask this question. If a couple is living together, accumulating possessions together, buying a house together and having kids together - why wouldn't they want to get married ? Mr. Lucky
corazoncito Posted June 4, 2007 Posted June 4, 2007 Without worrying about how this sounds, I think the real value of marriage is that it makes it harder to get OUT of the relationship. When a couple runs into problems - as most invariably do - marriage helps remove "cut and run" as one of the initial proposed solutions. Yes, I was actually thinking this, but didn't say it because I didn't want to sound too cynical! But it's true, it forces you to have a "cooling down" period (although from some of the stories I've read on LS, it seems to just prolong a lot of peoples' agony). And I guess for those in the United States who want to kick up a notch, you can opt for a covenant marriages in some states, which requires you to do counseling and have a mandatory waiting period before divorcing. The legal structure of marriage also helps protect the more financially disadvantaged parties (usually women and children) from the effects of separation, illness or death. Yes, also important. In the case of me and my partner, his country offers us a legal civil union that does just this, outside of marriage. Let me ask this question. If a couple is living together, accumulating possessions together, buying a house together and having kids together - why wouldn't they want to get married ? If a couple believes that marriage is necessary to legitimate those activities and they are committed to a lifetime together, then, sure, it makes sense to get married. But that may not always be the case for every couple. Some people bumble their way through life, even big life events such as those. I don't know if marriage is always a good idea for them. What would it accomplish? To me, marriage is an affirmation of a commitment between two people that already exists prior to filing the papers to make it legal. It's not a way to create commitment in bad circumstances or improve a dysfunctional relationship. Also, even if they are committed, the need to marry or not depends on cultural values that vary from group to group (can you tell that I'm an anthropologist? ). For instance my partner and I are from two different countries (to make it more complicated we live in a third ). Marriage is common where I'm from and considered necessary to have a legitimate relationship and legitimate children by many people (Although I don't agree with that attitude). Where he is from, those beliefs are not widely shared. Of course some people choose to get married, but it's not the only accepted way to have a committed relationship. So who's to say that my country's beliefs are right and his are wrong, or vice versa? What's important in our case is that we have declared a personal commitment to each other and therefore will resolve this issue in a way that we can both live with.
Mr. Lucky Posted June 4, 2007 Posted June 4, 2007 Marriage is common where I'm from and considered necessary to have a legitimate relationship and legitimate children by many people You've touched on what is for me the central issue. Children thrive on stability, connection and structure, and marriage, while it doesn't ensure, helps provide that. My wife is an elementary school teacher, until recently working at an "at risk" school on the poor side of town. Her last year there, only 8 of 32 students in her 5th grade class lived in a conventional nuclear household with Mom and Dad. The other 75% lived with a single parent, grandparents or Dad and his "Babymomma". It's a "chicken and egg" situation - does poverty produce less familiy structure or is it the other way around? I don't know... Mr. Lucky
Curmudgeon Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 And there's more. Much more. Besides the legitimacy, stability and commitment a full marriage betokens there are such things as rights of survivorship, of course the tax issues, medical advance directives and, depending upon your state, a potential host of other "complications" marriage can quell. While the stigma of bastardy is far less an issue now than ever before, there are still states with a sense of history and tradition does not favor more "casual" relationships. I think it unfortunate that America appears to have lost it's ability and capacity for outrage over the degredation of morals in our society as a whole and the out-of-wedlock birth statistics and those of dissolution, criminality and dependence upon social programs are the inevitable results. Then again, I'm comparitively old! As always, just one man's opinion!
Mr. Lucky Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 the out-of-wedlock birth statistics and those of dissolution, criminality and dependence upon social programs are the inevitable results. I'm always dismayed at posters here that start off by saying something like "My girlfriend of 3 years and I aren't getting along anymore and she's started seeing someone else". Then halfway into the story, they add (as if it were an afterthought) "We have a one-year old child together". They come here asking "What's going to happen to me?" and I always think "What's going to happen to your child?". It does seem like one more aspect of the decline of our country Mr. Lucky
Author Sobri821 Posted June 5, 2007 Author Posted June 5, 2007 I don't know, the question was more about what changes after two people are married. I did not expect to debate about children born out of wedlock. Thanks for those who answered.
corazoncito Posted June 5, 2007 Posted June 5, 2007 I don't know, the question was more about what changes after two people are married. I did not expect to debate about children born out of wedlock. Thanks for those who answered. You're right, this did get a bit off topic. To get back on topic, let's just agree to assume that commitment=marriage. I think the most important point is that when you get married, you have to put the relationship first when facing important decisions. Couples who live real commitment often find their breaking point when one individual is forced to choose between what they want right now and what is best for the two of them as a couple in the long-run. A committed couple will find a solution to that problem. These decisions can involve managing finances, job opportunities, where you choose to live, if/when you're going to have kids and how many, dealing with serious illnesses, etc. And the reality is that a nice 50/50 compromise that makes both equally happy right now is not always a possibility. What you hope for is that in the long-term the average of all of those joint decisions produces a life that makes both partners happy. Also, when you're married, the health of the relationship can't be judged from the happiness of only one person. It's shocking sometimes to hear about the petty things that people divorce over (and that were usually already happening before they decided to get married). When you're married, you have agreed to accept the other person as they are now, promise to learn to deal with the ways in which they will inevitably change and grow in the future, and you won't sweat the small stuff. Here's a tip that will save you a lot of grief in marriage. Make a list of the things that really annoy you about your partner (short of abuse and pathological financial irresponsibility). I mean the thing that just drive you nuts! Now cut it by at least 75%. If you want to remain a happy and sane couple, that 25% is now what you are still allowed to get upset about. And even then, you still have to be respectful and kind when you discuss them with your partner to find a solution. And, honestly, if it's something like he never washes the dishes, sometimes that solution is that you learn to live with it and wash the dishes yourself. Maybe he takes care of other chores/responsibilities that you hate. If you are complaining about how your partner is hard to live with, ask yourself honestly how easy it is to live with you. That can help you put things in perspective.
Author Sobri821 Posted June 5, 2007 Author Posted June 5, 2007 So I take it that Marriage is a bond deeper than sharing an apartment, more than paying bills together and knowing each others family. Marriage is you becoming that person's family. Breaking up is hard on any couple, but I cannot even begin to imagine the pain a separation/divorce can bring someone. I asked this question because I needed to know that marriage was indeed something special. Something that once entered was as different as any bond that two people could share. I want marriage to be more than just a formality, a ceremony where I wear a white dress. I want it to be more than just legal stuff. I am not religious, but i think in someway I can see why co-habitation is frowned upon, it sorts of brings down the importance (cheapens it). It's almost if law and society approves these things, what then happens to the institution of marriage. Coming from a home where my parents are not married to each other and I am 27 years old. I do not consider myself a bastard, and I feel that my family is as normal and as dysfunctional as any other. Someone wrote above that, if people love each other why not get married? I asked my mom last night why she and my father are not married. She told me that they are.
Curmudgeon Posted June 6, 2007 Posted June 6, 2007 So I take it that Marriage is a bond deeper than sharing an apartment, more than paying bills together and knowing each others family. Marriage is you becoming that person's family. Breaking up is hard on any couple, but I cannot even begin to imagine the pain a separation/divorce can bring someone. I asked this question because I needed to know that marriage was indeed something special. Something that once entered was as different as any bond that two people could share. I want marriage to be more than just a formality, a ceremony where I wear a white dress. I want it to be more than just legal stuff. I am not religious, but i think in someway I can see why co-habitation is frowned upon, it sorts of brings down the importance (cheapens it). It's almost if law and society approves these things, what then happens to the institution of marriage. Coming from a home where my parents are not married to each other and I am 27 years old. I do not consider myself a bastard, and I feel that my family is as normal and as dysfunctional as any other. Someone wrote above that, if people love each other why not get married? I asked my mom last night why she and my father are not married. She told me that they are. Your parents obviously have a marriage of conscience and that's as binding for them as any ceremony will ever be. My wife and I lived together for about six weeks and neither of us was totally comfortable with the idea, nor did we wish to continue in that mode. We both wanted to marry, and did, to each other even! It's a very personal choice and it was indeed, and remains almost 11 years later, something very special. For us it's a matter of belonging, commitment, promise, love and constancy. It's what worked for us then and what works for us now. I think it does create a deeper and more lasting bond (emotionally rather than just legally) than a more "casual" relationship and it does, indeed, give us pause and unite us as two who put one another and their relationship first. As Corozancito said, it's not always 50/50. Because of the "forever" commitment there's a lot of give-and-take and sometimes we simply agree to disagree. A marriage is not two halves coming together to make a whole. It's two wholes coming together and enhancing one another. Perhaps it's all bolstered by the realization that because of our vows, religious or otherwise, and our legal status, there's no "easy" way out. That also enhances the desire and willingness to work things out, to collaborate, to commiserate to be a true couple with all the frailties and strengths that entails.
rainfall Posted June 6, 2007 Posted June 6, 2007 Let me ask this question. If a couple is living together, accumulating possessions together, buying a house together and having kids together - why wouldn't they want to get married ? Mr. Lucky Well this question would apply to me except for the kid part. We both agree that we never want children. I for one just don't see why I need to get married. We already share everything so why bother getting married? I would rather be with someone who is with me by choice and who is happy to be there, then to be with someone who only comes home to me because a piece of paper says he has to be there.
corazoncito Posted June 6, 2007 Posted June 6, 2007 Well this question would apply to me except for the kid part. We both agree that we never want children. I for one just don't see why I need to get married. We already share everything so why bother getting married? I would rather be with someone who is with me by choice and who is happy to be there, then to be with someone who only comes home to me because a piece of paper says he has to be there. I think if you are happy without marriage, that's what's best for you and it doesn't diminish your relationship. Ok, I think I'm taking us off-topic again. As I mentioned above, where my partner is from, marriage is becoming less and less popular, especially among those under 50. The trend is toward living together with an "unofficial" commitment between partners or a legal civil union. And these are long-term, stable, happy relationships with children and shared property. If you met these people, you wouldn't realize they weren't married, except they don't wear rings. When I've asked these people why they don't marry, their answer is 99% of the time what Rainfall said above. And they don't feel this way because they're being "tempted" by the allure of cohabitating couples. They feel this way after seeing dysfunctional marriages where people stay together out of obligation. Or they divorce after making a only half-assed effort (usually less than 2 years, lots of infidelity). Perhaps the institution of marriage is being sullied, but its not by the cohabitating couples. It's by people who rush into marriage (because it's what you're "supposed" to do) and have no clue what real commitment and responsibility are. Or people who think that marriage will make them a stronger couple (if you're not strong to begin with, I don't think $50 and 10 minutes with a justice of the peace is going to solve that issue). I don't think marriage is inherently bad or good. It depends on the couple. I'm not against marriage and I truly respect those couples who enter into it having thought about it first. But I get annoyed when people imply that you can't have a real commitment without marriage or that a couple who is married is automatically more committed than one who isn't. What makes a good marriage is the commitment and love. And not every couple needs a certificate from their government to trust that they share those feelings.
Mr. Lucky Posted June 7, 2007 Posted June 7, 2007 Well this question would apply to me except for the kid part. We both agree that we never want children. I for one just don't see why I need to get married. We already share everything so why bother getting married? I would rather be with someone who is with me by choice and who is happy to be there, then to be with someone who only comes home to me because a piece of paper says he has to be there. I respect your choice Rainfall, but I still don't understand. In my eyes, you give up nothing and gain quite a bit by having your relationship legally sanctioned. And, from your post count here on LoveShack, you know that the "piece of paper" doesn't keep couples together Regardless, to each his own... Mr. Lucky
Author Sobri821 Posted June 7, 2007 Author Posted June 7, 2007 When I've asked these people why they don't marry, their answer is 99% of the time what Rainfall said above. And they don't feel this way because they're being "tempted" by the allure of cohabitating couples. They feel this way after seeing dysfunctional marriages where people stay together out of obligation. Or they divorce after making a only half-assed effort (usually less than 2 years, lots of infidelity). Perhaps the institution of marriage is being sullied, but its not by the cohabitating couples. It's by people who rush into marriage (because it's what you're "supposed" to do) and have no clue what real commitment and responsibility are. Or people who think that marriage will make them a stronger couple (if you're not strong to begin with, I don't think $50 and 10 minutes with a justice of the peace is going to solve that issue). I don't think marriage is inherently bad or good. It depends on the couple. I'm not against marriage and I truly respect those couples who enter into it having thought about it first. But I get annoyed when people imply that you can't have a real commitment without marriage or that a couple who is married is automatically more committed than one who isn't. What makes a good marriage is the commitment and love. And not every couple needs a certificate from their government to trust that they share those feelings. Very well put. Maybe it is not the unmarried people but the married people who give up. or seem constantly unhappy. Think of all the negative connotations, ball and chain, loss of freedom, lack of attraction, no more sex. Why is marriage so associated with these things. Also, just reading the posts on LoveShack, can hint the same.
silktricks Posted June 8, 2007 Posted June 8, 2007 Very well put. Maybe it is not the unmarried people but the married people who give up. or seem constantly unhappy. Think of all the negative connotations, ball and chain, loss of freedom, lack of attraction, no more sex. Why is marriage so associated with these things. Also, just reading the posts on LoveShack, can hint the same. It's been the "popular" thing to bash marriage for quite sometime now. The bashing doesn't make marriage a bad thing, but it's unfortunate that in America anyway so many people do love to hate it. My H and I lived together for a few years prior to getting married (it was the 2nd marriage for both of us.) We may have never married, except that he could see I was being treated differently (poorly) be many of the people in our social circle, and he didn't want that for me. (He wasn't being treated badly, just me - another difference between how men and women are viewed by society) He was, hoever, very worried that my attitude toward him would change after we married, as he had seen it happen with many friends and relatives. I also had seen those changes and was also concerned. Someone above mentioned that marriage is useful as "glue" during the bad times in marriage, and though I think there may be something to that, I think the strongest glue is the shared love in a relationship. A marriage certificate can be torn far more easily than can the deep and abiding love that two people have for each other, even during the absolutely worst of times.
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