Tomcat33 Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 8 months is how long it has been since he found out.. if anything I would think that some change would be completed by now.. certainly you would think he would have a different outlook on things in 8 months times.. This is why I have repeatedly suggested therapy... In 8 more months it will be 16 months since he found out.. he won't be any better off unless he can get rid of the anger... Therapy is where he needs to start Exactly! 8 months IS a long time to be at a stand still position with his personal progress and that of the relationship. I'm not saying he should be over it but he should have some sort of progress, how could there be so many unanswered questions still and want to stay with someone that does not wish to open up? Something just doesn't make sense here...either he is not bieng completely honest, or he is really afraid of moving and quite frankly will put up with anything to keep the marriage going....inlcluding the possibility that his W still lies to him.
serial muse Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 She very well might be. I'll give you that. But... she'd be STUPID to hand this man any more ammunition, considering how he's reacted to what he's heard already. The WS is often just as distrustful as the BS. Maybe they aren't worried about their partner cheating.. but, they often feel like they can't trust their partner with any kind of emotional vulnerability. This is very true, and all the more reason why I hope HC will consider counseling. MC can be a safer space for both parties to open up and talk honestly, and if nothing else, it might give HC some answers, in an environment in which trust is being strengthened and restored (rather than further broken down, as would be the ultimate result of someone submitting to a lie-detector test, IMO). One thing MC can do is pierce through many of the emotions and devastation that lead to catastrophic, black-or-white, i'm-right-you're-wrong feelings, and give people a place to talk honestly, and more calmly - without fear of immediate reprisal - about what's really going on and what they are really thinking. Although it's clear you feel (and were!!) wronged and you want satisfaction, HC, if you want answers - and I really think you do, in order to move forward and find peace - you may need to be willing to go somewhere more neutral where your wife is able to open up and confess. At the moment, she's too clearly intimidated to be willing to give you what you need to move on - so you're at a standstill. At the very least, you should give yourself the chance to understand her, and to better evaluate whether staying in the marriage is truly for the best (for you, and for your children).
Trialbyfire Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 Exactly! 8 months IS a long time to be at a stand still position with his personal progress and that of the relationship. I'm not saying he should be over it but he should have some sort of progress, how could there be so many unanswered questions still and want to stay with someone that does not wish to open up? Something just doesn't make sense here...either he is not bieng completely honest, or he is really afraid of moving and quite frankly will put up with anything to keep the marriage going....inlcluding the possibility that his W still lies to him. No, it's not. 8 months isn't that long when the other person isn't willing to give you what you need to get rid of your anger and more importantly, regain a modicum of trust. The anger is to block the pain and softer emotions. Been there, done that.
serial muse Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 No, it's not. 8 months isn't that long when the other person isn't willing to give you what you need to get rid of your anger and more importantly, regain a modicum of trust. The anger is to block the pain and softer emotions. Been there, done that. Word! How true this is.
Art_Critic Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 No, it's not. 8 months isn't that long when the other person isn't willing to give you what you need to get rid of your anger and more importantly, regain a modicum of trust. The anger is to block the pain and softer emotions. Been there, done that. We don't really know if he trusts her or not.. because he vents here.. We don't know anything about his marriage.. good or bad other than what he is willing to talk about.. So really none of us.. me included can't tell if 8 months is long enough to heal or not long enough.. by his own admission he said his real life is totally different than he posts about on LS.. He might have already reached the softer emotions you spoke of.. he might have already gotten rid of all his anger.. His marriage may actually be great for all we know.. he may fully trust her and they might not be heading toward divorce. There is no right or wrong here.. He comes here looking for help.. We all gave it too him..all sides.. it is up to him and his wife to make their marriage work .. and it is also up to him to make the changes that he needs to make to stay and remain happy.
a4a Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 Word! How true this is. Word x2! 8 months is nothin'........ hell it probably took 2 months to just sink in.
hardcase Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 According to him she did..... only he can't "prove it" because she won't take a lie detecter test that he requested her to do. But because she refuses to take the test then that's the nail in her coffin that she did cheat during marriage. no..the "nail" is that she would stay out til 4am partying with her friends and not a one of her friends can make up there minds about her whereabouts from 1am when the bars closed til 4am. She would say...I was at so and so's house and we were winding down shooting the bull...and the friend would say there were somewhere else. This has happened several times and I never thought a thing of it until I found out that she has cheated on me before. That coupled with the fact that she is scared of the LDT. She knows she will fail it.
a4a Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 no..the "nail" is that she would stay out til 4am partying with her friends and not a one of her friends can make up there minds about her whereabouts from 1am when the bars closed til 4am. She would say...I was at so and so's house and we were winding down shooting the bull...and the friend would say there were somewhere else. This has happened several times and I never thought a thing of it until I found out that she has cheated on me before. That coupled with the fact that she is scared of the LDT. She knows she will fail it. So what if she did fail....... then what?
hardcase Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 I don't read very well? Did Inot quote you verbatum? one more time: she raised her voice..I might have raised mine a bit...but so what Yes...and I said "so what"....because people fight and it has nothing to do with whose responsibility for the fight. It had to do with the comment of you calling me an abuser because we had a fight....people fight you know... If I'm an abuser because we had a fight, then she's an abuser because she started..and everyone in the entire world is an abuser because there isn't a one of us that can say, "we never fight".
hardcase Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 whoaah this may have already been addressed but i had to address this before I read anymore. You think staying home caring for a 2 and a 5 year old is being lazy? Maybe she likes caring for her OWN children instead of a daycare doing it. No..she didn't like keeping a job before we were married and even before we had kids...she just doesn't like work. And I have stayed home with the kids for a couple weeks on vacation when she actually was working....I'll take staying at home anyday if I didn't have any responsibilities whatsoever.
hardcase Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 HC I totally see your point. And if it were me that cheated I would jump at the chance for a LDT, piss test, brain scan, even toe nail clipping testing to prove that I did not anything else. Anything to help ease the pain I caused you by my own stupidity and selfishness - If indeed I wanted to save the M and had nothing to hide. I would admit to everything, do what you wanted me to..... just in hopes of reaching some ground where there is a possibility move things ahead. But if she did this would you be willing to move forward? If she passed the test...yes. One of the questions would be...do you love your husband and want to be with him for the rest of your life? If she answered yes and it showed she was being untruthful...then I'd be at the attorney's office the very next morning. If she was being truthful...that would make all the difference in the world. Also I so agree with you on the pre marital or post marital cheating.... it does not matter if the M lic. was signed or not, she did indeed stand up and lie without giving you the benefit of knowing who you were really marrying. That is so sad..... and I would imagine makes you feel like your M is a big fat lie. I agree..... that was rotten and trickery IMHO. Add on the late nights........ pretty suspicious as well....she probably did dink around. But now what do you really want to do about it? You are torturing yourself as well as her (not that I have much sympathy for her). Thing is..I'm trying to use my time productively (at least when not on here:o )....I mean, here I am doing something for myself and she is trying to make me feel bad about it?..Oh no she didn't!
Trialbyfire Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 We don't really know if he trusts her or not.. because he vents here.. We don't know anything about his marriage.. good or bad other than what he is willing to talk about.. So really none of us.. me included can't tell if 8 months is long enough to heal or not long enough.. by his own admission he said his real life is totally different than he posts about on LS.. He might have already reached the softer emotions you spoke of.. he might have already gotten rid of all his anger.. His marriage may actually be great for all we know.. he may fully trust her and they might not be heading toward divorce. There is no right or wrong here.. He comes here looking for help.. We all gave it too him..all sides.. it is up to him and his wife to make their marriage work .. and it is also up to him to make the changes that he needs to make to stay and remain happy. He doesn't trust her as evidenced by his posts. In real life he may pretend to trust her but there would be no need to vent if he really trusted her. I agree with the bolded portion to an extent. He's sitting on the knife edge right now, waiting for her to make good (LDT or some other means). From what we've seen, she's given him the minimum effort by staying within the bounds of no-partying. If she does provide that extra push, I feel he will put the effort into the marriage because I think he still loves her. If she doesn't, I think he's gone.
Art_Critic Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 If she passed the test...yes. One of the questions would be...do you love your husband and want to be with him for the rest of your life? You want guarantees that nobody gets.. Can you pass the same test ? If she takes the test and has to answer perverse questions then so should you have to answer those same questions and not fail either.. One failed question and off to the attorneys she goes.. She might even ask questions about your anger.. or questions about things that have happened in your marriage that you haven't spoken about..could you handle that ? I don't really think you are thinking straight..
Tomcat33 Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 [/b] Yes...and I said "so what"....because people fight and it has nothing to do with whose responsibility for the fight. It had to do with the comment of you calling me an abuser because we had a fight....people fight you know... If I'm an abuser because we had a fight, then she's an abuser because she started..and everyone in the entire world is an abuser because there isn't a one of us that can say, "we never fight". Don't twist my words around, as IF I would call you abuser because you got into a fight. I called you abuser because you take special pleasure in seeing your W get insecure about why you work out so much and the fact that it turned into a fight instead of shutting out her insecurities makes me believe you take special pleasure in making her feel uneasy. No matter how you slice it, if you love someone you should try to reassure them if they have doubts, isn't that what you expect from her? If she does things to make you feel insecure then she is also abusing you, but the post was about you and what gives you pleasure. THAT added on to your general angry attitude....you are in a place of resistance in general terms.
Tomcat33 Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 Can you pass the same test ? If she takes the test and has to answer perverse questions then so should you have to answer those same questions and not fail either.. One failed question and off to the attorneys she goes.. She might even ask questions about your anger.. or questions about things that have happened in your marriage that you haven't spoken about..could you handle that ? I don't really think you are thinking straight.. I know!!! That's exactly what I was thinking, my goodness taking a lie detector test there is no end to all the weird questions he might want answered, and who in their right mind needs to know THAT much about what the other person is thinking? Would it stop at, "are you cheating now, and have you cheated on me since....?" or would it dwindle into all kinds of perverse questions about how she thinks/feels...c'mon no one has the right to know THAT much about another human being affair or no affair.
hardcase Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 That doesn't sound like the case here, however. So my question for HC/SC is - what would be enough, at this point, to quell your anger? You know she can't take it back, so that's out. What could she do to re-earn your kindness, if not your trust? Is that even possible, at this point? (I recognize that it might not be.) What would it take? For me to know she is done with all that crap and that she loves me and wants me and only me for the rest of her life. The only way I am going to know that is through a LDT. I cannot just take her word for it. I have taken her word for it and trusted her thoughout all these years...and look where it has gotten me. And I guess the second half of this is - what has she done to improve things with you? Nothing really. She just tries to be nice and avoids any talk of what she has done. And really, i don't want to talk about it because it makes me angry. And when we it does come up, I have to leave the room and do something else or I will get steamed. We know a lot about what she hasn't done, of course. But would you share with us whatever you can about what improvements she has made About the only one is sticking to the ground rule that she no longer goes partying with her friends...but she is not liking that. And the fact she is not liking that shows me that its breaking her ass to keep away from the clubs. If she loves me and wants to keep the family together...she shouldn't think twice about giving that up. Either she is a wife and a mother...or she's a college floosy. She can't be both.
hardcase Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 And once married, her behaviour was going out with girl friends, staying out too late and getting her friends to cover for her. . Oh and BTW...those "friends" of hers are no longer allowed in our house.
hardcase Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 That's my point though, SM. It's NOT just a piece of paper or a ceremony to me. It's a sacrament. This isn't just a matter of religious belief, although that plays a part. It's also a matter of personal philosophy, where 'marriage' is also sacred. Yes, it is sacred...I completely agree. So when she was at the alter looking at me like her heart was mine, it was a lie...the vows were a lie...so the marriage was a lie. Nothing "sacred" about that.
hardcase Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 Are you a psychiatrist? Wow. You don't know me or my situation. If you and I had met in person and had a conversation without you knowing you were really talking to me you'd have a different opinion. That I assure you. New and exciting had nothing to do with why I had an affair. Low self esteem doesn't have anything to do with it either. Sorry to disappoint you on that. But since you mentioned self esteem I didn't say you had low self-esteem...go back and read it again.
Trialbyfire Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 Don't twist my words around, as IF I would call you abuser because you got into a fight. I called you abuser because you take special pleasure in seeing your W get insecure about why you work out so much and the fact that it turned into a fight instead of shutting out her insecurities makes me believe you take special pleasure in making her feel uneasy. No matter how you slice it, if you love someone you should try to reassure them if they have doubts, isn't that what you expect from her? If she does things to make you feel insecure then she is also abusing you, but the post was about you and what gives you pleasure. THAT added on to your general angry attitude....you are in a place of resistance in general terms. Why must he be the saint and accommodate her needs first when she's the one that cheated and hasn't bothered to accommodate his needs? Talk about unrealistic expectations of someone.
hardcase Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 I have to agree with this.. He has already vowed to spend every last penny of his fighting for physical custody of his kids to make sure she doesn't have custody. Nice try...its not so that she simply does not have custody. I shouldn't be denied the joy of my children on a daily basis because of what she did.
Tomcat33 Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 No, it's not. 8 months isn't that long when the other person isn't willing to give you what you need to get rid of your anger and more importantly, regain a modicum of trust. The anger is to block the pain and softer emotions. Been there, done that. First of all 8 months IS a long time to be stagnent and feeling the same if not MORE anger than he did when he found out. I don't se how you could argue that, considering he is staying in his marriage for the "well being of the children" what good does it do the children to have an angry parent that shows little love towards mother (I am assuming there isn't a whole lof of affection going on here) No one is saying in 8 months he should be over the whole thing. I am saying that 8 months is a long time to be in the exact same place if not worse off. Secondly, I beg to differ that SHE is responsible for making his anger go away. HE is responsible for how he handles his own emotions SHE isn't. Of course she can do things to ease his head and she should out of love for him, if she is not doing them, then there is no way he will work on making his own anger go away, but do we know that for a fact that she is doing NOTHING? What because she won't take a lie detector test? We own our own emotions it's that basic, and it appears there is very little communication going on in that rel. so if they cannot even share what their unmet needs are it's no wonder they will stagnate. Also, what if she is trying and he is so stuck in his own angry feelings he won't let her in? the thread he started here IS called THE BEST REVENGE on a cheating spouse, if you are tuck in getting revenge you are out to cause pain, there is nothing more to analyse as far as I'm concerned
hardcase Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 We don't really know if he trusts her or not.. because he vents here.. We don't know anything about his marriage.. good or bad other than what he is willing to talk about.. So really none of us.. me included can't tell if 8 months is long enough to heal or not long enough.. by his own admission he said his real life is totally different than he posts about on LS.. He might have already reached the softer emotions you spoke of.. he might have already gotten rid of all his anger.. His marriage may actually be great for all we know.. he may fully trust her and they might not be heading toward divorce.. BINGO...and if things improve and I am not angry at home..I will still vent a little here. I will still advise others that are not married yet to not give someone who cheated on them a 2nd chance. Other people might have the luxury of knowing their SO cheated before they got married. So my advice would be, get out while the getting is good...because it gets much more complicated once you are married and have kids.
Art_Critic Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 So when she was at the alter looking at me like her heart was mine, it was a lie...the vows were a lie...so the marriage was a lie. Nothing "sacred" about that. You need to get over that.. every couple ever married take vows and if they divorce as 54% of them do they essentially they break those vows.. It is neat that you are hung up on them.. I was too.. it kept me married longer than I should've been because I took them serious and exhausted every option before divorce. Today I sleep better because I can say that I took my vows seriously.. But in reality I had to let go of that romantic side of the whole marriage thing and think of my mental, physical health and my future happiness in order to finally get over it and start the divorce process
Ladyjane14 Posted May 16, 2007 Posted May 16, 2007 Why must he be the saint and accommodate her needs first when she's the one that cheated and hasn't bothered to accommodate his needs? Talk about unrealistic expectations of someone. Because her choices are beyond his control. He can only choose what he does. And whether it's to get a divorce or rebuild the marriage, he's got to give his own choices 100% commitment. If it's not what's in your heart... it's just lip-service. So as long as the negativity persists within him, it might as well be on his lips. It colors EVERYTHING.
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