Impudent Oyster Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 Do you keep up with people's stories or do you just like to dish? Maybe you should go back and read HAL's posts that explain his story before you spew! Geez!!!!!!!!!! As a matter of fact, I DO know HAL's story, how he was married to his first wife for 20 years, cheated in her with his current wife and love of his life for 40 years, how he would never cheat now and risk losing her yadda, yadda, yadda... I just think it's somewhat disingenuous to proclaim how he would never hurt his wife by cheating on her, when that's exactly what he did to the first wife. Wife number one he didn't mind hurting, because he got what he wanted in the process. She was just collatoral damage of his selfishness. I know HAL is a god to all the OW here because he's one of the few MM who actually left and married his OW, but come on, don't let the stars in your eyes cloud the fact that people aren't always as altruistic as they claim to be.
frannie Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 I just think it's somewhat disingenuous to proclaim how he would never hurt his wife by cheating on her, when that's exactly what he did to the first wife. Wife number one he didn't mind hurting, because he got what he wanted in the process. I'm not sure exactly how to express this in just a few lines, but here's an attempt. Not everyone really cares if you cheat on them, not everyone even deserves one's care and attention, because they're too busy ignoring a person, or just aren't interested, won't listen, or have their own priorities. No, not everyone who is cheated on is the same, for very many reasons. Just my opinion.
movinon05 Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 IO, I think you're missing a few details. HAL can correct me if I'm wrong, but according to his posts, his marital problems started 5 years into the marriage and he told his wife for years he was going to leave when their son went to college (in another 15 years or so) and she did nothing to make changes in their lives so that would not happen, and he, in fact, waited til his son went to college. He just happened to meet OW/now wife not long before he left. I don't consider HAL a god. It makes no difference to me as far as OW who like to see a happy ending. I'm fully aware most As don't end with happy endings. But I feel you are taking much credit away from this man who says he did what he could 50, 40, 30 years ago.
TogetherForever Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 :love:Mine is not a fairytale. It is real life that will have a happy ending:).
frannie Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 I know HAL is a god to all the OW here because he's one of the few MM who actually left and married his OW, but come on, don't let the stars in your eyes cloud the fact that people aren't always as altruistic as they claim to be. Well I seem to have missed the HAL becoming a God thing. But in response to the second part of your post.. no, people aren't altruistic. Neither should they be. Which is why people tired of giving getting nothing in return end up seeking something for themselves... ... no one wants to be trapped in a situation where they're not getting their needs met.
reddog63 Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 Who's to judge a M ® anyway? Many marriages that started as two single people together are sucky... That's why some people choose to divorce... I was trying to write thoughts but basically they come down to what greeneyedlady said. When you are in what you feel is a sucky marriage, it is understandable why people end up cheating. And yes, you can argue that the ideal thing to do is to leave before you fool around. That is somewhat idealistic. The complications of life, kids, guilt, blah blah blah is quite difficult and quite scary.
Impudent Oyster Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 IO, I think you're missing a few details. HAL can correct me if I'm wrong, but according to his posts, his marital problems started 5 years into the marriage and he told his wife for years he was going to leave when their son went to college (in another 15 years or so) and she did nothing to make changes in their lives so that would not happen, and he, in fact, waited til his son went to college. He just happened to meet OW/now wife not long before he left. I don't consider HAL a god. It makes no difference to me as far as OW who like to see a happy ending. I'm fully aware most As don't end with happy endings. But I feel you are taking much credit away from this man who says he did what he could 50, 40, 30 years ago. Thanks for the details...but, why was it up to the wife to make changes in their lives? Why did he wait until their son went to college? See, I don't see that as a good thing, I would never want someone to stay married to me out of obligation, or more than likely, lack of inertia. And I'll give credit to someone who's been married a very long time and NEVER cheated or "stayed for the kids". Sorry, but in my book that's not stepping up, it's the cowards way out. I'm happy for HAL that he's happy with his wife, but spare me the baloney about not cheating because he doesn't want to hurt anyone. That's a line and we all know it.
Impudent Oyster Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 And yes, you can argue that the ideal thing to do is to leave before you fool around. That is somewhat idealistic. The complications of life, kids, guilt, blah blah blah is quite difficult and quite scary. I disagree, it's NOT idealistic. People in unhappy marriages who fool around are cowards. They're afraid to be alone, they want to make sure they've got someone in the wings before they let go of their spouse. Are you seriously implying that it's less complicated to add an affair into the "complications of life, kids, guilt, blah blah blah"? I don't think so.
frannie Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 When you are in what you feel is a sucky marriage, it is understandable why people end up cheating. And yes, you can argue that the ideal thing to do is to leave before you fool around. That is somewhat idealistic. The complications of life, kids, guilt, blah blah blah is quite difficult and quite scary. Absolutely. You summed up in a few words what is the reality for most of these situations.
frannie Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 Why did he wait until their son went to college? See, I don't see that as a good thing, I would never want someone to stay married to me out of obligation, or more than likely, lack of inertia. No, its not a good thing, but it's what people do. Because they think it's right. And it shows that some people's priorities are with THE KIDS rather than the spouse (or even themselves). Some people stay because they think it's right for their children... not for them, and certainly not to please their spouse. But because they think it's 'right' from that perspective. Not a 'lack of inertia' but because they think their kids would be better served by a continuation of the status quo. NOT because of the spouse in any way shape or form.
frannie Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 I disagree, it's NOT idealistic. People in unhappy marriages who fool around are cowards. They're afraid to be alone, they want to make sure they've got someone in the wings before they let go of their spouse. Are you seriously implying that it's less complicated to add an affair into the "complications of life, kids, guilt, blah blah blah"? I don't think so. People who fool around don't usually have any intention of leaving. They are well and truly stuck because of various reasons.. children, finances, family expectations. They don't fool around 'because they need someone to be there' before they leave. MOST people having affairs don't leave, nor have any intention of leaving. Most people in affairs are cheating because their relationship with their spouse does not fulfil them. But they made a promise to stay, and now that promise is compacted with finance, and children.
IpAncA Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 I was trying to write thoughts but basically they come down to what greeneyedlady said. When you are in what you feel is a sucky marriage, it is understandable why people end up cheating. And yes, you can argue that the ideal thing to do is to leave before you fool around. That is somewhat idealistic. The complications of life, kids, guilt, blah blah blah is quite difficult and quite scary. No it's not understandable. There is no excuse for cheating. Cheating should never been an option. What a selfish irresponsible thing to do. I disagree, it's NOT idealistic. People in unhappy marriages who fool around are cowards. They're afraid to be alone, they want to make sure they've got someone in the wings before they let go of their spouse. Are you seriously implying that it's less complicated to add an affair into the "complications of life, kids, guilt, blah blah blah"? I don't think so. I agree and yes IMO cheating makes it more complicated.
movinon05 Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 Thanks for the details...but, why was it up to the wife to make changes in their lives? Why did he wait until their son went to college? See, I don't see that as a good thing, I would never want someone to stay married to me out of obligation, or more than likely, lack of inertia. And I'll give credit to someone who's been married a very long time and NEVER cheated or "stayed for the kids". Sorry, but in my book that's not stepping up, it's the cowards way out. I'm happy for HAL that he's happy with his wife, but spare me the baloney about not cheating because he doesn't want to hurt anyone. That's a line and we all know it. For me, I take into account of the way the times were back then. According to him, he tried to talk to the wife about what he was unhappy about but she wasn't willing to budge. As for staying til the son was in college, again, I'm thinking of the mindset back then. Fast forward to today, I'd be in disagreement. I don't know what his mindset was about "the baloney about not cheating because he doesn't want to hurt anyone". I don't know that he said that. His R with his first wife was obviously not good for a very long time - many years! I think that's different than the R he has with his current wife who he feels completely fulfilled with.
frannie Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 No it's not understandable. There is no excuse for cheating. Cheating should never been an option. What a selfish irresponsible thing to do. Well there you go.. cheating almost always IS an option. And I think that is where people go wrong... they think that their spouse either wouldn't or shouldn't do it when really the always have that option available to them. No, there is no 'excuse' but... there is always a reason. And if you have no clue about your spouse and who they really are and what they really want, and you turn your back to them I am willing to bet that they have a reason you have no idea about. Now what is more important to you..? A good, close relationship with your spouse? Having similar interests/sexual needs to your spouse? Etc. Of course, people can mistakenly marry a Narcissist or psycopath or someone of that nature who has no control over themselves and really loves nobody... but when you're talking about real life people and relationships... people don't just wander off unless something is being neglected at home.
frannie Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 According to him, he tried to talk to the wife about what he was unhappy about but she wasn't willing to budge. This is the same with my MM. HE SAYS that she doesn't want to know... and now he doesn't care to indulge in those conversations. I can see that in some of the ways he is... and I can understand how he feels, given that I've heard her on his phone a couple of times. The thing is, relationships can go down the pan really quicky, and I think that if you hooked up too young with someone you don't find it easy to communicate with, kids and inlaws and so on came in the meantime, and then you grew in your own personal needs outside of their (to you) narrow and exclusive aims... ... then you end up feeling justified in looking outside the marriage.
reddog63 Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 I disagree, it's NOT idealistic. People in unhappy marriages who fool around are cowards. They're afraid to be alone, they want to make sure they've got someone in the wings before they let go of their spouse. Are you seriously implying that it's less complicated to add an affair into the "complications of life, kids, guilt, blah blah blah"? I don't think so. I do not agree with that blanket statement. I understand your point of view. Hell, I am not even going to argue with it. And, no, it does not make it less complicated to add an affair. I just understand the road map that takes people to that option. I always understood that both spouses have needs. When they do not get met and time goes by, one will start to withdraw from partnership. And yes, the best thing would be to leave first. But that is a hard scary road and it is so much easier to find someone else first.
IpAncA Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 Well there you go.. cheating almost always IS an option. And I think that is where people go wrong... they think that their spouse either wouldn't or shouldn't do it when really the always have that option available to them. No, there is no 'excuse' but... there is always a reason. And if you have no clue about your spouse and who they really are and what they really want, and you turn your back to them I am willing to bet that they have a reason you have no idea about. If he or she wanted to they could, but I can't see a reason to. There's no reason to do it IMO unless there's a list I haven't read. Sure the cheater will come up with something, most do and IMO, so do the ones that help. But I refuse to see their reason as a reason to do it.
frannie Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 If he or she wanted to they could, but I can't see a reason to. There's no reason to do it IMO unless there's a list I haven't read. Sure the cheater will come up with something, most do and IMO, so do the ones that help. But I refuse to see their reason as a reason to do it. Are you talking of reasons, or excuses..? There are a hundred and more reasons why someone would spend time, conversations, soft touches, looks, smiles, and more on another person. Whether or not there are any excuses is another matter. That doesn't change the fact that it will happen if the heart is empty or needing something.
IpAncA Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 Whether or not there are any excuses is another matter. That doesn't change the fact that it will happen if the heart is empty or needing something. So are you suggesting there are excuses? BTW where are you getting your fact from? I guess OP I don't see how a fairytale can come from an A. Someone is going to get hurt and for what? So the OW can say they stole the the MM away and can live in la la land? Fairytale is the wrong word to be using IMO.
reddog63 Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 No it's not understandable. There is no excuse for cheating. Cheating should never been an option. What a selfish irresponsible thing to do. I agree and yes IMO cheating makes it more complicated. To me it does not matter who the person is. I am sure many who have had an affair thought they would never be one to do that. But, as I think someone said, it is just human nature to look elsewhere when you not happy. Put in the wrong position in a marriage and anyone could slip up and end up cheating. Have your hubby not pay enough attention to you, not help with the kids much, want to just sit on the couch or is terrible in bed, etc. .....have enough of those things happen and let years slip by....... in the right circumstances you could end up in an affair. You could be the tiny minority that would never do so. But my money is on, never say never.
IpAncA Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 To me it does not matter who the person is. I am sure many who have had an affair thought they would never be one to do that. But, as I think someone said, it is just human nature to look elsewhere when you not happy. Put in the wrong position in a marriage and anyone could slip up and end up cheating. Have your hubby not pay enough attention to you, not help with the kids much, want to just sit on the couch or is terrible in bed, etc. .....have enough of those things happen and let years slip by....... in the right circumstances you could end up in an affair. You could be the tiny minority that would never do so. But my money is on, never say never. Yeah I agree anything is possible if put in the wrong circumstances. It's just sad if there turly is a tiny minority that wouldn't.
frannie Posted May 31, 2007 Posted May 31, 2007 So are you suggesting there are excuses? BTW where are you getting your fact from? I guess OP I don't see how a fairytale can come from an A. Someone is going to get hurt and for what? So the OW can say they stole the the MM away and can live in la la land? Fairytale is the wrong word to be using IMO. No, I left excuses completely out of it. I don't really think excuses matter, to be honest. I care whether something is going to happen or not, not whether there is going to be anything to say after the matter, or people can be blamed or whatever... what do 'excuses' matter? Why things happen, and whether or not you can prevent them is surely far more important than whether or not you can point fingers after the event? Who cares about that? What I care about is a good relationship. I could care less about whether I can or can't stand on the moral high ground when my life is swimming around me because I thought I was 'in the right' all along. So what?
Impudent Oyster Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 Not a 'lack of inertia' but because they think their kids would be better served by a continuation of the status quo. NOT because of the spouse in any way shape or form. If it helps to think that way, then by all means, but when a parent cheats, they also cheat on their children. If you think a spouses reaction to the discovery of an affair is devastating, you've probably never heard about how an older child reacts when they find out a parent, especially one they look up to, has cheated. They're destroyed.
Impudent Oyster Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 That doesn't change the fact that it will happen if the heart is empty or needing something. Not necessarily. Not everyone cheats, not everyone needs that kind of validation. There are people in this world who have integrity.
Impudent Oyster Posted June 1, 2007 Posted June 1, 2007 Put in the wrong position in a marriage and anyone could slip up and end up cheating. Have your hubby not pay enough attention to you, not help with the kids much, want to just sit on the couch or is terrible in bed, etc. .....have enough of those things happen and let years slip by....... in the right circumstances you could end up in an affair. . There are certainly a good number of people smart enough to realize that you don't fix one relationship by getting into another, and I really don't think it's a tiny minority. I think there are a lot of smart women out there who put their kids above themselves, and who don't need to complicate their lives. We don't all "slip up". Frannie, you write a lot about how marriage works, how many years have you been married? I've been married for over 20, and 18 have been fantastic, we had about 2 rough years. I could've bailed and made up excuses and justifications for cheating pretty easily, but it's a good thing I didn't. No marriage is perfect all the time. People give up too easily.
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