Altering the perspective

[Ripples]

I wish I could

 

When I first came here there were many posts, even threads, talking about how the OW should dump the MM in their lives because they were worth more than a part time lover, that any OW, just like any woman, deserved a healthy relationship where both parties were true to each other and themselves. The posts would say how damaging an affair was to them, the OW. In summary, the posts were supportive. Not condoning the OW actions, but not condemning them either.

 

Nowadays there seems to be more and more posts whose tone deride the OW, indicate that she has no morals, that she should consider the wife, that she's not worth anything... etc. etc. Condemnation, condemnation, condemnation.

 

I can understand the hurt felt by BS as I was one of them. I dearly would have loved the opportunity to scream my pain at every OW in the world. But given a little space and time, and some excellent advice by Lindya, LadyJane (where is LJ, btw?) and others, I see things a little differently now. I now feel that battering an OW will do nothing to change her mind, could well undermine her self-esteem and could further entrench her position. Infact, the complete reverse of what the condemning post is apparently setting out to do.

 

Ok, there seem to be a couple of OW who appear to have no moral code and still others who appear to be so bitter, that there is nothing that someone on the other side of a computer screen can do to make them see any other course of action than the one they are currently on.

 

However, I feel that there are many women out there who find themselves in a situation that they know, deep down is bad for them, but can't find the strength to change it, surely its for those women that LS is here for? Surely barraging them with disparagement will do nothing to help them remove themselves from a course of self-destruction? And surely we, as adults, know that encouragement is a far more effective tool than an axe?

 

Just a thought

 

[Longing]

Being new to this site and a former (?) OW, I GREATLY appreciate your perspective. I was surprised by the condemning tone of many of the postings- especially when OW/OM are seeking support in making healthier choices for themselves. OW/OM often don't have a lot of people to connect with who can understand where they are and how they got there. Very few people actively decide to be an OW/OM. Thank you for your compassion (which is even greater since you have been a BS).

[NearlyThere]

I wish I could

 

When I first came here there were many posts, even threads, talking about how the OW should dump the MM in their lives because they were worth more than a part time lover, that any OW, just like any woman, deserved a healthy relationship where both parties were true to each other and themselves. The posts would say how damaging an affair was to them, the OW. In summary, the posts were supportive. Not condoning the OW actions, but not condemning them either.

 

Nowadays there seems to be more and more posts whose tone deride the OW, indicate that she has no morals, that she should consider the wife, that she's not worth anything... etc. etc. Condemnation, condemnation, condemnation.

 

I can understand the hurt felt by BS as I was one of them. I dearly would have loved the opportunity to scream my pain at every OW in the world. But given a little space and time, and some excellent advice by Lindya, LadyJane (where is LJ, btw?) and others, I see things a little differently now. I now feel that battering an OW will do nothing to change her mind, could well undermine her self-esteem and could further entrench her position. Infact, the complete reverse of what the condemning post is apparently setting out to do.

 

Ok, there seem to be a couple of OW who appear to have no moral code and still others who appear to be so bitter, that there is nothing that someone on the other side of a computer screen can do to make them see any other course of action than the one they are currently on.

 

However, I feel that there are many women out there who find themselves in a situation that they know, deep down is bad for them, but can't find the strength to change it, surely its for those women that LS is here for? Surely barraging them with disparagement will do nothing to help them remove themselves from a course of self-destruction? And surely we, as adults, know that encouragement is a far more effective tool than an axe?

 

Just a thought

 

 

I would just like to say thank-you Ripples, I have always found you and several other BS's on here very thoughtful and careful in your replies. I maintain its not what you say, its the way that you say it.

[Jinxx]

I wish I could

 

When I first came here there were many posts, even threads, talking about how the OW should dump the MM in their lives because they were worth more than a part time lover, that any OW, just like any woman, deserved a healthy relationship where both parties were true to each other and themselves. The posts would say how damaging an affair was to them, the OW. In summary, the posts were supportive. Not condoning the OW actions, but not condemning them either.

 

Nowadays there seems to be more and more posts whose tone deride the OW, indicate that she has no morals, that she should consider the wife, that she's not worth anything... etc. etc. Condemnation, condemnation, condemnation.

 

I can understand the hurt felt by BS as I was one of them. I dearly would have loved the opportunity to scream my pain at every OW in the world. But given a little space and time, and some excellent advice by Lindya, LadyJane (where is LJ, btw?) and others, I see things a little differently now. I now feel that battering an OW will do nothing to change her mind, could well undermine her self-esteem and could further entrench her position. Infact, the complete reverse of what the condemning post is apparently setting out to do.

 

Ok, there seem to be a couple of OW who appear to have no moral code and still others who appear to be so bitter, that there is nothing that someone on the other side of a computer screen can do to make them see any other course of action than the one they are currently on.

 

However, I feel that there are many women out there who find themselves in a situation that they know, deep down is bad for them, but can't find the strength to change it, surely its for those women that LS is here for? Surely barraging them with disparagement will do nothing to help them remove themselves from a course of self-destruction? And surely we, as adults, know that encouragement is a far more effective tool than an axe?

 

Just a thought

 

 

Very well written.

[torranceshipman]

Very well said - I completely agree. LS - and some very good people on here - extracated me from being the OW, and basically seeing the lies - very quickly. Without their advice I probably would have stayed in the situation a lot longer, and believed all the lies the MM was telling me - and the damaged self esteem would have gone along with it - and I am so, so happy I found this place, and realised what was going on, and how I had to leave the situation asap.

 

Harsh reality and tough love is a great thing, but downright moralistic bashing helps no-one at all, and - I agree - makes the situation worse and more destructive for everyone.

[Touche]

I would just like to say thank-you Ripples, I have always found you and several other BS's on here very thoughtful and careful in your replies. I maintain its not what you say, its the way that you say it.[/QUOTE]

 

Great post, Ripples.

 

And to address the bolded part...normally, in real life, that would be true. But on an internet forum such as LS, it IS what you say (or type) that is important since we can't hear someone's tone.

[NoIDidn't]

Hi Ripples!!! Nice to *see* you.

 

I certainly agree with a lot of what you have said, but......

 

No one wakes up one day and finds that they are the OP. I honestly think its a choice, not a "find themselves in an affair" kind of thing. That notwithstanding, I don't see any point of coming on "their board" and insulting them. I may not offer much in the realm of support (for continuing in the affair), but I see no point in helping to further entrench a person into the wrong line of thinking.

[Herzen]

Great post, Ripples. Well written, and it certainly needed to be said. I posted something very similar back in January 2004, as bark. My post reads like an overwrought manifesto, but I was a very intense lad back in those dark days.

 

In this time of "tough love" when attack posts label the OW as sociopathic or worse, it's good to remember that firm but gentle suasion is a better tool for behavioral change than character assassination. But some posters could care less about changing behavior because they'd rather play "more moral than thou."

 

As long as betrayed spouses and affair paramours inhabit the same public message board there will always be some bloodletting. Nevertheless, your cautionary post is a needed message to the Scarlet Letter Mob to lighten up and put down their pitchforks and torches.

[Je Ne Regrette Rien]

Hi Ripples!!! Nice to *see* you.

 

I certainly agree with a lot of what you have said, but......

 

No one wakes up one day and finds that they are the OP. I honestly think its a choice, not a "find themselves in an affair" kind of thing. That notwithstanding, I don't see any point of coming on "their board" and insulting them. I may not offer much in the realm of support (for continuing in the affair), but I see no point in helping to further entrench a person into the wrong line of thinking.

 

NID, valid point. However, the "wrong line of thinking" is personal to you. That's what you believe is the wrong line of thinking. LS has helped me see how painful it is to be a BW. But on here, the lineof thinking seems so black and white. I.E>

 

BW= pained woman who has only put 100% in her M and has been repaid with an A

 

OW = bad immoral person who treads over M with a disregard for W's (and kids) feelings

 

I see it differently. My MM married very early, "did the right thing" by his pregnant gf at the time and then tried to make the M work. You're right. It IS a choice of both the OW and the MM. But what is it a choice of? Too many times posters on here believe its a choice between "Shall I have some fun with a MM or not?". But in my case and certainly some other OW cases its not. Its more of a case of "I've met the person I have been waiting for. He's M but he's going to make a change in his life so we can be together. Shall I wait for him, trust his words and believe in our love? Or shall I give up the chance of what could be in this minute of time what I define as my happiness and try and find that elsewhere?"

 

W as wronged person who has lived a life trusting MM, bringing up children and believing that they will be together forever? Wrong again. They BOTH took each other for granted, did not see how important communication could be. There was a big crack in the M before I entered the scene. But W fails to see this.

 

I'm not saying this about all BW/OW/MM obviously. just from my personal experience. But isn't that what LS is about? Sharing your experience and gaining from others? Taking the advice that hits home? Not about someone telling OW "This is the way of life you SHOUlD be living and I shall tell you where you are going wrong" ?

[NoIDidn't]

So what are you saying? You think having an affair is the *right* thing to do?

 

People do sometimes get married for all the wrong reasons, but none of them are a reason to cheat. Maybe a reason to divorce, but NEVER to cheat.

 

I simply fail to see how cheating can ever be seen as the right thing to do. Your justifications and rationalizations are just that.

 

My "wrong line of thinking" isn't just personal. Even most cheaters think that cheating is wrong and the thinking that gets one into an affair is just as wrong.

 

Sorry, Je Ne, but you have only offered excuses that aid you in staying in the affair. Nothing can ever be offered as a bonafide reason to have one.

[Trialbyfire]

So what are you saying? You think having an affair is the *right* thing to do?

 

People do sometimes get married for all the wrong reasons, but none of them are a reason to cheat. Maybe a reason to divorce, but NEVER to cheat.

 

I simply fail to see how cheating can ever be seen as the right thing to do. Your justifications and rationalizations are just that.

 

My "wrong line of thinking" isn't just personal. Even most cheaters think that cheating is wrong and the thinking that gets one into an affair is just as wrong.

 

Sorry, Je Ne, but you have only offered excuses that aid you in staying in the affair. Nothing can ever be offered as a bonafide reason to have one.

Both of these comments are so spot on.

 

OW remain in affairs by personal choice. Many even choose to begin affairs, where they have allowed the MM to seduce them or have chosen to seduce the MM.

[Ruby Tuesday]

Sometimes all it takes are a few choice trigger words. Such things as: Doing it for the kids, married too young, trapped him with kids, etc and so on.

 

Ignorance is bliss.

 

The only time I ever got upset was in AP's thread about telling the BW (which thankfully has been resolved not to) however, I still have a huge problem with people taking it out on the BW for their payback when they made their OWN choice to have an affair. They seemed to have had a grand time knowing things the BW didn'tknow.... and now they want her to know?

[Tomcat33]

Ripples, thank you for a very much needed post and it means that much more coming from a well respected member of LS. For the lenght of time I have been on here I can honestly say you have a way of really getting your point across in a way that is inviting rather than repelling, like other styles I see on here.

 

Having said that, I would also like to add that in the short while I have been on here I too have seen a real deterioration in the way the threads just seem to descend into the same old hatred battles, and I can only imagine how offputting that must be for newcommers who are truly in distress and here for much needed support.

 

I wish people could see that the hate sometimes is so utterly misdirected.For once I would like to see a cheater come on here and face up to the reactions of BS and OW/OM, but sadly what I have seen instead is the far and few cheaters that do post on here don't get nearly as bad a treatment as the OW/OM do. Why?

[Tomcat33]

Sometimes all it takes are a few choice trigger words. Such things as: Doing it for the kids, married too young, trapped him with kids, etc and so on.

 

Ignorance is bliss.

 

The only time I ever got upset was in AP's thread about telling the BW (which thankfully has been resolved not to) however, I still have a huge problem with people taking it out on the BW for their payback when they made their OWN choice to have an affair. They seemed to have had a grand time knowing things the BW didn'tknow.... and now they want her to know?

 

Speaking of ingnorance being bliss, unfortunately there are those BS who don't want to know abou the A even while it's going on. They feel it they sense it but would rather pretend the big white elephant in the room is not there. Just as you are of the opinion that it's best to know after the fact there are plenty of BS who would rather know, no matter what the motive might be on OW's half because at the end of the day what the OW wants out of it is irrelevant if she is willing to blow his cover when it could go 50/50 for her. Some OP just feel that when they have seen the light they want to put a complete stop to the insanity even if means reaching out to the BS when all the damage has been done.

 

If you were trying to work things out with your H after he decided to focus on the marriage wouldn't you want to know he has broken his promise to you yet another time? Sorry but me being in the BS shoes no matter what the OP's motive I think I would want to absolutely know exactly who I am dealing with and I think it also shows the OP really has no further interest in the cheating spouse because we all know all the revealing of truth to the BS does is alienate the cheater from the OP even more.

 

It really all does boil down to how you look at it.

[Ruby Tuesday]

Really TC? Because whenever I asked him about it (and beleived me I asked repeatedly) I was dismissed as being "crazy" and "she is just a friend."

 

He would also follow me about the house to mock, badger and fight with me until I told him to F.O. (finger) which was also an excuse to disappear for hours without any question.

 

He had every chance to vocalize his needs and shout it out loud he was in love with the OW, but he chose to keep it a secret for a year before I could finally proove it was going on. They don't confess.

 

Thats not a white elephant, thats a stampede of bull lol!!!

 

I used to tell him, MM dont hang out with divorced women in their kitchen all the time and friends don't try to get involved with other peoples lives.

 

Oh I brought the kids over to play with her kids.

 

We were just talking.

 

Then the amount of bull increased the more I asked. It's called gaslighting. A key factor in all affairs, bar none.

[Tomcat33]

Really TC? Because whenever I asked him about it (and beleived me I asked repeatedly) I was dismissed as being "crazy" and "she is just a friend."

 

He would also follow me about the house to mock, badger and fight with me until I told him to F.O. (finger) which was also an excuse to disappear for hours without any question.

 

He had every chance to vocalize his needs and shout it out loud he was in love with the OW, but he chose to keep it a secret for a year before I could finally proove it was going on. They don't confess.

 

Thats not a white elephant, thats a stampede of bull lol!!!

 

I used to tell him, MM dont hang out with divorced women in their kitchen all the time and friends don't try to get involved with other peoples lives.

 

Oh I brought the kids over to play with her kids.

 

We were just talking.

 

Then the amount of bull increased the more I asked. It's called gaslighting. A key factor in all affairs, bar none.

 

I don't doubt what you said for a second. Especially after reading what you just wrote the question begs to be asked, why are you misdirecting all you anger that should be towards the actions of the person who you trusted that inflicted pain upon you, towards the OW who was dealing with her share of lies on her end? I really dont see how she's the issue. I hate to say it but the white elephant is still in your home.

[Ruby Tuesday]

Im tired of this. Im not arguing with you TC. I say black, you say white. Youre ten times as hostile as I am and you'll pick apart everything I say without having considered a word of it. Goodnight madam.

[april sunshine]

I am new to this site, and I would like to say that the people who have responded to my thread have largely been sensitive and thoughtful in their comments. I was prepared to recieve both negative and positive feedback. I intend to consider all points of view, and am finding the opportunity to tell my story and to read others opinions of my story to be helpful.

[Ripples]

URGH!!!!!!! I should've known better....

 

Look, no one, but no one can justify an affair. It's immoral, end of story. But one needs to recognise that there are those OW who, now embroiled in one, recognise that it's wrong and need support to get out.

 

On the other hand there are BS who are here to further their own agenda, attention seek, justify their embittered stance, but there are also those BS that are in genuine pain.

 

Pick your battles.

[Herzen]

URGH!!!!!!! I should've known better....

 

Look, no one, but no one can justify an affair. It's immoral, end of story. But one needs to recognise that there are those OW who, now embroiled in one, recognise that it's wrong and need support to get out.

 

On the other hand there are BS who are here to further their own agenda, attention seek, justify their embittered stance, but there are also those BS that are in genuine pain.

 

Pick your battles.

 

The irony would be delicious if this Thread of Peace becomes a battleground between the OW and BS.

 

As folks point out ad nauseum, the number one culprit, the MM, often doesn't come here especially when actively boinking his OW.It's only much later, once the affair cools, his marriage is on the rocks or his wife discovers the cheating does he make a brief appearance--at least until the next OW.

 

By necessity, then, the OW is "whipping girl" for not only her MM, but for all MM's.She must answer for her wrongs, and his. Such is life.

[lindya]

However, I feel that there are many women out there who find themselves in a situation that they know, deep down is bad for them, but can't find the strength to change it, surely its for those women that LS is here for? Surely barraging them with disparagement will do nothing to help them remove themselves from a course of self-destruction? And surely we, as adults, know that encouragement is a far more effective tool than an axe?

 

As adults we know it, but we don't always operate as adults. Going further, some people seem to view this board as nothing more than an opportunity to let out the destructive "critical parent" or "rebellious child" in themselves. Both are extensions of being a victim - which essentially involves refusing to take any responsibility for what they do/say while simultaneously demanding that everyone else accepts the blame and criticism they want to dish out.

 

I think we all have the potential to behave like that, but in recognition of it being destructive - both to ourselves and to other people - most of us challenge ourselves into a healthier and more adult stance. LS can be a very good place to do that...but occasionally you'll get a poster who resists all efforts by others to encourage them into that position. Who is so trapped in their own unhealthy drama triangle that they have no modus operandi beyond picking and fuelling battles with anyone who seems like they might be a willing foe.

 

Even for mature, intelligent individuals it can be difficult to resist the lure of these dramas. Yet in real life, it tends to be very easy. Perhaps that's because the people who come online purely to berate and argue with others often feel disempowered to an extent that's probably far easier for to recognise in real life. You're more likely to feel some degree of empathy and pity for them, and that tends to negate the destructive impact they hope to have on others.

 

I won't mention the poster's name, but - a bit of a departure from the OW/BS issue here - there's one guy on here who has often made very derogatory comments about women. Everything from our ability to demonstrate humour to what he perceives as our ugly genitalia has been criticised. Then this same poster wonders why his sexual experiences with women have been so unsatisfying. Why they just seem to lie there - unrelaxed, unhappy, passionless etc.

 

This relates specifically to your point about berating people in an effort to get the best out of them. It just doesn't work. If you drain a person's confidence and happiness away, you only get the very worst out of them. Surely this is something we've all witnessed/been taught time and time again - yet still people do it.

 

I guess if you're constantly surrounded by others who consciously refuse to behave like adults any of the time, it starts to rub off. So if you've got an OW or a BS who's trying to be reasonable - but who's spending a lot of time reading thoroughly unreasonable messages from people who are solely bent on criticising, wounding and generally causing trouble, then it's only a matter of time (I think) before something gives and the reasonable person starts to dish out a bit of critical/rebellious behaviour herself.

[Herzen]

As adults we know it, but we don't always operate as adults. Going further, some people seem to view this board as nothing more than an opportunity to let out the destructive "critical parent" or "rebellious child" in themselves. Both are extensions of being a victim - which essentially involves refusing to take any responsibility for what they do/say while simultaneously demanding that everyone else accepts the blame and criticism they want to dish out.

 

I think we all have the potential to behave like that, but in recognition of it being destructive - both to ourselves and to other people - most of us challenge ourselves into a healthier and more adult stance. LS can be a very good place to do that...but occasionally you'll get a poster who resists all efforts by others to encourage them into that position. Who is so trapped in their own unhealthy drama triangle that they have no modus operandi beyond picking and fuelling battles with anyone who seems like they might be a willing foe.

 

Even for mature, intelligent individuals it can be difficult to resist the lure of these dramas. Yet in real life, it tends to be very easy. Perhaps that's because the people who come online purely to berate and argue with others often feel disempowered to an extent that's probably far easier for to recognise in real life. You're more likely to feel some degree of empathy and pity for them, and that tends to negate the destructive impact they hope to have on others.

 

I won't mention the poster's name, but - a bit of a departure from the OW/BS issue here - there's one guy on here who has often made very derogatory comments about women. Everything from our ability to demonstrate humour to what he perceives as our ugly genitalia has been criticised. Then this same poster wonders why his sexual experiences with women have been so unsatisfying. Why they just seem to lie there - unrelaxed, unhappy, passionless etc.

 

This relates specifically to your point about berating people in an effort to get the best out of them. It just doesn't work. If you drain a person's confidence and happiness away, you only get the very worst out of them. Surely this is something we've all witnessed/been taught time and time again - yet still people do it.

 

I guess if you're constantly surrounded by others who consciously refuse to behave like adults any of the time, it starts to rub off. So if you've got an OW or a BS who's trying to be reasonable - but who's spending a lot of time reading thoroughly unreasonable messages from people who are solely bent on criticising, wounding and generally causing trouble, then it's only a matter of time (I think) before something gives and the reasonable person starts to dish out a bit of critical/rebellious behaviour herself.

 

So LS might even be harmful for some given the negative synergies you describe. Perhaps with a critical mass of "critical parent" posts a tipping point is reached and the assaulted OW either shuts down entirely or becomes the "rebellious child". The "bad girl" behavior doesn't change and, in fact, is perversely reinforced.

 

LS is no place for those vulnerables who need structured therapeutic treatment. It's fine for us healthy neurotics though.

[lindya]

So LS might even be harmful for some given the negative synergies you describe. Perhaps with a critical mass of "critical parent" posts a tipping point is reached and the assaulted OW either shuts down entirely or becomes the "rebellious child". The "bad girl" behavior doesn't change and, in fact, is perversely reinforced.

 

I think so. Unless you give people a positive version of themselves to work towards being, what is there to motivate them? I suppose the thing is that a lot of threads really aren't about people trying to provide support...they're more of a place to act out "I'm fine, you're not" scenarios. I think until a person is aware of the roles they personally tend to adopt in such scenarios, their efforts to help others will often leave them feeling frustrated, angry and misunderstood.

 

LS is no place for those vulnerables who need structured therapeutic treatment. It's fine for us healthy neurotics though.

 

I'm not neurotic, am I?????

[Herzen]

I think so. Unless you give people a positive version of themselves to work towards being, what is there to motivate them? I suppose the thing is that a lot of threads really aren't about people trying to provide support...they're more of a place to act out "I'm fine, you're not" scenarios. I think until a person is aware of the roles they personally tend to adopt in such scenarios, their efforts to help others will often leave them feeling frustrated, angry and misunderstood.

 

 

 

I'm not neurotic, am I?????

 

 

You!?

 

Of course not!

 

Well, perhaps a little...

[LucreziaBorgia]

cheaters that do post on here don't get nearly as bad a treatment as the OW/OM do. Why?

 

Because people prefer to see cheating as human error, while an OW/OM going after someone they know is married as a malicious deliberate act of marital sabotage. It is easier to forgive a 'mistake' than it is a deliberate act.