green-eyed beauty Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 I know a couple who married, with the last names of miller and wells and their last name is now legally millerwells.
Mr. Lucky Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 I see it as a sign of submission. Why even get married, Lizzie? The union doesn't have much of a chance without some submission on the part of both spouses... Mr. Lucky
green-eyed beauty Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 My sister has been happily married for 11 years and she kept her name.
Flyin in Clouds Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 Don't you think your going a little over board with that statement? She could easily turn that back on you. First is IpAncA female or male? (or neither?) It is an issue that I am not willing to negotiate. If the Mrs. doesn't want to Mrs. Flyin in Clouds then we don't have a marriage. My grandmothers all took my grandfather's name. My mother took my father's name. My wife took mine and my daughter took her husband's name. Like I said it is tradition. and like lots of tradition, Church, xmas, thanksgiving dinners, Halloween, Easter bunnies, I think they are darn good things. If my wife didn't agree then we'd have a basic incompatibility which is why the marriage wouldn't last. My wife happens to be as traditional about these things as I am, which is probably partly why we've survived 30+ years together. I do think it is also a factor in why none of my ancestors got divorced. Of 8 aunts and uncles not one was divorced. My grandparetns were not divorced. Now why is that? Nobody in my family was divorced until my cousin's H ran off with her best friend from high school. They were family friends... Feminism has destroyed a lot of traditional values. And that's caused a whole lot of problems. Sure feminism has solved some problems. Opened up opportunity for women, which is a good thing. But at what cost? Divorce. Abortion. Desctruction of families. The harm to children born and unborn. Women find it offensive to "submit" to their husbands? Why should a man "submit" to his wife? How is that a natural or traditional order of things? Someone has to be head of household. How well does it work if women insist on getting their way? By devaluing a man, by reducing him to being a woman, how is that helpful to a family? By confusing the roles of mother and father, wife and husband, man and woman, deciding they are all equally interchangable, how is that helpful to a family, to kids, to society? For any of you that want a long term marriage maybe you ought to try making it a traditional marriage. Take the man's name. Acknowledge his leadership. Sumbission? Why not? Or do you feminazi's expect your man to submit to you? If you find a guy that wants that fine. But I don't think it works well for most guys and gals. Just isn't traditional. And tradition did come about for a reason. It wasn't totally irrational or illogical or unreasonable. Lizzie60 spake thus: I find that when women take their husband' s last name...they lose their own identity... I am SOOOO against that. Keep your last name... If he argues tell him he can take yours...why not? I would not lose my identity for any man on this planet. They don't like it...too bad. I am a person not anyone's possession!!!!And your marriages have last how long? Lose your identity? No, you gain an identity. A new one. A married one. A new family one. And if you can't be proud of that then I don't need that kind of woman. Keep your name, keep your identity, but you can't keep me. My mother was Mrs <dad's first name> <dad's last name>. She spoken in the plural almost always. We... not I. Our ... not mine or my. Our house, not my house. Our home, our family, we this and that. That is what it is to be married, truly married. To be one. One family. My mom recently passed away, and even though my father passed away over 8 years ago, the utility bill was still sent to Mrs. <dad's first name> <dad's last name>... and that didn't cause any loss of identidy for my mother. but just because someone doesn't want to follow tradition doesn't mean that they are an awful person. Absolutely right Riddler. If a man agrees his wife shouldn't change her name. But of the people I knew that did that, most are divorced now. Did that have anything to do with it? Maybe. Maybe it weakended the bond. Perhaps. But for me it is a deal breaker. Just as not getting married in a church would have been a deal breaker. Not wanting to have children, or a long list of other things that were and are important to me would have been deal breakers. what's wrong with each keeping their own identity. Because that is two individuals living together, not forming a family. What about a family identity? First of all, I don't believe in 'till death do us part' so it's one less trouble when divorce comes. So what do you belive in? And I'd bet you never will have a relationship "until death" parts you. Now women are finally getting their fair and equal rights and it just kills some men to see this. No, it kills families. Women don't need the "same" rights as men. Equal but different can work. I do feel sad for the girl who is giving up her identity. My daughter didn't give up her identity. She is still who she has always been. She just changed her last name to her husbands so their kids would have his name. She's honoring her husband that she loves. Gee imagine that. A woman so in love with her man she's willing to change her name. wow... Also I want that outfit in your avatar. But with straps to hold it up. LOL! I'd just like my wife to wear that outfit in Lizies's avatar... What's wrong with keeping her identity? How far back should my daughter follow the maternal line? And which great-great-great-grandmother's maiden name should she use? yes I do feel sad for the girl to give up her name... I see it as a sign of submission. No one in the world will make me see a good reason for this. I truly can't see any. My daughter and my wife honored their husbands because they loved them. Lizzie, no offense, but I doubt you could understand that kind of love. why can't it be the other way around? The man taking his wife's last name? Because it's traditional? Why can't a man have a dozen wives? Why can't a woman have a dozen husbands? Why just one? Tradition. If you want a wimpy, feminized male as an H I guess he could take your name. If you want to be dominate and he submissive, fine. But that isn't the way it works for MOST men and women that marry. I suppose if the WOMAN asks the MAN to marry... then he should take her name. But if the woman wants the man to ask her to marry him then I think she ought to SUBMIT... There are some men and women that have no problem with the new world order. But some men and women want nothing to do with what kind of new world order and much prefer traditional marriage.
Curmudgeon Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 Submission is NOT part of the equation. If I'd wanted a submissive wife I certainly wouldn't have married the one I have. One of the things that attracted me to her from the day we met was what I call her "delightful independence." I quite agree with the "tradition" argument. Of course, I'm also the resident old fart here but I agree that a family unit should have a single name to bind and identify it. I find it uniting, even given the reality that in this day-and-age of easy divorce, family units in which husband and wife share one last name often contain children with one or more different last names. If I'd wanted to be married to a passive dependent I could have stayed with the ex. I want a woman who's challenging, interesting, active, engaged. In other words, I want a woman just like my wife, not a Stepford wife. I can't think of anything more vapid and boring than that!
Curmudgeon Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 For women to take HIS last name is a form of submission... I'll have to tell my wife that, but first I want to make sure my bags are packed and I've tratransferred half our holdings into my name alone. Strange as the concept might be to you, taking my last name when we married was an act of love on my wife's part. "Submission" isn't in either of our vocabularies.
Curmudgeon Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 Why even get married, Lizzie? The union doesn't have much of a chance without some submission on the part of both spouses... Lizzie never has and she has a prediliction for other womens' husbands so I really don't give much credence to her arguments on a marriage-related subject.
green-eyed beauty Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 First is IpAncA female or male? (or neither?) It is an issue that I am not willing to negotiate. If the Mrs. doesn't want to Mrs. Flyin in Clouds then we don't have a marriage. My grandmothers all took my grandfather's name. My mother took my father's name. My wife took mine and my daughter took her husband's name. Like I said it is tradition. and like lots of tradition, Church, xmas, thanksgiving dinners, Halloween, Easter bunnies, I think they are darn good things. If my wife didn't agree then we'd have a basic incompatibility which is why the marriage wouldn't last. My wife happens to be as traditional about these things as I am, which is probably partly why we've survived 30+ years together. I do think it is also a factor in why none of my ancestors got divorced. Of 8 aunts and uncles not one was divorced. My grandparetns were not divorced. Now why is that? Nobody in my family was divorced until my cousin's H ran off with her best friend from high school. They were family friends... Feminism has destroyed a lot of traditional values. And that's caused a whole lot of problems. Sure feminism has solved some problems. Opened up opportunity for women, which is a good thing. But at what cost? Divorce. Abortion. Desctruction of families. The harm to children born and unborn. Women find it offensive to "submit" to their husbands? Why should a man "submit" to his wife? How is that a natural or traditional order of things? Someone has to be head of household. How well does it work if women insist on getting their way? By devaluing a man, by reducing him to being a woman, how is that helpful to a family? By confusing the roles of mother and father, wife and husband, man and woman, deciding they are all equally interchangable, how is that helpful to a family, to kids, to society? For any of you that want a long term marriage maybe you ought to try making it a traditional marriage. Take the man's name. Acknowledge his leadership. Sumbission? Why not? Or do you feminazi's expect your man to submit to you? If you find a guy that wants that fine. But I don't think it works well for most guys and gals. Just isn't traditional. And tradition did come about for a reason. It wasn't totally irrational or illogical or unreasonable. And your marriages have last how long? Lose your identity? No, you gain an identity. A new one. A married one. A new family one. And if you can't be proud of that then I don't need that kind of woman. Keep your name, keep your identity, but you can't keep me. My mother was Mrs <dad's first name> <dad's last name>. She spoken in the plural almost always. We... not I. Our ... not mine or my. Our house, not my house. Our home, our family, we this and that. That is what it is to be married, truly married. To be one. One family. My mom recently passed away, and even though my father passed away over 8 years ago, the utility bill was still sent to Mrs. <dad's first name> <dad's last name>... and that didn't cause any loss of identidy for my mother. Absolutely right Riddler. If a man agrees his wife shouldn't change her name. But of the people I knew that did that, most are divorced now. Did that have anything to do with it? Maybe. Maybe it weakended the bond. Perhaps. But for me it is a deal breaker. Just as not getting married in a church would have been a deal breaker. Not wanting to have children, or a long list of other things that were and are important to me would have been deal breakers. Because that is two individuals living together, not forming a family. What about a family identity? So what do you belive in? And I'd bet you never will have a relationship "until death" parts you. No, it kills families. Women don't need the "same" rights as men. Equal but different can work. My daughter didn't give up her identity. She is still who she has always been. She just changed her last name to her husbands so their kids would have his name. She's honoring her husband that she loves. Gee imagine that. A woman so in love with her man she's willing to change her name. wow... I'd just like my wife to wear that outfit in Lizies's avatar... How far back should my daughter follow the maternal line? And which great-great-great-grandmother's maiden name should she use? My daughter and my wife honored their husbands because they loved them. Lizzie, no offense, but I doubt you could understand that kind of love. Because it's traditional? Why can't a man have a dozen wives? Why can't a woman have a dozen husbands? Why just one? Tradition. If you want a wimpy, feminized male as an H I guess he could take your name. If you want to be dominate and he submissive, fine. But that isn't the way it works for MOST men and women that marry. I suppose if the WOMAN asks the MAN to marry... then he should take her name. But if the woman wants the man to ask her to marry him then I think she ought to SUBMIT... There are some men and women that have no problem with the new world order. But some men and women want nothing to do with what kind of new world order and much prefer traditional marriage. I'd *almost* buy into the "feminists ruining marriage these days" point that a few men on here subscribe to if there wasn't more physical abuse by men going on more than ever. I'm not really a 'feminist' but no one in a relationship should 'submit' to anyone. It should be an equal partership, and you make decisions together, not submit. My sister didn't change her name and she is in a loving marriage for 11 years, I know a guy whose wife cheated on him for 7 years so he divorced her, well, she had the same name. See, the men who make posts like this see the world as that of men's and women are placed on this earth simply to please and satisfy them. It's not like that. And honestly I don't consider myself a "feminist" or "feminazi" for feeling this way, I'm not. The fact is, the people I associate this really don't have these feelings...it could be because I'm educated and work with professional males and females who understand that women and men can live in harmony and women are not evil. LOL Honestly, you don't really hear groups of intelligent, educated individuals speaking the way you do. And most of these people are in happy, healthy relationships. The men I know are respectful of women and admire women. They don't go posting about how awful American women are these days and how men shouldn't marry them because they have better things to do with their time.
Mustang Sally Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 And tradition did come about for a reason. It wasn't totally irrational or illogical or unreasonable. I appreciate your view, FiC. I'm not so black and white with the issue anymore, though. It's not something that I think should be a dealbreaker between two people, but that is just my opinion. Hopefully, if you (I mean collective "you" here, not you personally) have chosen a SO wisely and carefully, and they really care about you, then the two of you can work through this kind of issue to the mutual satisfaction of both. I don't think it is something that needs to be one-size-fits-all couples, but again, that is just my humble opinion. Each is entitled to their own point of view. Nevertheless, all those reasons you cited are things I took into consideration when I added my H's name to mine. I kept my maiden name as part of my married (conglomerate, if you will) last name because I was already established professionally and it was simpler to be known professionally as "Maiden Name" and informally as Mrs "H's last name." Could you please remind me what the reason behind this name tradition is? Seriously. I'm not being a smarta$$ here. I really don't remember what the exact historical reasoning behind it is, and I don't want to assume I know what it is if I am incorrect. Thanks.
green-eyed beauty Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 In other cultures, don't women keep their name to some extent? In Japan?
tanbark813 Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 What's wrong with keeping her identity? You can only lose your identity through a partnership if you didn't have much of an individual identity to begin with.
Jinxx Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 why can't it be the other way around? The man taking his wife's last name? I know of a couple who did just that -- took the wife's name. Weird in my opinion. I was hell bent on keeping the exes name when I remarried because we had children together. Very confusing for schools, doctors, etc. I only changed it because I married the second time to someone who had the same first name as husband number one. Didn't want him to be referred to as Mr. exes last name.
Lizzie60 Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 Why even get married, Lizzie? The union doesn't have much of a chance without some submission on the part of both spouses... Mr. Lucky I am against marriage... IMO it's a big waste of everything. I never got married and never will.
Curmudgeon Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 That's correct. To find it a bit closer to home, look to Mexico. It's still male-based, however. The woman is keeping her father's name. The "tradition" of a woman taking her husband's name does date back to a time when women were considered their husband's property and were not permitted to have property of their own. In the Judeo-Christian culture, "family" was such an important concept that if a man's brother died, the man was supposed to marry his brother's widow (you could have multiple wives then) but that was not just to see that she was taken care of. It kept his brother's property in the family. In time it evolved into the "tradition" that still persists, despite my generation's best efforts to do away with it.
Lizzie60 Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 My sister has been happily married for 11 years and she kept her name. In Quebec I think it's the only province where the woman cannot take her husband's last name... and I think it's a lot less trouble. and I should add that she married a 'modern' guy (not an old-fashioned macho).
Touche Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 You can only lose your identity through a partnership if you didn't have much of an individual identity to begin with. Excellent point. My identity is not wrapped up in my name. It goes a lot deeper than that. Yes, I took my husband's name but I made my maiden name my legal middle name. Funny about the hypenated names. They seem to be bad luck. I hypenated in my first marriage and look how that turned out! My H didn't want me to do that and I didn't.
Citizen Erased Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 Well I am not married but I certainly will take my bf's name when we eventally marry (or if ). Mainly because my last name is actually my dad's ex-stepfather, a man I think I have met twice. I have no attachment to the name, I would prefer to take the name of a person I have an actual family with. Plus I can't stand my father so I shudder to think of having his name for the rest of my life. But I can see why many women keep their name, I saw what a pain in the bum it was for my mum to change her name back to her maiden name after the divorce. Credit cards, uni certificates, medicare cards, drivers licence etc etc.
Lizzie60 Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 First is IpAncA female or male? (or neither?) It is an issue that I am not willing to negotiate. If the Mrs. doesn't want to Mrs. Flyin in Clouds then we don't have a marriage. My grandmothers all took my grandfather's name. My mother took my father's name. My wife took mine and my daughter took her husband's name. Like I said it is tradition. and like lots of tradition, Church, xmas, thanksgiving dinners, Halloween, Easter bunnies, I think they are darn good things. If my wife didn't agree then we'd have a basic incompatibility which is why the marriage wouldn't last. My wife happens to be as traditional about these things as I am, which is probably partly why we've survived 30+ years together. I do think it is also a factor in why none of my ancestors got divorced. Of 8 aunts and uncles not one was divorced. My grandparetns were not divorced. Now why is that? Nobody in my family was divorced until my cousin's H ran off with her best friend from high school. They were family friends... Feminism has destroyed a lot of traditional values. And that's caused a whole lot of problems. Sure feminism has solved some problems. Opened up opportunity for women, which is a good thing. But at what cost? Divorce. Abortion. Desctruction of families. The harm to children born and unborn. Women find it offensive to "submit" to their husbands? Why should a man "submit" to his wife? How is that a natural or traditional order of things? Someone has to be head of household. How well does it work if women insist on getting their way? By devaluing a man, by reducing him to being a woman, how is that helpful to a family? By confusing the roles of mother and father, wife and husband, man and woman, deciding they are all equally interchangable, how is that helpful to a family, to kids, to society? For any of you that want a long term marriage maybe you ought to try making it a traditional marriage. Take the man's name. Acknowledge his leadership. Sumbission? Why not? Or do you feminazi's expect your man to submit to you? If you find a guy that wants that fine. But I don't think it works well for most guys and gals. Just isn't traditional. And tradition did come about for a reason. It wasn't totally irrational or illogical or unreasonable. And your marriages have last how long? Lose your identity? No, you gain an identity. A new one. A married one. A new family one. And if you can't be proud of that then I don't need that kind of woman. Keep your name, keep your identity, but you can't keep me. My mother was Mrs <dad's first name> <dad's last name>. She spoken in the plural almost always. We... not I. Our ... not mine or my. Our house, not my house. Our home, our family, we this and that. That is what it is to be married, truly married. To be one. One family. My mom recently passed away, and even though my father passed away over 8 years ago, the utility bill was still sent to Mrs. <dad's first name> <dad's last name>... and that didn't cause any loss of identidy for my mother. Absolutely right Riddler. If a man agrees his wife shouldn't change her name. But of the people I knew that did that, most are divorced now. Did that have anything to do with it? Maybe. Maybe it weakended the bond. Perhaps. But for me it is a deal breaker. Just as not getting married in a church would have been a deal breaker. Not wanting to have children, or a long list of other things that were and are important to me would have been deal breakers. Because that is two individuals living together, not forming a family. What about a family identity? So what do you belive in? And I'd bet you never will have a relationship "until death" parts you. No, it kills families. Women don't need the "same" rights as men. Equal but different can work. My daughter didn't give up her identity. She is still who she has always been. She just changed her last name to her husbands so their kids would have his name. She's honoring her husband that she loves. Gee imagine that. A woman so in love with her man she's willing to change her name. wow... I'd just like my wife to wear that outfit in Lizies's avatar... How far back should my daughter follow the maternal line? And which great-great-great-grandmother's maiden name should she use? My daughter and my wife honored their husbands because they loved them. Lizzie, no offense, but I doubt you could understand that kind of love. Because it's traditional? Why can't a man have a dozen wives? Why can't a woman have a dozen husbands? Why just one? Tradition. If you want a wimpy, feminized male as an H I guess he could take your name. If you want to be dominate and he submissive, fine. But that isn't the way it works for MOST men and women that marry. I suppose if the WOMAN asks the MAN to marry... then he should take her name. But if the woman wants the man to ask her to marry him then I think she ought to SUBMIT... There are some men and women that have no problem with the new world order. But some men and women want nothing to do with what kind of new world order and much prefer traditional marriage. I found your post sooo hilarious... I don't think I will waste my time trying to explain my POV to you... because obviously you won't understand it. I just can't believe this!!! Please re-read your post..or have your wife read it.. and.. oh never mind, she's probably completely submissive and she will agree to whatever you say. geezzz
Lizzie60 Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 I'll have to tell my wife that, but first I want to make sure my bags are packed and I've tratransferred half our holdings into my name alone. Strange as the concept might be to you, taking my last name when we married was an act of love on my wife's part. "Submission" isn't in either of our vocabularies. This is soooooo macho... taking my last name when we married was an act of love on my wife's part my my... what was YOUR act of love? LOL...too funny
Lizzie60 Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 I'd *almost* buy into the "feminists ruining marriage these days" point that a few men on here subscribe to if there wasn't more physical abuse by men going on more than ever. I'm not really a 'feminist' but no one in a relationship should 'submit' to anyone. It should be an equal partership, and you make decisions together, not submit. My sister didn't change her name and she is in a loving marriage for 11 years, I know a guy whose wife cheated on him for 7 years so he divorced her, well, she had the same name. See, the men who make posts like this see the world as that of men's and women are placed on this earth simply to please and satisfy them. It's not like that. And honestly I don't consider myself a "feminist" or "feminazi" for feeling this way, I'm not. The fact is, the people I associate this really don't have these feelings...it could be because I'm educated and work with professional males and females who understand that women and men can live in harmony and women are not evil. LOL Honestly, you don't really hear groups of intelligent, educated individuals speaking the way you do. And most of these people are in happy, healthy relationships. The men I know are respectful of women and admire women. They don't go posting about how awful American women are these days and how men shouldn't marry them because they have better things to do with their time. So well said... I agree 110% with you Honestly, you don't really hear groups of intelligent, educated individuals speaking the way you do I was thinking the same thing and I am not a 'hard-core' feminist either...just a normal, intelligent, educated woman.
Touche Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 I agree with FIC about just about everything but like Curmdgeon, "submission" is not a part of our marriage. Neither one of us submits to the other. Do we negotiate thing and compromise when we don't agree? Yes. But we don't submit. And so far (12-year anniversary next month) it's worked for us.
Curmudgeon Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 Promising to love, HONOR and cherish her. I've kept my part of the bargain, as has she, and it's worked just fine for going on 11 years. There's nothing macho about it, Lizzie. My wife and I we're friends who admired and respected one another for five years before we ever went out together. That admiration and respect are still hallmarks of our friendship which is also the very strong base on which our marriage is built. It's realy NOT a strange or foreign concept. One might even call it ::::shudder:::: traditional!
Touche Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 I know...I don't get what is so bad about tradition. Why are people so quick these days to want to eschew tradition? Hello, but in many instances something is a tradition because it WORKS. I wonder if there's some study out there that deals with this. I'll just bet that marriages that are more traditional (including the woman taking the man's last name) outlast those more "modern" type of marriages. Just a hunch.
Curmudgeon Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 Likely a good hunch at that. Somehow traditional marriages, as a concept, have survived for thousands of years. Newer isn't always better, is it? One of the main reasons we're moving out of California and to the south-east when I retire in a few years is to return to an area that does a far better job of preserving history and tradition than is done on the left coast. Here, if it's over 10 years old it gets torn down to make way for something newer and I'm not only talking structures.
sunshinegirl Posted May 22, 2007 Posted May 22, 2007 My two older sisters are married; one kept her own name, the other took her husband's last name. Both marriages are strong and happy. (The sister who kept her own name uses it professionally. Their kids have her H's last name, and the nameplate outside their house reads "The [H last name] House".) What feels a little bit missing from this debate is some empathy from the men who are very adament about tradition. For a moment, can you imagine how you would feel if someone told you that you needed to change your name? Please, before dismissing that as ridiculous or impossible or stupid, could you just reflect for a couple of minutes on how you would feel in being asked to "give up" a very visible part of how you are known in the world? How would you feel if the request came from someone you love? How would you feel if the request was based on some tradition that many many others before you have done, but that you personally don't feel connected to? Would any part of you struggle with it, even if in the end you agreed to change your name? I think men have a hard time relating to the feeling of "losing" their identity in this way - they've never been asked to! And with the average age of marriage being later and later, women spend more of their lives using their maiden/birth names...and therefore they are 'attached' to their name for more years than perhaps in times past. So I can really empathize with the struggle that some women feel over this issue. And I wish the men could empathize more too.
Recommended Posts