Happy OW with no particular question..?

[lonelybird]

ok, you are really confusing me now. i am not speaking of any particular man. i do not feel that i am "using" anyone. i love MM very much, and he says that he loves me. i do not think that he closes his eyes while making love to his W. so i guess that would make him not selfish? i really dont get your line of thinking here.

okay, sorry I didn't put this more clear. I mean he married his wife, why? he loved her. then when the chemical high pass, he lose the feeling and RESPECT for his wife, he is totally controlled by his sex organ, and didn't develop his spiritual side.

 

we all know that chemical last few years, but past that sex chemical period, shouldn't we develop some other spiritual feeling, true love for SO?

 

What is a man worth for falling in love with, when he only think for himself and his sex organ? his wife is at home to take care of family and kids, he don't even care about hurting someone made so much effort for him, do you think he genuinly care about you?

[sadbuttrue]

i really dont think you can make these generalizations about all MM who have affairs.

 

people do fall out of love, and YES they should divorce if they are not happy, but that doesnt always happen. affairs happen. sometimes the man still loves the W and makes a mistake.

 

my MM does not want to hurt his family. he thinks by staying with her then he is not hurting her. i do believe that he cares about me. and i know that he still cares about her.

[lonelybird]

i really dont think you can make these generalizations about all MM who have affairs.

 

people do fall out of love, and YES they should divorce if they are not happy, but that doesnt always happen. affairs happen. sometimes the man still loves the W and makes a mistake.

 

my MM does not want to hurt his family. he thinks by staying with her then he is not hurting her. i do believe that he cares about me. and i know that he still cares about her.

I am sure he cares about you, but not enough. Cheating will bring guilty into both of your hearts. It will not be a happy end.

[sadbuttrue]

yeah, we are both guilty, and i have always known it would be an unhappy ending for me.

 

i think we have jacked this thread long enough

[frannie]

So are you actually glad when he leaves your house and goes home at the weekend?

 

And you would like me to possibly believe that you and him don't have sex. Please, let's deal with reality. I never suggested he was with you just for the sex, but I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't an important part of your relationship.

 

As you say, you gave him every opportunity to leave for you and he didn't.

If you just think about it for a moment, what is that saying?

 

Yes, we both know men with young children who leave home and those are the men that are truly in love with their OW. They are not cake eaters. I just wish you would admit that.

 

You have to be happy with your affair, because that is all he is offering you.

If you can be happy sharing him, then good for you.

No more hoping that he will leave home, no more of those discussions about where the relationship is going, because it isn't going anywhere and there is no future in it.

I actually thought you were in your thirties (just my impression) but to be someone's side dish is very, very sad for you.

 

At the end of the day, he sounds just like every other bloke who isn't going to leave home. He will continue the affair if he can get away with it, which clearly he can. He doesn't want his wife finding out, and he is willing to introduce you to relatives as long as you and him lie about who you really are. Not a pretty scenario is it.

 

He was fine with you ending it if it was hurting you, so he could have walked away and never seen you again. Yeah, sounds like true love to me!

You clearly are desperately in love with him, but IMO, his actions show that this is not reciprocated.

 

GEL, I do not think that most affairs comprise of a quickie in the back of the car and so I don't know what you mean by saying it.

 

Why would I be glad when he leaves..?

 

I didn't say we didn't have sex. I merely pointed out that many assumptions can be made, but unless you know the details you're shooting in the dark about sexual relations. And you clearly are.

 

Yes, I took things to the limit in needing to know whether he would or wouldn't leave. Because I needed to know. And when he said he couldn't, knowing it would mean never seeing me again, what it meant to me was, that it mattered a hell of a lot for him to be there.

 

Men with young children who leave home are the men with young children who feel they can leave home. I don't think that has anything to do with who they love, what they want, or what they think about love or child development. It's a choice the first part of which has nothing to do with the second. Nothing could be further from a logical argument than the one you gave here.

 

I don't have to be happy with my affair. I could be very UNhappy with it, or I could end it. The choices are mine. Get that?

 

And yes, I can be happy sharing him with his obligations. Even if one of those is a wife he doesn't love. Not that I think that's a great way to live his life, but it's down to him. Essentially I view it as I would if he were divorced: it would never have been plain-sailing then either... there was always going to be an ex-wife and children to spend time with...

 

And you're right that there are no more dull and anxious conversations about whether he's going to leave. It is clear that that is not going to happen in the near future, if ever... and as I said elsewhere, that's a positive. No more doubt, no more waiting. My decision to be with him now rested solely on whether or not I was getting anything out of this NOW. And I am.

 

What is a 'side dish' again is a matter of perspective. It's a cute little comparison trotted out regularly on here. Of course the marital partner is always the 'main dish' and the floosie on the side is some kind of fast food or indigestible dessert. So much for reality!

 

But to be honest, I don't compare myself to FOOD of any type. I'm the person he talks to when he wants to talk about his work or his thoughts, the one he spends his happiest times with, the one he shares his ideas and plans with. I'm the one he snuggles down with at night, the one he dreams of, and the one he wakes up to after his dreams... I've been sleeping with him for long enough to have noticed the changes in him when he's with me... from a tight, reserved kind of person to one happy to share his thoughts, dreams, and everything that matters... Nothing whatever written here can possibly override the knowledge I have of how he's changed in those years. And all cliches about hamburgers just make me roll my eyes wondering if ANY of those writing them have a clue what being in a relationship (rather than being hitched to someone you barely knew when you were 20) really means.

 

Yes, he would have walked away from it all if it meant I was happy with that. To me that speaks of real love, not 'desperation'. I've heard enough of MM who don't leave their OW alone even after repeated pleas... and then you say you think I'm 'desperately' in love with him. No, by the same measure I'm not. I love him and we are good together, but there's nothing 'desperate' about it, from either side.

 

We are happy, we're in love, and it's going to continue. And nothing you've written here is anything more than the sad generalisations I've read over and over on this site since I first came here.

[frannie]

You say that you are truly happy, as is everyone involved...I wouldn't bet on that...A's always tear families apart...

 

Well actually I said 'no one is suffering' and I mean that in the most general sense of the suffering that would result from a divorce, and everything else.

 

As I said, there is no way there would be a good outcome for all concerned now, in this situation. And what decided me to continue this more than anything was the fact of my own personal loss, which I cannot measure against the misery of his wife possibly finding out about this or possibly feeling a reduced sense of happiness in her own marriage. Those are problems she has to deal with herself.

 

And I have fully considered those, given your own posts here OOD. Believe me I have. But I can't know what she feels or what she wants, and I refuse to put presumptions of what might be best for her ahead of what I need and want in my own life.

 

Yes, that is selfish, I'm quite prepared to admit. But then I could lose out at any moment, and so ... I'm just going ahead with doing what is best for me, since I don't know whether she cares a jot for him or not.

[frannie]

Frannie

 

I wanted to stay away from this thread, but it has been bothering me since I first read it and many of your latest posts. I am not writing this for any kind of debate from you or anyone else on this forum.

 

A few months ago you were determined to find out where you stood regarding him leaving his W. You even threatened to end it if he couldn't come to a decision. Then he gave you a really pathetic attempt at convincing you of how conflicted he was: he posted at LS in the divorcing section. He probably even tells you not to listen to those "bitter" wives who's husbands probably wanted to leave them too. He has you exactly where he wants you.

 

What's really disgusting about him is that he is probably cheating his company out of money while he stays with you. They are probably giving him an expense account for meals and a hotel that he doesn't use. I know that I am assuming alot, so I don't need anyone telling me that. But I have worked as a consultant for many years. I know how this type operates.

 

I really like you Frannie, so this is far from a dig. If you were a real life friend of mine, I would say the same thing to your face - at the risk of you never wanting to speak me again. And for all that follows, forget that I am speaking to one in an A. I wouldn't allow a friend in a R with a SG to go through this. SG do this too.

 

You have decided that you don't deserve more from a man and you are so in love with this one that you are letting him get away with MURDER. Gone is the spunky woman that came here full of fire and willing to argue why her love/affair was so all-consuming. Gone is the woman that was willing to stand up for what she wanted from the man she loves. Gone is the open-minded woman that at least was willing to hear opinions that differed from her own.

 

In her place is this lifeless woman. A woman that has closed her mind, and her heart. A woman that no longer has the emotional stamina to fight for what she deserves from the R. A woman that won't allow others to talk about her sitch with her because she is RESIGNED to it.

 

You are losing yourself to this affair. Full of bluster about how you were going to walk if he didn't start a divorce in March. Then you disappear from the forum and come back "happy". You've "accepted" things the way that they are. You are "enjoying the now". You don't even sound the same. You can't hide the pain that is reflected in your responses, no matter how "happy" you keep saying you are. Saying it over and over again will not make it so.

 

There is so much wrong with this affair and the mindset that you have allowed yourself to have to make it acceptable, its not funny. Its really sad. You don't talk much about it because you don't want the truth of it said back to you. But you don't have to say much for folks to know intuitively what's really going down.

 

I know what I am saying is not popular with the OW crowd here. But I don't care. Its obvious that you have lost yourself; that you are losing yourself. The life is being sucked right out of you. You don't even seem to see it. Affair or not, this R is changing you for the worst.

 

Your perkiness is gone Frannie. I used to see this animated woman in your posts. I used to see a spirited woman who knew what SHE wanted and was willing to demand it. She is gone.

 

I've always wanted to know, needed to know, when and if he was going to leave. There was no 'threat' to end it if he didn't come to a decision. We jointly decided, given the heartache it was causing, that the affair needed to end, and that if he couldn't leave, we would end the affair once and for all. Hence my asking him to post on S&D, and the entire thread there. There was no pathetic attempt from him to convince me of anything. He's always said what he felt and wanted, and has always been conscious of how wants fell short of abilities where leaving his children for his own needs were concerned.

 

He's never, not once, told me not to listen to anyone at all. In fact it would be hilarious if he did. He knows me well enough to know that I'll listen to and talk to whomever I like. Neither would he be much of a man in my eyes if he thought that restricting my intellectual or other activities. Far from it. It was I who suggested he read here and comment here, because it might help us to make a decision.

 

Regarding expenses, etc... are you suggesting he claims for hotels that he doesn't book through the company, or meals he doesn't have receipts for..? I don't know about your world, but in most worlds over here people have to submit receipts for expenses. Nor would he be claiming something he didn't spend. Your bad assumptions there.

 

I appreciate your comments come from the heart, and that you really want the best for me, but.

 

I'm still the same person I was when I came here... actually no, I'm not. I've learnt a lot. And what I've learnt is mainly about deciding what's good for ME, rather than trying to please everyone else in this situation. If that makes me someone with less fire, then I suppose I've been extinguished somewhat. For me, it means I'm through with twisting myself into pretzel shapes to prove that I'm better than anyone else. I'm determined to live life in the way I see fit for me. Everyone else can make their own decisions. End of argument.

 

I've not closed my mind to other opinions, they're free to hold them. I just realised that I don't have to live my life by other people's rules, I don't have to justify my decisions to a committee, and I'm certainly not going to do what everyone else with a grudge and a reason thinks I should do. If that's losing my fire then so be it.

 

And far from a 'lifeless woman' what I am is this: Someone whose life doesn't revolve around MM, someone who has taken her focus off him, and what he does, what his wife may think, how it may turn out, and what other people who don't know me from Adam think of my 'situation'. Someone who has put her focus onto her own life, her career, her friends, and her interests. Someone who doesn't spend hours a day perusing LS for some insight into her relationship, but just enjoys it for what it is. Someone who has quit obsessing about where it's going, whether there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, whether she's a 4%-er or anything other than being happy with what she has, and the things SHE can direct. What MM does is his affair... my life, my future, is down to me. And as I said in my first post... NOTHING he could do now could change how happy I am with my life, it's not going to change my career, my hobbies, where I go on Friday or anything. It's so easy to believe that 'him leaving' could 'make me happy' but when you get down to it... nothing outside of you can do that. Big, important, realisation.

 

I realise I don't sound at all 'the same'. My break from the forum was deliberate... I realised I'd been listening too much to opinion, trying too hard to fit in with the 'perfect ending' and staking my happiness on him leaving. Turns out I was wasting my time all along. But it took a whole lot of changes and years for me to get to where I am now.

 

You see it as my 'losing my fire'... and yes, I am sure that from the perspetive of who i was then, and what I wanted, and needed, for my life to be complete... I'm sure I'm now but an ember of that... but in place of that... it's me, happy with ME. Happy with my life. NOT wanting anything more, from anyone. Certainly not from MM. If he left tomorrow I would feel nothing more than I do today. I don't need it any longer.

 

And if that's not a good place to be, I don't know what is. I'll certainly not change it for anything.

[frannie]

A few weeks back, Frannie posted to say something like she was grateful that her mm thought enough of her to cheat to be with her. And that just because the bs had a wedding ring, well so what. It was full of biterness, her comments I mean.

I personally think she would like to wear his wedding ring one day.

 

So yes she has resigned herself to being the OW and is "happy" with it.

I thought about the "free" accommodation he gets but decided against pointing that out.

Neither Frannie nor her mm like anyone to disagree with them. The charade of posting on Separations was too much for me--especially when he told Lady Jane I think to stop posting.

He has broken her spirit and convinced her that she deserves nothing more.

 

She is in denial about his "love" for her. Most OW have enough self esteem and self confidence to move on when they are "rejected" not stay hanging around for more. He must have thought he had won the lottery when she agreed to remain his OW.

 

No, I didn't say anything about being grateful that MM was cheating with me. My post on OOD's thread was concerning this: that there is a great difference on being with a cheater... is he cheating ON you or cheating to BE with you. Now you may say, oh, he's just a cheater, and of course he is, but if someone cheated ON me he wouldn't be in my life any longer. Cheating on his wife isn't cheating on me. There was not 'gratefulness' of his being a cheater in any sense.

 

My comments were not full of bitterness, they were full of not spending enough time to debate the points in detail because I just don't get around to spending hours each day any longer on here. I posted, and didn't come back for a week... during which time assumptions were made. Well all I can say is, that if you can't stick by your feelings on people's characters from what they post, then don't make assumptions. Otherwise we may as well all throw our suggestions into a hat for all the good they do.

 

Resigned herself... free accomodation... don't like debate... broken spirit... denial... self esteem... self confidence and rejection.

 

Well since you don't know me from Adam that is all very interesting but completely wrong. Thanks for your input. Not.

 

Also, he didn't tell LJ to stop posting, just said he wasn't listening to her bluster any longer. Fair enough, I thought, though to be honest I would have preferred him to listen to everything... even stopped clocks are right twice a day, as the saying goes.

 

And here's your moment of glory: yes, he did think he'd won the lottery when I wanted to continue seeing him. See, he really did think that in deciding to stay he'd lose me forever. And he hadn't. To me that is an amazing ending... to you it means I've sold out and he's made a fool of me. Perspectives, perspectives.

[frannie]

Frannie, if you have finally reached the place where you are genuinely happy and content, then there is really no reason why you should wish to continue hashing your situation out over and over again. UNLESS you are still searching for answers within yourself.

 

No one can convince you that you’re not happy if indeed you are. As a matter of fact, even attempting to do so would only result in having you defend this married man’s actions towards all those involved... even more. Thus, firming up your position and solidifying your resolve to settle into a situation that you may or may not be fully content in.

 

“Reactance.”

 

And honestly, that would only do you a greater disservice. You need to remain fluid to possibility that one day you might very well get fed up and change your mind again. And feel completely free to do so without worrying about “how it might look” if you were to suddenly change your resolve after putting up such a damn good fight. And that has to come about on your own, without all the pushin’ and poddin’ from folks like us who seem more concerned about you than you are for yourself.

 

I absolutely agree that I may well drift away from this relationship... nothing about that would surprise me at all.

 

I didn't start this thread with any intention other than giving people a place to go on and on and on about my situation without clogging up other people's threads. It's not only recently, but since I started posting, that posters have questioned me and posted comments about my situation on others threads. I've never posted a thread myself about my relationship with MM because I've Never asked for any input.

 

But recently, the times I've posted to respond to others threads and become bogged down in answering questions about my relationship have got out of hand. So I thought that posting my own thread where people can direct their questions would be a great idea.

 

Plus any time someone asks me a question about my relationship on another thread I can just say... oh post it on my thread... and forget about it and perhaps just flitter past and never look at the damned thing again.. nice, eh..?

[frannie]

Highlighted what most people are concerned about.

The limitations of the relationship and her deluding herself that he is very much in love with her.

However the facts (especially her mm's actions or lack of them) just don't stack up to support this.

 

Exclusivity is worth fighting for, and if it is unobtainable with one person, then just move on because he is clearly prepared to let the affair go. She isn't (yet?).

 

It's not a delusion. He is in love with me. How could you possibly counteract that, not being a party to his emotions..?

 

He was prepared to let the affair go, given that the alternative was leaving his family. The family won out. That doesn't mean that therefore there is no love for me. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

All other things being equal (i.e. no family on his part) there would be no 'willingness to let me go' ... we would already be together, probably married by now I should imagine. The only reason ours and my decisions on our own showdown day differed were due to his pre-existing commitments... nothing to do with love.

[lonelybird]

It's not a delusion. He is in love with me. How could you possibly counteract that, not being a party to his emotions..?

 

He was prepared to let the affair go, given that the alternative was leaving his family. The family won out. That doesn't mean that therefore there is no love for me. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

All other things being equal (i.e. no family on his part) there would be no 'willingness to let me go' ... we would already be together, probably married by now I should imagine. The only reason ours and my decisions on our own showdown day differed were due to his pre-existing commitments... nothing to do with love.

If your husband cheat with other woman, are you ok with that? suppose he sleep with other woman, and when he make love to you, he closes his eyes and fantacy the other woman, suppose your husband is your current MM. how can a person genuinly happy when they hurt others???

[frannie]

Excellent post Can't Give Up!!! I was thinking along the same train of thought.

 

I was simply going to post that this could very well be the beginning of the end for Frannie's A, because now she stops fighting the idea that she might have him one day to herself which will free up more time to focus on the reality of their reltionship. I have a gut feeling that the relationship will change in time and become very different from what it once was and she will have the strength and certainty to act in a way that is closer to 100% as opposed to 40% or what have you.

 

Frannie this was not a jab towards your decision, I fully respect your happiness and the fact that you found peace within your situation. I just think that peace brings clarity.

 

That's exactly what has happened during the weeks (month or so, or how long is it now..?) since we had that terrible decision week. At first it was hard to know what to do at all, but once all was settled to seeing each other again it was a very VERY odd time of spending time together with no focus on the future... no frantic conversations, no goals or ulterior motives.

 

It was a peculiar time indeed... and to be honest there was a period when I was thinking well what the devil do we talk about now..? But it soon settled down into general conversations, nothing to do with leaving, and futures, and will you still love me's.

 

This time for me is happy, and peaceful, and I know that whatever the outcome it won't be fraught with distress, NC, pain and bitterness... whatever happens will be because it was a natural outcome to the dead-endness of our getting together, or a natural growth of who we are as individuals and a couple.

 

Maybe that will end in us splitting up, I just don't know. But if it does it will be slow and because of circumstance... and will feel all the easier because of it. What it won't be is sudden, and a result of either one of us needing to manipulate the other into action. If I say goodbye to him it will be because that seemed the natural thing to do.. and I'll probably not even notice it happening... rather than some unholy NC that I spend two years of my life trying to stick to when I could have been getting on with living.

[frannie]

If your husband cheat with other woman, are you ok with that? suppose he sleep with other woman, and when he make love to you, he closes his eyes and fantacy the other woman, suppose your husband is your current MM. how can a person genuinly happy when they hurt others???

 

If someone I was in a relationship with cheated on me I'd never want to make that all ok again... I wouldn't have the energy nor the will to do it. He would be out of my life.

 

Cheating ON me is a whole lot different to cheating. MANY people cheat on their partners... if someone cheated on me, he might be in the majority, but I'm not one to be cheated on. It would be over.

 

How can somoene be happy when they hurt others..? Well are you asking how I can be happy when his wife might be hurt..? I can be happy with what I have because my life is my responsibility. He has to answer for his actions, and his wife for hers. Their marriage I can do nothing about... neither should I. It is for THEM to deal with. That is my conclusion after many months of thinking of this. And please don't assume anything about how I feel about his wife, or his marriage... I've thought it through many many a night.

[frannie]

The trouble is she was so certain that she was going to end the affair, that she can't eat humble pie and so she saves face by telling everyone that she is "happy".

 

I bet she feels used, empty and humiliated when he shuts the door and heads back home to the family he clearly loves.

He won't give it up though, as it saves him having to book into a hotel and paying for any sexual favors he wants.

 

Yes, I was certain I was going to end the affair. And here I am eating humble pie. Actually it doesn't taste that bad. IF you'd been through the experience that I have perhaps you'd understand why I am now happy. But you haven't. Ergo how can you possibly comment?

 

I don't feel used, empty, nor humiliated when I wave him off to go to the house he shares with his children so he can spend time with them too. Actually, if that made me feel bad I'd make a pretty poor second wife too, eh?

 

And yes, he was prepared to give it all up. If you want to jump on bandwaggons you should probably note that the current reactionary position is that this proves that he was only too happy to get rid of me and just to add insult to injury he is only seeing me now because he's scared I might tell his wife.

[lonelybird]

If someone I was in a relationship with cheated on me I'd never want to make that all ok again... I wouldn't have the energy nor the will to do it. He would be out of my life.

 

Cheating ON me is a whole lot different to cheating. MANY people cheat on their partners... if someone cheated on me, he might be in the majority, but I'm not one to be cheated on. It would be over.

 

How can somoene be happy when they hurt others..? Well are you asking how I can be happy when his wife might be hurt..? I can be happy with what I have because my life is my responsibility. He has to answer for his actions, and his wife for hers. Their marriage I can do nothing about... neither should I. It is for THEM to deal with. That is my conclusion after many months of thinking of this. And please don't assume anything about how I feel about his wife, or his marriage... I've thought it through many many a night.

Well, it sounds like "I cut a deep wound on her heart, but it is her responsiblity to deal with the pain". Yes, they are responsible for their own marriage, but it is YOUR responsibility to withdraw. I guess you don't have to be responsible for anything, right?

[frannie]

When reading Frannie's post, this is what I saw too. As some one who doesn't know here history or story, this is how her post came across to me. It made me sad.

 

Those that know me here know that I am not in the least judgemental of OW. I can recognize the fact that As are real realationships that shouldn't just be dissmissed as nothing. I do get it, but what I read above sounded like some one that has become resigned that she will never get what she wants and deserves and has chosen to settle for less. If this was a regular relationship and not an affair I would feel the same way. It just made me kind of sad.

 

You were responding to someone saying I was 'resigned to it'.

 

Actually I don't think that's far off the mark. I would say 'accepting' of it. And I think that's where my contentment lies. For the first time since I met him I'm not HOPING for anything to change. I know the score, and I said 'yes' to it.

 

My history is that when I first met him, he was unhappy in his marriage and he wanted out... after a short time, when that became all too real to him in terms of leaving his kids he backed off and broke it off with me. I gave him some time to sort out his marriage...

 

... fast forward some months and we're back talking again, and he's saying he still can't leave, and I say oh well.. and think 'maybe' in my heart of hearts... and this went on for another few years. All the time he wanting to leave, but can't... it's been a continuing theme for three years now.

 

Well just this year I finally said enough, I can't deal with this constant indecision... either you leave or its over... he said he'll leave... I waited... he didn't leave. And then...

 

... and then I realised that he really, really did mean what he said back in that first year. While he has kids at home he can't leave. Perhaps, perhaps he never will (though he says he will I cannot believe that).

 

And so this is a new beginning. A situation I never would have chosen, but at least I go into it knowing where I stand, knowing that today may be all I have, and actually it's pretty good thanks. Whatever people may believe. I believe (because I've lived it) that the greatest pain for an OW is wanting wanting wanting things to change... things that are out of your power or control.

 

And I just don't have that pain any longer.

[frannie]

I don't know your man, but I know I was disturbed at the ease with which he was prepared to glibly lie to his wife's brother at the sporting event. What if you were introduced to him and the affair was later brought to light? How would than man feel? It was an avoidable lie and an avoidable situation with the potential to impose anger and hurt and embarassment on an innocent party in the form of a brother who presumably has some investment in his sister's hapiness and some reasonable expection of respect and kinship from her husband. I realize he did it so that you didn't feel dishonored, but it would be foolish to assume, as I did, that you will always be on the right end of the equation. You did the right thing in that situation by demurring that meeting, and I admire you for it.

 

I think what I'm trying to say Frannie is that I know you have put an awful lot of thought into everything. I'm sure your man is a fantastic guy in all kinds of ways. You've weighed it over and over from every angle, genuinely trying to do the right thing for you and for him. You have tried very hard to be realistic and you seem prepared for a number of different eventualities. Sadly, the one eventuality I don't think anyone is prepared for until they've lived it is discovering at some point that you're no longer living the life you thought you were any more than the betrayed spouse is. Not deserving dishonesty or abandonment doesn't mean it won't be imposed on you. No matter how far fetched or counterintuitive it seems to your experience thus far you *need* to ask yourself if you could live with giving your 40's to an experience like that.

 

Please just put in your back pocket as one more idea, stay really aware, and truly confront and explore any little feelings of unease that niggle in.

 

I truly do wish you the best.

 

 

Thanks for your post.

 

It continues to be something I just can't forget... how easily he can lie. And I just can't do it. You correctly noted that I did not want to put myself in that situation because I find lying hard, impossible even... everything about me would have given the game away, in my eyes. And yes, my biggest pain surrounding this is that HE LIES, to his wife, to his children, to everyone, about who he is, and that seems to be OK with him. And I just don't know how he can do it, or what it says about him. I just don't. I cannot fathom getting myself into a situation where lying is necessary to preserve a picture of 'who i am' which is why I declined to meet his family.

 

And don't think for one single minute that I'm ok with that, or that I ever forget it. I remember it every day of my life.

[frannie]

Excellent point about being desprate.

The point I have been "bluntly" making is just that.

Tom Cat if you read Frannie's post, when her mm made his decision, she had to persuade him to continue the affair as he thought it ws hurting her too much. So at that stage he though she (like most OW) would walk away. At that stage he was prepared to let her go (disposable).

 

I suggest to her that she could walk away as that is the only way she will find out what he is about. She did NC a few years back and she ended up resuming things, and he was happy to pick up with Frannie as he is a classic cakeman. You have a good point about him not really loving either women (although Frannie says he doesn't lie to his wife because she never phones when he is at Frannie's place). It seem strange then doesn't it, that he doesn't speak to his kids during the week after saying he is staying for their sake. But in my eyes he is of course deceiving his wife and was prepared to lie to his relatives at the sporting event and to include Frannie in his lies. The fact that he was willing to introduce Frannie as someone else suggests that no one within his family circle think he is cheating on his wife or he would have made damn sure that he was on his "own". So just how "unhappy" is his marriage?

 

He is trying a bit harder with Frannie because any gestures don't mean a thing as far as he is concerned. He has said he isn't leaving and now that she has decided to remain in his life, well he will show his gratitude. DO NOT FORGET THAT HE WAS PREPARED TO WALK AWAY FROM HER IN MARCH. Frannie is in the position of being totally subservient, she can't ask about the future, but as long as she is in it, she probably thinks, well things may still yet change. She is in denial. And she mistakes her mm still being in the affair as "love". Hmmm... They share moments togther and then he packs his bags and walks effortlessy away to another woman.

 

So he has already made his choice and has told Frannie. It is a nice little set up for him, don't overlook that point. No chance of being seen by his wife or children. Frannie is second best whatever way you dress it up. She has resigned herself to being a f*** buddy and she is happy with it!!!

 

Like all of us on here, I hope she can see the situation for what it is and decide to end things because she may still harbor thoughts that he may change his mind. I think she is very jealous of his wife and hence her comments about the wedding ring on another thread. Frannie is a huge ego trip for him. You reject someone and they still want you, fight for you to stay with them? As far as this man is capable of love he loves his wife and kids more.

What happens if Frannie's mm gets a job near his house. I would suggest that the affair would fizzle out.

 

If you read Frannie's response to Ratingsguy latest thread you will see that she hopes RG will one day not find his xmw attractive.

Now let's hope that Frannie can apply that to her mm and see him for what he is and what she has allowed him to do to her; destroy her spirit and self confidence and take away her dignity.

 

How can you reconcile him being anxious not to hurt me further with my being 'disposable'..? Why would any OW be disposable who was so 'on her knees' as you make me out to be? None of these arguments and theories I've read about his feelings about ending it make any logical sense, and this one perhaps less than most... but on to the rest of your post.

 

I don't need to walk away now, as I have done that before, and we've just gone through a very traumatic experience of trying to end the affair in one way or another.. I don't need to 'find out what he's about'... the whole point of this thread is making it clear that once an OW realises and knows what her MM is going to do the indecision (that which causes all the pain) is over... and things can just go on as they will. No more anxious nights, difficult conversations, arguments, reading websites about the effects of divorce on children... all over. Just time to see how things are between you and he and whether or not, at the end of the day, it's worth wasting breath on.

 

As everyone on the entire board probably knows, he phones home at night for about ten minutes to say goodnight to the children. That is the extent of it. I have no idea how much out of that time is spent chatting to his wife, but if that is the extent of their marriage then I would feel aggrieved about it if I were her.

 

No one suspects him of having an affair because they have no need to. Evidently either his wife doesn't ask or doesn't care what he does with his evenings. I can't really comment on her or her family's views on whether or not he's capable or showing any signs of having an affair.

 

I don't ask about the future, neither do I want to, or care. The future is far to far in the distance to make any impact on my life now. In fact its far likelier now that other things will happen than us getting together... discovery, boredom, one of us popping our clogs, who knows. There's no 'frannie can't ask about the future'... frannie doesn't need to know about the future.

 

And I just don't understand where his leaving this house, packing bags, driving off, or any other description of his going away means anything in terms of him loving his wife... after all he also packs his bag to come here, parks his car, comes up the drive, rings my doorbell... so what? Since when did going away from here mean more than coming? Or vice versa? That is a nonsense argument.

 

Regarding his making his choice and it was a 'nice little settle' ... actually he made his choice in the certain knowledge that that would be OVER for us. Get your facts right. That means, according to the received wisdom of LS, that he wanted rid of me, not that it was a 'nice little settle'. Once again things are twisted to mean certainty in one direction or the other, but always against the OW... funny that.

 

As for the F*** buddy comments, I think you are flailing around with no information or a bad dictionary.

 

I do see the situation for what it is. Glory be for that. And no, I don't need or want it to change. ditto. Evidently my points in my first post have gone right past you. The whole point is that if you DON'T need things to change and you ACCEPT the situation for what it is, then you can be very happy with being an OW. The whole pain lies in the striving and the needing, and the wanting and the hoping... or at least that is where it was for me. Nowadays its just an ordinary relationship... no need for it to get anywhere fast, no need for anything to change to 'make me happy'.

 

If he loved his wife and kids more.. then why is he making his life so 'difficult' and putting their happiness at risk daily..?

 

And lastly, he DOES have a job close to them. That is where his main office is. What he does is make sure he has reasons to be at other offices and 'work at home' (my home) whenever he can.

[frannie]

LL, although you are particularly pointed when it comes to expressing your views, there isn't one thing that I disagree with in your post.

 

Just hope that Frannie manages to break free from him when she is good and ready and I hope that is sooner rather than later.

I think one thing that makes it difficult for her, is that she sees her mm regularly and for a relatively long period of time (better than the 5 hours I put up with!).

 

I don't think Frannie has to wonder if he can spare the time each week to fit her in, and so she has some degree of certainty in her affair. This will probably make it more difficult for her to end it (so near and yet so far), but at the end of the day it is an affair, and the limitations exist, and he does return to his wife and children.

 

He has made it crystal clear that he's not leaving, and sometimes that makes people panic and they try to hold onto that person. The OW doesnot wantto be abandoned and even though it hurts like hell, they remain rather than being tossed aside.

Once the initial panic subsides, I think some OW start to look at the affair with different eyes, realise the mm is insincere, a liar and doesn't really love her. She begins to get fed up with the one-sided relationship and maybe her feelings subside or she says to herself "let him go to his family full time as he has chosen them".

 

I think there's a lot of sense in what you say.

 

All I can say is that I'm just looking at the relationship on a day-to-day basis now, and not planning for any future, or putting anything on hold. My reasoning was all about not wanting to lose what we had, and the knowledge that I would have to go through months and years of NC and trying to get him out of my life... when actually I could simply see him and have the life I had planned for that NC period at one and the same time.

 

Suddenly my ultimatum and need for him to be single was gone.

 

In its place is NOT what I wanted at all. In fact, what I hoped we would have may never happen, if only for the fact that the moment has passed... he can't 'make good' that time when I needed him to be there for me, because he chose other obligations. I don't begrudge him (or his children) that, but I think that something has been lost.

 

Even so, we shall see... If there's one thing I've learnt from this affair it's not to talk in absolutes and like I know what the outcome of anything will be.

[hardcase]

great post frannie. it is very true like gel said of how a lot of OW feel i believe. i am glad you are happy

 

Well now that you're happy, greeneyed is happy..frannie is happy..and all the OW are happy that she's happy and could care less about the wives that are being betrayed and the children that are affected....why don't you all have a party and start burning effigies of the MM's wives.

 

Maybe you can all get voodoo dolls of the MM's wives and torture them even further?

[hardcase]

Well, it sounds like "I cut a deep wound on her heart, but it is her responsiblity to deal with the pain". Yes, they are responsible for their own marriage, but it is YOUR responsibility to withdraw. I guess you don't have to be responsible for anything, right?

 

Of course they don't...as long as they get "theirs"...they could care less who they hurt in the process.

[frannie]

Well, it sounds like "I cut a deep wound on her heart, but it is her responsiblity to deal with the pain". Yes, they are responsible for their own marriage, but it is YOUR responsibility to withdraw. I guess you don't have to be responsible for anything, right?

 

Do you know her..?

 

Then how can you comment on how she feels right now?

 

My responsibility is for my own actions. It is YOUR belief that I should withdraw. But since I am not you, you have no say in the matter. Neither would I presume to tell you how to live your life.

[frannie]

Well now that you're happy, greeneyed is happy..frannie is happy..and all the OW are happy that she's happy and could care less about the wives that are being betrayed and the children that are affected....why don't you all have a party and start burning effigies of the MM's wives.

 

Maybe you can all get voodoo dolls of the MM's wives and torture them even further?

 

Oh... who said no one could care less about betrayed wives..? Or affected children..? No on on this thread.

 

But the fact that his marriage is shot to pieces and he lies to them all is something I'm not going to lose any more sleep over. After all, if I backed out of this what would really change..? She'll still be married to a man who doesn't love her, and her children will still be watching a couple who have no love for each other.

[lonelybird]

Well, if a married man ask me to hook up with him, I would lose ALL respect for him no matter how gorgeous he is:rolleyes: he should be called "boy"

[hardcase]

Oh... who said no one could care less about betrayed wives..? Or affected children..? No on on this thread.

 

 

You don't have to...your actions and your words of being happy to be the OW speak multitudes.

 

But the fact that his marriage is shot to pieces and he lies to them all is something I'm not going to lose any more sleep over.

 

Of course you won't...you fail to see any responsibility on your part for the destruction of a family. Yes...the MM is mostly to blame....just like a fire is to blame for a house burning down...but you don't see a fire dept. coming and dousing it with gasoline.

 

After all, if I backed out of this what would really change..?

 

You'd be a decent person.

 

 

She'll still be married to a man who doesn't love her, and her children will still be watching a couple who have no love for each other.

 

Ya...so why not get your fun out of it right?.....*rolling eyes*