Diamonds&Rust Posted May 28, 2007 Posted May 28, 2007 Do women really think like this?! Women: is the diamond that important to you? A man who had ethical and financial reservations about a diamond is less attractive as a husband? Wow, that's disgusting.
polywog Posted May 28, 2007 Posted May 28, 2007 Do women really think like this?! Women: is the diamond that important to you? A man who had ethical and financial reservations about a diamond is less attractive as a husband? Wow, that's disgusting. I'm a woman and I totally agree with you. It creeps me out to think that some women want the "proof" of an expensive ring that they're "worth it". Don't get it, never have.
LucreziaBorgia Posted May 28, 2007 Posted May 28, 2007 Important to me? Nah. I think about what it would have been like to have been proposed to on bended knee with a Tiffany diamond on a moonlit night at the beach and all that good stuff, but I think about that the same way I think about winning the lottery, or getting a novel published, etc. I don't see it as something that is practical, just nice to think about. I think its important to a good deal of women just like being a size zero is important, or having a huge wedding is important, or having the dream home with the nice SUV, yard and fence and the two point five kids is important. Its important to them, because they are socialized to see it that way. Either through upbringing or the media, take your pick. Some people are more susceptible to the influence than others, I guess.
K-os Posted May 28, 2007 Posted May 28, 2007 Seeing as I'm the one with ethical and financial reservations, I have to say that I agree with you 100%. Her comment really gave me exactly the same feeling of disgust when she said it. Right after that she says "Gimme a break." No, give me a break. It's fine for some people to drop a crapload of money on a ring, but why should everyone be required to? And it's not like I would never and have never considered paying a lot, but I would never ever get to the point where I was going into debt. Not even just a *little*. My budget would actually be a little higher if I knew she really wanted an overplayed, overpriced diamond. It's just pretty reasonable to find the kind of ring I'm looking for in a slightly lower price range. Besides, I doubt she'll be going into debt over a ring for me. I would expect her to be reasonable in her price range and search long and hard for something that fits us perfectly. If girls go crazy for big engagement rings, shoud I expect her to take a big loan out on something that men go crazy for? Maybe I should demand a classic, rebuilt Mustang as "proof" of her love. There are a lot of really expensive things that people go crazy for. That should never mean for a second that a significant other is required to buy that item for any reason. Not even an engagement.
Chamari Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 wait, what!? "isn't she worth going into a *little* debt for?" Do women really think like this?! Women: is the diamond that important to you? A man who had ethical and financial reservations about a diamond is less attractive as a husband? Wow, that's disgusting. I'd have to say that for me (and a number of my female friends) it's more what the guy's attitude about the whole thing. It's a way for him to show how much he values his girl. I don't think that that should be dependent on how much the guy spends, but more on how much effort he puts in trying to get her a ring that fits her personality and taste. Personally, I don't want an expensive ring. I know that I have a tendency to lose rings--my fingers shrink when I'm cold and I'm cold a lot of the time which makes it really hard to keep a ring on--and I'm pretty clumsy so I want something simple that won't get caught on everything I come into contact too. (As note however, while I don't want my guy to spend a fortune on a ring for me, I do want him to be willing to if that was what I wanted, if that makes sense. Think that's what most girls want really is just to know that their guy would do anything he could to make them happy. Some of them just require it to be shown in more material ways.) Now, on the other hand, the kind of rings that I tend to like don't look much like engagement rings so when the time comes I might want to pick up a more traditional looking ring--maybe a CZ or something--to use when I want it to be clear that I'm engaged and not just wearing a pretty ring on the wrong finger.
norajane Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 I believe it was Stargazer who pointed out that the purchase isn't solely him buying it. If you consider that a couple pools their financial resources after marriage, any payments on that ring will come out of their joint finances. Even if he purchased the ring outright with no payments prior to their marriage, that means he's bringing less money into their joint finances, while she brings all of her money. So, it's really them financing the purchase, one way or another. This is what I never understand about presents couples give each other for birthdays and whatnot after they're married. They're both paying for the gift out of their joint finances, so how do they consider it as - oh, he bought me diamond earrings and I bought him a boat - when it's their money anyway? I bring this up because I earn and have plenty of money and I can buy my own dream diamond ring...so, if he would buy me something far less than what I would choose for myself if I were buying it, I would certainly question why. In the end, it's our money, give or take. Ethical reservations are a different matter. If he really had ethical issues with diamonds, that's something I can resepct. But if he's using that as an excuse because he's cheap and it makes him sound less cheap to say he has ethical issues...no, sorry, he's just cheap.
Author Diamonds&Rust Posted May 29, 2007 Author Posted May 29, 2007 If he really had ethical issues with diamonds, that's something I can resepct. But if he's using that as an excuse because he's cheap and it makes him sound less cheap to say he has ethical issues...no, sorry, he's just cheap. I don't think the ethics have much to do with his feelings on it. Diamonds are unethical because of the pan-national child slavery and murder involved. Even if you shell out the extra cash for a cruelty-free diamond, you're still contributing to the demand and social programming involved in keeping this institution in place. Also, if you're honestly considering going into debt for a pretty ring, I would question whether marriage is something you're ready for. It requires a little bit more common sense and foresight than that.
norajane Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 I don't think the ethics have much to do with his feelings on it. Diamonds are unethical because of the pan-national child slavery and murder involved. Even if you shell out the extra cash for a cruelty-free diamond, you're still contributing to the demand and social programming involved in keeping this institution in place. And if he can articulate that and make me believe he cares, I'll respect it. But if he's just mouthing the words and doesn't really care, he's just cheap. YOu may ask, how can one know that child slavery and murder are involved and still buy into the insitutation? It's easy. We all know that our Made in China and Made in Mexico and Made in [not Europe or North America] goods are manufactured in slavery conditions, often by children. Doesn't stop us from buying those sneakers and t-shirts and jeans.
norajane Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 Also, if you're honestly considering going into debt for a pretty ring, I would question whether marriage is something you're ready for. It requires a little bit more common sense and foresight than that. Debt...yes. If you have to go into debt to buy a ring, then you're not likely to be able to afford a marriage, either. The only thing I have or would ever go into debt for is an education and a house.
Author Diamonds&Rust Posted May 29, 2007 Author Posted May 29, 2007 YOu may ask, how can one know that child slavery and murder are involved and still buy into the insitutation? It's easy. Easy, of course; but ethical, no. I think regardless of his sincerity, the ethical reasons are huge.
green-eyed beauty Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 If a guy can't pay $3000 for a ring, he isn't marriageable anyway. A guy who has his life together wouldn't think twice. I would want a guy to be responsible with money that I would HOPE he would already have $3000 in his savings account, but if not, he has a decent enough job to pay off a $3000 ring in a few months. People, if you're responsible with money, you should have a generous nest egg in the bank, at least enough to cover you in case you lose your job, etc. etc. etc. financial emergencies. Watch Suze Orman! If he can't do that, he's not my type anyway, because I don't want some slacker guy or one who is irresponsible with money. As far as the ethical thing goes...I see the point if he disagrees with it. There are alternatives, such as moissonite. So...I would definitely go with his ethical values on that one because I'd want him to enjoy looking at it on my finger. A guy, well MAN, who buys a woman a real engagement ring is in it for real. He's made a commitment of an investment, he's really going make more of an investment in the marriage, alsol
quankanne Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 This is what I never understand about presents couples give each other for birthdays and whatnot after they're married. They're both paying for the gift out of their joint finances, so how do they consider it as - oh, he bought me diamond earrings and I bought him a boat - when it's their money anyway? it's about taking those joint finances and spending them on something you know the other person really, really wants when you've got other things that the money could go for. I know people with kids often put their kids' needs first, forgoing stuff they want so that their kids can have braces or driving lessons or new sports gear so they can be on the team, etc. we don't have kids, so our "big" gifts tend to be practical stuff: the pets "bought" me a dual use vacuum cleaner that works on bare floors for Mother's Day this year. Christmas gifts are often a joint birthday-Christmas-birthday gift that's needed around the house – last year it was a deep freeze. So you tend to look at your desires based on true need, not simply desire alone, though there are times you splurge and get that piece of James Avery she really, really wants or agree to buy a motorcycle because his heart is set on it. but all those things are married gifts – demanding pricey jewelry just because you're engaged is just tacky, IMO ...
Author Diamonds&Rust Posted May 29, 2007 Author Posted May 29, 2007 I would want a guy to be responsible with money that I would HOPE he would already have $3000 Being responsible with money and having money are two different things. A guy, well MAN, who buys a woman a real engagement ring is in it for real. He's made a commitment of an investment A fiancee is not a good investment. It will be very unlikely, even if you mature, that he'll be able to sell you for more than $3,000--especially adjusting for inflation.
green-eyed beauty Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 This is what I never understand about presents couples give each other for birthdays and whatnot after they're married. They're both paying for the gift out of their joint finances, so how do they consider it as - oh, he bought me diamond earrings and I bought him a boat - when it's their money anyway? it's about taking those joint finances and spending them on something you know the other person really, really wants when you've got other things that the money could go for. I know people with kids often put their kids' needs first, forgoing stuff they want so that their kids can have braces or driving lessons or new sports gear so they can be on the team, etc. we don't have kids, so our "big" gifts tend to be practical stuff: the pets "bought" me a dual use vacuum cleaner that works on bare floors for Mother's Day this year. Christmas gifts are often a joint birthday-Christmas-birthday gift that's needed around the house – last year it was a deep freeze. So you tend to look at your desires based on true need, not simply desire alone, though there are times you splurge and get that piece of James Avery she really, really wants or agree to buy a motorcycle because his heart is set on it. but all those things are married gifts – demanding pricey jewelry just because you're engaged is just tacky, IMO ... Who said anything about demanding it? I would never demand it. I would only be in love with a guy who would love me enough and want to really commit to get me a decent ring, so it wouldn't be an issue.
Sheba Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 First of all, I will say again that CANADIAN diamonds can be purchased with a clear conscience. No cartels. No slavery. No child labour. Secondly, I think that many men measure their OWN worth by the size of the diamond they put on their beloved's finger. My husband seems to think I should have a full carat. Since he can't afford one at the moment, I have none. I don't care particularly. I am happy enough without a diamond. If I get one, I will be happy with that too. In any case, it is flawlessy clear that the size matters more to him than to me. As an aside, am I the only one who has wondered why everyone on this thread and the related thread has ignored the opportunity to make a "size matters" joke?
Woggle Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 This is how a man can tell if a woman is a keeper or not.
Trimmer Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 This is how a man can tell if a woman is a keeper or not. What, whether or not she makes "size matters" jokes? You've finally discovered the missing piece, Woggle!
quankanne Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 Who said anything about demanding it? oh, you'd be amazed at how quickly a sense of entitlement comes when a woman agrees to a marriage proposal. And then there are the women who base men's worth solely on the jewelry he can provide her. Frankly, it's sickening to watch.
K-os Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 Being responsible with money and having money are two different things. Indeed. And one could argue that part of being responsible with money could include not running out to the store to spend all of that $3000 just because everyone's doing it, or people say you're "supposed to". $3k can go a long way for something much more responsible in a marriage, like a house or a car. Isn't a "nest egg" usually there for practical/security reasons? That's what being responsible is all about. And what if she doesn't even want a $3k ring in the first place?! Why pour out the savings account for something she would find to be an irresponsible and unwarrented use of money? Especially something she has no desire for...
Woggle Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 What, whether or not she makes "size matters" jokes? You've finally discovered the missing piece, Woggle! It is about whether or not she bases his worth on how much he spends.
green-eyed beauty Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 It depends on how you look at it. Compared to how much a car is, it's not. Compared to how much you make in your entire lifetime....it's not. Compared to how much a house costs....it's not. Compared to a flat-screen plasma TV and how much some guys spend on games.....it's not.
Woggle Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 I would rather buy a woman a big screen tv than a diamond. A big sceen tv actually does something and has a use while a diamond is a useless object that just sits there. It is a status symbol.
green-eyed beauty Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 I don't really view it like that. It's a symbol of your commitment. But anyway...as far as spending, it's all in your perspective. A 22-year old college student starting out...OK, he's not going to be able to afford as much as a 30-year old, succesful and established in his career. If I were in a relationship, he would have a similar background, meaning established and successful....so it's a different perspective. He's going to think differently about buying an engagement ring than the starving college student. Which is OK. But....I don't have any expectations, I'm not going to say "I expect you to spend X amound on a diamond, and it should be this carat weight, etc. etc." I don't even want to know what he spent, it is something I'd never ask.
Trialbyfire Posted May 29, 2007 Posted May 29, 2007 Well, y'all know what I think as referenced in K-os thread. For me, an engagement ring is a necessity, based on the sentiment behind it. It's up to the guy what he wants to spend. I also feel that women should reciprocate but not from a dollar for dollar perspective, but from wanting to gift your loved one with something as a symbol of your love. When my ex proposed on bended knee, ring in hand, I cried. It meant a lot to me. The next day, I convinced him that he deserved something in return because I wanted to reciprocate so we went out and I bought him the motorcyle he'd been drooling over. These two items symbolized what I felt was our commitment to each other.
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