whichwayisup Posted April 24, 2007 Posted April 24, 2007 I'm going to supply a thread for you, by Thumbingmyway. Maybe his situation can help you more than Dazed'n'Confused's did. All I can say about Thumbs, he made up his mind to do all that it would take to get past his wife's affair. Sure, he still has some rough days, but his positive attitude, faith and love rose above his own anger and resentment. I suggest that you seek some one on one counselling so you can cope better with your anger, and work through those mental images that are preventing you from moving onto the next stage of recovery. That and marriage counselling with your wife should help too. (Did she ever go to counselling on her own? If not, it might be a good idea because she needs to learn to control herself and NOT put herself IN situations that lead her to cheat on you and betray your whole family.) Here's Thumbs threads... http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t57894/ This one might be one below for you to read today, the other one above is long. (But still read it! It can only help) http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t81376/ and this one too http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t61627/ Hope this helps.
Trimmer Posted April 24, 2007 Posted April 24, 2007 Sheba, I see you deleted your post, and I couldn't delete mine in time... I'm assuming you read back (Post #8) and saw that it was Salacious_Crumb who described waiting on his wife, not Wibble?
Trialbyfire Posted April 24, 2007 Posted April 24, 2007 Just to be clear, Salicious, I did NOT find out about the first "fling" until the affair 15 years later was spiralling to a grisly conclusion. I walked out in 1990 because I was being treated like dirt - had I had an inkling of what was really going on I would never have returned. I walked out in 2005 because I found out that something had happened in 1990. My reasons for returning are given previously. As for "keeping your guard up", to an extent I know what you mean. I think that there will always be an "Exit" door in my marriage from now on - something I would have found inconceivable 5 years ago. That doesn't mean that I won't give it my all, but it does mean that I now have the strength to leave if I feel I am being abused. If you can in any way, drag her kicking and screaming to MC, if you're dedicated to making this marriage work. Both of you should probably have IC as well. The anger will not go away until you let it go. That she doesn't appear to be remorseful, doesn't help at all. She can't continue to be made to feel guilty for the rest of your relationship though because that will probably turn into another episode of escapism, also known as an affair... You have to be willing to start anew. I'm currently mid-divorce proceedings. I do know myself well enough to know that I can't forgive to that level. I have to be able to respect and trust the person I'm in a committed relationship with. Once that trust and respect have been broken to the extent that it was, starting anew is impossible for me. Each person is an adult, therefore responsible for their portion of the relationship. I am not prepared to be anyone's mother or keeper, constantly watching my back.
smartgirl Posted April 24, 2007 Posted April 24, 2007 Look back at Trimmer's first post - he knows whereof he speaks. If you don't get counseling, you are just corking up a whole ton of s**t. Too bad if she doesn't want to go - you have to make it a condition of reconciling and mean it!! If we had gotten counseling after my H's EA 20 years ago - the real one wouldn't have happened two years ago. You should not have to bear the burden of getting over this by yourself. She must do this for you -- it is the very least she can do for the incredible level of betrayal. If she won't go to counseling, I don't see how she could be serious about reconciling.
Sup Posted April 24, 2007 Posted April 24, 2007 Wibble,first of all this woman is a serial cheater, she will NEVER stop. She WILL cheat again. Do you still have the video? I suggest that you contact a Lawyer, and find out about your rights. Ask about the Video and see if you can use it. Go for sole custody of the children, the house, etc. Find out what you can do in your state. If your wife will NOT go to counseling, there is NOTHING to save, there is NOTHING you can do. Lastly, you are NOT to blame for ANY of this, your WIFE is! DIVORCE THIS CHIC!
Sup Posted April 24, 2007 Posted April 24, 2007 Have you ever thought of getting your children DNA tested? In some states, if they're not yours, you can sue for fraud, like I said, contact a Lawyer!
IfWishesWereHorses Posted April 24, 2007 Posted April 24, 2007 Wibble, I respect you for considering your marriage, and your children above your own feelings right now. I completely understand the personal choice to make sure that you have done everything possible to salvage the marriage. There is no fire, you can always walk away if your best attempts are unsuccessful. As for MC, my H went, did us no good as he was unwilling to give up his phillandering ways. I filed for divorce, he asked, me back and to have the lawyer draw up a reconcilliation and continued with his indiscrepancies, which he also claimed was doing "nothing wrong". I bought and read every book I could get my hands on, talked til HE was blue in the face, but the logic was lost. He said one thing, did another. You can lead a horse to water... Do what you can, you have nothing to loose, and your peace of mind to gain. Good luck to you.
mental_traveller Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 Will I “get better” and live happily ever after? Or is it just another thing I am going to have to learn to cope with? I'm not sure why it matters?? You are thinking in terms of consequences. That is the classic mentality of a man who has been beaten-down by life. Why not think about honour, pride, self-respect? You need to get your life back, set goals worthy of yourself, rather than hoping for the oh-so-great outcome (heavy sarcasm here) of not getting quite so annoyed at your cheating wife. Really I don't think you'll ever get the images and feelings totally out of your mind. And why should you? In many parts of the world, and throughout most of history, her behaviour would have had her tarred and feathered or even stoned to death. In this modern age, the least you can do is maintain a bit of dignity by kicking her ass out the door. It's not like it was a one-off or a drunken mistake which she fessed up to. This was systematic lying, deceit, betrayal of your marriage vows, your trust, your children's future. What kind of bitch does that? To repeat - there is nothing honourable or desireable about accepting the status of cuckolded chump. You have kids so it's more complex, but there are plenty of single parents out there and many live happy lives, and eventually meet someone who *doesn't* feel the need to go round bed-hopping and ruining their childrens lives just for a quick thrill. You should be thinking how best to ream her sorry ass in divorce proceedings, and how to tattoo the other guy's face with your fist, not how to roll over and take even more years of ridicule and contempt from your unfaithful spouse. Get out and kick her ass into touch.
mental_traveller Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 My greatest worry is that I will make (another) compromise to keep the peace, keep the family together and appear an all round forgiving guy. In the future I will then either,a) persaude myself I am happy, get fully committed and get hurt all over again, or,b) let the anger and resentment fester inside until the marriage falls apart through apathy and neglect. Option c, that I re-discover a happy and fulfilling relationship with my wife, seems further away than ever. A or B is most likely if you stick with her. Why not choose option d - get rid of her? It seems as though deep down you know this marriage is royally shafted, beyond repair. Stand up for yourself for once, stop being Mr Nice Guy and instead put your own needs first. Tell her to get lost, use the evidence in the divorce/custody battle, then wipe the slate clean and move on with life.
JustBreathe Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 It has been 5 years for me and I still feel like I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing staying with him. I still have those bouts of anger. I still trigger when I get in bed with him. Our marriage has suffered a great deal, and I am not even sure sometimes if I even love him anymore. We are polarized usually, but there are bits and pieces of our old relationship which surface now and then. Yes. I think if you can't rid yourself of the anger, then it definitely damages the relationship beyond repair as that anger keeps you from being happy with your spouse so how can you repair your relationship? I have been in IC for a couple of years and it has not really helped. Just helped me to deal with it without getting so angry that I'm out of control, get drunk, do abusive things like call him names, etc. Anger kills the love. That I do believe. It kills the intimacy and the connection between you and your spouse. I can offer you no advice, I'm sorry, only consolation and reassurance that your feelings are normal all things considered. You aren't crazy. You are deeply deeply hurt. What you feel is sorrow. I hope it helps a little that I tell you with complete honesty that I know exactly how you feel. I wonder what my husband did also as I believe I was never told the complete truth, just like you. I know he lied. I know the OW lied when I asked her point blank. They both lied and I hate that. He also never told me about what he did with the prosties he saw for years and years. Very vague details. Maybe that's it. You can't heal because she lied so much and by her not coming clean with it all, she is still in effect lying in a way. I guess that's how I feel alot of times. I can't trust him anymore to tell me the truth and that hurts so much. He never told me the complete truth and that makes me feel he is a dishonest man. It offends me on every level. Even after his therapy and all the changes and improvements he has made in his life, I just can't let it go.
justice Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 I'm sorry you went through this. My h had an affair also. We tried to work past it, went to counceling and did everything but for me the anger never stopped, even now that we are divorced, I still struggle with it from time to time, especially if I see or hear from him. For some of us it does stop and it does get better with time. But like your wife, my h never came completely clean and when he did it was only to blame the other woman and make himself look better. I think it may be an individual choice. I'm still darn angry, but I'm getting better. He is no longer in my life and I don't have to worry that he's ever going to lie to me again. He ruined everything that was good in our five year marriage by lying, cheating and gaslighting me, the woman he was supposed to love, honor and cherish forever. yeah, see the anger is still there. I wish you much luck and I hope you do make it, but for me the good memories that I had with my now ex husband are tarnished forever by the deeds he and the ow committed against me and our marriage.
Trimmer Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 ...contact a Lawyer, and find out about your rights. Ask about the Video and see if you can use it. Go for sole custody of the children, the house, etc. Stand up for yourself for once, stop being Mr Nice Guy and instead put your own needs first. Tell her to get lost, use the evidence in the divorce/custody battle, then wipe the slate clean and move on with life. I'm all for putting your own needs first and standing up for yourself, and I would support you 100% if you decided to divorce, but I have to stand against the whole "go for sole custody and stick it to her" attitude. The goal of minimizing the overall damage to your children should take priority over the goal of "getting your pound of flesh and making her pay." It's just that simple. If you really think that more damage would be caused, developmentally, with her IN their lives than OUT (like if she's an irresponsible drug user or something) then by all means, protect your kids. But you might want to check with a child therapist before you go removing their mother from their lives for revenge. And don't try to tell me otherwise; vengeance is what lies beneath these two quotes. In the end, IF you do decide to split up, your lives will still be inextricably linked by the fact that you will remain partners in the parenting of your children. Your own emotional health will depend on your ability to move on and grieve the loss of "her" your spouse while still being able to work in some positive fashion with "her" your childrens' parent. My wife cheated once, then left me for another man, but as far as I'm concerned, that character doesn't exist any more. There's no way I want the mother of my children removed from their lives, nor do I want them living in cr*ppy fashion while they are with her, just so I can pound my chest and grunt and claim revenge. My wife is gone, I don't need to get a pound of flesh any more. The mother of my children lives on, and frankly, given the circumstances, we both do a decent job. Tell me that's not dignity. Don't use the children as a weapon.
hurting_in_nw Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 Trimmer-- Aren't you worried about the lessons your children may learn from such a selfish person? Things like loyalty, commitment, honor, selflessness? How will they learn those lessons from her given her behavior? I would imagine they will learn to be selfish if they model themselves after her. My wife just left me for another man too...and the more I learn about her past, the more I realize she's just like her mother, and is repeating the exact same pattern. With that in mind, I question whether or not she is the best role model for our son. One needn't be an 'irresponsible drug user' to be a bad parent.
silktricks Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 Yes, you can eventually get past the blinding rage. It's been three years for me, and it's been quite sometime (over a year?) since I've gone through a period of rage. I can honestly say that I trust my husband again, not undiluted trust, but I don't know that I ever had that to begin with (as I had been cheated on by a previous husband and lied to unbelievably in a couple of other situations - I already have some pretty severe trust issues.) The warning signs in your particular relationship to me, however, is your wife's unwillingness to be open regarding all aspects the affair. Some questions you ask, you may eventually regret having the answers to, BUT, if she refuses to answer those questions, it probably feels like she's got special secrets with HIM that she refuses to share with YOU. Therefore, you feel (at least I would feel) like your relationship is not special - not sincere - and not close. The fact that your wife has not told you the truth about aspects of the affair is a HUGE warning sign. If she adamantly refuses counseling as well, it seems that you have some obstacles to overcome that you can't. Does your wife want reconciliation? Or is she more comfortable (as I believe you intimated) with you not there, so that she doesn't need to face her own culpability. However, as LJ said, when you choose to forgive, you need to make it your A game. Forgiveness is damned difficult at times. It's not fair to either of you or your children if forgiveness is an on again, off again thing. Anger is a normal reaction to betrayal. Extreme anger is a normal reaction to extreme betrayal. What got me past most of my anger was my husband's unswerving showing me that I was indeed what mattered. Our life together was what mattered. Your wife needs to show that to you. I would tell her (personally) that marriage counseling is not an option. It's a requirement. She will go to show you that she is committed to making your marriage a fulfilling relationship for both of you, or she will leave. Having children makes that much more difficult, but raising children in a household where the parents are unhappy and uncommitted to one another is much harder on them, I believe.
Sheba Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 Since my first husband was in irresponsible drug user, I want to weigh in on this issue. Despite that my ex was a terrible husband - lying and sneaking around and engaging in criminal activity - I felt he was still a loving parent. The children love their father and benefit a lot from feeling loved by him. He is not an addict, but uses illegal drugs like a lot of people use alcohol. So, I did not prevent him from seeing our children. I do have sole custody, but I have always let him see the kids on a regular basis. They spend weekends with him and go on holidays with him. I worried a bit, but not a lot as he initially lived with his parents, and then with a responsible woman. Now the kids are older and would be safe alone. I don't think infidelity is a basis for a court to refuse custody or access, anyway. The infidelity would have to harm the children in some way - for example, if she was having sex in front of the children. Otherwise, being unfaithful to your spouse would not be considered a sign of poor parenting. It is surely a sign of being a lousy spouse, however. I left my ex because I could tell that my anger and disdain was so pervasive that it would be evident to the children. I felt I deserved a different life, and that the kids deserved to see their dad without their view of him coloured by my disregard for him. So, Wibble, I would leave my spouse if I were in your shoes. I would never get over the betrayal - I know this about myself. But, I would try hard to do it with dignity, as Trimmer suggests. It is not an easy thing to end a marriage when there are children involved, but I guarantee it is worse for EVERYONE if the children are used as weapons in their parents' battles. Try hard to not let it hurt your children. Do not speak badly of their mother to the children, do your venting to your friends. Try to negotiate a shared custody plan so that your children get the benefit of feeling loved and cared for by both parents. You are obviously a dedicated family man, Wibble - make your family smaller by one - your wife - but leave the children's family intact.
Darth Vader Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 I'm all for putting your own needs first and standing up for yourself, and I would support you 100% if you decided to divorce, but I have to stand against the whole "go for sole custody and stick it to her" attitude. The goal of minimizing the overall damage to your children should take priority over the goal of "getting your pound of flesh and making her pay." It's just that simple. Don't use the children as a weapon. I understand what you are saying here, however, in some cases, If he doesn't she will, sooner or later. Don't use the children as a weapon, but, take the iniative to take care of yourself and the children at the same time to further separate them from the harmful influences, and or actions of their mother. Actions catch easily.
mental_traveller Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 I'm all for putting your own needs first and standing up for yourself, and I would support you 100% if you decided to divorce, but I have to stand against the whole "go for sole custody and stick it to her" attitude. The goal of minimizing the overall damage to your children should take priority over the goal of "getting your pound of flesh and making her pay." It's just that simple. If you really think that more damage would be caused, developmentally, with her IN their lives than OUT (like if she's an irresponsible drug user or something) then by all means, protect your kids. But you might want to check with a child therapist before you go removing their mother from their lives for revenge. And don't try to tell me otherwise; vengeance is what lies beneath these two quotes. In the end, IF you do decide to split up, your lives will still be inextricably linked by the fact that you will remain partners in the parenting of your children. Your own emotional health will depend on your ability to move on and grieve the loss of "her" your spouse while still being able to work in some positive fashion with "her" your childrens' parent. My wife cheated once, then left me for another man, but as far as I'm concerned, that character doesn't exist any more. There's no way I want the mother of my children removed from their lives, nor do I want them living in cr*ppy fashion while they are with her, just so I can pound my chest and grunt and claim revenge. My wife is gone, I don't need to get a pound of flesh any more. The mother of my children lives on, and frankly, given the circumstances, we both do a decent job. Tell me that's not dignity. Don't use the children as a weapon. But in the case the OP mentions, the mother is clearly dangerous to have around the kids - she's someone who lied outrageously for over a decade, happily exposed her husband to potentially fatal STDs, didn't give a damn about the future of the kids or the homewrecking her actions would cause. It wasn't a one-off moment of weakness, it was planned, cold calculating deceit. She can still visit the kids once she is divorced. Also, if the OP meets a new woman and gets into a LTR or marriage, the kids will get a decent step-mother instead of the crazy harridan/bunny boiler they currently have. In any case, single-parenthood is not a disaster in of itself.
Sheba Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 MT -I know that Wibble's wife treated him horribly. She lied, apparently without conscience. She left a sex tape lying around. I also read that she included the children in her outings with her lover - which is a little exceptional, I would say. Still, I am not convinced that her children are better off without her - in fact, I think it likely that they still need her as much as they always have needed her. She has not abandoned her children, she has abandoned her wedding vows. Wibble can judge if she is bad to the children, or just to him and he has not said she is a bad mother. The very fact he has considered trying to get past her infidelity suggests to me that she is NOT a bad mother.
Author Wibble Posted April 25, 2007 Author Posted April 25, 2007 Well what a diversity of opinions! Thank you to all for posting, I appreciate you taking the time to offer your advice and benefit of your experience. Broadly speaking you all fall into one of two categories. To those who say "Ditch the bitch" I would say that, as an option, it is a non-starter. In the UK divorce for adultery must be initiated within 6 months of discovery, after that time "ireconcileable differences" is the only path to go down. I found out about the affair 18 months ago. Also my work takes me away from home 12 - 14 days (and nights) per month, so getting custody is also a non-starter: additionally, it would create such a bad post-divorce relationship that the kids would really suffer. The fact is she is an excellent mother, not perfect, but very good. Her abilities as a spouse are the issue. The second school of thought is the "counselling or bust" thread. This too has complications. My wife tried counselling during her affair to try and stop her feelings for the OM (un-beknown to me of course). It failed and led to her setting out on the self-destructive course to discovery. She is also a graduate psychologist and a trained counsellor herself, so she knows all the therapies, all the tricks and all the techniques! Her disdain for counselling is, I am sure , based on her reluctance to open the Pandora's Box of her behaviour, but is justified by her knowledge of the subject. A bit of a Catch 22 for me, eh? Silktricks and LJ are closest to the mark. The process is slow and painful , and the outcome is far from certain. The quick fix, and short term satisfaction, of an immediate divorce does not sit comfortably with me. It negates 20 years of a relationship, and causes even more pain to the innocents in the middle of this mess. That is why I posted the original question - does the anger die away? The answer appears to be "maybe", but I have to want it to, and the only way to do that is to forgive.
Frances Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 Silktricks and LJ are closest to the mark. The process is slow and painful , and the outcome is far from certain. The quick fix, and short term satisfaction, of an immediate divorce does not sit comfortably with me. It negates 20 years of a relationship, and causes even more pain to the innocents in the middle of this mess. That is why I posted the original question - does the anger die away? The answer appears to be "maybe", but I have to want it to, and the only way to do that is to forgive. If you have some way of making the anger die let me know.
Author Wibble Posted April 25, 2007 Author Posted April 25, 2007 Frances, far be it from me to give advice, but my experience so far has been that time seems to have SOME effect on the frequency of the huge mood swings, but very little on the intensity. A year ago I was in a 3 day cycle - day one, felt good, day 2 thought, "what am I doing?", day 3 thought "this is all hopeles, she deserves everything she gets", day 4, back to day one. Now it is a monthly cycle, but when I get angry it is SO intense, I feel like packing my bags and leaving there and then. I then seem to wallow in anger for days, keeping my thoughts to myself, but being very taciturn and withdrawn. After anything up to 10 days something changes in me, nothing external seems to trigger it, and I begin to see the positives of my relationship, and regret my feelings of a few days before. These good feelings can last up to 3 weeks, but sometimes only 5-6 days, before a black mood settles over me once again. In my own case I thought it was because I spent so much time away from home. I get too much time in hotels, on my own, dwelling on my circumstances. Inevitably I start to feel all betrayed and hurt all over again, and this can trigger the cycle. I recognise now that it is a cycle, but to be honest, the negativity I experience during the "down" phase almost completely negates the positive feelings when I "recover". The whole thing seems to be intimately linked - you can't feel good unless you have truly forgiven, and you can't truly forgive unless you feel good. Even at the best of times my feelings about my wife as a partner are a pale shadow of what they were before I found out what she was truly capable of, but my feelings about the family we have created are very strong. I cannot bear the thought that I may be the person who has to turn their back on them. Life seems drained of all colour and vitality at the moment and probably will remain so until I can resolve it all to my own satisfaction. What an unholy mess.
Ladyjane14 Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 ...my work takes me away from home 12 - 14 days (and nights) per month.... ...In my own case I thought it was because I spent so much time away from home. I get too much time in hotels, on my own, dwelling on my circumstances. Inevitably I start to feel all betrayed and hurt all over again, and this can trigger the cycle.... It's a weird thing, but it seems to be common for betrayed spouses recovering after an infidelity to need comfort from the very person who hurt them. A betrayed spouse needs ALOT of reassurance... and the formerly wayward spouse is the one we go to in order to get it. In your case, you're traveling for work quite a bit, so she's not there with you to offer steady comfort. You're dealing with something even worse than what I ever had to... but in my case, even a few hours apart would be enough time for the anger to reemerge. I can't imagine dealing with physical separation for days at a time. It's no wonder that these absences are setting off these cycles. I've got to say, I'm quite frankly surprised that your wife is a trained counselor but is resistant to seeking therapy for the marriage. I can see how it might be an embarrassing situation for her... but her higher priority ought to be in helping YOU cope. This seems a bit like a medical doctor treating himself/herself. If you're sure you want to stay in this thing, and it sounds like you are... your best bet is probably going to be to attack the problem from both fronts. For her part, she needs to be offering you enough reassurance so that you feel like you're her number one priority. For your part, you're going to have to deal with your stinking thinker. Your "stinking thinker" is just that little voice inside your head. It helps to give 'him' his own persona and TALK to him. He's not your enemy... he's looking out for your best interests afterall. But... he's an insecure guy who thinks maybe you're a bit of a fool for staying in this thing. He thinks you're going to get your feelings hurt again. He thinks you're wasting your God-given time on someone who's unworthy of your love and affection. Your wife can't deal with him. No matter how much a FWS might sincerely WANT to correct the damage they've caused... they don't have access to their mate's "stinking thinker". This is something a betrayed spouse has to deal with for himself. So... the thing to do is to go ahead and debate him fair and square... and over the course of time. Rome wasn't built in a day, and you won't win this debate in a day either. Bear in mind though, if he can beat you in a fair fight... he might have the right of it. What I told my stinking thinker was this... 1. I am in charge of my choices. I have made this choice to reconcile the marriage and I'm going to honor my choice. 2. Trust is also a verb. I'm going to trust in an active way, and continue to do so unless my spouse gives me a valid REASON not to. 3. I will NOT live in fear. I've already proven my ability to survive a crisis. IF it should come to it... I'll survive it again. 4. I have nothing to lose that hasn't already been lost. The foundation has been destroyed. I can CHOOSE to do MY part in rebuilding it so that it's better and stronger than it was before. 5. I will take personal responsibility for my own happiness. It's not my spouses job to MAKE me happy. Each person has to find that quality in themselves. 6. I will prioritize my spouse's needs as if they were my own. And I will make him aware of my needs as well. 7. I will live by The Golden Rule and treat him with courtesy and understanding... as I, myself, wish to be treated. 8. I will not "pick him apart" looking for faults. He has them. So do I. We BOTH live in a 'glass house' and we BOTH want acceptance. 9. I will forgive him and 'clean the slate' in regards to ALL previous transgressions. And I will hold myself accountable for adhering to my choice. I will remind myself DAILY for as long as need be that I have already made this choice. 10. I will require the same forgiveness of my mate that I've given to him. And should he occasionally waiver on his commitment to MUTUAL forgiveness... I'll stand up for myself. 11. I will NOT avoid conflict. I will measure my needs carefully, taking whatever time necessary to assess them... and then I'll speak up. It's MY responsibility to get my needs met. My spouse is not a mind-reader. 12. There is NO COIN suitable for payment of this debt. There's no price that's fair exchange for PAIN. I will write this "debt" off. To do otherwise would leave me standing with my hand outstretched, awaiting payment that will NEVER come because the past cannot be changed. And so it goes.. etc. etc. etc. I had some REALLY long talks with my "stinking thinker". In terms of accountability, I hold myself to a higher standard than I expect from my partner because I can only control ME. I have my own integrity to manage, not anybody else's. So, he'll make his choices... and I'll make mine. As I said, I'm not going to live in fear. I'm not going to close myself off emotionally so that I don't have to take risks. ALL relationships come with risk. Even if I started out fresh with someone new... there's no guarantee it would be successful. In fact, the only guarantee anybody ever seems to have when it comes to relationships is that they WILL get their feelings hurt occasionally. Emotional intimacy is just too important in marriage to miss out on it. And we DO "miss out" if we live with our guard up all the time. I think there's a big difference in having one's "guard up" and losing one's naivete. This drama can NEVER be perpetuated on me again without me catching on. I've already seen 'the monster'. I'd be able to identify it in a skinny minute. So, I don't need to go looking for it. It can't hide from me now. Anyway... there's a good article at Marriagebuilders that can give you some food for thought on emotional intimacy. The gist of it is that you and your wife need to feel welcome in every room of one another's "house". You'll find it easily by typing into your browser "why women leave men, marriagebuilders" 1
Trimmer Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 Aren't you worried about the lessons your children may learn from such a selfish person? Things like loyalty, commitment, honor, selflessness? How will they learn those lessons from her given her behavior? I would imagine they will learn to be selfish if they model themselves after her. Yes, honestly, I did worry about that in my own life and I do in Wibble's case, too. But I realize that kids don't completely model themselves after a single role model - they don't become walking clones of one or the other parent. She may not be the best role model in those areas, however, we are talking here about a woman who Wibble has acknowledged is basically a good parent. I am saying: weigh the potential developmental damage caused by her continued existence in their lives as their mother (the "bad role model" argument) against the damage caused by removing her from their lives, which they will experience as a loss not a whole lot different from the death of a parent, not to mention the added tension and bad blood that would probably result from the "custody battle." Neither situation is the one ideal outcome we would all prefer, but given the options available, does the "role model" issue really outweigh the devastation wrought by the other option? You would have to convince me that the "bad role model" damage would be pretty extreme to outweigh such a loss. Again, I have a strong belief about this, but I'll admit I'm not an expert or trained in this area. If one were really considering this for noble reasons (i.e. the good of the child) then a consultation with a child psychologist would probably be a good idea. (And that doesn't mean a lawyer...) But in the case the OP mentions, the mother is clearly dangerous to have around the kids - she's someone who lied outrageously for over a decade, happily exposed her husband to potentially fatal STDs, didn't give a damn about the future of the kids or the homewrecking her actions would cause. It wasn't a one-off moment of weakness, it was planned, cold calculating deceit. She can still visit the kids once she is divorced. Also, if the OP meets a new woman and gets into a LTR or marriage, the kids will get a decent step-mother instead of the crazy harridan/bunny boiler they currently have. In any case, single-parenthood is not a disaster in of itself. I refer to my comments above... "clearly dangerous?" I don't think Wibble is saying this. Your characterization of her as a "crazy harridan/bunny boiler" doesn't do a lot for your credibility in speaking for the good of the children. Although your anger is clear (and perhaps well deserved,) your comments seem mostly focused on tearing her down as a spouse, not oriented to balancing and minimizing the damage to the children. I'm not defending her actions at all, or making a blanket statement about every case, but in my personal experience, as hard as it was initially to say, the actions of a cheating wife do not automatically preclude the ability to be a good mother, and it sounds - from Wibble's own comments -like that is true here. Personally, I am very glad for this in my case; it has been hard enough for my children to have their parents split, how much harder would it be for them to effectively lose one of us? ...additionally, it would create such a bad post-divorce relationship that the kids would really suffer. The fact is she is an excellent mother, not perfect, but very good. Her abilities as a spouse are the issue. I think this is very clear thinking, and your children will benefit from this clarity. Silktricks and LJ are closest to the mark. The process is slow and painful , and the outcome is far from certain. The quick fix, and short term satisfaction, of an immediate divorce does not sit comfortably with me. And really, unless you are planning a future life as "bitter revenge hate-the-world guy", the divorce brings no inherent satisfaction anyway... It's just one of the steps of one possible path to a recovery that takes a lot of work. In my own case I thought it was because I spent so much time away from home. I get too much time in hotels, on my own, dwelling on my circumstances. Inevitably I start to feel all betrayed and hurt all over again, and this can trigger the cycle. I recognise now that it is a cycle, but to be honest, the negativity I experience during the "down" phase almost completely negates the positive feelings when I "recover". Wow - I think being out on the road would mess with my head, too. I'm glad I wasn't on travel much during my "year of hell" as I'm sure that would have exacerbated my downswings, too... The whole thing seems to be intimately linked - you can't feel good unless you have truly forgiven, and you can't truly forgive unless you feel good. Maybe there's a slight modification of this that will help. Indeed, you can't fully recover unless you have truly forgiven, but maybe forgiveness isn't exactly what you are thinking. People talk about "closure" and "forgiveness" as single moments and we think we need to go out in search of that spot - that place, that instant - until we find it, and then we will be able to step over some line and things will suddenly be very different on the other side. What if forgiveness is the journey itself? And maybe you don't need to feel good to start on that journey, all you need is the faith that it is the path you want to take. Maybe you don't even need faith, maybe all you need to start out is to make that choice. Even at the best of times my feelings about my wife as a partner are a pale shadow of what they were before I found out what she was truly capable of, but my feelings about the family we have created are very strong. I cannot bear the thought that I may be the person who has to turn their back on them. Life seems drained of all colour and vitality at the moment and probably will remain so until I can resolve it all to my own satisfaction. What an unholy mess. You are in a dark place, looking around for the spot where everything will be OK again. You probably can't see it from here, but it's out there. It may be a different place than you used to know, it may take a while and some work to get there, but I promise you, it gets better than it is right now. Wibble, in spite of your wife's resistance in her own case, I strongly encourage you to check out some individual counseling, just for yourself. Don't even make this about trying to drag her in, get her approval, or anything like that. These first steps are for you. One of the very best outcomes of my initial counseling was to help acknowledge and explore my anger. And it wasn't about some counselling trick or technique - there's not a "how to release your anger" manual; for me it was just about going and unloading and sometimes sitting and sobbing for 10 minutes at a time. I really believe that if I hadn't found some way to do that, I would be in much worse shape today - probably that "bitter revenge guy" I talked about earlier. Look - man to man, husband to husband, father to father, listen to me -set aside your wife's feelings about counselling, etc. Try it out. Like the forgiveness that I talked about earlier, I believe it worked for me because I knew I needed something (like you know you want to do something about your anger) and I made a choice to start down a path, and I just opened myself to it and it really helped. I originally did it to make sure I could still be a good father to my kids, and it turns out that it catalyzed a process that helped me a lot personally as well. This is something positive that you can start on now, irrespective of your wife's cooperation or input, or any eventual decision you might make about your marriage.
Mz. Pixie Posted April 25, 2007 Posted April 25, 2007 My wife cheated once, then left me for another man, but as far as I'm concerned, that character doesn't exist any more. There's no way I want the mother of my children removed from their lives, nor do I want them living in cr*ppy fashion while they are with her, just so I can pound my chest and grunt and claim revenge. My wife is gone, I don't need to get a pound of flesh any more. The mother of my children lives on, and frankly, given the circumstances, we both do a decent job. Tell me that's not dignity. Don't use the children as a weapon. Trimmer, You've got such an awesome attitude and I applaud you for this.
Author Wibble Posted April 25, 2007 Author Posted April 25, 2007 Thats a long list, LJ! Basically what I find myself doing is arguing from first priciples WHY I have chosen to stay. You are right about the absences, however - when you are trying to sleep in a hotel room on the far side of the world, the family (that you are desperately trying to use as justification for staying with the cheating B) is almost like a fantasy. You think "If I didn't go home, would these (negative) feelings ever go away, and would the family notice that I was gone?" Crazy, really, but when, having failed to sleep, you DO fly home you are so tired and confused it almost seems to make sense. I like the analogy about "knowing" the monster. You are quite right. One of the frustrations about being betrayed is that your "gut" was probably telling you for a long time that things were not right, but you didn't listen to it. The knowledge that your instincts were correct is a consolation in the sense that you realise that you aren't mad, but makes you hyper-sensitive to any little "twitches" you may get. This simply increases your insecurity. Due to the absences (that have been a constant feature of our married life) emotional intimacy is very hard to achieve. Many of the major emotional events in our lives, (such as bereavements and serious illness) have happened whilst I was away, and unable to do much except offer words of support over the phone. Indeed, having been through so many events, I had kidded myself that we were over the worst that life could throw at us, and would survive anything from then on. How naive! It is a situation that is unlikely to change, and makes the "Trust" element of our marriage all the more important. This, in itself, makes me fearful for the future, because I don't want to spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder for the next betrayal.
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