JerryG Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 Hey everyone, Don't worry, this isn't a nice guy vs. jerk debate (yet again....). This is mainly for the ladies. I've recently started to reform some "Nice Guy" tendancies that I have. I was really improving at this, but there have been some recent "Nice Guy" slip-ups with a long-time friend I have and with whom I've been getting closer with lately. Q: In the early stages of a relationship forming, is too late to reform "Nice Guy" ways if you have slipped up a bit?
Tony T Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 I'm a guy but from experience I can tell you it's never too late. As a matter of fact, you may be genius. If you slip up and then change, it shows you are unpredictable and this drives young women up a wall. I think the best thing to be is nice, but not too nice...and VERY unpredictable. Once a young woman knows she's got you, her interest will wane in many cases. Do your thing and if you forget and do something really nice for her, then don't call her for three or four days....hahaha....that will drive her nuts.
funkify Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 It's never too late to be nice. It's respect for others.
Author JerryG Posted May 19, 2007 Author Posted May 19, 2007 Thanks for the advice Tony, I will do that. My problem is that I use to give compulsively, but instead I should wait until people ask me for help, instead of trying to guess what they need or want. It's my hope women don't get turned off that easily. My friend is bipolar, so sometimes she seems distant, while sometimes she loves me. Cheers, Jerry
Lizzie60 Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 I'm a guy but from experience I can tell you it's never too late. As a matter of fact, you may be genius. If you slip up and then change, it shows you are unpredictable and this drives young women up a wall. I think the best thing to be is nice, but not too nice...and VERY unpredictable. Once a young woman knows she's got you, her interest will wane in many cases. Do your thing and if you forget and do something really nice for her, then don't call her for three or four days....hahaha....that will drive her nuts. 'playing games' but I have to agree though... eventhough I think it sucks in a way, that most people are like that... meaning we (well most) don't like people that are 'too nice' too 'cutesey', too predictable. For some reason, men/women will just go wild for someone who is independant and let them wait or long for them a little ... it is effective.
Tony T Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 Thanks for the advice Tony, I will do that. My problem is that I use to give compulsively, but instead I should wait until people ask me for help, instead of trying to guess what they need or want. It's my hope women don't get turned off that easily. My friend is bipolar, so sometimes she seems distant, while sometimes she loves me. Cheers, Jerry Hey, Jerry, your biggest problem may be the bipolar issue. I have absolutely nothing against people with mental challenges but unless your friends has an incredible doctor who can get her medications JUST RIGHT you will have a life of hell ahead of you if you get involved with her in a permanent way. I beg you to do a LOT of research and study your relationship very carefully over time. Again, people who are bipolar are very good people with extremely difficult challenges. It's awfully easy to get sucked in to a codependent relationship with one. Google "codependent" if you don't know what that is. By the way, if your lady friend is truly bipolar, no strategy you use will be good enough. She'll love you one day and hate you the next. I have friends who are bipolar and I call them once a month and the conversation may last five minutes....or just 30 seconds....depending on where they are in their brain chemistry cycling.
burning 4 revenge Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 Hey, Jerry, your biggest problem may be the bipolar issue. I have absolutely nothing against people with mental challenges but unless your friends has an incredible doctor who can get her medications JUST RIGHT you will have a life of hell ahead of you if you get involved with her in a permanent way. I beg you to do a LOT of research and study your relationship very carefully over time. Again, people who are bipolar are very good people with extremely difficult challenges. It's awfully easy to get sucked in to a codependent relationship with one. Google "codependent" if you don't know what that is. By the way, if your lady friend is truly bipolar, no strategy you use will be good enough. She'll love you one day and hate you the next. I have friends who are bipolar and I call them once a month and the conversation may last five minutes....or just 30 seconds....depending on where they are in their brain chemistry cycling.I think you're getting bi-polar and borderline mixed up. My sister is extremely bi-polar...shes even been institutionalized..but its long periods of depression, followed by long periods of stablity and occasional bouts of mania lasting several months where she hallucinates and becomes paranoid. Borderline people can shift gears hourly and their feelings about you can turn from love to hate in a matter of seconds with no provocation. They're also clingy, which my sister is not. Ane they're usually very promiscuous and prone to drug use which my sister is not.
alphamale Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 yes you are correct B4R....the only people who know what bipolar really is are the people who have it and their doctors. either way JG...if she's on meds and under the care of a doctor you should be ok
Tony T Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 I think you're getting bi-polar and borderline mixed up. My sister is extremely bi-polar...shes even been institutionalized..but its long periods of depression, followed by long periods of stablity and occasional bouts of mania lasting several months where she hallucinates and becomes paranoid. Borderline people can shift gears hourly and their feelings about you can turn from love to hate in a matter of seconds with no provocation. They're also clingy, which my sister is not. Ane they're usually very promiscuous and prone to drug use which my sister is not. Regardless of whether or not I've got them confused, you've made an excellent case for being extremely careful before getting involved with people with either of these maladies. Many thanks.
Tony T Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 yes you are correct B4R....the only people who know what bipolar really is are the people who have it and their doctors. either way JG...if she's on meds and under the care of a doctor you should be ok Whut??? OK??? In any case I seemed to have hijacked this thread over to mental illness...but only to show this guy that he's working with a bad subject as far as the nice guy thing is concerned. That is irrelevant with this gal, in my opinion.
alphamale Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 Q: In the early stages of a relationship forming, is too late to reform "Nice Guy" ways if you have slipped up a bit? well it depends on what you did...can you elaborate? always remember that being "nice guy" is kiss of death with women.
monkey00 Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 i think what theyre referring to is hot and cold, which can work wonders iwth certain women. Can you list some 'nice guy' things you did, or perhaps are you just overanalyzing yourself here?
Trialbyfire Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 Please make sure that you clearly define the difference between nice guy and doormat tendencies, before you decide to make any further changes. Nice guy tendencies are good. Doormat tendencies are bad.
Author JerryG Posted May 19, 2007 Author Posted May 19, 2007 Thanks for the responses everyone. Yes, I have been investigating the bipolar issue. I've read countless threads on LS about it, as well as having investigated it on the internet. She does not seem to be an extreme case, and has taken to her meds fine, but.....I'm still preceding with caution. I'm patient and understanding, but I do have boundaries, and I'm carefully evaluating whether persuing a relationship with her would be benifitial as compared to a friendship. As for the "Nice Guy" things. Let me first explain, when we usually hang-out at school i'm not a total doormat. We have a flirty relationship; we are not afraid to "bust each others balls", nor challenge each other. The flirtiness can be complicated by the bipolarism re: the hot and cold issue. I haven't ever bought her anything nor tried to pay for lunch or anything like that. Some ways that I've felt I've slipped up:\ 1) Offering to help her study for a test (in addition to other school work cause I was bored with my own research), even though she didn't ask. She ended up appreciating it though. 2) When she has had to errands on campus, I've gone with her to keep her company 3) When she missed her favourite show, I volunteered to download and burn it on to a CD for her. The next week, I found a website where is was online and gave it to her, even though she didn't ask for it. 4) When we were on campus one day, I volunteered to drive her downtown so she could catch a commuter bus 5) I offered to help her find volunteer teaching placements cause my mom is a retired teacher. As well, if she got stuck when teaching at my former school, I told her to call me if she needed a ride (cause the bus routes are crappy to the school) 6) We share an office at school, and I know the last place she wants to be is at summer school, so I brought down some tea/tea biscuits/instant noodles to the office in addition to changing the background of the computer to a sunflower, her favourite flower. 7) Today, we had a BBQ on campus which she couldn't make, so I grabbed an extra plate of food and left it in the office for her to grab. Again, I feel as though I'm staring to slip back into the "Nice Guy" was of things, and I do appreciate all of you guys replying to this thread Jerry
Trialbyfire Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 What has she done for you to reciprocate all the nice things you've done for her?
Author JerryG Posted May 19, 2007 Author Posted May 19, 2007 Trial by fire, That's it exactly. I have not got anything in return asides from a few thanks. I know things need to be more tit-for-tat, hence my speculation that I was demonstrating "Nice Guy" traits. I just hope these things have not come off as totally desperate, and that its not too late. Jerry
Tony T Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 Trial by fire, That's it exactly. I have not got anything in return asides from a few thanks. I know things need to be more tit-for-tat, hence my speculation that I was demonstrating "Nice Guy" traits. I just hope these things have not come off as totally desperate, and that its not too late. Jerry So she doesn't give much in return, uh? Don't discount the fact that she may have some elements of narcissistic personality disorder. Add that to your research.
oppath Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 I wouldn't worry about bipolar/borderline/depression. If someone is receiving treatment, they are fully capable of relationships and productive lives. 20% of the population will have a mental illness at some point in their lives. It's usually the strong and successful who are smart enough to seek help and treatment. If you ever have a family, you, your spouse, or one of your kids will at some point suffer from mental illness. It's not a big deal. A little research goes a long way towards understanding. The things you did aren't doormat, the thing you need, however, is for her to do things back! For example, my ex burned me copies of cd's she thought I'd like, so I made her a compilation album. She loaned me some dvds, so I bought her a tshirt that was personal to me. Back and forth. She lived at home with her parents (I'm not doing that again), and they'd give me dinner, so on Halloween I'd bring mini pumpkins and gourds for decoration. Give and take. She probably gave more, actually, I'm hesitant to give too early in a relationship. I'd back off slightly and not give too much unless the relationship progresses. The things you are doing aren't bad, wussy behaviors at all. Most women would enjoy those things...if they are giving in return. Make sure you are getting a payback on your investment. Nothing is wrong with being nice guy. Most women eventually want that; they just want the guy to still be strong and a little unpredictable. They want a guy who can stand up for himself, not necessarily in a talk **** macho kind of way, but in an assertive way. The actions you take are fine, but space them out, and make sure she gives back.
Author JerryG Posted May 19, 2007 Author Posted May 19, 2007 Yes, I think your right, I should back off a bit. I've noticed a pattern that when some of my relationships begin to develop, I start "trying too hard", instead of just letting things flow the way they naturally seem to do. This in turn starts to upset the balance of the relationship and eventually it falters. Being only 21 and a "late bloomer", of course I'm going to make mistakes, I'm just trying now not to repeat mistakes that I've made in the past.
alphamale Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 1) Offering to help her study for a test (in addition to other school work cause I was bored with my own research), even though she didn't ask. She ended up appreciating it though. Don't help her study...this is "nice guy" behaviour. She's responsible for her own grades, not you. 2) When she has had to errands on campus, I've gone with her to keep her company why? you should be accompanying her on dates, not on errands... 3) When she missed her favourite show, I volunteered to download and burn it on to a CD for her. The next week, I found a website where is was online and gave it to her, even though she didn't ask for it. again..."nice guy" behaviour. you come off as grovelling for her attention. 4) When we were on campus one day, I volunteered to drive her downtown so she could catch a commuter bus let her get her own ride 5) I offered to help her find volunteer teaching placements cause my mom is a retired teacher. As well, if she got stuck when teaching at my former school, I told her to call me if she needed a ride (cause the bus routes are crappy to the school) 6) We share an office at school, and I know the last place she wants to be is at summer school, so I brought down some tea/tea biscuits/instant noodles to the office in addition to changing the background of the computer to a sunflower, her favourite flower. tsk tsk JG...you're digging the whole deeper. Why not just tattoo "I'm nice guy" on your forehead? 7) Today, we had a BBQ on campus which she couldn't make, so I grabbed an extra plate of food and left it in the office for her to grab. No....she's supposed to be doing this for you. Again, I feel as though I'm staring to slip back into the "Nice Guy" was of things, and I do appreciate all of you guys replying to this thread Sorry JG but after your additional info I would take a guess that you're already in friends zone with her. Women generally don't care that much about niceness....they care more about the masculinity factor.
frannie Posted May 19, 2007 Posted May 19, 2007 The thing about 'Nice Guy' is... that being nice is really, at base, a means of manipulation. Otherwise you'd just be you. What's the point of 'niceness'? The reason it's not appreciated is that nice behaviour expects nice behaviour or favours back. The real thing to be asking here is... do you want to do these things because you want to do them..? Or do you want to do them SO SHE will do something nice in return..? Because as nice and reciprocal and so on that it all sounds, I don't think that 'being nice' in the hope/expectation that other people will reciprocate is ever a good thing. Behave how you ARE, and how you want to be. Don't do things because you think you should, or because you hope you're going to get a reward or something from someone. Let her be her, and you be you.
Trialbyfire Posted May 20, 2007 Posted May 20, 2007 Hmmm...interesting perspective and some valid points. Keep in mind that an honest nice person must draw the line somewhere, otherwise takers will take all.
Author JerryG Posted May 20, 2007 Author Posted May 20, 2007 Those are all very interesting viewpoints, thank you!! frannie - for a while, my viewpoint in life was to give without expecting anything in return, and even though I can tell myself this consciously, subconsciously I've always questioned whether I actually do expect something in return. This is what made me realize the "Nice Guy" tendencies I had. alpha - yes, I know I quite probably I am in the friendzone. I've been friends with this girl for 4 years, and I didn't really start to develop any sort of feelings until quite recently, when I noticed (while trying to date another female) that our relationship had become quite flirty. There are of course some instances I've seen where friendships can turn into relationships, and although I'd be willing to at least try in this case, I'm won't be devastated if it doesn't - there are plenty of fish in the sea!
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