Happy OW with no particular question..?

May 27, 2007

I understand Fannie decision , she shows that she loves him enough to accept his choices. We call that unconditional love.

May 27, 2007

Whereas his "love" for her is conditional.

May 27, 2007

I understand Fannie decision , she shows that she loves him enough to accept his choices. We call that unconditional love.

Actually, there are heavy conditions - his conditions: secrecy, no options for a future together, accepting that he goes home to his wife when he is not with her.

Her love is not unconditional either. If MM had told her he's not getting a divorce because he loves his wife and can't ever think of leaving her (instead of staying for the benefit of the kids), I believe she might find her love for him does have conditions.

Let's not romanticise unconditional love as a rationalization for settling.

May 27, 2007

I bet she feels used, empty and humiliated when he shuts the door and heads back home to the family he clearly loves..

If he "clearly loves his family" what is he doing lying to all of them to be with another woman, to share his love with another woman behind all of their backs? That man may love his children because he knows how to love in that capacity but his love for the two women in his life is questionable.

Clear as mud if you ask me....

May 27, 2007

If he "clearly loves his family" what is he doing lying to all of them to be with another woman, to share his love with another woman behind all of their backs? That man may love his children because he knows how to love in that capacity but his love for the two women in his life is questionable.

Clear as mud if you ask me....

You pre-suppose that he is in love with the OW.

I would question that.

At the end of the day, the primary relationship, his marriage, is the one he protects. He does not hurt or humiliate his wife by telling her that he has someone else. He probably is very selfish, thinking of himself foremost. He wants the least hassle. He likes the status quo.

You could argue that he doesn't really love either women, but Frannie deludes herself when she says he really loves and wants her but is staying for the kids.

People who love each other will make sacrifices and changes and he really isn't going anywhere soon.

As far as he is capable of love, he loves his family most.

Frannie is disposable in his eyes because he was prepared to let her go when he made his decision.

May 27, 2007

You pre-suppose that he is in love with the OW.
I would question that.

At the end of the day, the primary relationship, his marriage, is the one he protects. He does not hurt or humiliate his wife by telling her that he has someone else. He probably is very selfish, thinking of himself foremost. He wants the least hassle. He likes the status quo.

You could argue that he doesn't really love either women, but Frannie deludes herself when she says he really loves and wants her but is staying for the kids.
People who love each other will make sacrifices and changes and he really isn't going anywhere soon.

As far as he is capable of love, he loves his family most.
Frannie is disposable in his eyes because he was prepared to let her go when he made his decision.

I presupposed he loves neither, actually.

WOW if protecting your family from harm is sneaking around to hide an A and avoid at all costs getting caught, I'd hate to see what your definition of unprotecting your W/family is!?!?

Here's a thought, if you want to protect your spouse from humiliation, from harm from getting hurt, how about getting your sh@#$# together and ending the A once and for all?

On top of it you give the guy KUDDOS for mastering hiding the lies?

If people who love each other make sacrifices and changes for the ones they care about the most, why is this man stil with Frannie? I don't see him making any sacrifice/change for his W, for the woman you say he loves "most"!?!

As per your comment re. he can take Frannie or leave her she is "disposable" I'll see that when he disposes of her, for now I don't see any sort of disposing going on, au contraire, he is dead smack hanging on to her while he has his pseudo picture perfect family to go home to. Is that love or is that the epitome of comfort?

If you think that's love I would urge you to revise what the meaning of love is, if that is love I think I prefer hate.

May 28, 2007

Who are you--the moderator?

I am not trying to achieve anything except to express how I see the situation, and I believe I am allowed to do that.
You are selective in your attacks--you left INearlyDidnt alone. I agree with her post. Are you sure you read it?

Oh thanks, I've got 6 posts now!

Thanks, maybe I should change my career aspirations!

I did read NID's posts...and I'm not attacking anyone...NID's post was respectful and yours was not...you talk about Frannie in 3rd person, as if she isn't even here...the purpose of LS is to provide support and discussion not judgment and superiority...maybe you'll be able to recognize the difference now...

May 28, 2007

Hi Frannie. I haven't posted with you very much, but I have followed your story and have often hoped you'll find your happy ending one way or another.

I was an OW in an emotional affair over about 18 months. It ended very badly for me early this winter, and I am still living daily with the pain of some very hard lessons. You remind me of me six months ago- intelligent, compassionate, level headed, no sense of being naive. I know exactly those angst ridden conversations about futures, about love, and about doing the right thing. I know about pragmatism, marriages with children, sacrifice and the strange sense of nobleness and pre-destiny that can settle over star-crossed lovers.

You've aptly pointed out that many here are far too removed from your situation to truly know what is going on. I've learned the hard way that being too close can cause the same gaps in perception. Swept up and in love, we don't give adequate emphasis to the fact that being unfaithful requires a willingness and ability to be dishonest day in and day out. Affairs are inherently self serving, and this is true whether the straying partner is an absolute ass or a decent person genuinely struggling through life trying to find happiness through a cloudy, difficult situation.

Those of us who stumble into relationships with those bound somehow to someone else find ourselves in love with people who are some combination of any number of wonderful things. But they are also people who are capable of dishonesty whose life choices by definition justify lies, breed a sense of entitlement, and at least in some measure cash in true courage for self indulgence.

As co-conspirators we have an illogical sense that these parts of their personalities will never touch us. We are, after all, in on the secrets. We're practical and flexible and we faithfully communicate our understanding of the realities of the situation through our words and deeds. We are deeply in love. There is simply no reason for our affair partners to mislead us in such a safe, beautiful place. But Frannie, sometimes they do. Sometimes they do because on some level it's part of who they are, and in a way who they become more and more through the unique demands of an affair. In can happen suddenly, or slowly, within a framework of the best intentions on both sides. Even the straying partner may mistakenly believe his lover is insulated from his weaknesses for a time.

I don't know your man, but I know I was disturbed at the ease with which he was prepared to glibly lie to his wife's brother at the sporting event. What if you were introduced to him and the affair was later brought to light? How would than man feel? It was an avoidable lie and an avoidable situation with the potential to impose anger and hurt and embarassment on an innocent party in the form of a brother who presumably has some investment in his sister's hapiness and some reasonable expection of respect and kinship from her husband. I realize he did it so that you didn't feel dishonored, but it would be foolish to assume, as I did, that you will always be on the right end of the equation. You did the right thing in that situation by demurring that meeting, and I admire you for it.

I think what I'm trying to say Frannie is that I know you have put an awful lot of thought into everything. I'm sure your man is a fantastic guy in all kinds of ways. You've weighed it over and over from every angle, genuinely trying to do the right thing for you and for him. You have tried very hard to be realistic and you seem prepared for a number of different eventualities. Sadly, the one eventuality I don't think anyone is prepared for until they've lived it is discovering at some point that you're no longer living the life you thought you were any more than the betrayed spouse is. Not deserving dishonesty or abandonment doesn't mean it won't be imposed on you. No matter how far fetched or counterintuitive it seems to your experience thus far you *need* to ask yourself if you could live with giving your 40's to an experience like that.

Please just put in your back pocket as one more idea, stay really aware, and truly confront and explore any little feelings of unease that niggle in.

I truly do wish you the best.

May 28, 2007

81West-

Very good post. I think it really cut to the core of the issue in a very respectful way.

When I read the initial post in this thread it touched me in a very personal way. I was once in the position of making a MM chose between me and his wife. I wasn't chosen and it was devistating. Even though I had unintentionally ended up in the affair (not knowing he was still married), when I found out I wanted him to chose me. I really believed he loved me and he had told me I was his soul mate. He told me he was only still with his wife because of their kids. When he chose her, it killed me on the inside. I was tempted to aks him if we could keep seeing each other. I was desperate enough that I was willing to become the OW for as long as he would have me. I'm very glad that I never asked him for that. I deserved better that to be with a man that did not choose me.

I think that is were Frannie's post got to me. I'm not going to assume that her situation in any way resembles the one I was in, but my initial reaction to her post was sadness. If Frannie is simply resigning to stay with a man that did not chose her, I hope she finds a way out soon. She deserves to be chosen.

May 28, 2007

81West-

Very good post. I think it really cut to the core of the issue in a very respectful way.

When I read the initial post in this thread it touched me in a very personal way. I was once in the position of making a MM chose between me and his wife. I wasn't chosen and it was devistating. Even though I had unintentionally ended up in the affair (not knowing he was still married), when I found out I wanted him to chose me. I really believed he loved me and he had told me I was his soul mate. He told me he was only still with his wife because of their kids. When he chose her, it killed me on the inside. I was tempted to aks him if we could keep seeing each other. I was desperate enough that I was willing to become the OW for as long as he would have me. I'm very glad that I never asked him for that. I deserved better that to be with a man that did not choose me.

I think that is were Frannie's post got to me. I'm not going to assume that her situation in any way resembles the one I was in, but my initial reaction to her post was sadness. If Frannie is simply resigning to stay with a man that did not chose her, I hope she finds a way out soon. She deserves to be chosen.

Excellent point about being desprate.

The point I have been "bluntly" making is just that.

Tom Cat if you read Frannie's post, when her mm made his decision, she had to persuade him to continue the affair as he thought it ws hurting her too much. So at that stage he though she (like most OW) would walk away. At that stage he was prepared to let her go (disposable).

I suggest to her that she could walk away as that is the only way she will find out what he is about. She did NC a few years back and she ended up resuming things, and he was happy to pick up with Frannie as he is a classic cakeman. You have a good point about him not really loving either women (although Frannie says he doesn't lie to his wife because she never phones when he is at Frannie's place). It seem strange then doesn't it, that he doesn't speak to his kids during the week after saying he is staying for their sake. But in my eyes he is of course deceiving his wife and was prepared to lie to his relatives at the sporting event and to include Frannie in his lies. The fact that he was willing to introduce Frannie as someone else suggests that no one within his family circle think he is cheating on his wife or he would have made damn sure that he was on his "own". So just how "unhappy" is his marriage?

He is trying a bit harder with Frannie because any gestures don't mean a thing as far as he is concerned. He has said he isn't leaving and now that she has decided to remain in his life, well he will show his gratitude. DO NOT FORGET THAT HE WAS PREPARED TO WALK AWAY FROM HER IN MARCH. Frannie is in the position of being totally subservient, she can't ask about the future, but as long as she is in it, she probably thinks, well things may still yet change. She is in denial. And she mistakes her mm still being in the affair as "love". Hmmm... They share moments togther and then he packs his bags and walks effortlessy away to another woman.

So he has already made his choice and has told Frannie. It is a nice little set up for him, don't overlook that point. No chance of being seen by his wife or children. Frannie is second best whatever way you dress it up. She has resigned herself to being a f*** buddy and she is happy with it!!!

Like all of us on here, I hope she can see the situation for what it is and decide to end things because she may still harbor thoughts that he may change his mind. I think she is very jealous of his wife and hence her comments about the wedding ring on another thread. Frannie is a huge ego trip for him. You reject someone and they still want you, fight for you to stay with them? As far as this man is capable of love he loves his wife and kids more.

What happens if Frannie's mm gets a job near his house. I would suggest that the affair would fizzle out.

If you read Frannie's response to Ratingsguy latest thread you will see that she hopes RG will one day not find his xmw attractive.

Now let's hope that Frannie can apply that to her mm and see him for what he is and what she has allowed him to do to her; destroy her spirit and self confidence and take away her dignity.

May 28, 2007